Amanita Muscaria: one seeker's observations [merged]

[max]

Actually I believe amanita's have a much longer history of use than cubs and I don't see where 1/2 gram dried will do anything at all. Usually several grams dried are needed for a mild trip. If you mix 1/2 gram with regular cub dose you're going to have a cub trip, not an amanita trip. Experts shcmexperts....lol!

[pskovinsky]

Originally Posted by mike illogical

<snip>as these mushrooms are highly poisonous and not meant to be ingested straight, these mushrooms taken in the wrong way will kill you. Other names are fly agaric, death angel and you get the picture hopefully.

That is straight up misinformation, there ISN'T a "Death Angel" mushroom, there are "Destroying Angels", which are a solid white mushroom, and "Death Caps", which are a tan/yellow/light brown sort of color, generaly. Both of them (destroying angels and death caps) will destroy your liver in short order, leading to a highly unpleasant death. They are generaly potent enough to kill you for eating a single mushroom or less, not something to mess around with.

Nowhere have i found even a reference to someone dying from muscarias, they aren't toxic in that sense.
Highly unpleasant, you bet, but they won't kill you.

[Soliver1]

Destroying angels will kill you for sure, especially as one is led to believe that the
poison has run it's course and then a couple days later your liver and kidneys shut down.
They are related to muscaria, but I've never heard of anyone dying from eating an
amanita.

You may WISH you were dead, what with the penis needles and all, but they're not
recorded as being lethal.

[lsd_freak]

amantia trips are not all that great. the visuals are mostly vision type insted of colors and stuff morphing, if you get any visuals at all, which most dont. prepair for the swets, and the chills. when i took some, my hair felt really uncomfortable and i spent the night debating weither to shave my head. its not at all a copairable trip to your standard magic mushroom.

[~Hippie3]

the general consensus from even the hardcore oldtimers
is that damn few people ever do amanitas more than once.
the few who talk positively about amanitas
have often never actually done any.

"Experts shcmexperts....lol!"

It was James Arthur who said to mix 1/2 gram of Amanita with a regular cube dose. I wouldn't know. I hate puking.
RR

[~Hippie3]

mr. arthur may just want more folks to eat amanitas
since they are of course his main focus in his writings
so maybe he figured that piggy-backing a below-threshold dose
of amanitas onto real psillis would increase their popularity
as folks confuse the effects of the one for the other.

[max]

Amanita's are a HUGE family that contains mushrooms that are both deadly and gourmet. Amanita muscaria are neither although they actually do smell quite nice and I know a guy who ate some with gypsys in Hungary. Nobody got high or sick off them because they were eaten as part of a large feast. If you want to get high then of course you would do it on an empty stomach. As some have mentioned, the juice which forms when drying is also good to drink.

[BuckarooBanzai]

To start, most of this is opinion based on personal experience and research. I state this now, because I hate peppering a lengthy document with IMOs and IMHOs. Please assume that any statement of “fact” I make is, in fact, just an opinion posing as a fact (what is a fact, after all, but an opinion with a consensus?). So, take this with a grain of salt unless you are preparing to consume Amanitas. If you ARE planning to imbibe (especially if you think you want to do a lot) please give my words some consideration…

This paragraph is NOT opinion. All references to Amanitas in this document speak of Amanita Muscaria var. Muscaria (the Fly Agaric). The Amanita family is huge with some being DEADLY POISONS responsible for more mushroom related deaths than any other species. The most deadly mushroom on earth, statistically, is Amanita Phallodies (the Death Cap or Destroying Angel). This mushroom contains horrible poisons called Amatoxins (cyclopeptides) which first kill your liver and then kill you…slowly…over the course of 3-5 days…by drowning your cells in their own waste – waste your now dead liver can’t remove from your blood stream. NOT a good way to go. Cyclopeptide poisoning can only be treated if diagnosed within a few hours of consumption with massive doses of penicillin and silymarin (a flavinoid in Milk Thistle and your liver’s best friend). Early treatment is not a guarantee of survival, however. Early treatment just ups your chance of survival. The ONLY known therapies for a late stage diagnoses (more than 8 hours after consumption) are prayer and a liver transplant. If you aren’t prepared to bet your life, don’t eat any mushroom which has not been positively identified. Even experienced mycologists gathering a favorite variety for the umpteenth time will verify with spore prints. Mutations and physical variations are facts to be very aware of when gathering wild mushrooms.

There is a ridiculous amount of bad, misleading and simply wrong information about Amanitas on the ‘Net. This misinformation comes from all sides: from the unfortunately overdosed screaming “POISON!” to the shady salesmen screaming “LEGAL ENTHEOGEN!” Amanitas are NOT poisonous and they are legal to purchase/own everywhere except Louisiana (not to eat, however – check your local laws). Amanitas are “legal entheogens.” So are nutmeg, dextromethorphan, Datura, loco weed, mescal beans, aesthetic starvation, sensory deprivation and smashing yourself repeatedly in the forehead with a ball peen hammer. The question to ask your self is NOT “what can get me there?” The question is “how much am I willing to pay for the ride?” Amanitas will get you there but those coins you are saving for the ferryman won’t come close to covering your toll.

The Amanita experience can be most delightful or most terrifying (or both), depending on set/setting and DOSAGE. Therefore, I am writing this up to present my personal experiences and perhaps shed a little light on this topic. If you intend to take on Amanita as an ally, please take heed my warnings to start SMALL (and stay the hell away from Pantherinas).

I am highly biased because I am a huge fan of the Amanita Muscaria mushroom. Everyone I have personally worked with and dosed (7 folks) is also a fan. Please be aware, my dosage weights may NOT be the same as yours. I’ve worked extensively with only a few people who are all very experienced psychonauts; my dosage estimates should NOT be trusted as an absolute gauge of YOUR experiences.

