1st DMT attempt [vovin's]

[DJTetsu]

Well for the ease of understanding the instructions, I'm thinking of doing the straight to base tek:

http://forums.mycotopia.net/showthread.php?t=18449 (Short, Quick, Simple Spice Tek using Quart Jars)

I think I've got most of the stuff... My first question is how fine is good enough when preparing the MHRB? The thread mentions a cup of finely shredded MHRB so... a little bit more than these pics good ?

[CoyoteMesc]

I like it where its mostly dust and fibers.
Yours still has large pieces of root in there,
so yeah, a bit more. Don't worry about larger
pieces of fiber, just the harder, chunky, root pieces.
One of the most important things is the ph when you start the soak.

never mind about the ph I guess, that tek doesn't require it...

[reverend trips]

That should be fine with the straight to base tek. The lye water will break down those bigger chunks within a couple of hours.

Good luck!

[doobydoobydoo]

Originally Posted by CoyoteMesc

I like it where its mostly dust and fibers.
Yours still has large pieces of root in there,
so yeah, a bit more. Don't worry about larger
pieces of fiber, just the harder, chunky, root pieces.
One of the most important things is the ph when you start the soak.

never mind about the ph I guess, that tek doesn't require it...

What should the PH be when starting a soak? I've just been cooking it up in regular water for 45-60min then straining. The last time I dropped the PH somewhat using some PH adjusting stuff to see though. After this I bring the PH way back up and then the naphtha pulls. I wasn't aware there was a good target ph range for that initial cook... in fact, someone told me NOT to use any vinegar the first time cuz the bark itself would alter the ph enough and it would take a lot more lye...

so, what should that soaking PH be, and for how long?

[CoyoteMesc]

I use this tek and modify it just a tad, to make it more feasible for me..

[Doctor D]

Wow, that is nicely written CM. Mycotopia needs a copy of that!

[CoyoteMesc]

Ok, Like this...

[doobydoobydoo]

Originally Posted by CoyoteMesc

I use this tek and modify it just a tad, to make it more feasible for me..

wow, they seem to defat it b4 going basic in that tek... interesting...

[doobydoobydoo]

Wow, so what I learned from that CM is that the naphtha won't pull the dmt out until the solution is basic. If it's still acidic it will pull fats/oils out... a defatting process. Then basify, and pull out the dmt with the naphtha then. Very interesting.

Also, it mentions that heat destroys the dmt... I didn't know this and was nearly boiling my bark brew up when making it... Going to have to try to keep this lower now...


Good link CM. Thanks!

[CoyoteMesc]

yeah, I read the thing like 5 times before I tried it and still had a copy on a table when I did it, I also had Marsfold's tek open too...kinda put em together in a way...good stuff for sure. I'm glad yall like it.
Thats why I feel that the ph is so important. Many researches has suggested that the number one failure is ph problems, and I believe he states in that write up.

[doobydoobydoo]

Originally Posted by CoyoteMesc

yeah, I read the thing like 5 times before I tried it and still had a copy on a table when I did it, I also had Marsfold's tek open too...kinda put em together in a way...good stuff for sure. I'm glad yall like it.
Thats why I feel that the ph is so important. Many researches has suggested that the number one failure is ph problems, and I believe he states in that write up.

DJ, sorry for hopping all over your thread


So, do you do that defatting step on it b4 doing basification and the naphtha pulls also?

[CoyoteMesc]

yeah, its sorda two extrations.
If your goin to defat you have to
do it before you basifiy it. after you basified it
dmt will leave and follow the naptha

[doobydoobydoo]

Originally Posted by CoyoteMesc

yeah, its sorda two extrations.
If your goin to defat you have to
do it before you basifiy it. after you basified it
dmt will leave and follow the naptha

So if the brew is acidic, the naphtha will leave the DMT and pull out oils and fats. After you make it basic, it will pull out the DMT especially, and some oils and fats as we already know. But if you get those out first... cleaner basic pulls of the DMT! Dats awesome.


I'm gonna try a defat next time and hopefully it should make my lil batch less oily from the start. Again, awesome info.

