basification

[marsofold]

I've gotten PMed requests on how to calculate the proper amount of lye needed for a MHRB extraction. After many tries, I found that a metered ph of 13.4 is the minimum that makes all of the inconvenient brown foam called "emulsions" go away. Others extractors well known to me have verified this as accurate. Here is how to calculate the correct amount of basification lye.
AFTER the extraction acid has been neutralized, the remaining amount of lye used should be 1% of the weight of the solution. The chemical reaction of the lye-vinegar neutralization is: NaOH + C2H4O2 --> NaC2H3O2 + H2O. The molecular weights of the reactants are: NaOH = 40, C2H4O2 = 60. Since the molar ratio of the equation is 1:1, then it takes 40grams of NaOH to neutralize 60grams of C2H4O2. A weight ratio of 2:3. Which means that the exact weight of lye needed to neutralize acetic acid is 2/3 the weight of the acetic acid. My TEK specifies 1 quart (liter) of vinegar is mixed with 3 quarts of water to make up a gallon of liquid. A liter is 1000grams. At 5% standard acidity, a liter of vinegar has exactly 1000grams x 0.05 = 50grams of acetic acid in it. 2/3 of that weight of lye is needed for neutralization. Thus: 50grams x 2/3 = 33grams of lye needed for neutralization to a ph of 7 (neutral). That means that you have to add 33grams to whatever weight of lye is needed to go from neutrality (ph 7) up to the ideal ph of 13.4. The easiest way to calculate that amount is to use an online ph calculator. Here is one that works for lye (Sodium Hydroxide):

http://www.sensorex.com/support/educ...alculator.html

My TEK for a pound of MHRB will generate about 3.7-Liters of vinegar-water extract after enough water has been added to bring the naptha & aqueous level to almost the top of a 1-Gallon jug . To use the calculator, select for Sodium Hydroxide and input into the center part the following numbers: 37grams and 3.7 (Liters). The answer at the top will indicate a ph of 13.4, the ideal. So...37grams are needed to get a gallon from neutral (7) up to a ph of 13.4. But don't forget that we had to use 33grams to neutralize the vinegar. So the total is: 33 + 37 = 70grams of lye needed. Per gallon with the naptha...

[ulatek]

Hi, SWIM has just began basification.. the lye solution was added to the jug, tilted gently back and forth for 1 minute, is now sitting.. but he doesnt really see any foam? aside from what appears to be little mhrb particles.. but not to much of any thickness at all,in fact most of the surface area is the same color as the rest of the bottle... is this bad?

[smacked12]

foaf is just a step ahead of you. all he sees is a few small bubbles at the very top of his solution, kinda clinging to the glass. besides that his solution is solid black w/o any foam.

[ulatek]

SWIM just tested it with a digital ph pen, 12.90 ... cant be too bad i guess
lil more lye made it 13.. completely black now, so he says
back to work for him i guess, lucky bastard..

[ulatek]

anyone know of it matters if i use a quart mason jar instead of a pint for the freeze precipitation?

[smacked12]

in foafs opinion smaller is better. he splits his naptha between half pints otherwise he has a bitch of a time with crystals sticking to the side of the jar when he pours. but, a quart jar would definately work.

[TheAngryGolfer]

Originally Posted by smacked12

in foafs opinion smaller is better. he splits his naptha between half pints otherwise he has a bitch of a time with crystals sticking to the side of the jar when he pours. but, a quart jar would definately work.

my dog's uncle has the same problem. also crystals like to stick to the bottom and sides at the bottom where the naptha is anyway.

next time he will be using a more shallow glass container, like a small casserole dish with a cover if he can find anything like that... so he can scrape up those pesky crystals that stick to the sides.

[ulatek]

well SWIM has LOTS of half-pint jars, ill suggest he give that a try , thanks

[TheAngryGolfer]

evaporate your solvent (assuming you will be using 300 ml) down to 100ml or so before freezing. and then after the freeze precip. evap the rest to get whatever little bit remains.

you will get a better return that way.

last time SWIM didnt do that and he is pretty sure he poured a few hundred mg of spice at least down the drain.