The net is full of stories of folks who ate way too much way too soon and very much regretted ever hearing of Amanita Muscaria (there is, after all, a REASON these fuckers are still legal – and labeled by most mycologists as poison). I remember one story about a guy who ate a whole ounce of dried Amanitas. Poor bastard! I have personally experienced “too much” and can report that it is a VERY VERY VERY harsh way to “get there” which most people won’t/can’t enjoy. There are far more terrifying things out there than “ego death” and Amanita will wave those things in your face for fun. Also, Heroic doses of Amanita carry an INTENSE body load. Start small and move forward cautiously and respectfully or you WILL have a bad time. Also, please realize that Heroic doses of any psychedelic simply aren’t for everyone. This is doubly true with Amanita Muscaria. I, personally, know only one other person who digs the big doses (and he is a truly twisted fucker – like me). Hippie mentioned something about the Datura experience being similar to hanging from metal hooks in a sweat lodge. The Amanita experience runs a close second in terms of pain/pleasure.

As a personal aside, never trust any “dealer” farther than you can throw him/her. If you choose to trust your source (hey, he’s an old friend!), remember that he/she has a source too. Would your “old friend” sell you misidentified fungus/poison? Probably not if he KNEW it was poison (then again, just how greedy/broke is this person?). What if, however, he just heard it was good but hasn’t yet sampled them? Street drugs, at there best, are unregulated for quality and dosage. Street drugs at there worst could be ANY powder/crystal a broke junkie thought he/she could pass off as compound X. Ajax and Inositol (with a few drops of Benzene) look, feel and smell like good coke. Until you don’t get a buzz and your nose starts gushing blood, that is. Fake coke will piss you off and maybe give you a little nose bleed. Misidentified mushrooms could very easily kill you.

I’ve heard it stated that mushrooms from web vendors are “two steps above rat poison.” Vendor mushrooms are generally not a great idea but can be acceptable with Amanitas, due to their super distinctive look, smell and feel. At the very least, you can be reasonably certain that vendor Amanitas are what they claim to be (once dried, the red isn’t quite as bright, but the coloration and the white spots are still very obvious). But you can’t spore print dried fungus and you can’t grow out Amanitas anyway, so you can never be 100% certain without lab analysis. Caveat emptor!

I recommend going out and finding your own but for some this isn’t realistic. Some dwell in cities or areas where Amanitas can’t be found growing naturally. If you live in a good area and are simply too lazy to go looking, high dose Amanitas are probably not for you. This shroom will very decidedly bitch slap those just looking to “trip out.” I will reiterate: high doses of this mushroom are HARSH on the body and the mind. Nobody would classify a Heroic Amanita dose as “fun” or a “party drug” unless they were certifiably insane (or hoping to profiteer from your naiveté).

If, for whatever reason, you choose to dose heavily with vendor mushrooms, meditate with them first. Spread them out and feel their energy. Use a smudge stick or incense to purify them and ask them for the visions you need. If you can get over the western “cheesiness” of meditating with dried mushrooms and genuinely connect with the fungus, you will improve it’s efficacy dramatically. Mental preparation and a ritualistic approach will have a hugely positive effect on your set/setting. You can also just grind them up and munch them, but you will be missing a VERY important point. You may also barf up a lung.

If meditating, chanting and waving smudge sticks over dried mushrooms you bought through the mail sounds goofy, Amanitas are NOT right for you as an entheogen. Small/medium doses work for anybody, even the “straights” out there, as a tonic and euphoriant. Medium/high doses are a great party drug for talking and interacting, though you will get a bit clumsy. Truly entheogenic doses, however, are genuinely terrifying (even to the highly experienced psychonaut). Do you really dig Salvia? If so, you might like Heroic doses of Amanita. Did Salvia scare you into not wanting to be in the same room as it again? If so, stay far away from more than 9 grams of dried Amanita. If you find Salvia frightening/intimidating then an Heroic dose of Amanita stands a good chance of putting you in an emergency room, on a psych ward or BOTH. Another good comparison is Datura/Belladonna/Mandrake/Brugmansia. If you enjoy gnawing Jimson Weed or slurping a flying potion, Amanita Muscaria is waiting with open arms.

Please be aware that not even your twisted narrator is willing to mix Amanitas and Jimson Weed. Way too much body load.

If you need a solid reason not to eat a boatload of Amanita, let it be this: Terrence McKenna didn’t care for them. Hippie doesn’t care for them. Almost NOBODY cares for heroic doses of this fungus. On the flip side, Jack Herrer loves them and credits Amanitas, Psilocybes and Ganja with getting him over a terrible stroke which left him half paralyzed...

This is no joke, folks. Heroic doses of this mushroom can seriously screw with your mind and body in a way that no other psychedelic has prepared you for (except, perhaps, the aforementioned Datura). I don’t want to sound preachy or hokey but these are a true Shamanic sacrament and, as such, they demand a high price for admission. An entheogenic dose of Amanita Muscaria, left to it’s own devices, will make you sweat a river and drool an ocean. It will make you so clumsy that even crawling becomes a chore. It will knock you unconscious and give you truly horrific dreams. It WILL try to convince you that you have consumed a poison and, if you believe it, it will do things to you that will make you wish for death. An entheogenic dose of Amanita requires significant body management and, subsequently, centers you strongly in the physical. No other entheogen I have used has such a strong physical component (not even Ecstasy). Quite the contrary, most of them divide the mind/spirit and body quite decisively, leaving the unfettered mind/soul to wander. This is NOT the case with Amanitas. You may go out of body, but you will still maintain bodily awareness (except while asleep).

Heroic doses of Amanita Muscaria are not things most people will enjoy or want to do again. “Overdose” is the theme of most of the bad trip reports on the ‘net and they all have a few things in common: terrible bodily side effects, thoughts of insanity and a desire to never repeat the experience. Sad but completely predictable. If the first time you ate cubensis shrooms you sucked down 15-20 dried grams, would YOU ever want to do it again? VERY few people “enjoy” extreme psychedelic experiences. Even those who really dig an 8-10 g psilocybe trip are in for a major shock with a big dose of Amanita. The “buzz” from Psilocybes is UTTERLY different than the “buzz” from Amanitas. These mushrooms are NOT interchangeable.