DJ, you best be studying this lol

[CoyoteMesc]

Im glad you dig the tek DDD,
but I'm not the chemist here just
a random web surfer that found that info
Marsfold and this Vovin guy in my opinion
could have good conversation. As for
you and I....we're students..lol
cool class eh?
Keep us posted DJ

[white_rabbit3]

Originally Posted by CoyoteMesc

Vovin guy in my opinion
could have good conversation. As for
you and I....we're students..lol
cool class eh?
Keep us posted DJ

I myself am happie as just a fly on the wall

[CoyoteMesc]

...sweet!

[DJTetsu]

Haha no prob and thanks guys. Now I'm debating to do the marsfold's tek or the staright to base tek. Stb sounds easy.. Too easy? Should I not be so lazy and try atleat be looking into the ph., and not to mention boiing/heating up some stuff (marsfold tek)?

[reverend trips]

Marsfold's tek is a good one and will get you cleaner spice than the straight to base tek. The straight to base tek is a good one too, but your spice will probably need some extra steps to clean it up after. Either way, it's fun stuff to mess around with.

[cap]

Originally Posted by Doctor D

Wow, that is nicely written CM. Mycotopia needs a copy of that!

its already in the archives. thanks for the pdf tho cm. archive material > dmt vaults

[DJTetsu]

Some pics on my first day.

1) Then things I'm using, lye, naphtha, a quart jar, distilled water, measuring cup, turkey baster, and ofcourse, a cup of MHRB

*go to the top of this thread for the link to the written directions of the tek

2) 2 cups of distilled water and 3 tablespoons of lye, stirred inside the quart jar

3) Started to put in the grinded powdered MHRB, and I'm eyeing for big chunks which I chop up with scissors.

4) Pouring the rest

5) Wicked ale! Stir, then close lid, shake violently.. is what it says...

[DJTetsu]

I re-read the thread, and says I can add naphtha in the same day.

I'll go with 200ml.

Then let it sit overnight, shaking every now and then.

[DJTetsu]

Did i let it sit too long?

The clear syphonable area seems to have diminished.

[Doctor D]

Originally Posted by DJTetsu

Did i let it sit too long?

The clear syphonable area seems to have diminished.

Add more lye. I had a hard time getting separation when I extracted using straight to base. I had to add at least twice the lye called for, and use low crockpot heat as well to get quick separation.

I postulate that perhaps the solids in the mixture hinder separation?

[doobydoobydoo]

Originally Posted by DJTetsu

Did i let it sit too long?

The clear syphonable area seems to have diminished.

Nope, that's about how it gets. The longer you let it sit though, the more oils it tends to pull out. Notice how yellow...

You want to siphon that off now, being carefull not to get any of that crap and gunk or the lower layer. Then, add more naphtha, and do it again trying to pull out more spice.

[Doctor D]

Originally Posted by doobydoobydoo

Nope, that's about how it gets. The longer you let it sit though, the more oils it tends to pull out. Notice how yellow...

You want to siphon that off now, being carefull not to get any of that crap and gunk or the lower layer. Then, add more naphtha, and do it again trying to pull out more spice.

So Doob are you saying that you "lost" a lot of naptha to the gunk layer too? And just didn't worry about it?

[DJTetsu]

Well I added 3 tablespoons of lye in there and that seems to have helped separating.

My stuff is very yellow ! Is this bad ?

Do I just let this sit infront of a fan ?

I've added 200ml of nahptha for the sec pull. Now, precisely how many hours should I let it sit in there before syphoning?

[Doctor D]

Mine was yellow, too. The first pull still dried waxy, though and was definitely smokable. It's good enough for a taste, for sure. There are many methods for cleaning up the spice; the activated charcoal one seems to be a favorite (I didn't have much luck with it though). You pretty much have to have filter paper though to use the carbon, otherwise you'll get fine superfine bits of carbon particulate throughout your spice.

You can siphon off the second pull as soon as it has separated. How long is it taking to separate, btw?