[marsofold]

I don't filter the naptha anymore. You can freeze the naptha in a glass baking pan covered with Saran plastic wrap. After two days or more in the freezer, lift a corner of the wrap, slowly pour off the naptha through that exposed corner, re-cover that corner, and allow the pan to warm up to room temp before removing the plastic (that way you won't get moisture condensing onto your crystals). Then let the crystals dry out completely before washing or recrystallizing them. They are easily scraped up from the bottom of the pan with a pair of single-edged razor blades.

[TheAngryGolfer]

Originally Posted by marsofold

I don't filter the naptha anymore. You can freeze the naptha in a glass baking pan covered with Saran plastic wrap. After two days or more in the freezer, lift a corner of the wrap, slowly pour off the naptha through that exposed corner, re-cover that corner, and allow the pan to warm up to room temp before removing the plastic (that way you won't get moisture condensing onto your crystals). Then let the crystals dry out completely before washing or recrystallizing them. They are easily scraped up from the bottom of the pan with a pair of single-edged razor blades.

so what about the stuff thats left in the naptha you poured out?

you dont pour it thru a coffee filter anymore to catch the crystals?

[ulatek]

i was wondering about that myself..
my guess is, id do it anyway..what can it hurt?

[smacked12]

Originally Posted by marsofold

I don't filter the naptha anymore. You can freeze the naptha in a glass baking pan covered with Saran plastic wrap. After two days or more in the freezer, lift a corner of the wrap, slowly pour off the naptha through that exposed corner, re-cover that corner, and allow the pan to warm up to room temp before removing the plastic (that way you won't get moisture condensing onto your crystals). Then let the crystals dry out completely before washing or recrystallizing them. They are easily scraped up from the bottom of the pan with a pair of single-edged razor blades.

foaf, thanks you! he tryed this method last night and this is definately the way to go.

so what about the stuff thats left in the naptha you poured out?

not a problem with this method. with the extra surface area the crystals aren't forced to pile up. all of the crystals stick to the bottom of the pan.

there rea

[marsofold]

Actually, I evaporate the naptha with a fan down to 1/3 of the original volume first. In the same glass baking pan. THEN the plastic wrap is put on for freezing. After the crystals are scraped up off the pan, I transfer the naptha back into the pan and evaporate it down completely. Then scrape up the "dirty" crystals from the evap for recrystallization. Not much there really, if the naptha was evapped to 1/3 earlier...

Originally Posted by TheAngryGolfer

so what about the stuff thats left in the naptha you poured out?

you dont pour it thru a coffee filter anymore to catch the crystals?

[TheAngryGolfer]

Originally Posted by marsofold

Actually, I evaporate the naptha with a fan down to 1/3 of the original volume first. In the same glass baking pan. THEN the plastic wrap is put on for freezing. After the crystals are scraped up off the pan, I transfer the naptha back into the pan and evaporate it down completely. Then scrape up the "dirty" crystals from the evap for recrystallization. Not much there really, if the naptha was evapped to 1/3 earlier...

ok.... so I guess the majority sticks to the bottom unlike how when you do it in a jar you get a big pile thats free floating in the naptha. I'm gonna do it like this next time because the jar was a pain in the balls with all the stuff sticking to the sides and bottom. how big of a baking pan are you using?

have you tried the ammonia + baking soda solvent wash yet?

SWIM has 2 sep. funnels now a 500ml for washes and a 1000ml for if he decides to boil down the acidified solution and defat and basifiy and separate using the funnel.

speaking of which, say someone did your tek with a pound of bark and a gallon of water/vinegar... and then boiled it down to say 300 or 500ml. how much lye/water would he use for basification? using that calculator in your first post it seems 5 grams of lye will bring 500ml (ph7) to ph13.4... but I dont know what ph it would be after boiling it down (in your tek the acidified solution is ph 4 right?), and I dont know how to calculate how much lye to neutralize it.... (in loki's tek it seems he uses baking soda to neutralize but I dont really see why you would do that when you could just use lye to neutralize and basify in one shot)

next time SWIM is probably gonna get a kg of bark... do one using your tek again (but be more careful and do the evap/freeze precip different) but with the solvent washes using the 500 ml funnel and a heptane recrystallization. and then do another one later with the other half of the kg, but boil it down, defat, and use the 1000ml funnel for non polar extraction/separation. I want to see if defatting makes a difference.