An IMPORTANT note: Amanita Pantherinas are NOT just super potent Amanitas. The Pantherina experience is one that should only be undertaken after many successful Muscaria voyages (even then…wow…). Pantherina can and will destroy you, given a chance. If the Amanita teacher is “mildly annoyed” by your intrusions, the Pantherina teacher is OPENLY PISSED. Amanita Pantherina is truly a sleeping giant. Also, unlike Muscaria, Pantherina looks very similar to the highly toxic Amanita Phallodies (especially mature, sun bleached Pantherinas). NEVER TRY TO GATHER PANTHERINAS UNLESS YOU KNOW EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE DOING. Identify all Pantherina’s by spore print as well as physical characteristics (get a good field guide with color plates of fruit & spores). A sober guide is essential if you want to experience high dose Pantherina. I’ve done them a few times and they scare the living
shit out of me. I’ll stick with Muscaria 99% of the time, thank you very much. Pantherina is very much a “special occasion” thing, far more so than Muscaria. As a friend once told me, “He who comes to Muscaria unprepared for the experience will be made into a sweaty, twitchy fool. He who comes to Pantherina unprepared is lucky to escape with his sanity.”

Simply put, an Heroic dose of Amanita Muscaria (14+ grams) is just about as “pleasurable” as your first DMT breakthrough. High doses of this mushroom are NOT fun (except, perhaps, in retrospect). I know this will intrigue some of you, but it really shouldn’t. This is not bullshit propaganda cranked out by a society that wants you to stay a nice little consumer cog. This is personal advice from a psychonaut who wants you to stretch your mind just as far as you can (and perhaps a bit “further…”). Said psychonaut would, however, like to see you actually enjoy the process!

When you are gathering Muscarias in the wild, make note of the location as you will probably find them there again when conditions are favorable (I use a GPS device with memory). Also, keep your eyes open for the King Bolete (who loves the same kinds of conditions as Muscaria). King Bolete contains no psychoactive chemicals, but tastes WONDERFUL. Thump each fungus on top with your finger several times before harvesting; this helps to release spores and improve your chances of finding them here next season. Unopened caps are slightly more potent but opened caps are FAR larger (under the right conditions, Amanitas get dinner plate huge). The difference in net quantity of good stuff between a 10g baby and a 200g adult far outweighs the baby having slightly more per gram of mushroom. Let the Amanita complete it’s lifecycle and fulfill it’s mission of dropping spores – come back in a few days and harvest the much larger, mature fungus (you can’t trip the day you gather anyway).

Siberian Shaman claim that no metal should be used to harvest (or indeed ever touch) the Amanita. These same Shaman also caution against picking a “family” (a group of Amanitas) without asking them first. If you wish to follow Shamanic tradition in your seeking, follow Shamanic example in your gathering. What could it hurt? You can call it a placebo effect or you can call it preparing your set…the end results are the same.

When you find a group of Amanita’s in the wild, resist the urge to immediately jerk them all out of the ground. Sit down with them and soak up their unique energy for a few minutes. They are a truly beautiful fungus with very unique vibes. Ask for their permission to gather them and invite them to give you the experience you need (not the experience you “want”). If they don’t give permission, if you feel any negative energy at all, DON’T pick this clutch for high dose usage. They WILL punish you. A truly focused and Shamanic gathering process will be rewarded by the Amanitas with a more intense and spiritual experience. If you have ever had an Ayuashca brew prepared by a Curandero and consumed as part of a ritual (vs. one cooked and slurped just to “trip out”) you know exactly what I mean. As has been said, “Anybody can cook out the chemicals but only a Curandero can coax out the plant’s soul.”

Fresh Amanitas will not get you off until you dry them (some suggest an open oven at 180F-200F). If you use the oven method, the fungi will “sweat” after a little while. The sweat should be collected because it contains much “good stuff.” Some people recommend pouring the sweat back over the shrooms, but this just makes them take far longer to dry. I do not recommend oven drying as Amanita’s good stuff is sensitive to heat. Drying them in the sun is also not recommended, because of the heat. If you can’t wait a week for them to dry properly, you probably shouldn’t be tampering with Amanitas anyway.

There are as many ways to dry mushrooms as there are species of mushrooms. I simply lay mine on a window screen in front of a box fan for 5 days and then transfer them to a gallon Ziploc with a tyvek bag of silicone desiccant. They will be hard and crunchy within 2-3 more days. Amanitas are much larger and denser than Psilocybes and take a good bit longer to dry properly. Amanitas, properly dried and stored, will maintain potency for many years. Just remember: high temperatures destroy the good stuff in Amanitas AND Psilocybes. Never dry with heat unless you want to destroy a portion of the active ingredients.

Grind up your whole batch to a fine powder and then stir the powder thoroughly to homogenize. This will give you a very uniform material whose activity level can be initially gauged and finally predicted. Go through a low dose test regimen with ALL new batches. Amanitas vary quite wildly in potency, depending on harvest time, size, location and the gatherer’s mindset (spring’s fruits are “better” than fall’s, IMHO). Powdered mushrooms should be kept in a sealed container with a little bag of desiccant or they will reabsorb moisture from the air. I use a coffee grinder to powder my shrooms, but I have seen a blender work pretty well. Food processors don’t seem to work well at all. They just bounce the fungi around.

Bear in mind that grinding up your fungi can easily be interpreted as “intent to consume.” Consuming a “recognized poison” can subsequently be interpreted as attempted suicide. Attempted suicide can put you behind bars for quite a while in many jurisdictions. Attempted suicide can also get you involuntarily committed to a psychiatric institution. Be aware of your local laws!

