Antibacterial SOAP Grain Soak Experiment

[Bobcat]

So did you guys hear about anna nicoles baby? I guess the dad is....

Sorry. This is AWESOME!!!! Great work/idea rev, it'll really help people and their dry weights out! Happy to be part of your congregation, Rev!

[Nabby]

Yes, I as well was making the association for the sake of mushroom organic vs. chemical growing. The part about rooting and cloning plants was in there because I copied the information about and recipe for willow water straight from another site. The intent being that people could use it as an organic alternative in this experiment, and the related plant-oriented responses reaffirmed the already known positive effects of the chemical in question. The suggestion that it might be used for cannabis as well was just a passing thought. Props to the Rev for the initial idea, and spacecowboy for the possibility of an organic alternative.

[reverend trips]

Still going strong
From left to right-
rye jar inoculated with spore syringe, rye jar inoculated with an lc , and the popcorn jar inoculated with an lc .

I can't get over how fast the popcorn is colonizing. I hear everyone saying how fast it is, but I guess I just had to see for myself. I may have to convert

So far so good, but I will not call it a success until I'm sampling fruits. I'll spawn the original fully colonized rye jar to a small ziplock style straw grow. I should get the time sometime this weekend.

Thanks again everyone!

[Nabby]

So I wonder if the Salicylic Acid remains active with keeping out contamination after the cleansing, or is just a pre-sterilization agent? I may have to take this idea a step further and inoculate a couple jars, and leave one open to the air to see how long it takes to contaminate, or if the myc can overgrow the whole jar before infection. If this does in fact make a huge impact, this could open up a whole new world of ease for G2G transfers.

[reverend trips]

This seems to be effective with bacteria. Not fungi. I would expect you would see green if you were to leave the jar open.

[TVCasualty]

Hip, I wasn't talking to spacecowboy, I was referring to the emerging discussion of the hopes and dreams of aspiring gardeners, not the mere mention of aspirin or it's various antibacterial-related uses. My unusually indirect and apologetic wording indicate my hesitancy to say anything in the first place, but being a "Mod" means I'm expected to "do" things, and I thought occasional gentle etiquette reminders was one (as mods have previously reminded me). In other words, I thought I was doing it right. Also, in the future I'll be specific so as to avoid ambiguity about the subject.

spacecowboy: your comment was, imo, totally on topic and kept the pace of thread. No worries, bro!

It's comforting to know that this and all other replies related to my comment can be edited or even plucked and deleted from the thread if it's selected for ar/chiving, especially since my comment has strayed the thread further off-topic than the reply that prompted mine! "Helping out" is funny that way sometimes, and why I don't barge in yelling and lecturing (helps me show less of my ass if I must show it at all).

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Anyhow, here's a free association for y'all: incorporating activated charcoal in the process somewhere. It's also anti-bacterial, but doesn't kill so much as trap the bacteria. Somehow combined with Lazlo's salt tek or using grains without a PC (with or without antibacterial soap) or stopping/slowing trich outbreaks on a casing charcoal can probably be a tool in the box or help these other tools work even better. Mycelium is a network and therefore not subject to being held in micro-pores of charcoal whereas single-celled bacteria are single-celled and will be adsorbed and held.

Charcoal and zeolite can be used in reverse, to bring stuff into something as well as remove stuff from it; saturating zeolite or charcoal powder w/ antibacterial soap might distribute it more evenly through the grain or even act as a time-release mechanism for sustained effectiveness.

Then there was the blurb I read about lab tests showing nanoparticles killing bacterial colonies on petri dishes. They were afraid that buckyballs and nanotubes might be harmful particles, but tests in real soil showed no inhibition of soil bacteria. In vitro, nanoparticles might have an antibacterial role. Here's info about one type designed to kill bacteria (magnesium oxide particles):

The nanoparticles have an opposite electrical charge from bacteria. Opposites attract, an unfortunate reality for the bacteria, as the bacteria and nanoparticles are drawn together when they are close.

The nanoparticles have other properties that help it kill bacteria. Their surface has sharp edges that penetrate tough outer shells, such as the one that protects anthrax spores. Anthrax has historically been difficult to kill, because the shell protects it from the environment.