[marsofold]

Because the boiling point of acetic acid is very close to that of water, boiling down the polar extract will not change the ph much. So you can do a direct proportion calculation on the proper amount of lye. If you boil the water/vinegar down to 20% of the original volume, then use 20% of the original lye amount. The next time I extract I'll try the epsom salt naptha drying and the baking soda/ammonia wash...

[TheAngryGolfer]

whats size glass baking pan are you using for evaporation and freeze separation?

[TheAngryGolfer]

also how much water would you use with the lyeto make the liquid lye solution?

if you boiled it down to say 10%... meaning you have around 350ml you would use 7 grams of lye. so what, put it in a tenth of a pint of water? or does the amount of water you add the lye to not really matter as much?

[ulatek]

how long would it take the naptha to evap to 1/3 ?

SWIM put his naptha in a glass baking pan and put it in the freezer last night.. should he take it out and let it evap?

[TheAngryGolfer]

Originally Posted by ulatek

how long would it take the naptha to evap to 1/3 ?

SWIM put his naptha in a glass baking pan and put it in the freezer last night.. should he take it out and let it evap?

dont know exactly... maybe a day under a fan... maybe less. just make a little mark at the original level and watch it.

you dont have to take it out, but if you dont, there will be a good amount left in the naptha. which isnt a huge deal, you can evap that and freeze it again, or evap it all the way. just dont collect your crystals and then dump the rest like I did... so its up to you, either evap now or later. either way when you think you got everything out still evap the naptha down to nothing to make sure you got everything.

[marsofold]

I use a large pyrex baking pan around 15" x 10". How much water you mix with the lye for the concentrated solution is irrelevant as long as it isn't inconveniently thick. I have done some extractions with dry powdered lye and not seen any loss in yield (add slowly while stirring rapidly), so it can't matter all that much as long as the total weight of lye is correct. Use a small fan to evaporate your naptha down to 1/3, and do it in the same baking pan to maximize surface area, which increases the evaporation rate. I've evaporated 600ml down to 200ml in a matter of 4 hours. For safety, be sure you have lots of ventilation (open windows).

[motograter]

wow! foaf SWIMs with your dogs uncle......

[ulatek]

LoL..

SWIM stirred his lye solution too quickly last night i think, it started making a gurgling noise and bubbling up,SWIM dropped his spoon and ran across the room..hes read too many comics too stick around when chemicals act up,can that junk actually explode or what?

[marsofold]

Good thing you ran. You were almost the next "Swamp Thing"!!!

[ulatek]

Wow, me thinks SWIM is in for a good yield. He took a peek at the baking pan and the bottom is alrdy entirely covered with little white crystals *fights off temptation*. I had my doubts in SWIMs ability but it seems he may have actually done something right thx mars, and everyone.

SWIM plans on smoking his in a glass pipe (tube with a bubble on the end, carb on the bubble), would this work ok? He plans on heating the glass until it begins to smoke and then begin smokin, or does the flame need to touch it directly?

[TheAngryGolfer]

Originally Posted by marsofold

I use a large pyrex baking pan around 15" x 10". How much water you mix with the lye for the concentrated solution is irrelevant as long as it isn't inconveniently thick. I have done some extractions with dry powdered lye and not seen any loss in yield (add slowly while stirring rapidly), so it can't matter all that much as long as the total weight of lye is correct. Use a small fan to evaporate your naptha down to 1/3, and do it in the same baking pan to maximize surface area, which increases the evaporation rate. I've evaporated 600ml down to 200ml in a matter of 4 hours. For safety, be sure you have lots of ventilation (open windows).

last time I evaporated some naptha I just put it in a room with a ceiling fan.....

[TheAngryGolfer]

Originally Posted by ulatek

LoL..

SWIM stirred his lye solution too quickly last night i think, it started making a gurgling noise and bubbling up,SWIM dropped his spoon and ran across the room..hes read too many comics too stick around when chemicals act up,can that junk actually explode or what?

no, but it can FLASH BOIL (when you add lye to water it raises the temperature of the water, and add enough/too quickly and it will boil) and then you can get splashed with lye solution. ever see fight club? then you know that that is not good.

