morels ne info?

[mergerleft]

does or has ne 1 grown morels indoors succesfully? ive been searching endlessly on the web cant find grow info only grow kits have good syringe but no knowledge.would you just prep a bed out doors and make grain spawn with spores for outdoorbed?

[mergerleft]

opps forgot ne info greatly app and links would be great if you noe of good info sites ty

[max]

Morels are very difficult to grow and most kits are a ripoff. It sounds like you are new to this and prolly better off getting some experience before tackling one of the most difficult mushrooms to grow. The worlds supply of fresh morels still comes from wild harvesting.

[Hippie3]

http://special.newsroom.msu.edu/dnp/mushrooms.html

http://www.newsroom.msu.edu/site/ind...52/content.htm

[viraljimmy]

Why do people eat them?

[Lazlo]

They have an excellent flavor to accompany a wide variety of dishes.

[AcidHorse]

Hey Hippie3,
I see you found Gary Mills's photos.
Do you have any of Costantinella Cristata? the anamorph of Morchella?

[Lazlo]

http://www.thefarm.org/mushroom/morel.html

Gary Mills' Morel tek.

[max]

As you can see, this company is the only one to have any success with morels, thats why they make the news. They use the most advanced teks and equipment. If you have a million dollar lab and the experience of the professionals involved in a business such as those guys, maybe you can grow some too but for Joe Blough off the street trying to graduate from pfjars, it's still a dream. Your best bet is to take some morels and throw them in your yard and hope mother nature cooperates.

[AcidHorse]

That's funny because Ronald D. Ower didn't have a million dollar lab and he was able to fruit morels at home.

[AcidHorse]

What I can't understand is why on thefarm site it says to put the seed tray on bottom (place substrate tray on top) yet in the patent it says
place the seed tray (nutrient source) on top and hyphae grow up.
Its a flip-flop.
When you put the substrate tray on top and seed tray on bottom, the substrate becomes totally enmeshed in a solid mass of hyphae (however I don't think that is sclerotia). This is from my own experiment and yet I have yet to verify that Morchella was
the dominant mycelia.
Kept getting this strange stuff

[AcidHorse]

Hi Shawn. I have seen the conidia only once in person but there is an old drawing of Costantinella in an old Mycologia, I think. as I recall it looks kind of like a bunch of grapes, but each with its individual sheath a the bottom, kind of like a tomato top. I don't know the color, but what I saw did not resemble Rhizopus at all.

hope this helps
--tom


****************************************
Tom Volk
Professor of Biology
3024 Cowley Hall
University of Wisconsin- La Crosse
La Crosse WI 54601
****************************************

________________________________

Sent: Fri 5/12/2006 11:28 PM
To: Volk Thomas J
Subject: Conidiophores and Conidia of Morchella Esculenta


Hi Tom, I was wondering if you may have any actual photographs of the asexual conidia of Morchella Esculenta,
(aka Costantinella Cristata) I'm just wanting to be able to make a positive ID on it.
If not right away, I'd like to ask if it resembles a rhizopus like stalk and nodule? only super elongated with
cream colored nodules? some are sometimes black.

[AcidHorse]

One thing that also needs to be found out is if the conidial stages for Black Morels and Yellow Morels are identical or different, since the two are different species.

[Lazlo]

That didn't make any sense to me either. It seems as if a standard seed spawn used to inoculate pasteurized decomposed forest products would be superficial. I think the main key is simply sclerotia formation for fruiting. I can't see why this couldn't be accomplished the way i'm explaining.

[AcidHorse]

I think my cultures are contaminated.
But I won't know until I can get some identification on what it is I have currently. Plus it would be good practice to know what Costantinella Cristata looks like, so when it is encountered in a tray along with the sclerotia during the experiments, it won't throw me off by making me think its contamination.

[max]

>That's funny because Ronald D. Ower didn't have a million dollar lab and he was >able to fruit morels at home.


He fruited his in a controlled fruiting chamber at San Francisco State University in 1982 and he had years of experience and knowledge, something mergerleft obviously does not have. A a couple select scientists who have made it thier lifes work may have some success after years of trial and error and research using latest equipment and resources but Joe Newbie who doesn't have a clue and buys some kit is pretty well guaranteed to fail.

[AcidHorse]

This is what I meant when I said the substrate tray became entirely enmeshed in white-rust colored hyphae mass. How can a percolation of water ever happen? and aeration?

[AcidHorse]

From what I read he wasn't even a senior in college, when he discovered it. He was a junior mycology student or something like
that and he came upon by chance. On a small scale.

[Lazlo]

That appears to be sclerotia forming. The rust colored mass is how Dr. Mills describes it.