Do you have a hot plate or electric skillet? I found one of those, set on low, to be very helpful in helping evaporate the naphtha. Do it outside, of course. And try not to breathe the crap in! It'll make you foggy-headed pretty quickly. An OSHA certified 3M gas mask is very handy as well. You can pick one up at the big box home improvement stores. (Try not to let the neighbours see you wearing that one, it looks funny )

[doobydoobydoo]

Originally Posted by Doctor D

So Doob are you saying that you "lost" a lot of naptha to the gunk layer too? And just didn't worry about it?

I'm not sure if any was "lost" to it. It's just another layer... I think that's the oils and fats and tannins and things that forms between the naphtha up top and the mhrb brew below. The jars when I defatted have that oil and gunk at the bottom still, naphtha up top. Also, some have a bit of the mhrb solution below that too. I also noticed that after defatting this layer was minimal when I went to do the spice pulls from it compared to when I had not done any defatting. And, I saw that if you have any sort of bark particles in there, that layer of oils and things is gonna be larger/thicker.

[doobydoobydoo]

Originally Posted by DJTetsu

Well I added 3 tablespoons of lye in there and that seems to have helped separating.

My stuff is very yellow ! Is this bad ?

Do I just let this sit infront of a fan ?

I've added 200ml of nahptha for the sec pull. Now, precisely how many hours should I let it sit in there before syphoning?

OMG, that's a lot of naptha... dats what happens with those quart jars... How much did you use the first pull?


Yeah, just let it sit in front of a fan, but be warned, near the end, move it away from the fan as I have seen precious spice blow away as it forms up and the fan blows it off into space.


Yellow not bad, just means it's a bit oily/greasy.


The PH really makes a big difference. The more basic it is, the faster things seperate. The same goes for defatting, you want that stuff nice and acidic so it seperates faster AND does not pull out any spice. The spice will get pulled in the basic end of things as you are doing here.

Did you test the PH at all? (btw, if you use a meter, make sure to clean it right away good, that bark brew makes one hell of a mess and almost ruined one of my meters somehow cuz we did not clean it, oh, and it stains clothes )

[Doctor D]

Ah, see I never saw a 3rd layer. I would just have the black layer with the solids in it, and then the solvent layer on top. After first mixing in the naphtha, say 100ml, it would take a long time for that 100ml to find its way to the top. Sometimes it wouldn't, it just stayed hidden in the solution.

Has anyone ever mentioned anything about the bark itself affecting the pH of the solution?

[doobydoobydoo]

Originally Posted by Doctor D

Ah, see I never saw a 3rd layer. I would just have the black layer with the solids in it, and then the solvent layer on top. After first mixing in the naphtha, say 100ml, it would take a long time for that 100ml to find its way to the top. Sometimes it wouldn't, it just stayed hidden in the solution.
Has anyone ever mentioned anything about the bark itself affecting the pH of the solution?

Straining method I think makes a difference with those oils and fats from the bark itself too. I've just been using one of those metal strainers you get at Wally Mart... the holes are not super fine, so some particles get through. I'm going to improve my straining methods next batch and see what happens. When working with some of this stuff near the end I had to filter it through an old t-shirt, which worked, but that mhrb stuff really clogs up the shirt quick... After you press it out though, it forms this nice lil soild mass of bark. lol Tis really cool. I wish it was hash! hah

How did you guys strain your mhrb solution? Well, DJ didn't, right? Did you?

[doobydoobydoo]

You also might want to put that in a better flatter dish... gonna be a lil tricky to scrape that dish really well. When you evap, usually, not always why I lost it with the fan, usually, it forms up and sticks nicely to the dish. So you need to scrape it off with a razor or some sorta scraping thing.

[DJTetsu]

Yellower than my piss after taking vitamin pills.

Some burning questions:

I think doing the lye + MHRB and then also adding the nahptha the same day.. I don't think.. was a good idea. I probably should of have let the lye and MHRB do its thing for a day.