Purchase a digital scale accurate to .1 gram. You can VERY accurately dose with Amanita dust if you have a decent scale (beware predictions with very large doses – surprises abound in the land of Soma). Make yourself aware of the legal implications before acquiring such a scale. Owning a .1 gram scale almost always makes simple possession into intent to distribute (especially if you have empty gel caps, empty baggies and/or other illegal drugs stored with said scale). Calibrate/check your scale regularly, especially if it is inexpensive. If you don’t want to spend big bucks on a standardized brass weight set, just remember that a shiny, new U.S. nickel weighs exactly 5 grams (ten of them make a 50g standard!). Try to use shiny, new nickels. Tell the bank you are a collector and want uncirculated coins. Scratches and oxidation can change a nickel’s weight significantly. Also be aware that a large change in temperature or elevation will affect your scale. Always calibrate/verify accuracy before using a cheap digital scale.

I love weird mushroom flavors and dried Amanitas still taste bad to me. Dried Amanitas smell like dried fish snacks (yummy) but they don’t taste like dried fish! As my wife says, they taste like “mouldy, four day old, pickled ASS.” Fresh Amanitas won’t get you off (too many WILL make you sick) but they taste lovely! Seriously, fresh Amanita Muscaria is one of the tastiest mushrooms out there (barring Morels). The flavor is full and rich, almost meat like, but still delicate. They make a marvelous addition to virtually anything but are absolutely fantastic in sauces. I have to agree with the other poster who said they don’t mix well with chilies. I would expound that they don’t seem to mix well with any highly spicy ingredients (mixing them with a strong curry is quite gross, leaving a metallic aftertaste). If you want to eat a bunch of fresh Amanitas, cut them into ½ inch strips and par boil in mildly acidic water for about 5 minutes. That will remove virtually all the bad stuff (because it’s highly water soluble). Even mycologists who don’t believe in tripping and call Amanitas poison are known to eat them parboiled (as I said, they taste fantastic).

To “get off” on Amanitas I recommend making a batch of tea, filtering/tossing the grit and holding your nose while gulping it down. Like a shot of cheap whiskey, the worst taste comes from letting the fumes get into your sinuses. When you make tea, boil the water first then remove it from the heat. NEVER boil Amanita tea as high temperatures quickly destroy the good stuff. Personally, I like my tea with a healthy squirt of lemon juice and a big dollop of honey. Honey is optional, but tea made with lemon is more active (because of the acidity). If you are into psychedelic cooking, I wholeheartedly recommend adding a little Amanita to your next batch of ganja treats. Not only does the Amanita body buzz synergize wonderfully with THC, it potentiates it’s activity nearly two fold. Start small with Amanita laced munchies! My personal favorite for space cookies is a combination of ganja butter, Amanita powder, Kava extract, Valerian root and Milk Thistle. Plenty of nutmeg/all spice/cinnamon will help conceal the more intense flavors of Amanita and Valerian. If anybody out there knows a recipe which effectively covers the flavor of dried Amanitas, PLEASE SHARE!!!

To dose Amanitas, I suggest you start small with 1-4 grams and give it four hours to come to full strength. Take notes on what you feel and when you feel it. My experience has been that some people are markedly more sensitive to Amanitas than others. Females, also, seem to have a slightly higher sensitivity. One very overweight friend of mine is an Amanita hardhead, though, requiring nearly 250% of the amount I use (he, however, is a hardhead/extremist with everything else as well – he can only feel 20X Salvia after almost a full bowl and he considers 4 hits of LSD a mild trip). The point is start small and move ahead cautiously. Amanita can (and probably will) surprise you at least once in a major way. For whatever reason, this fungus seems to enjoy bitch slapping “dabblers” who eat a bit too much. Psilocybes are forgiving – Amanitas are NOT.

In my experiments, I have noted only a very small tolerance effect even with daily use. Regular doses of Amanita actually seem to lower tolerance. Once you’ve “been there” it takes less to “get there” the next time. This is ESPECIALLY true with high dose experiences. After years of regular use, a high dose for me is 6-8g. 10+, at this point, is super intense (I still do it, but I’m a glutton for punishment).

For those who want to know, I consider 24g – 8g every hour for three hours – a “perfect” heroic dose FOR ME. This is NOT a dose I would recommend, however. 24 grams of dried Amanita can make the Ayuashca purge seem kind of tame.

Amanitas take a while longer than Psilocybes to achieve maximum impact and last longer, as well. Give an Amanita dose 3.5 hours before you judge it, especially at first. Experienced psychonauts will recognize the mild onset clues at about 20-30 minutes (the first thing for me is always noticing the “sparklies” followed quickly by mild “coming up” anxiety). The inexperienced should not mix Amanita with any other psychedelic (Amanitas potentiate everything, it seems). The trip is simply too harsh, inescapable, inevitable and “loop like.” Salvia or, preferably, DMT at the peak of an Amanita trip is chief amongst the harshest learning experiences I’ve ever been through. If you can imagine arriving on the elves’ doorstep while still maintaining full bodily awareness, you have an idea what I mean. Ever FELT your molecules unravel?

I do NOT recommend high dose Amanita for your first entheogenic experience, though lower doses are a great introduction to psychedelics for anyone. Final warning: people who seek a second heroic Amanita experience are FAR less common than people who enjoy extreme Salvia or DMT experiences. “Seeing God” with these mushrooms is not a particularly pleasant experience. Amanita is FAR less tolerant of “dabblers” than the Psilocybes. Please note how often I have reiterated this point…


Most mushroom field guides qualify Amanita Muscaria as poisonous. Amanita Muscaria is NOT a poison in doses of less than a couple hundred grams – in 300+ years there is only one “suspected” death (a small child who ate quite a few of them) and one coma/death (but he ate over a hundred of them for dinner). If you start to fixate on the “poison shroom” myths, you WILL start to feel poisoned. JUST REMEMBER: going to the emergency room can turn a bad trip into a hellish one. Especially when the only thing they can do for you is shoot you up with sedatives and atropine (there is no treatment for acute Amanita poisoning more than 4 hours after ingestion and you won’t even get the atropine “come down” until they are CERTAIN what kind of mushroom you ate). As a final note on this “poison” myth please remember that acute Amanita poisoning doesn’t manifest for 12-16 hours (then it comes as nausea, vomiting and severe diarrhea). If you experience ANY of these symptoms the next day, see a doctor immediately as you may have eaten a toxic mushroom. SOME diarrhea is normal, especially if you drink alcohol with them. Severe/uncontrollable diarrhea should be evaluated by a medical professional immediately. Dehydration can kill you pretty quickly.

