aya or spice? everything nice?

[learnerdr]

Maybe Im just a noviec but after listening to Terrance McKenna a good bit, it seems like he is a little more interested in spice to puff than aya to drink, however a huge fan of aya, probably his fav thing to do before he died...ANyway, so I had a dream that I was making my own aya, some say I put too much MH in it 56g along with vine 115g (is vine just for aya and never for spice?) and I was interupted during the beginning stage of reducing in the oven so its still not yet reduced. Now Im wondering if I could change from brew to spice...at this point...dont know if its possible or ok or perhaps its a bad idea and I should just follow thru as is with a nice powerful brew. Sounds like spice doesnt last as long but is just as powerful an experience and no puking etc. Am I correct in this assumption? I hope someone can help me bc I really look forward to partaking soon for my first cherry popping and I cant wait!! So, Im just wondering about these things and searching the archives isnt working for answers so here I am asking the Aya Gods themselves...Is spice usually made with only MH and no vine? Could I just pick up some lye and naptha at this point and turn to spice and everything's nice? Thanks so much! I love this site!

[rocketman]

I would keep heading in the direction you are going. I use over 100g of vine every dose. I also cook it seperately from the leaf or mhrb. This is a perfect example of why.

We never know the potency of materials unless we, or someone we trust tries them first. Most of the recipes tell you use under 100g of vine, which to me is just wrong. The main reasons for dud brews ime is improper maoi. Some say, well if you didnt trip then mama aya still gave you what you needed. I think this, with all due respect is positive human created false dogmatic bullshit. If you make the brew strong enough you will trip. I do however find that lower doses are healing, but the reasons I use are scientific rather than religious.

Using mhrb is cheaper for brews than leaf, but mhrb is also more likely to make it harder to judge because of the potential high ceiling. I recommend leaf for brews and jurema for extraction.

You can make extracted spice and use an maoi for pharmahuasca, and thats fine. I personally would not go throught the expense and work for 56g of mhrb.

If I were in your situation, I would make another seperate batch of vine only brew, at around 50g grams.

I would drink half of each to start. This would give you around 100g of vine and 23g of mhrb. If you feel something in an hour I would wait and see where it took me. If you feel you need more, drink only the mhrb brew. When you begin to feel the brew, this is an indication of proper maoi. I would think going this route is safer than drinking your entire mixed brew. The extra vine wont hurt, but the high dose of mhrb might be overwhelming for a beginner.

[Shadowlord]

And in your response to your vine queries;
The vine is an MAOI. YOu don't use an MAOI to extract the DMT.
However it ( MAOI ) keeps the MAO's in your body from destroying the DMT molecules. That's why it has to be taken to make DMT work Orally.
It is also used to extend the experience while smoking.
SO you can extract or smoke w/o an MAOI but you need an MAOI to make an Aya type drink or to make your smoked doses stronger and longer.
Be sure to do a lot more reading b/4 doing any dreaming.
There is a lot of things the D or Aya can show you and they are great routes to take but they can be rough on the inexperienced.
How many times have you done other hallucinogens?
I'd like you to find a lifelong ally, not take something and have it be so strong and weird that you decide psychedelics aren't for you.
Have you expereicened SHrooms, LSD or any of the more common hallucinogens b/4? I can't remember from your previous thread.
Just take it slow, there is all kinds of time and tons of stuff to learn/experience here!

[learnerdr]

Ok, thanks so much. Its nice to have some advice from experience, which is always our best teacher..So its not enough MH to justify the work for spice? Better to just drink it in stages (2?) later sounds like. BTW my brew is already mixed and reduced only slightly so I'd have to reduce it further to drink it and its too late to sep the MH from the vine at this point but I'll drink only half since Im a lowly beginner, hehe, Im so excited! I just still cant figure out the difference between spice and aya brew besides spice being more work, less puking, much less time of experience, and brew being more time, less work, more puking. Is that about right? Expience is relatively equal? Once again thanks so much friend. Your help is much appreciated!

[learnerdr]

Ive done a lot of shrooms, very little LSD but enough to know a bit about the exp, I want to make a lifelong ally too, thanks for helping with that, I know its a bit turbulent for a newby so I want to be careful also. Thankyou for explaining. I guess it takes afew times before I get it sometimes. That explains why only dmt containing plants are used for spice and why some also combine vine or rue to enhance the xperience. Can you point me in a direction for reading info you suggest before dreaming, Im all for learning more before dreaming and after too! Im excited but I can be cautious for a bit more time to gather more info. Youre right plenty of time not to rush and rushing never helps anything. Wish my wife could understand that. Thanks!!