[TheAngryGolfer]

Originally Posted by ulatek

Wow, me thinks SWIM is in for a good yield. He took a peek at the baking pan and the bottom is alrdy entirely covered with little white crystals *fights off temptation*. I had my doubts in SWIMs ability but it seems he may have actually done something right thx mars, and everyone.

SWIM plans on smoking his in a glass pipe (tube with a bubble on the end, carb on the bubble), would this work ok? He plans on heating the glass until it begins to smoke and then begin smokin, or does the flame need to touch it directly?

post yeilds and trip reports ASAfuckinP


as for the glass pipe... thats pretty much the best way to smoke it, indirect flame, vaporizing... BUT.. if there is any lye left in your crystals, smoking it that way give it time to react with the spice and screw it up. what will happen is the spice melts clear. then it takes a little while to vaprorize and get some nice thick white vapor. but then after a while the liquid tunrs dark brown and can make some nasty brown looking smoke. according to some old posts by Loki of DMT world this is caused by the lye reacting with, and breaking down the DMT into who knows what.

one strange thing I heard is one of the effects this causes is a strange feeling of being on a raft in water. I ALWAYS get this when coming down after smoking from a glass base pipe (what you described). I will feel the chair moving like a boat and actually SEE the floor moving in waves. I thought this was just part of the experience, and its kind of cool, but according to some posts on DMTworld it is caused by lye breaking down DMT into mystery compounds.

what kind of cleaning procedures are you planning? with just the ammonia wash of the crystals, you will have lye. not enough to be harmful or anything (especially since lye has a MUCH higher boiling point than DMT, actually lyes melting point is higher than DMT's boiling point.... but i think you probably can inhale some droplets of liquid containing lye and that causes the burn). at the very least, if you dont have a separatory funnel do a ammonia wash of the crystals and then a recrystallization. after a recrystallization, my spice doesnt hurt my throat at all... but still does the crap where it turns dark brown in a base pipe.

[ulatek]

im still thinking about how to wash, dont have a sep funnel, and dunno how to re-crystallize yet (havent read that far), any suggestions? dont wanna screw my spice up.

ill post pics and reports soon as i can, but the pics will be blurry.. best cam i had was on my 400$ phone, which i threw against the wall bc the electricity went out and i damn near broke my leg on the coffee table trying to use it as a flashlight,it was a shitty flashlight so it was sentenced it to death.

is it almost a sure thing the stuff will be harsh if i dont wash? im havin trouble finding the ammonia even,no ace hardware here jus a lowes..looked around for it but i didnt find any, hate askin ppl there bc they are nosey.. the stupid look in their eyes when they ask me what i need it for makes me want to vomit on the floor..if i did that maybe theyd have an answer.

[TheAngryGolfer]

Originally Posted by ulatek

im still thinking about how to wash, dont have a sep funnel, and dunno how to re-crystallize yet (havent read that far), any suggestions? dont wanna screw my spice up.

ill post pics and reports soon as i can, but the pics will be blurry.. best cam i had was on my 400$ phone, which i threw against the wall bc the electricity went out and i damn near broke my leg on the coffee table trying to use it as a flashlight,it was a shitty flashlight so it was sentenced it to death.

is it almost a sure thing the stuff will be harsh if i dont wash? im havin trouble finding the ammonia even,no ace hardware here jus a lowes..looked around for it but i didnt find any, hate askin ppl there bc they are nosey.. the stupid look in their eyes when they ask me what i need it for makes me want to vomit on the floor..if i did that maybe theyd have an answer.

at the very least do a wash with the ammonia. they have the right kind at ace hardware.

recrystallizing is easy.

just put the crystals in naptha or heptane, heptane being better(around 70ml per gram), heat it up using a heat bath or other non flame heat source... pour the naptha into the baking pan and leave the gunk on the bottom of the jar. do another freeze sep... and thats it.

[TheAngryGolfer]

yea dont worry about taking pics. we know what it looks like I was more interested in your yiled as in how much you get....

and yea it will be harsh if you dont wash or recrystallize. I noticed a HUGE difference between when I first just washed it with ammonia and then after I recrystallized.

before I recryustallized one time I had irritation in my thorat and lungs that lasted a whole day. after recrystlization, no irritation at all.