So, these are my experiences and MY OPINIONS. Your mileage may (and probably will) vary. All I can say for certain is that nobody I’ve given low/medium doses of Amanita has disliked them. Quite the contrary, I haven’t met anybody yet who didn’t enjoy low/medium dose Amanitas (except for the taste, EVERYBODY hates the taste). Small doses (1-4g dried) of these guys are an energizing tonic that mixes well with anything. Medium doses (5-9g dried) are a good buzz with mild cosmic overtones that make anything more enjoyable. Large doses (10-14g dried) can be a cosmic blast if the “side-effects” don’t annoy you and ruin it. Heroic doses (14+g dried) can be a horrible mistake you will remember/regret for many years to come. If the worst that happens to you on a Heroic dose is nausea and drooling, count yourself fortunate!

MY conclusions: small/medium/high dose Amanitas are quite enjoyable with physical side effects and potentiation that ramp up exponentially with dosage. Medium/high doses do NOT mix well with other psychedelics (unless you are looking for a very intense/frightening experience). Heroic doses are NOT FUN TO ANYONE, MY SELF INCLUDED. You will not laugh (but you may scream) and nothing will melt/morph. There are no pretty visuals with Amanita, just very intense visions. IF you hallucinate, it is more likely you will see the face of death/God (and once you see it, it can NOT be forgotten and will, in fact, be visible everywhere). Amanita is a very powerful teacher which is difficult to make an ally. Stick with low/medium doses and you will love them. Take a Heroic dose and, most likely, you’ll regret ever having taken physical form for at least a few hours.

Just remember: the vicious and vindictive child “god” of christianity was, most likely, originally conceptualized by people in the throws of an Heroic Amanita experience. That (and the fact that McKenna didn’t care for them) should tell you all you need to know.

“Thus spake Zarathustra.”

[Beast]

Sooo.... it appears that your font color is black. Which would be fine if the background wasn't also black. Unless its just me?

[BuckarooBanzai]

I thought it was just my display! Just having fun getting used to the new software....

the amanita muscaria that induces visions isnt the U.S.A varity its the siberain varity that does. the ones your most likely to find in the USA or going to simply cause raving and deleruim . this mushroom is the reason that i got into this hobby in the first place . when i watched close friends prepar and eat them.and witnessed there reactions .i knew at that moment . id learn every thing that i could on mushroom and there toxins .
later VII

[BuckarooBanzai]

I must politely, but firmly, disagree with you. The Amanita Muscaria mushroom contains Ibotenic Acid/Muscimol in quantities determined by environmental conditions, not by the continent on which they were grown. The myth that US Amanitas are somehow more poisonous or less psychoactive than European Amanitas has never been demonstrated in a pharmacological study (none I am aware of, anyway). Please see:

http://tacethno.com/info/amanita/amuscout.txt

You will note that the study very infrequently differentiates the mushroom's source continent. If there were some significant continental variance present, it would most assuredly be spelled out in the text. That is the nature of the scientific method as it applies to publishing findings.

To believe that US Amanitas do not contain the same compounds as their European cousins is to believe that the US Amanita Muscaria is a different sub species than the European variety. This is simply not the case. Amanita Muscaria v. Muscaria is the same mushroom, with the same active ingredients, no matter where it grows. It IS true, however, that the percentage content of those active ingredients can vary pretty widly based on environmental conditions. Those percentages can also vary in two mushrooms growing side by side from the same mycelial mat. This is why I advise taking all your Amanitas and grinding them up to achieve a homogenous mix (such a mix is FAR less likely to suprise you).

Speaking from personal experience, I can tell you that Northern California/Washington State Amanitas are just as effective as Siberian/Latvian Amanitas. I have also had African and Japanese Amanita Muscaria which were active and quite usable. I have not, personally, experience Swedish/Finnish fungi, but I'd bet big money they work exactly the same way.

The myth about American Amanitas being more poisonous/less visionary is pure propganda. This myth is from the same people who brought us gynecomastia (that's boobs on guys), chromosome damage and hippies hooking kids on LSD with "blue star tattoos." Some of their more current scare stories are gateway drugs, schizophrenia/depression/insanity and A-motivational syndrome. These concepts are all BULLSHIT PROPOGANDA with no peer reviewed clinical evidence to support them.

Drug warriors...HAH!

Unless, perhaps, you have some evidence to the contrary you would like to present? I'm always open to new information...

[~Hippie3]

i've seen guys with boobs...

[shedthemonkey]

so...

I have seen the Yellow and Orange versions and even sporeprinted a few. Do you have an opinion on any differences in the Aminita colors? And you talk of using all of the flesh, while some talk about only using the skin? Myth?

Not sure I will ever actually do these as they sound very unplesant. Me loves me some Cubensis as all friendly and loving if respected. Aminita sounds like riding a tiger.

[the_chosen_one]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

i've seen guys with boobs...

You been peekin' in my windows again Hip?

[the_chosen_one]

Originally Posted by shedthemonkey

so...

I have seen the Yellow and Orange versions and even sporeprinted a few. Do you have an opinion on any differences in the Aminita colors? And you talk of using all of the flesh, while some talk about only using the skin? Myth?

Not sure I will ever actually do these as they sound very unplesant. Me loves me some Cubensis as all friendly and loving if respected. Aminita sounds like riding a tiger.