[Shadowlord]

Aya will be a longer experience that you will be able to take more away from.
It will last much longer and be more like a Mushroom trip is what I have heard. I have not drank Aya yet myself but have read a lot and talked to those who have.
Now as for smoking it, it is quick,powerful and quickly over. That's where DMT gets it's nickname the Business Man's Special. You can trip your balls off for 10-30 mins and thenbe done w/ it, whereas LSD, Mesc etc, you need to plan a whole day around it and usually want the next day off to rest and digest the experience.
The overall feel is probably vastly different as well. You may want to smoke some just to see what DMT is like b/4 you commit yourself to drinking Aya of unkonwn potency ( since you don't know how it will react w/ you and it being brewed so strongly )
BUt if it is already brewed up, just take it slow and see how it goes. SPlit the brew into several doses and make sure you have sitter if you go big or several people are partaking. Want to have someone sober around as Aya frequently makes people think they are dying as ego-death is a common occurrence w/ DMT. DOn't want to be calling ambulance over to your house. That's how these substances get controlled.

[Shadowlord]

Originally Posted by learnerdr

Ive done a lot of shrooms, very little LSD but enough to know a bit about the exp, I want to make a lifelong ally too, thanks for helping with that, I know its a bit turbulent for a newby so I want to be careful also. Thankyou for explaining. I guess it takes afew times before I get it sometimes. That explains why only dmt containing plants are used for spice and why some also combine vine or rue to enhance the xperience. Can you point me in a direction for reading info you suggest before dreaming, Im all for learning more before dreaming and after too! Im excited but I can be cautious for a bit more time to gather more info. Youre right plenty of time not to rush and rushing never helps anything. Wish my wife could understand that. Thanks!!

CHeck the Vaults here for all kinds of info on DMT. From extracting to brewing. I read all the DMT extraction teks 1st. Nomans,Loochpooch's,Marsofold's,Lazyman's. Get familiar and decide if you want to do an STB or A/B extraction.
For Aya there are all kinds of variables as well. What DMT herb to use, how to prepare it. MHRB causes lots of purging so many use Chaliponga or Chacruna ( Diplopterys or P. Viridis ) for brewing. This can also be mixed w/ jello to catch a lot of sediment and reduce Nausea etc even further.

If you need even more info ( though I doubt you will need more info than can be found here at good old 'Topia )
There is also the DMT Nexus for DMT info and Ayahuasca.com for Aya INfo.
All you could ask for in brewing from various plants and various methods etc.

[bbd2]

rocketman is an xpert on botanicals
his advice has been very reliable

[Shadowlord]

Originally Posted by bbd2

rocketman is an xpert on botanicals
his advice has been very reliable

I agree.

[cuts]

I too vouch for rocketman, he has done nothing but help me. I also agree with shadowlord, you may want to test dmt out by smoking some before you try aya.

[learnerdr]

Thanks bretheren. I'll let you know how it goes. Peace.

[learnerdr]

Thanks man. I drank half of it (115g vine plus 56g MH) since I originally planned for 2, 1 is still left and its a slightly bigger amount to drink. It was nice, slightly akin to mush trip but more enjoyable. I felt like a pleasant hum and vibration all over my body and peace, nice peace. I planned mentaly for the loss of the ego, something I looked forward to, so I think that helped a great deal, because there was no dying, but this could also be attributed to my lack of experience in making it, storing it, etc, but it was nice to explore a little way into the rabbit hole, and tonight my friend I hope to dive in head first for a deep exploration. Lookin forward to it, plus got some more to prepare later.

[learnerdr]

THanks again for your guidance. Its like youre my shaman, but I guess we all have to learn to be our own shaman eventually huh? ANyway, it seems to me like all these careful measurements come into question when you look at the shaman in peru just throwing in a armfull of vine and a few handfulls of leaves (no acid/ vinegar/ lemon juice) and boiling it awhile (all night?), then drinking it amongst the group. Its interesting that we try to do it by our measurement standards and to not lose the potency, it may be effective, but the difference in prep is stark to say the least. I dont have a scale and still dont think I need one, just eyeballing it like the shaman. Until I hurt myself anyway...hehe.