[ulatek]

well, just finished scrapin it up.. may be off a little, but pretty accurate in guessing, got at the very least 2.5g of very white crystalline powder. but looking at it id say its more like 3,lost my digis but once upon a time i was quite an accurate human scale.

yet to pop any in a pipe n smoke it, kinda makin sure its dry first. didnt wash but im gonna try it anyway, anticipation is killin me. how should i judge the dosage? i got no clue whats typical...lemme know and ill try it out and let ya know how it was soon as im back. never done this stuff b4 btw hehe

[TheAngryGolfer]

Originally Posted by ulatek

well, just finished scrapin it up.. may be off a little, but pretty accurate in guessing, got at the very least 2.5g of very white crystalline powder. but looking at it id say its more like 3,lost my digis but once upon a time i was quite an accurate human scale.

yet to pop any in a pipe n smoke it, kinda makin sure its dry first. didnt wash but im gonna try it anyway, anticipation is killin me. how should i judge the dosage? i got no clue whats typical...lemme know and ill try it out and let ya know how it was soon as im back. never done this stuff b4 btw hehe

couple of things.... have you seen DMT before? it can look like more than it is. when I did my extraction I thought I had at least 1.5g based on looks, and it was really about 750mg (from a pound... yea i fucked up)

its hard to judge the dosage. to me 50 mg looks liek ALOT. but really... you get a nice little pile, thorw it in the pipe and smoke it, it will work. take 3 good hits. you wont overdose if its too much or anything, you wont even finish it.

and the spice got alot denser when I recrystallized... it actually looks about half as much as it did before rextallization for a given weight.

[ulatek]

yea i could see where you coming from, it does kinda seem fluffy and looks probably bigger because of that.only DMT ive seen before is purdy pictures in books, here and the like. i live in the "heartland" and the only goodies i get to partake of are the ones far away from here, or the ones i make myself.

anyways, here i go..

[TheAngryGolfer]

Originally Posted by ulatek

yea i could see where you coming from, it does kinda seem fluffy and looks probably bigger because of that.only DMT ive seen before is purdy pictures in books, here and the like. i live in the "heartland" and the only goodies i get to partake of are the ones far away from here, or the ones i make myself.

anyways, here i go..

oh dont get me wrong the first DMT I saw in person was the stuff I made myself. its realy not readily available anywhere?

your about to smoke some now?

in for trip report

[ulatek]

i just finished smokin some, not many visuals at all.. although i feel/felt really weird, my lips are burnt and lungs feel weird. i got some pretty cool rushes but that was about it. guess ill wash and recrystallize.. dunno whats wrong, i got a definite high.. but as for oevs/cevs nothing at all really,got a couple big hits of white smoke, few others of nasty tasting shit.

upon smoking a lil more, i got much more fukt up. walls breathing a bit,eyes going out of focus, hearing a humming noise. objects in my room changing sizes like small/medium/large rapidly when exhaling.

i notice that u dont get so much of the nasty shit if u hold the lighter about 2-3 cm away from the glass , the goodness seems to vaporize then, the nasty tastes set in if the flame touches the glass.

somethin is definately wrong tho, no elves... damnit, where r the elves?!

hopefully recrystallizing and all that jazz will help

[TheAngryGolfer]

wow that sucks....

you are not supposed to get "high". you are supposed to trip pretty hard. strong open eye visuals (tho not always) and very intense CEVs, sometimes to the point of being a part of the visuals/going to another "dimension".

you were smoking in a glass bubble base pipe right? the "nasty hits".... did you notice that the melted spice had turned dark at that point... or even the smoke itself turning dark? that is supposedly from lye reacting with the DMT... BUT a coupel of good thick white hits should have had you tripping. You should have had at the very least some really nice CEV's.

possible problems: alot of lye left over. judging from your burnt lips and lungs, this is a definate (but even when I got the scratchy lungs before i recrystallized, I tripped). its possible that there is so much lye that it is destroying the spice, making it into another unknown compound.

bad bark. alot of people are reporting bad bark... weak visuals (and I dont know whether what I have is weak or not, because it is the only DMT i have smoked, but I always get visuals, and on one occasion I believe I "broke through") or NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER from nice looking white crystal.

or you could be one of the unlucky people who DMT doesnt work on.

try smoking some in a regular pipe between 2 thin layers of parsely or oregano. its a possibility you smoked it wrong (though it doesnt sound like it). it MIGHT be easier to get an effect this way.

but no visuals at all is a definate problem. first time I tried mine it was the parsely method, but I had some great, beautiful CEVs that I got lost in for a few minutes, and then some mild OEVs and just a general feeling of amazement.