Second, how long u let the nahptha sit with it is pretty important.. I'm guessing. Any instructions saying simply saying let it sit over night is inadequate, since you could be working on it in the morning or late at night. A precise hour figures will be helpful. The longer you wait, the more yellow you end up with.

I've had 2nd and 3rd pulls and I didn't let it sit overnight.. but rather after a few hours. I think it needs 6 or so hours atleast with each pouring of nahptha. They are in a sep. container but don't seem to be doing too well.

No, no straining. Is that right after you let the lye and the MHRB sit for a while? YOu just take out big chunks of bark as much as possible ?

I had a PH meter around here somewhere. Should of have used it.



Your experiences Pleeez ?

[doobydoobydoo]

OMG, super super oily... dat looks like my first batch/attempt hehehe

After playing around with this a bit, I've learned a few things and seen a few things. As I said in chat, still working on my own tek sorta. Learning as I go with what helps with what.

What sorta bark do you have left? Any? What did you start with?

[doobydoobydoo]

Ok, I know I caught you in chat the other night and we discussed some things related to this...

What are your plans now?

[DJTetsu]

Thanks dooby, for showing that you care

Ok, some things we've discussed in chat on how to maybe improve on this tek... well my take anyway:

The main one being, well it's too damn yellow. And we know that when the naphtha sits with the jar too long this happens, so I'm going to shorten the duration. You suggested only a couple of hours... but I'm not sure if that's too short. Maybe I can eye it as it gets too yellow. If the duration is too short, maybe we'll be missing out on some DMT?

Straining it through a t-shirt after the lye digesting on the MHRB will be a most likely addition I would do. With the original marsfold tek, the first thing they do is get rid of the chunks of MHRB barks. I think lye or the naphtha will continue to chew on it drawing out oils.

Another reason for the straining is that I found out a separatory funnel is the most efficient way of separating the clear naphtha part of the solution (and you need it strained to use a sep funnel). I don't know how some ppl were able to use a turkey baster (useless!). A syringe worked fairly well, but the angle of the tip of the needle will inhibit you from drawing out 100% of the clear solution.

And for this pic.... I kinda guessed that it may want to be cooled (sorta like the freeze precip tek) but anyway I just put it in refrig (in a container) and it seems to chunked together better, not to mention showing some crystal patterns. I'm not sure if they will stay this way if dropped to room temps. Does anyone know if you can store DMT in the refrig?

[Doctor D]

Originally Posted by DJTetsu

You suggested only a couple of hours... but I'm not sure if that's too short. Maybe I can eye it as it gets too yellow. If the duration is too short, maybe we'll be missing out on some DMT?

It was my impression that you could separate the solvent layer as soon as it has separated. You stir or shake like hell in order to get as much of the DMT pulled out of the solution. Once the layers have separated, the solvent isn't doing any more work, except for perhaps on the surface of the NAOH solution. There cannot be a whole lot of reaction going on here chemically once the layers have separated. (Sorry for the ultra-technical jargon, I'm not a chemistry major)

Originally Posted by DJTetsu

Straining it through a t-shirt after the lye digesting on the MHRB will be a most likely addition I would do.

Why strain through a shirt after you've added the lye? That sounds pretty scary to me! Every time I've strained through a t-shirt I've had spills. I'd hate to have a lye spill. Wouldn't it make more sense to simmer the DMT out into plain DH20, strain, and then add lye? (Donor?? Where are ya?)

Originally Posted by DJTetsu

I don't know how some ppl were able to use a turkey baster (useless!). A syringe worked fairly well, but the angle of the tip of the needle will inhibit you from drawing out 100% of the clear solution.

Worthless is right! I agree 100% on the separatory funnel. Everything else is an exercise in futility. I'm surprised you got a syringe to work; mine stopped working after 2 or 3 sucks.
P.S. Have you tried your product yet?