Quote from Dr. Mills.
Shake the jar to thoroughly mix in the mycelium. Place the jar in a cool (68 - 71°F), dark place for approximately 4 - 6 weeks. Good growth will be indicated by whitish strands of mycelium growing through the medium. At about 5 weeks, small aggregates of white to rust colored mycelia scerotia will form.

[Lazlo]

Originally Posted by AcidHorse

How can a percolation of water ever happen? and aeration?

Your guess is as good as mine. lol! Do you mean for fruiting from the stones?

[AcidHorse]

fruiting from the stones? you mean nutrient-poor?

[Lazlo]

From what i've gathered about having a chance to fruit Morel's indoors is; sclerotia formation has to occur in order to even have a chance at it. The sclerotia are basically seeds that support mushroom fruitbodies.

[AcidHorse]

Yes, but you also need a convenient way to identify what you got.
Otherwise, you end up growing something else. Even if you use sterilized substrate, you still have to put the spores/vegetative hyphae/sclerotia into the substrate and that opens another contaminating opportunity.

Yet even if you get sclerotia, you have to get to the point of primordia, and those come before ascocarp development.

[AcidHorse]

Gary Mills, still hasn't given me a reply on that conidia, yet.

[AcidHorse]

Originally Posted by captainmax

>That's funny because Ronald D. Ower didn't have a million dollar lab and he was >able to fruit morels at home.


He fruited his in a controlled fruiting chamber at San Francisco State University in 1982 and he had years of experience and knowledge, something mergerleft obviously does not have. A a couple select scientists who have made it thier lifes work may have some success after years of trial and error and research using latest equipment and resources but Joe Newbie who doesn't have a clue and buys some kit is pretty well guaranteed to fail.

------------------------------------------------------------------

From:captainmaxmushroom - view profileDate:Tues, May 27 2003 11:45 pm Email: captainmaxmushr...@sporelab.comGroups: alt.drugs.mushrooms
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I'm just trying to save you some time.

I hope you have a huge laboratory and years of experience or it will
take you longer than 20 years.

Point is, there are many *profitable* mushroom species that simply
cannot be cultivated indoors with any decent success. That is why the
worlds supply of these mushrooms come from harvesters who pick them in
the wild.

Your time will be better spent on something you'll have success with.

But hey....it's your time!

www.sporelab.com

On Tue, 27 May 2003 20:43:26 GMT, "knotyouraverageguy"

- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

<knotyouraverage...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I believe somone may have told Columbus he was wasting his time.....the
>world is flat.....Think about it, what will I really be out if I fail? Its a
>damn fungus and they grow like hell in the wild, there has to be a way to
>reproduce them indoors! It may take me 20 years to figure it out but dammit,
>when I'm too fuckin old to go out and hunt for the damn things, atleast I'll
>be able to grow the mother fuckers! Its an experiment, and the only real
>failure would be to sit back and listen to some grouchy old fucker like your
>self and not try!
><captainmaxmushr...@sporelab.com> wrote in message
>news:1d37dv4jcj5hk9govq26dgjafh7f3i16gb@4ax.com...
>> You guys are wasting your time trying to grow morels by any method!

>> www.sporelab.com

>> On Tue, 06 May 2003 01:31:59 GMT, "knotyouraverageguy"
>> <knotyouraverage...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > OK, I know this group is mostly on the topic of cubensis, but I have a
>> >question....first of all, dont flame me for this, I love this group and I
>> >enjoy reading all of the posts and you all have helped me alot with my
>own
>> >questions on different teks, now... I am what you might call a hillbilly
>and
>> >growing up in the hills of West Virginia one of my favorite pass times in
>> >the spring was hunting morel mushrooms. Now that I'm older and no longer
>in
>> >the hills, the mushrooms are not as plentiful and neither is the time nor
>> >the place to hunt them. I did find a few today, and I was wondering, how
>> >hard are they to grow? Would the PF tek work for them? Could I take a
>small
>> >sample of the fruit body and place it in a petri dish with some ager and
>> >clone it this way? I am a rookie here, I have plenty of experience with
>the
>> >PF tek, or a pretty close version of it, but I am just now beginning to
>try
>> >a few other teks and types of mushrooms .I am more into the experimenting
>> >end of it now, and I dont trip anymore so cubensis doesn't have the
>appeal
>> >that it used to Besides, from what I hear, cubensis spores are illegal
>in
>> >ohio now so I got rid of all of mine =) Can anyone help me here? Thanks
>in
>> >advance for any help and if I get none, thanks anyway. ----Mike