The nanoparticles are bases, not acids. Basic chemicals, such as lye soap, soften the exterior of bacteria. The nanoparticles also "oxidize" bacteria, meaning they damage them by chemically stealing away electrons. Chlorine, which is used to treat water, does the same thing, only less effectively than the nanoparticles.

from http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0814070458.htm

Wow this is rather exciting!

I read ages ago an article about aspirin and how it works in the body. Mysterious stuff, the one thing do I remember is that the aspirin enters the blood stream after being converted back into salicylic acid for which it was derived.

I wonder if aspirin would work. The lubricant properties of the soap may be too advantageous.

A related compound is potassium benzoate. It is used a food preservative against molds and certain bacteria. It have some of that stuff and sodium salicylate too, both are used to make whistling fireworks. I have had nothing but dismal failures with popcorn maybe this would take the art of handling out of the process. The potassium and sodium salts of these acids are water soluble. Potassium benzoate feels soapy.

As for the organic aspect, all of these compounds can be found in nature. They can also be synthesized and to such a high degree of purity to make the difference between them and natural to be all in ones mind.

If the salicylic acid hasn't been decomposed it would still be there to do its antibacterial thing.

I wonder if adding a small amount to water used for misting might make the casing more robust to contams?

Aspirin can be made soluble in water by dropping a tablet in a glass of water with some baking soda in it. Its fizzies time. Makes Sodium AcetoSalicylate.
BTW, the aceto group (vinegar) is tagged on to make the compound less acidic and easier to swallow.

[beebopboy]

But we dont know if it'll cause any mutations in the fruits.

We will see...

Awesome experiment
This is why i call 'topia home.

[reverend trips]

But we dont know if it'll cause any mutations in the fruits.

Well I'm pretty optimistic that they will be fine.

I dunked a small straw nugget in soapy water the other day and I'm seing normal looking fruits. I will post pics on that tomorrow.

I love how this has sparked many ideas.

You guys rock!

[chimp]

Very nice Rev! I've been watchin this thread since its beginning.

Interesting, very interesting.

[shroomatt]

I'm wondering about the other 99.95% inert ingredients and any effects they may have. Some may break down at temps higher than 220 and might leave some residues.

[mushit]

Jeezus. Great thread, Rev.

If no one else takes on the WBS I will break it out. I have a few prints of B+ that I can devote to this and WBS is cheap here.

Do you mind if I post my findings on this thread Rev?

[reverend trips]

That would be great Mushit.

[doinitagain]

i will be trying this out with popcorn this week just gotta get the right soap, mine has triclosan(palmolive)

[golly]

Well Rev , I'm liking your experiment...Along similar lines - i mixed a drop of anti bacterial soap with some peroxide in a jar and then dropped in a
young shroom for future cloning..
Let it sit for a few hours B4 splitting open and extracting some interior tissue.
I'm hoping this may help the overall cleanliness of the transfer...

Thanx for the great idea...Even plain soap may be an effective combination with heat fer beat'n up em' buggers...

[squidink]

Hey Rev, what brand of liquid soap are you using?

It might be useful to compile a list of brands that use salicylic acid as opposed to triclosan, to save folks time in the future (which is happening NOW).

Great experiment! Let's hope your fruits aren't bubble-shaped and soapy tasting. hehe

[reverend trips]

Golly that is a really good idea!
I tried putting a few drops in an lc , pc'd it and when it cooled I put in some tissue. It is growing really slowly. I was going to try it again with a smaller amount, but I like your idea, that would work much better I would expect.
squidink-
Attachment 49297Attachment 49299

[loochypooch]

Very nice Rev! Do you think it is the acid leading to your success or some other ingredient? If its just the acid, would adding Citric acid, or even HCL to the water work? It would be nice not to have the bubbles I suspect hehe.

[~Hippie3]

i just noticed as i was bathing
that my wife's Avon acne skin wash
has 2% salicylic acid , remainder inert.
rather pricey though.

[reverend trips]

Very nice Rev! Do you think it is the acid leading to your success or some other ingredient?

I'm not sure. I assumed it would be the antibacterial properties of the Salicylic Acid, but now Golly has me wondering if it might just be the soap.

It would be nice not to have the bubbles I suspect hehe

I like the bubbles.

i just noticed as i was bathing
that my wife's Avon acne skin wash
has 2% salicylic acid , remainder inert.
rather pricey though.

Ya, my wife has a couple skin care products with the stuff.