[learnerdr]

OK, so tonight SWIM will partake in a huge amount of aya. SWIM tried the first 1/3 after using 115g vine and 56g MH last week and found it calming and relaxing, vibrating and peaceful. Swim cant wait to try the other 2/3 tonight after watching some positive utube vids about removing the ego from one's life. This is why I believe DMT/ aya carry such powers, due to their interference with the pathological ego. If one can eliminate the ego, eliminate time and mine (thats my little verbage), then all thats left is peacefulness. When theres no wanting or futile needs, theres no fear those needs may not be met - thats all fear is- the idea that one's needs may not be met...but if there are no needs, if we can remember that at least for this moment all is well, then there is no fear and if we also eliminate time by remembering that there is only one ongoing now and not only past and future which occupies our minds completely. Have you ever stopped to realize how much of our thinking is dedicated to past conditioning and future anxiety? Its usually a constant stream of compulsive thoughts about past or future and never one moment dedicated to now, when it should be mostly dedicated to now and rarely dedicated to past and future. Past and future is how the mind tricks us into never being present enough to regain control over our ego that just wants and wants while our true selves- the spirit connected to everything and separate from nothing lay dormant in the background. The spirit within should be driving this ship not the pathological ego and realizing the go is pathological is quite free-ing in itself. Realizing oneness is also liberating. When eliminating time and mine all thats left is just peace and well being and it feels great. SWIM is excited can you tell? - & Will report.

[LotRev]

Congrats on a successful brew! I bet when you kick it up a notch
it will really show you what it has.

Please do be careful when dosing highly, an MAOI is no joke.
Especially if you are considering MAOI and smoking DMT.

The brew is a fantastic journey, and the smoke is INTENSE....
just don't be confused - as stated before, they are very different.

The brew, as you've seen, is a slow onset into an ocean of life.
The smoke, as you will see, is absolutely the most out of this world,
blow your mind, kick you in the ass experience around (unless you're
one of those messing with this newer "jungle spice" - which is apparently
much, much stronger)

Mushroom and LSD experience is a great lead-in to this stuff,
but trust me, you want to be ready when you breakthrough
the curtain of DMT. Keep reading, keep learning, keep experiencing,
and keep telling us about it!

ps. McKenna gets bashed occasionally around -and that's fine,
but I would just like to say that you are learning from the man
if you are learning from McKenna...my humble opinion of course.
If you want/need any of his material, there are torrents chocked
full of Terence McKenna - and if that's not your deal, I will gladly
PM you some links to his audio/video files and ebooks etc.

[learnerdr]

Thanks bro, I would love you to PM me some more McKenna. I feel the same way about him. He's the man..smart, wise, caring, down to earth, explorer, psychonaut, discoverer..I wish he hadnt died yet. Anyway, thanks, if you have some more McKenna I'll check it out happily. And I'll let you know how my deeper exploration into aya- land goes. Hope I can keep enjoying it for awhile!

[learnerdr]

Okay, so SWIM finally enjoyed his aya. He said it was quite a long night of wave after wave of intensity, something about a grasshopper kept bouncing around. I didnt really get the answers I wanted but it was definately an interesting experience. Just to make it even more interesting, my wife decided to play a trick on me and told me she was pregnant again with no insurance right at the beginning. I tried to assume she was joking but wasnt sure. That part was bad so I gave it zero attention but it still lingered in the back of my mind. Then after a long night of wavy ins and outs and the grasshopper she continued in the morning taking the joke way too far. I left the house for work this morning just as she confessed to lying about the whole elaborate pregnancy story but honestly, taking a joke like that too far (and this is after we almost divorced a hundred times and somehow reconcilled slightly for valentines day and her birthday the following week) seems to have some lasting effects under these circumstances. Just the thought, just the JOKE of her being pregnant again after the hell we've gone through in our short year and a half marriage and a baby probably too soon and all her mental problems is begining to seem like far too dangerous a place for me to be, its something I dont want to be within a thousand miles of allowing.. I think my aya lesson is clear. No more babies with this crazy woman I married at all cost. Beyond that, it was nice. I definately got my ass royally kicked, then punched in the balls a few times, then kicked in the head, and finally put out of my misery. Whew. Cant wait to do it again without the false pregnancy part.

[LotRev]

Ha, well that would certainly shake me up a bit!

I'm glad you seem to have come out on the other side ok,
even if you had a heavy trip with the baby and all.

How would you rate it on the strength scale?