[carpet face]

after i add the naptha and shake violently .i then let it seperate .once its about finished seperating then i shake again and wait again .one more time [takin aproximately 25 to 35 minfor all 3 shakes and seperations.] then pour off napths for evap ,also adding a fresh batch to the jar for second pull .i find that while the lye has the mixture warm or hot it allows the fats to settle .i only let the mixture to sit for the time to seperate because if your not shakin it ain't collectin a hole lot more deamsters . i use the simple quick and easy spice tek but sorta double , so i put 1000 ml water in half gallon jar with 6 spoonfuls of lye ,stir with stainless utensil and then add 150 grams of mhrb .stir add naptha and procedure above if i end up with a little of that oily shit scrape it all together let sit with a/c blowin on it till solidified [meanin the oil parts ] and spread it over a peice of paper , then fold paper in half set somethin heavy on top for a half day to a day then check on it and usually most of the oil absorbes in to the paper then i scrape the white to almost completely clear crystals in my altoids tin. i use to get that much oil when i first started but realized i was letting it sit to long .then experimented and came up with the plan above .out of 150 gr mhrb i get between 1.1 gr and 2 gr nearly pure spice .

[doobydoobydoo]

Originally Posted by DJTetsu

Thanks dooby, for showing that you care

LMFAO

Originally Posted by DJTetsu

The main one being, well it's too damn yellow. And we know that when the naphtha sits with the jar too long this happens, so I'm going to shorten the duration. You suggested only a couple of hours... but I'm not sure if that's too short. Maybe I can eye it as it gets too yellow. If the duration is too short, maybe we'll be missing out on some DMT?

More pulls, more pulls. Yellow is oils. The naphtha seems to want to pull out oils no matter what. It is what is does in a sense. It is an organic solvent. It's just breaking those oils down and dissolving them and they're getting into the naphtha as it should.

For us however, this is NO GOOD. We don't want any oils or whatnot, only that spice. This is why the shorter the time you can expose the naphtha to the brew, the better. The defats I am trying in the other thread there help for sure, but time, definately time, makes a difference.

I saw that when I let that naphtha sit for several days over a weekend, OH BOY... about what you got, lots of oils and fats.

So what you want, is quick naphtha runs, doing it a few times to make sure you get all the spice out.

Originally Posted by DJTetsu

Straining it through a t-shirt after the lye digesting on the MHRB will be a most likely addition I would do. With the original marsfold tek, the first thing they do is get rid of the chunks of MHRB barks. I think lye or the naphtha will continue to chew on it drawing out oils.

Originally Posted by Doctor D

Why strain through a shirt after you've added the lye? That sounds pretty scary to me! Every time I've strained through a t-shirt I've had spills. I'd hate to have a lye spill. Wouldn't it make more sense to simmer the DMT out into plain DH20, strain, and then add lye?

I think people are getting a little crazy over the lye thing... The lye does two main things that I have seen... One being a result of the other...

It is very very basic. So mixing it with water makes a very basic solution. (this is high on the ph end) Lye is used as a drain cleaner/declogger/opener for this very reason. This low ph helps to speed the breakdown of organic matter. (hair, paper, BARK)... Basic ph adjusting, organic matter breakdown because of this basic ph.

The dmt/spice loves to hide or avoid ph levels. (I have not done much reading on this, only what I have seen from experience so far).

When you have an acidic solution, the dmt/spice will be pulled/stored in it. And then the reverse is true.

With a basic solution at the high ph end, the dmt/spice does not like to be in it, and it you use something like naphtha, it's gonna move into it and out of that acidic solution.

The naphtha is easy to seperate and evap. Both pluses.


But yeah, as per your orig question... I saw more oils and things be pulled outta the bark if it came in contact with the naphtha. It strips those oils and fats right out of it... So good straining, works great, cept, you need to have a nice acidic solution for the spice to follow. That would be my guess anyways...

Originally Posted by DJTetsu

Another reason for the straining is that I found out a separatory funnel is the most efficient way of separating the clear naphtha part of the solution (and you need it strained to use a sep funnel). I don't know how some ppl were able to use a turkey baster (useless!). A syringe worked fairly well, but the angle of the tip of the needle will inhibit you from drawing out 100% of the clear solution.

