Quick question about general organic chemistry

[Thre365ive]

Is sodium bicarbonate strong enough to break a bond with mescaline & citric acid? I've got some very dirty mescaline citrate in solution I'd like to clean up, and if I could just do it with bicarb, that'd be awesome. If not, then how about sodium carbonate? Any other easy-to-obtain bases that'll break it? Basically, I can't get lye locally (that I know of) and don't want to order it right now.

[kcmoxtractor]

Easiest strong base to get locally would be calcium hydroxide. Pretty cheap to. They sell sodium carbonate at Lowes, 7.50ish for a bottle. A salt usually breaks apart in water into its positive and negative charged ions.

[Thre365ive]

That's good to know, but it doesn't really answer my quesiton.

Here's some more info that I can only marginally understand to help.

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

pKa of sodium bicarbonate: 10.3 (shouldn't that be pKb?)

pKa of citric acid: pKa 1 =3.15
pKa 2 =4.77
pKa 3 =6.40

pKb of sodium carbonate: 3.67

Why citric acid has 3 pKa listings, I couldn't tell you.

[KungFoo C]

It has 3 pKa values because it's a Polyprotic Acid an acid which can donate multiple protons. Each pKa is for each successive proton to be removed.

You want to clean it with sodium carb? What are method are you trying to use?

Sodium Carb is a decent base, so if you are trying to do a A/B cleanup on your mesc citrate, then yes it should work. My chemistry theory knowledge is by no means what it should be. But, if you have a pH indicator, then you could basify the solution with Na2CO3, defat it, then re-salt it. I also don't have much experience with cacti extractions (I don't know if your impurities will get removed with a A/B cleanup), so if someone with some xp could input 2 cents that would be helpful.

Also, if I were you (and I was in a country where it was legal) I would salt it with HCl... it is easy to get and there are TONs of teks and methods for salting to get a pretty clean product.

Hope this helps.

[Thre365ive]

Originally Posted by KungFoo C

It has 3 pKa values because it's a Polyprotic Acid an acid which can donate multiple protons. Each pKa is for each successive proton to be removed.

Didn't know that. Thanks.

You want to clean it with sodium carb? What are method are you trying to use?

I was planning on running an a/b on it with bicarb, xylene and probably vinegar. A little birdie gave me some calcium hydroxide and some d-limonene last night, though, so I'm using that, and salting it out with vinegar, then carbonated water.

Sodium Carb is a decent base, so if you are trying to do a A/B cleanup on your mesc citrate, then yes it should work. My chemistry theory knowledge is by no means what it should be. But, if you have a pH indicator, then you could basify the solution with Na2CO3, defat it, then re-salt it. I also don't have much experience with cacti extractions (I don't know if your impurities will get removed with a A/B cleanup), so if someone with some xp could input 2 cents that would be helpful.

That was pretty much the plan, but no need now.

Also, if I were you (and I was in a country where it was legal) I would salt it with HCl... it is easy to get and there are TONs of teks and methods for salting to get a pretty clean product.

Hope this helps.

I'd prefer the acetate, really. I've worked with mesc HCl before, and it just doesn't do what I want it to. If I were working on a bigger scale, I'd probably use it. I'd just gas it out.

Thanks for the help, though.

[KungFoo C]

No problem. Ya I gassed it out when I did it, worked like a charm.

If you don't mind let me know how it goes with d-limonene, I'm curious.