[learnerdr]

kicked my ass, at one point I was telling my cat I loved him for being there for me, damn that cat is cool, hung out with me the whole time, I'd have to put it up there as my strongest longest ethnobotanical experience ever. That was the cool thing, it would chill out for awhile and then it would come back just as strong, then it would give you a break, and you'd know its coming back so you'd brace yourself and bam, its back..on and on, so who is this grasshopper? I dont know, maybe the aya Goddess or something, at least thats what I thought, and something about more fun visuals when closing the eyes. I guess it subsides a little when you open the eyes so next time I think total darkness (if possible) like Mckenna said would be best. Once I was in the dark in the bathroom and it felt like there were other people or entities with me and I was moving around them as I was moving through the bathroom. Maybe if it was dark the whole time I might have made contact. Next time. I loved it!! Thanks!! If it werent for you guys, I would've felt less guided, less sure of myself, it really helped alot to have learned first and read alot and talked with you guys!

[steeq]

Man, I'm glad to hear you had a good experience even after she pulled that on you; that was a messed up thing to do when you're going into a first aya session. EDIT: sorry, I don't mean any disrespect by this comment

I've read through your whole thread and you are on the right path man just keep trying for that peace. That's what psychedelics are about for me, reading through your posts I can relate to what you are searching for. Maybe the answers you were searching for did come but you weren't ready to accept them yet. I find the next day is when I can start computing what has been experienced so take some time today and think about the experience and try to make sense of it. Its nice when you don't have a lot going on the day after a trip so you can do this.

[learnerdr]

Thanks alot bro! Its an adventure right?

[learnerdr]

Seems like a touchy topic, difference between aya and spice..still feel like some people pass right over the aya experience and never even know the grasshopper. Maybe spice is better, definately sounds easier on the body, but I feel like I should graduate to it, like I should be patient, the grasshopper still has some things to teach me..and the bad part isnt really bad, its a learning experience, and it leaves you at the bottom of a trampoline about to launch yourself upwards..it reminds me of the question of duality- good and bad are just 2 sides of the same coin, joy and sadness are both needed to experience the other, eventually to find peace in that which transcends all duality- ONENESS, home at last in oneness. Aya diminshes the ego, and that my friends, we all need a dose of from time to time. Its liberating to remember in this moment no matter what, that you need nothing, that all is well, to indulge in NOW, forget about past and future, no time, no mine, and just BE at peace. SWIM is jonesin for another batch soon. mmm

[LotRev]

Just do so when you think you are ready.

DMT is wacky, and if you are in a total learning mode, it might not do the trick.

It's referred to as a "flash" because it comes and goes before you ever
knew it was there. It takes many journeys to be able to hold in even
a portion of the visions and information.

Your ayahuasca journey is likely a much more personal trip with time
to focus your thoughts and energies on one question, or one answer, or one idea.

If you think DMT sounds like your thing, then get to work in the kitchen,
but when you come back here and start noticing all the warnings of preparation and you've had that experience, then you might be in my chair
telling someone else to make sure they are ready for it.

[learnerdr]

Cool brother, I know..seems like you guys are like the gatekeepers, preparing us rookies if were ready and not if were not, always careful for those who are not ready..I like that. Although I have some work to do befoe Im in your chair. THere are those wise people like you who offer us helpful advice and needed advice, and were lucky youre here willing to help...as an old elder whose been through the gauntlet preparing his grandkids or the next generation...Im not there yet but looking forward to the journey! You describe it well, makes me picture it as too much too fast to hold onto much of it, but still helpful and pleasant, feeding the soul. THanks again bro!

[LotRev]

Thank you, I appreciate the kind words.

Don't forget someone else might tell you to jump right in, opinions I suppose.

The shit gets me man, it hits me hard...but some of these guys can go IV
several times a day with it - really, I can't even imagine that.

I'm reading the Rick Stassman book: DMT the Spirit Molecule for the first time
right now, but honestly I don't think it would have helped me to grasp what
the experience is. I enjoy seeing the same archetypes revealed in other
people as they are in myself, and reading about experiences, but really
it hasn't grabbed me in any significant way yet (I'm not done!).
I do so enjoy McKenna though, even if it is wacky, it's got charisma!

[learnerdr]

Im going in again....this time instead of MH, it will be 28g chaliponga with 100g vine. I want to use lemon juice this time instead of vinegar too. It seems like there's a growing experience with aya.. I definately look forward to more, maybe this time my wife can lay off the "were pregnant again!" tricks. UGH. I hope to communicate with the grasshopper this time if possible or look for the boa or the bird...gotta keep my eyes closed more or stay in a dark room too...dont want to miss anything.