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From:photon7 - view profileDate:Wed, May 28 2003 10:59 am Email: phot...@webtv.netGroups: alt.drugs.mushrooms
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Oh contraire,morels can certainly be grown indoors and
commercially.Unfortunatly ,many of those who know the secrets are no
longer with us(including my good friend Larry"Tree"Lonik who passed away
this past April 15th).The late Ronald Ower first cultivated them at his
house while in college(he never lived to see his patent granted ,as he
was murdered in San Francisco shortly before).The story of Morchella
cultivation and those involved would make an interesting movie or novel
to say the least.Your attitude is the correct one as many people say
that alot of things "can't be done"! If that were the case we would
still be living in caves!The patent(s) are available to read for free
from the U.S. patent office web site(#4,594,809).You may also want to
goto www.mushroompeople.com and read thier interesting link emulating
Mill's and Ower's prcedures.There are many many interesting articles and
books that devote space to various attempts.As far as I know the only
company still growing/tryng to grow commercially, is Terry Farms in
Alabama who purchased the patent(s) from Morel Mountain in Mason
,Michigan.For further reads try,Nancy Smith Weber and Paul Stamets
books. Larry Lonik published the first photo's of lab grown morels in
his book"The Curious Morel",1984.Good Luck!

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[Workman]

It may be hard to do, but that doesn't mean noone should try. This is a hobby for most of us after all. If enough amateurs give it a try in a kitchen lab someone is going to succeed eventually. When that happens, morel growing won't be so mysterious and we will all benefit. To just sit there and assume it is impossible and tell everyone they are wasting their time isn't helpful.

On a side, note. I have had some minimal success growing black morels on cased grass seed in as little three weeks after innoculation at room temperature. Unfortunately, they abort under 1 cm in total length. But, hey, its a start.

[AcidHorse]

Workman we need to talk. I have some ideas that might help you succeed. Plus you might have even seen the conidia. I need to get
an idea what they look like. Plus I'd like to hear about how you managed to get clean sterile cultures from the mushrooms. Did you start by spores or tissue culture?

[Workman]

I haven't seen the conidia. I was able to get clean tissue for a clone, but its not easy since the flesh is so thin. Fortunately, the mycelium grows extremely fast and usually outraces any contaminates. I also saved spores as a backup.

The mycelium in your picture looks nothing like any morel mycelium I have ever seen. It is way too dense and white.

[AcidHorse]

Yeah I know Workman,
There must have been some Rhizopus spores on the dried morel or the fresh one I had put in the mason jar. And even though I sterilized the substrate that was unavoidable for me at least.
I need a tip on how to handle getting isolated samples or isolating just the morel spores or samples. If that was out of the way I think I can
come up with some results.
But you are dealing with Morchella Elata or Angusticeps the black morels, I don't know what their mycelia looks like. I'm dealing
with the Esculenta / Deliciosa species. I think their mycelia may look different. Esculenta should be white, then with white to rust
colors.

[Workman]

I am about to start some new experiments using Morchella rufobrunnea (Mexican morel) which I am hopeful is more cooperative than the North American species. It can fruit at any time of the year (when it is wet) and it prefers warm temperatures. These are good clues that it is not as fussy about precise environmental control and it should fruit at room temperature. I have long suspected that the indoor fruiting of morels is all about finding a lab friendly strain.

In my experience, all of the morel mycelium is pretty similar in the early stages. It begins with a very fine, almost invisible, mycelium that looks all the world like a contaminate. Only after it thickens up and starts to generate sclerotia on the petri dish can you convince yourself that you isolated the right stuff. It also grows extremely fast. It should cover the dish in 2-3 days after you first see germination.

[AcidHorse]

sounds like a plan.
So how do you go about getting the spores on the petri dish without
contaminating them?
What do you use as a nutrient additive for the agar?

-One thing I've noticed about those pictures from DNP Mills's laboratory
is that the lights are on the side and trays are stacked. Seems they like to keep the lights on at all times instead of the 12 on 12 off thing
mentioned on the mushroompeople site. Plus the percolation of the substrate must be handled naturally by gravitation, a certain amount of water is put on the top trays and other trays and a certain amount
trickles downward percolated through the soil in the trays. Plus looking
at those morels I can detect a pattern of growth towards the light, could they be utilizing the light as a means of maturing and triggering
spore releasal?
Also noticed some rogue plant sprouts in the trays, could suggest the
nutrient source tray was placed on top of the substrate tray, or they
could have been inducing a mycorrhizal situation. Then applied casing soil afterwards.
But I'm stumped where there is a CHILLING step involved, how long is necessary?, colder temps should slow down growth activity even for sclerotia.