More like riding several tigers all at once shed. A few things i know by personal experience (don't have any written back up on this handy) Never eat the white meat. It is almost always full of bug larvae. Yellow and orange are no no's. Dark red is best. And not to argue with Seven whom I respect and love very much but around the PNW (Washington coast to be exact) there are excellent quality Amanita Muscaria. Only in the coastal regions though. Inland Ami's are not good at all. Never mess with a Panther. Not even if one is used to Muscaria. Pantherina's are very dangerous. Skin color gives no indication of potency. Also very toxic. Hope this makes some sense. I was only interupted on this train of thought about twenty times!

Peace TCO

Oh yeah, 10g is a good starter dose. Never exceed 15g.

page 539 of the national audubon society field guide to north amirican mushrooms . by gary h lincoff.
"the fly agirics of north amirca cause deluiruim and raving , and profuse sweating . unlike its siberian relitive this induces no visions ". they dont get you high they make you crazy.
later VII

[BuckarooBanzai]

Shed: The yellow and orange (Amanita Muscaria v. Formosa) are an odd little mutant kind of sub species. Very unpredictable. Some are potent, some almost inactive (my experience with Formosa is much more limited that my experience with Muscaria). If the concept interests you and Formosa seems to be calling, I would suggest giving them a try in small doses and moving up as seems fit. Do the grind/homogenize thing or be aware that one cap may make you drool while the next may simply taste crappy. There is a wide variance in potency with Formosa, which is why I’ve mostly stayed away. Sometimes, on a good excursion, they just sing out…but they are mostly ignored by me. I am very interested in any report you may have to post...especially if they seem to be calling… Personally, I have found Muscaria far more dependable.

I respectfully suggest avoiding Pantherina entirely.

That bright red skin is most assuredly more potent (try smoking it like water hash/crack/heroin...no direct flame on the good stuff or it burns up instead of vaporizing). Shorter acting effects, but quite enjoyable, none the less. It is, however, a royal pain in the ass to collect the skin. That pretty red stains the heck out of your fingertips while scraping - the skin doesn't just peel off, ya gotta scrape it (somebody earlier compared it to peeling a melon). Personally, I don't find the scraping to be worth it UNLESS you find a really sweet specimen which is already eaten up by bugs. For some reason, bugs will gnaw heck out of the gill area yet leave the "skin" virtually untouched. If your specimen is clean of bugs, I say chow the whole thing…waste not, want not, etc.

I have *heard* that the skins alone have less body load. This has not been my experience.

Give a small dose (1-4g) of them a try. I can just about guarantee you will dig them. Smaller doses are highly reminiscent of alcohol/opiates/tonics. They also have some remarkable anti-depressant qualities.

Riding the tiger is an EXCELLENT euphemism for Heroic doses. Maybe riding the tiger through a gauntlet while being pelted with broken glass…


The_chosen_one: Heh heh. Sounds like somebody else is a fan, eh? I can’t comment on the inland/shore variance. I’ve only gathered Amanita in Washington State twice and both times were in pine groves within sight of the ocean. I’ll have to check with my mail order buddy on where his are gathered, as his are primo tasty goodness and I’ve chowed them quite a few times. The_chosen_one, did you notice any physical variance in the inland fungi? Any flavor difference? My home area is way inland, but we get some *good* Amanitas around here. I couldn’t agree more that Panthers should be absolutely avoided.

10g as a starter? You have a stouter heart than me!


Xxxsevxxx: I don’t have a copy of the Audubon guide, nor can I find one online. I cannot comment on that particular quote other than to say that my experiences have been markedly different.

However, I can quote Gary Lincoff’s keynote address at the 1995 Telluride Mushroom Festival:

Full text: http://www.well.com/user/dpd/tell95.html
Quote: “ As for me, on Friday's foray, I had miserable luck for the most part, finding only the ubiquitous plain brown small mushroom. Until, slapping a mosquito, I looked around the back of a stand of fir trees and beheld a lone, magnificent red capped Amanita Muscaria. Many other, more experienced hunters had combed this area, but this mushroom revealed itself only to me.

I saved it for Saturday night, and brewed a little tea. It greatly enhanced my enjoyment of the Festival finale, with Stamets Weil and Abraham each delivering a short poetic address accompanied by a light show and atmospheric music by the New Alchemy Rhythm Band.
And as always, the Mushroom parade down main street (I brought claves; Carolyn wore a special decorative mushroom cap) and the tasting party were rousing successes. The mushroom strudel was to die for. “

I humbly propose that Mr. Lincoff’s description of consuming Amanitas gathered in Colorado is in rather diametric opposition to his description of American Amanitas “caus[ing] deluiruim and raving , and profuse sweating.” Quite the contrary, he speaks of only one cap as having been saved for the festival finale and having “greatly enhanced [his] enjoyment…” No mention of sweating or delirium. No mention of it having made him crazy.

To me, this quote is a classic Amanita journey, directly in agreement with my personal experiences. Mr. Lincoff sought Soma, quested until that which he sought was granted and consumed the fruit of his search later, when appropriate, as a personal sacrament with directed intent. Subsequently, he had a damn good time. Set/setting. Placebo effect. Shamanic manifestation. Call it what you will, it doesn’t sound (to me) like delirium.

Does the Audubon guide define Amanita Muscaria as a poison or edible?
I again suggest that this “American Amanita Bad” concept is a myth based on propaganda. I again state plainly that the myth does not jibe with my personal experiences or the experience of those I’ve dosed. This is why I call it myth and dispute it’s factual basis.

I apologize for being pissy, but I am very sensitive on this subject. My personal experience, time and again, is that American Amanitas are most excellent. I do not believe you have to pay big bucks for imported fruits when you can gather the exact same mushrooms in the woods around your house. I further believe that the process of seeking them out greatly enhances the Amanita experience. Therefore, I must humbly disagree with you, though I respect your opinion and right to express it.


Hippie: You, sir, are just a bit of a smartass, no??? LOL!!!

[viraljimmy]

Interesting. But I am curious.
What is the guys with boobs myth?

[~Hippie3]

i think he's referring to the notion that smoking weed will make you grow boobs

[~Hippie3]

Hippie: You, sir, are just a bit of a smartass, no??? LOL!!!

perhaps just a bit
but hey,
that beats being a dumbass eh ?