Wow, I wish I had one of those... not sure if it would work well with all the damn mhrb brew mix I had... thousands of mls.. lol.. will work on improving that. No need for that much. Becomes a hassle. Oh, I used a turkey baster. lol

[DJTetsu]

Thank you for the replies, Doc and Carpet. Ok that's 3 ppl agreeing on pretty quick naphtha sessions ( [at most] 2 hours with 3-4 shakes). So IMO that's a definite modification that needs to go in to the straight-to-base tek. If done overnight, you get lots of yellow.

Interestingly enough the STB tek is really very much like marsfold as I understand it without the initial boiling with acid (vinegar). But now people are saying vinegar isn't really necessary, so that initial acidifiying isn't so critical ?

The laying on the paper sounds like an interesting (and simple) idea to get the oil out. I might try that...

Straining after pouring the lye (for the STB tek) seemed right to me. Someone stated that lye going through the bark itself is what replaced the initial acidifying (I could be wrong). Yes it's messy. It's worse than working with hot used motor oil. Also the lye on the chunks of bark seems to me would produce more dmt (because it has more material)? However I may not be able to figure out a really efficient way to strain it.

-Edit Man doob, we must be replying at the same time. Good stuff. Well from what I'm reading, straining after the session with lye will still give a good smooth mixture for the naphtha part. Not exactly sure how much time after the lye I should strain but anyhow... it should be a good thing, and as I mentioned, set me up to use the separatory funnel (which can't be used if there's chunks).

[bbd2]

unless you have naphtha mixed in with the lye/mhrb soln, straining after adding lye may leave all your freebase dimti oil, which is floating on the lye/mhrb waiting for naphtha to dissolve in, on the t-shirt/filter lowering yield

the vinegar boil is a kind of defatting in that fats & oils will not dissolve in the acidic water, so if you filter the acidic mhrb there will be less fats to go into the naphtha later (the fats/oils are stuck on the filter and the bark mass) hence the "usually" whiter drier spice from acid first teks vs. stb

[DJTetsu]

Hmm, ok I'm thinking then.. of those metal kitchen strainers. Not so 100% but good enough so I can utilize my separatory funnel.

[bbd2]

if its just a matter of getting the naphtha out, you could try a "gas siphon" (theres a post on it somewhere here). it works pretty well. just do some practice runs on water or something to get the hang of it.

[doobydoobydoo]

Originally Posted by DJTetsu

Hmm, ok I'm thinking then.. of those metal kitchen strainers. Not so 100% but good enough so I can utilize my separatory funnel.

Yeah, I used one of those strainers when I cooked up my bark... lots of bits and pieces go through... This last time, I cut up and old t-shirt and strained it that way. Still got some bits and pieces, so did a 2nd strain, and then a 3rd strain again after reducing it down a bit. Stuff looks nice now.

[DJTetsu]

Is there a way to live with the yellow dmt ?

I've just been storing in the refrigrator. Maybe store in the freezer?

It seems like a lot of effort can go into making it all white, yet can the same end be achieved simply by the way you store it ?

[Doctor D]

Originally Posted by DJTetsu

Is there a way to live with the yellow dmt ?

Yes, absolutely there is: smoke it!

I've been living with my yellow DMT, resigned to the fact that it's not going to clean up. Yellow DMT is fine! It gets you high! It's good stuff. Smoke it and be done with it!

[Meshack]

Just Scrape that Yellow Gunk up, Re Dissolve it in warm/hot Naptha (to disolve the dmt back up) and A LOT of the yellow gunk will stick to the bottom, while the dmt containg naptha will be Much cleaner.
Then just pour off New cleaner naptha into a Small Scrapeable container. Cover and FREEZE IT, Maybe a day or two. Youll see the dmt powder start to stick to the bottom and sides.
The just pour off the Naptha, and scrape the White Powder Off the sides!

ITS REAL EASY!

Also,
Smoke some of that yellow shit in the mean time.
Put it between some weed or tobac. or parsley.

ITS FUCKING GREAT!
been doing under the stars lately and seeing LOTs of Strange lights Up in Space.

Anyway, Good Job on the GREAT SUCCESS!
-Meshack