[Workman]

If you are working with a dried mushroom, you have to expect contamination. You can use water agar but I use MEA with gentamycin antibiotic to supress bacteria. I just scrape out a pit and smear the scrapings on the agar and see what happens. It usually works. You can also use 1mg/liter benlate to inhibit sporulating molds if those are a problem.

I doubt there is a mycorrhizal aspect, but I am pretty certain the casing is biologically active and stimulatory to fruiting.

[AcidHorse]

by biological you mean microbes?

[AcidHorse]

where would you get Benlate from? is it at a garden supply store?

[Workman]

Not anymore. It used to be widely availalbe as a lawn fungicide, but Dupont has discontinued it. At 1 mg per liter, a little goes a long way. Fortunately I was able to stockpile a few pounds before it was pulled from the shelves.

I wouldn't worry about trying to find it, I rarely use it myself. The biggest problem you are likely to experience is from bacteria. And now that I think about it, I've never used it with an Ascomycete so maybe its not useful for morels anyway.

[AcidHorse]

found an interesting document written by Volk.
Might be worth checking out...
http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/article...i?artid=203229

[AcidHorse]

Hey where can one get asparagine or aspartic acid from locally?
tried a couple of health food stores and they didn't have it.
You'd think they would since its an amino acid.
That or get Aspartic acid.
Figure I should try it to see if it actually procduces a higher yield of
sclerotia.

[Raul del Angelo]

A local curbside vendor of what I think is
white morels tells me that his cases come in
with the bottom of the boxes covered with
spores. He told me I could have them for the
asking. If anyone has a serious interest in experimenting
with growing morels I would be glad to share.

PM me if you are interested and I will try to get some
spores to whom ever is interested.


Peace, Raul

[AcidHorse]

got dried and possibly can get fresh from local international market.

[Lazlo]

I've got a wild dry specimen as well. This is going to be some tough work. Hopefully we'll be able to get a grip of a good and easy technique for all to use.

[max]

Workman, when I see someone like you working with morels I don't blink an eyelash. You have years of experience, lots of equipment and resources and know from the start about the difficulties of fruiting this mushroom.

But when I see someone ask 'can you grow these?' then it's obviously an inexperienced person who will definately fail. It's kinda like those expensive stores where they say if you have to ask the price...you can't afford it! Anyone who posseses the skills and resources and experience to have half a chance with these would already know about the difficulties. It's like asking if you can walk on the moon. Sure, I've seen humans walk on the moon but that doesn't mean Joe Blough walking down the street will ever do it and it would be unfair to tell him he can by posting a picture of Neil Armstrong. It wouldn't be fair to get his hopes up without explaining about the difficutlies in obtaining a spaceship, etc. would it?

I hope nobody ever finds a reliable way to grow morels because that would put thousands of pickers out of work every spring.

[AcidHorse]

That is like Microsoft claiming nobody would crack XP and
a "nobody" group figured out they could copy the corporate version
over the professional version thereby defeating the protection.

So saying it can't be done is a sure foot in the mouth waiting to happen.

[slp]

The Patent leaves out some important steps. These left out parts are only
given to people who buy the Patent. One of these most important elements
is the use of "Activated Charcoal" and "Spawn Mate". This was found out by
one of our IMGN Members who sat outside a plant for weeks watching what
came in and what went out. I brought this to attention years ago in a past TMC Issue. Number 11 TMC gives the basic growing tek............slp/fmrc

[slp]

Taken from #71 TMC July 06............:
Indiana Inventor Announces Morel Cultivation Patent

LAFAYETTE, Ind., May 26 /PRNewswire/ -- One day, the agricultural landscapes of the heartlands could feature more than traditional stalks of corn. Fields of the mushrooms known as morels may soon populate farmland across the country. Or better yet, a tree in your own yard could help you grow the tasty mushrooms.

Stewart C. Miller of Lafayette, Indiana, has patented a process to inoculate trees with the morel mushroom fungus. Under the right conditions and with the proper host, Miller says, anyone can become a morel farmer.

For centuries, morel (Morchella) mushrooms have attracted mushroom lovers because they are delicious, fun to hunt for, and provide a great way for families and friends to spend time together. Yet hunting for mushrooms has its drawbacks: Novice morel hunters need to take particular care in differentiating edible morels from poisonous ones. Miller's invention removes this guesswork. "Once you grow your own morels, you won't have to go hunting or enlist an expert to spot poisonous mushrooms," Miller comments.

Miller, who studied biology at Ball State University, became an avid morel mushroom hunter as a child. He began his research on growing morels while teaching biology in 1972. In May 1992, he made his big discovery, writing in his journal, "It's a simple symbiotic pact between the fungus and the tree!"