[BuckarooBanzai]

One of the older and loonier “Reefer Madness” scare tactics was that smoking marijuana causes gynecomasita (boobs on guys). If you Google “gynecomastia marijuana” you’ll see a multitude of sites still spreading this myth. What you won’t find is anyone citing clinical evidence that demonstrates a direct causal link between this phenomena and smoking dope. Quite the opposite is true: field studies in Jamaica have found NO evidence of gynecomastia, decreased testosterone levels or lowered sperm motility in heavy marijuana users.

Some other marijuana urban myths:
Marijuana causes permanent mental illness (specifically schizophrenia and suicidal depression). For whatever reason, this old chestnut is really popular again, despite the fact that even the DEA’s manipulated clinical data is hazy at best.

Marijuana affects short term recall because it kills brain cells.

Marijuana is a gateway drug which causes users to graduate to “hard” drugs.

Marijuana is cut/adulterated/dusted with PCP/heroin to make it more addictive.

Marijuana is physically addictive.

A joint has 5/10/15 times as much tar/nicotine as tobacco.

Psychedelic urban myths:
LSD contains strychnine as a cut, byproduct, preservative or because it “binds it to the paper.”

“Pushers” distribute LSD laced tattoos (Blue Star Tattoos) to school children to hook them on LSD.

LSD is stored/builds up in spinal fluids and/or fat cells.

Orange juice/vitamin C can enhance your trip (or the flipside, LSD use drains your body of essential vitamins).

Ecstasy burns up/uses your spinal fluids.

Anyone who has used psychedelics more than 5/7/10/15 times is legally defined as psychotic/criminally insane.

Psychedelics cause birth defects/fetal abnormalities; psychedelics cause chromosomal breakage.

The mushroom “trip” is actually just the body fighting off a poison.


I could go on and on, but those are my personal favorites which I have actually researched. All these statements are false. All these statements are disinformation and propaganda desired specifically to scare, mislead and intimidate. Reefer Madness is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of how far those who hold power are willing to go to “keep us down.”

Shut up, sit down, get back in line, bend over, and that plant will make you crazy. BULLSHIT I SAY!!!!!

Don’t even get me started on the REAL motivations behind religion and churches…

[the_chosen_one]

Originally Posted by BuckarooBanzai

The_chosen_one: Heh heh. Sounds like somebody else is a fan, eh? I can’t comment on the inland/shore variance. I’ve only gathered Amanita in Washington State twice and both times were in pine groves within sight of the ocean. I’ll have to check with my mail order buddy on where his are gathered, as his are primo tasty goodness and I’ve chowed them quite a few times. The_chosen_one, did you notice any physical variance in the inland fungi? Any flavor difference? My home area is way inland, but we get some *good* Amanitas around here. I couldn’t agree more that Panthers should be absolutely avoided.

10g as a starter? You have a stouter heart than me!

I can see why there is so much confusion of documentation on this. Sev is right, I've read that very same thing. Imo, it's really a two part high. The first part consisting of passing into a very deep slumber. This is the really scary part. Everything experienced in this state is delerium based. It can very dangerous. Never dose alone or in a group without having at least one person there who is not dosing. Main reason is in the delerious state one will sweat, convulse and even vomit at doseage levels of 10+ grams. One could choke on thier own vomit and never even know it. Also there is a small risk for those who have a week liver or kidney's. Because the toxins can build up so fast in ones body I would recommend at least 3 weeks between trips. Dose ten g five times in four weeks and one will notice more and more ill effects with every trip. This is just the physical aspect. I really don't recommend this mushroom for recreational use. At least not at the dose levells I speak of. Picture having all of your memories sucked out by the darkness. Thrown into a blender and then thrown back at you as you tumble thru a worm hole. Even that is not a valid description. This mushroom is really more of a tool for vision quest than it is for fun and dosing at high levels is not for the spiritually timid. The thing that makes it attractive though is the euphoric state experienced after waking from the delerious state. It's an undescribable feeling of joy as one walks or more like swims thru air that feels as if it is five times denser than it really is. This part is dangerous too. Equilibrium is highly affected and it would be quite easy to fall down. Mirrors will take on a new fascination and the two don't mix very well .

Yes I have noticed a difference between inland and shoreline specimens. The inland are far more unpredictable. Around here only the yellow and orange can be found inland. They do seem to produce more of the delerious side of the trip.

They all taste terrible to me. Usually we will quarter the caps and remove all of the white. Scraping is required near the end of the usually 3-4 day process. Allowing the skins to dry just a little will make them far easier to scrape imo. The skins are then dried for later use in tea.

Recreational use is accomplished at smaller doses with no passing out but once again I must warn against repeated use in a short period of time.

We collect specimens in the Grayland Beach area of Washington state that seem to be the best. I have also tried an Olympic Mountain strain which I will never touch again. The same would go for some of the specimens found around the Puget Sound region. Still by saltwater but a really nasty Ami.

So I can really see the reason for all the variance in reports. Perhaps the European vars do not give one the delerium of the North American var.