$1.87 for 750 mills at Wallmart in my town.

Attachment 49413

I picked up some bulk wbs. Put it in water and scooped out anything that floated. I soaked in soapy water for a day, strained and steamed for an hour and a half. Inoculated tonight with an lc .

Attachment 49414

Here is a straw nugget that was dunked overnight last week sometime in soapy water. Fruits look just fine.

Attachment 49415

I havn't got around to spawning the first jar yet. The rest are almost fully colonized, so I'm just going to do it all at once. I'm lazy like that.

[jack080247]

Very interesting idea. So if I understand it,there should be very little or no contaminates. Good luck and let us know your results. Peace,jack

[Nabby]

A few of those fruits look strangely bulbous below the caps.

[reverend trips]

Verticillium.

The fruits from the first flush had it too.

[TVCasualty]

I assumed it would be the antibacterial properties of the Salicylic Acid, but now Golly has me wondering if it might just be the soap.

That comment reminded me of how I began using regular Dawn dishsoap to clean off my WBS after simmering since it gets so slimy, mainly due to the cracked corn. I started this when I was using 100% cracked corn (which makes a lot of slime). I put the grain (still hot from simmering) into a milk crate lined with window screen, pour some soap on it, and hit it with the full blast of my garden hose, stirring it up until the slimy stuff is gone. I then mix in a few other things, put in jars, and PC for 90 minutes.

Before the soap treatment, I dealt with much more contamination, sometimes losing an entire batch of jars or bags. With the soap, contamination rates are down to usually zero (barring the occasional dirty syringe) and PC times, HEPA filter, and strain were identical.

Hard to say if it was the antibacterial action of the soap (which was not "antibacterial" per se), or the removal of the slime that encourages anaerobic conditions, or a bit of both. Seems to me that intact grain would be clean on the inside in the same way that the inner tissue of mushrooms is usually clean (clean enough to clone), and so most of the battle against bacteria takes place on the outer surface of the grain, where the soap is very effective. A side-by-side antibacterial vs. regular dishsoap comparison seems in order.

I predict, when using soap and steam but no PC, that the contamination rate will be directly proportional to the number of broken grains in the bag (and/or its age) before soaking. Fresh, clean, intact grain is probably much more important for success when not using a PC.

[shadowechos]

Rev Trips Thanks for this innovative science experiment

Originally Posted by reverend trips

I'm not sure. I assumed it would be the antibacterial properties of the Salicylic Acid, but now Golly has me wondering if it might just be the soap.

Sounds like the start for even more experiments, aspirin, vs. soap alone; maybe garlic, maybe a vinegar soak...before simmering......DMSO in combination...

My mind is ahead of the results...I look forward to your photos of the fruits...

[reverend trips]

Well my wbs failed

I'm not familiar with preparing wbs and see now that it needs to be rinsed. It isn't clean like rye or popcorn and if it isn't rinsed it is covered in a slimey residue. I should have rinsed it a fresh bowl of soapy water after the soak.

or the removal of the slime that encourages anaerobic conditions,

I think that is why this failed.

Attachment 49644

There is something growing in there that don't look like healthy myc to me


Rye and popcorn are perfect and ready to be spawned.

[golly]

Is that cracked corn in the WBS...cause i think there's a whole different set of rules for using that stuff...
I'de go for the millet based feed for ease of preparation...

[reverend trips]

Hehe ya, there is cracked corn, whole corn, some pelletized stuff that expanded and dissolved, millet, all kinds of seeds...I just scooped some shit out of a bulk bin at the co-op that said wild bird seed.

I guess I used the wrong stuff eh

Shit

[shadowechos]

Originally Posted by reverend trips

Rye and popcorn are perfect and ready to be spawned.

"It ain't over till the fat lady sings" ....it's amazing enough IMO that there is still a possibility for this to work. ...wonder how they will taste or

[reverend trips]

I predict they won't taste very good at all

[Actiontec]

What strain are they?

[reverend trips]

They are just plain old button mushrooms and I would hate to bore you guys with that.

Luckly I have this friend of a friend who has had identical results with as many quart jars of South American. I was informed that he has chopped some straw and tomorrow will be pasteurizing everything. He plans on making a strawlog the way I would make one. He promised to keep me updated on the grow and I will be happy to share it with you guys.

Good Luck foaf !