However, it took ten years to prove his theory. Using a high-tech microscopic camera, he photographed the morel fungus entering the root of an ash tree. He then inoculated elm trees with the fungus and successfully cultivated morels. Miller filed for his patent in 2002. Finally, in June 2005, Miller received "Cultivation of Morchella (Morels), Patent Number 6,907,691."

Morels, which look like sponges, prefer to live in other plants. The host plants grow faster and healthier with the fungus in their roots, and the mushrooms thrive in the moisture and warmth of the host. The magic occurs when the process of "symbiotic disruption" takes place: The tree begins to die and signals the fungus inside to withdraw and form hardened nodules underground.

"The death of the tree sends the morel fungus packing," states Miller. "In spring, the nodules swell with water and pop into big yellow mushrooms above ground. I envision bright fields of mushrooms across the country."

Those interested in raising the mushroom delicacy, the harvest season of which falls between March and June depending on climate and region, can order inoculated trees via http://www.Morel-Farms.com. Miller provides detailed instructions to ensure success.

[max]

acid, those hackers obvioulsy knew what they were doing. The guy who asks 'can you grow morels?' obviously doesn't! And thats the difference. There will always be experts who can accomplish what the beginners can't. And the beginers should be told so. Another example: a guy with a white belt in karate asked me if he could break a brick with his head. I told him NO! Maybe someday after years of training and he gets a black belt, I've seen black belts do it. But as a white belt who doesn't have a clue how it's done and no training, he is going to break his head!

And that last post from morel-farms is like all the kit-sellers who try to convince you it's so 'easy'....just send us your money! And he talks about how the death of the tree is an important step. So are you supposed to kill the tree? And then what...buy another one next year? I don't know....his website says: "Elm trees are very productive but are a little more challenging to germinate and inoculate. Morel production is in direct proportion to the age of the tree. If you are a serious morel farmer it is recommended that you plant trees every year to keep your plantation productive year after year." Ya, I'll send out my $300 for the minimum 10 tree's asap...I hope I get at least $30 worth of morels off each one!

There are a lot of morels that are harvested in the midwest US but HUGE harvesting is done where forest fires occur, esp. in the Yukon and northern Canada. That INMG guy didn't have to stake out that plant for a month but merely look at the soil in a forest fire site to figure out the charcoal link!

I'm always skeptical when it comes to growing morels, too many reports of failures from the many kits available.

[alpiner]

chances are it will be a waste of time but you never know, many discoveries have been made by amatuers when things mystified the scientific crowd

go for it, you will probably learn plenty of things even if you don't get fruit

[slp]

There is a lot of truth in what CaptainMax says. I posted the "Morel/Tree"
article just for information purposes. What do I think? Its a bunch of crap.
He also hit the truth about charcoal.......only Activated charcoal is much
better than charcoal left over from a fire. Activated charcoal is a very powerful
tool to use when trying to form Sclerotia.....not only for morels, but for any
mushroom that has the power of producing sclerotia. I probably should not
have released that, as it will be used by commercial producers for Mex. and
Tamp. sclerotia. They never give any credit.......just like Ps. tampanensis,
it was I that released it back to the public after being held for many years by
only about 5 people. I did this to ensure the species would live on. This was
accomplished of course but it saddens me when I see people selling the Stones
like in The Netherlands. They would not be able to sell them if it was not for
me. I guess the real story on this mushroom has just been overlooked. Over
the past couple of decades I have got some nice letters from home growers
thanking me. That was the real purpose, not for commercial production.
What ya gonna do? I guess I will survive....grin. Oh, and another thing
about growing Morels.....It has been found out that only certain strains do
well when cultivated. It appears, from cultures started from dried morels
that were cultivated, there are two distinct strains that grow together.
The mycelium even has different colors. One being light, the other being
dark. But when the two grow together, they produce morels very readily.
slp/fmrc

[AcidHorse]

I didn't know activated charcoal occurred naturally in eastern hardwood forests.
I should have looked more closely at that clay+compost.
Sounds like a typical scifi movie theme. Except the one similar to the Dark Crystal.
Good vs Evil. Light vs Dark "mycelium".
LOL. laughable.

[slp]

I did not say activated charcoal was in the forest.........I said it was better
than the charcoal left over from fires.....slp/fmrc

[AcidHorse]

You are off on a tangent literally, for one
morels growing on burnt ground is a situation common with black morels. That is a totally different situation and morel.
Yellow morels grow without burnt woods. Growing on the northeastward declining slopes of hills in the eastern hardwood forests.
Every spring.