[ulatek]

i think i dosed too small at first, altho i did get a nice hit. the others were god-awful tasting, my lips dont burn anymore and my lungs are just a tad scratchy.

i then loaded easily 3-times what i did before, after about 5 minutes, wich is when i got the few visuals i did. but they were short lived and really just as i exhaled. maybe i just need to load that much tommorow and try again.. i definately feel.felt like i was trippin. gave my girl some but she got the bad-tasting stuff and didnt want anymore..better luck tommorow i hope

[TheAngryGolfer]

well the shit alwasy tastes nasty. but I've developed a bit of a taste for it, kinda like it in a weird way.

but no, somethings wrong. after you take a hit or 2 you should be able to close your eyes and get lost in the visuals. 3 good hits *SHOULD* be enough for a breakthrough.

For the record, DMT freebase is caustic, and inhaling it will leave a numbness to your mouth and throat.. Even pure DMT freebase will numb your tongue, so don't assume that a bit of numbness is lye... I have always washed the solvent 3 times(various methods), and dried it with baked epsom salts, and gotten white xtals, then re-xtallized to get clear shards... The clear still has a slight harshness, and although I do enjoy the taste, it does numb the tongue... If you place pure DMT freebase on your tongue, it will make it numb, go ahead and test it if you have a source... Freebase tends to be caustic, and you will notice this with many freebase alkaloids... Hope this helps!!! ;-)

[TheAngryGolfer]

Originally Posted by pissybee

For the record, DMT freebase is caustic, and inhaling it will leave a numbness to your mouth and throat.. Even pure DMT freebase will numb your tongue, so don't assume that a bit of numbness is lye... I have always washed the solvent 3 times(various methods), and dried it with baked epsom salts, and gotten white xtals, then re-xtallized to get clear shards... The clear still has a slight harshness, and although I do enjoy the taste, it does numb the tongue... If you place pure DMT freebase on your tongue, it will make it numb, go ahead and test it if you have a source... Freebase tends to be caustic, and you will notice this with many freebase alkaloids... Hope this helps!!! ;-)

ok.... but isnt it true that residual lye will destroy some of the DMT when you smoke it?

with the really pure clear stuff, when you smoke it in a base pipe does the liquid still turn dark after a few hits and leave a dark residue? I've read that that is caused by lye breaking down and polymerizing the DMT.

[TheAngryGolfer]

any more tries ulatek? did u get it to work?

try a regular pipe with the spice sandwiched between two thin layers of parsely. I did that my first time and it worked... then I was all about the glass bubble vaporizer but today I tried the regular pipe again for shits and giggles and had my strongest trip yet by far.

Could be lye, or tannins, or any other material causing the color... I dunno about your DMT, but the stuff I extract and recrystallize is damn near clear crystals, and gives no real color in the bottom of glass, unless you smoke a whole bunch(several sessions)... And it's usually barely any real color, but a small light ring around wherw it has vaped from.. I suppose it isn't 100% pure, but it's smooth and powerful, so it works for me... I have given my method of washing the solvent, but you are best to try your own experiments to find what works best for you...

[TheAngryGolfer]

Originally Posted by pissybee

Could be lye, or tannins, or any other material causing the color... I dunno about your DMT, but the stuff I extract and recrystallize is damn near clear crystals, and gives no real color in the bottom of glass, unless you smoke a whole bunch(several sessions)... And it's usually barely any real color, but a small light ring around wherw it has vaped from.. I suppose it isn't 100% pure, but it's smooth and powerful, so it works for me... I have given my method of washing the solvent, but you are best to try your own experiments to find what works best for you...

my spice is pure white and crystalline. but when smoked in a base pipe it turns to clear liquid but then turns very dark after a couple hits.

what was your solvent washing method? I have a sep funnel now for my next batch

as for the batch I have, I'm gonna retire the base pipe for now after my experience yesterday smoking out of a regular pipe w/ parsely.