[reverend trips]

foaf is getting things rolling along.

Attachment 49880

He made a strawlog with 6 of the rye jars inoculated with an lc .

Attachment 49881

He made a small straw nug with the popcorn jar just to be safe, and another small straw nug with the rye jar inoculated with spores so he can try and get another nice SA clone.

Attachment 49882

He is glad to report that all jars passed the smell test and is looking forward to sharing this grow with you guys

[Freaky]

Right On Rev.!!!!!

I love watching your friends experiment and work!

Can't wait to see the fruits!

Have you (sorry, your firend) tried differing amounts of the soap? Or is the same amount always used?

[reverend trips]

Thanks freaky

Not really, only the large batch of rye was measured, the popcorn was just a good squirt in the pot it was simmered in. We won't even talk about the wbs lol. I figure most of it gets drained out, so as long as there is enough to coat the grains it should work ok. I'll keep using the amount I have been cause it seems to work for me.

[pinkpuma]

Might you ask your friend how the fruits from the dunked nugget tasted and how the effects were? stupendous work brother, your efforts are appreciated to no lengths end. cheers!

[Freaky]

Thanks Rev. Gotta stick with whats been workin'!

This has been a great thread, and hopefully I'll get to try it out sometime in the future.

[reverend trips]

Might you ask your friend how the fruits from the dunked nugget tasted and how the effects were?

Will do.

This has been a great thread

This thread is only in it's infancy If all goes well with my foaf's grow he will be looking to see just how many jars he can fit into a 55 gallon drum to be steamed over burner. Summer is comming ya know

[pinkpuma]

i love having something to look forward to!

[jimbojones]

Someone I know is doing some PF jars this weekend (gonna experiment with dark rye flour and home made millet flour). Also gonna try the asparin/willow water with some H2O2 and coffe. This thread is a cliff hanger!

Long live the order of mad scientist!!!!

Good luck jimbojones. I hope you are successful, then you will be a happy scientist! I really hope this works because I have had mostly failure with grains. I hope you measure out amounts so that it can be repeated.

[FlyvAgaric]

Hey Rev-Trips. I just want to say that i have seen some of your FOAF's Logs.. and i am very impressed. Your teks have been a tremendous help to me.
Soon my Oyster mushrooms will be taking off ! hehe.
This is a good idea Rev.. with the Soap. Good thinking here.

Anyway. i would really like to see how those Jars come out. the Rye and popcorn. I have a popcorn Jar going right now,an just saw the first signs of mycelium in there today. Wish me luck !

[reverend trips]

Good luck with the popcorn Fly, and thanks!

Myc is transfering to the straw as it should.

Attachment 50011Attachment 50012

Sure is moist in that log, eh? Foaf thinks he may have to poke a few more holes in that thing.

Next up:

Prepared some more rye the same way. He wants to see if the steam alone will work with this process, so he put some half pint jars in the bottom of the pot and the standoff plate on top so the jars would be elevated off the water. The rocker will be left off and he is going to steam for 2 hours. He wants to make sure they don't have to be submerge in the boiling water before he goes and tries something stupid later on...

Attachment 50013

[golly]

i think the steam should work Rev..As long as it's steady...

The log looks great to me but i guess a few more holes could help..

I use a red hot pin, held with pliers - can make a ton o' holes in a flash ,that don't close up...

[reverend trips]

I figure it should be ok too, Golly. I just want to make sure.

Thanks for the tip with the hot needle

[malefacter]

forgive me if this is off topic but has anyone tried this on agar?
or should i say in?

[reverend trips]

I personally have not, but I'd advise to use a small amount if you were to try it. I found it slowed down an lc I did considerably with a couple drops in a half pint.

[the_chosen_one]

most impressive

never been a big fan of soap techniques, but this seems quite simple. i'm glad to see the clergy having luck with it, even before it's completely dialed in. that's a good sign of things to come!

too bad it slows the lc. agar would probably have the same results, but it would sure be interesting to see. a slower agar culture may be acceptable if it were more contam free.

[reverend trips]

never been a big fan of soap techniques

TCO, I'd like to hear what soap techniques you've tried and why you aren't a fan of them. Is it because they didn't work for you, or do you have another reason for not liking it? What kind of soap have you tried?

Adding that kind of info to this thread would be much appreciated.

Thanks!