Peace TCO

if the buzz was worth it ! The fuzz whould have made it illicit already . a lot of the amintas contains Amantin a well known toxin in this genus . symptoms include stomach pain , nausea,vomiting,and mudd butt.symptoms persist for 1 or more days then they start to lessen then wham you start having renal faluire ,coma,then death . and some contain ibotenic acid and muscimol . (fly agiric and phalloides) with the A.phalloides having both of these toxins . the ibotenic and muscimol syptoms include dizziness,lack of cordnation ,delusions,staggering,deleruim,raving , muscle cramps ,spasms, and deep sleep/ near coma . go to the FMRC and look into the section where he puts all the known poisenings for the year . they describe (if they live threw it) what they went threw and none sound to enjoyable . but hay whatever floats your boat . ANYONE thinking of eating this genus .please!!!! .i urge you to read up on the mushrooms and there known toxins.
some mushrooms are just not worth the risk to catch a buzz .
later VII

[the_chosen_one]

I would have to agree with SeVeN in regards to this var. Yes Buckaroo I am a fan but I should be even more clear. My journeys with Ami's took place in the late 80's and then only for a few years. I'd be lying if I told you we weren't looking for the killer high but there were also spiritual reasons as well. Yeah Sev we were poisoning ourselves intentionally but only under the most controlled circumstances. Strict procedures were followed including fasting and meditation. Plus I was young and healthy then. I would not even consider walking with Ami today. I know it sounds crazy but hey, it was the 80's man. There was a lot more bizzare shit going on than what we were doing. 20+ trips under my belt and I only saw one gal puke. Still it doesn't mean that this is a safe var. I spent two times as the "designated driver" so to speak. Watching people under the influence can be a bit scary. Sometimes they start to flip around and do all kinds of strange things. Sweating is quite common. None of our borderline cult group had ever experienced anything worse. I just have to question some of the statements made in the books. There can be such a difference of potency and ill effects between specimens taken from areas only 30 miles apart. Makes me wonder if maybe over the years since the articles were written if the european version hasn't somehow come here and bred with the local vars. Or maybe the specimens that the authors refer to are just plain bad and they never found the cream of the crop. I've always had the same outlook regarding this var though it's a two part journey. I have a hard time picturing it any other way. Keep in mind also that I have never done less 10g.
I simply cannot deny someone the experience but I would also urge the utmost caution to anyone interested in this var. It can be treacherous in many ways. Notice I don't use them now.
Peace
TCO

[lithops3]

What is the proper method for drying Amanita muscaria? Heat or no heat on the dryer?

[slp]

Certain bands of the UV sunlight break Ibotenic Acid down to
Muscimol. This would be best for recreational use. If you want to extract the
Ibotenic Acid because of its great worth (Sigma Chemical Co. "isolated from
Amanita sp.............1 mg $73.45, several years ago), keep away from sun light
and high heat. Oh, in case you missed the worth, there are 1,000 mg's in just
one gram...........slp/fmrc

[Beast]

Well that's interesting. I thought heat also broke the ibotenic acid down to muscimol (and also mammalian digestive systems, but that doesn't help with drying)?

Also, what is ibotenic acid used for by such companies? Who can I sell it to? Are their standards really strict or is it easy to procure ibotenic acid (probably not due to the price listed...)??

[slp]

Ibotenic Acid is a fly toxin, and flavor enhancer. Any one who sells it, is a
place to sell it to. Down here in Florida, they only fruit for about 2 weeks.
Then, you have to wait until next year to collect any. Not that many people
collect them. Maybe that is changing, but the price still stays high. slp/fmrc

[BuckarooBanzai]

It has been my experience that any amount of heat in the drying process will degrade the mushrooms somewhat. High oven temps will severely degrade them. Boiling your tea will severely degrade it. There is no need to worry about breaking down the ibotenic acid when drying - your digestive tract will do a great job. Just air dry in front of a fan for 3-5 days and then toss them in a ziplock with some silicone dessicant. Amanitas take a lot longer to dry completely than pscilocybes.

Ibotenic concentrations in the Amanita family:
A. muscaria (L. ex Fr.) Hooker
0.03-0.1 % a,b
(25,27) A. muscaria(Fr.) S. F. Gray
0.0025 % a,b
(19) A. muscaria(Fr.) S. F. Gray var. muscaria
0.18%c,d
(23) A. muscaria var. formosa (Fr.) Sacc.
0.17%c,d
(23) A. muscaria var. alba (Peck) Coker
0.18%c,d
(23) A. strobiliformis (Paul.) Qu?l.
0.0015%a,b
(28) A. pantherinn (D.C.) Fr.
0.021%a,b
(19) A. pantherina (Fr.) Secr.
0.46%c,d
(23) A. pantherina-gemmata (intermediate form)
0.28%c,d
(23)

Here is a thread I wrote about dosing on Amanitas:
http://forums.mycotopia.net/showthread.php?t=5205 (Amanita Muscaria: one seeker's observations [merged])

[max]

Dry your amanita's at no higher than 150. You could just eat them and let your body heat do the conversion but then you'll experience the discomfort associated with the acid.

[BuckarooBanzai]

Thank you, Max, for that restatement. DON'T EAT FRESH AMANITAS! They taste really nice, but they will make you sick. The ONLY documented case of death from Amanita Muscaria poisoning is a dude who ate a bunch of them fresh (for the taste).

If you want to eat them fresh (again, YUMMY), just slice them into strips and parboil them for 15 minutes. All the bad stuff will go right into the water and you are left with a most delicious (and totally non psychoactive) fungus. Slap a bunch of them into a heavy cream sauce...your dinner guests will thank you!

[spyker]

haha I had a gynecomastia myself when I was 18/19 on one side. It was suspect side effect of pimple treatment (reacuttane spelling?) than I was on a year previously. hectic... so the dope i occasionaly smoked seemed minor!

I seen numerous fly agarics growing on a trip to a pine forest in the south of africa... Its all the same..

[spyker]

or not?? never ate em haha but they were the same species

[wovotom]

i can say i enjoyed my experience but i am glad i tried these AND DONT pick these wild unless you are highly experienced, you can get a good dosage for £15-30 depending on person

[EarleBeggin]

Hi Topiates,

You may remember me by the name as Banjojo, or Banjojojojo.

My friend brought me some Amanitas from the west coast. Only problem is He put them in a half pint jar with honey. He says they filled the jar when he put them in but now they are shrunk and floating on the top. I read that Amanitas are not active unless they are dried. Are these mushrooms ruined? Could they still be prepared in tea or something?

[max]

Amanita's should be prepared properly and this is done by drying them in a low heat of about 140. This converts one chemical to another and makes for a much more pleasant trip.

[~Hippie3]

Originally Posted by EarleBeggin

Hi Topiates,

You may remember me by the name as Banjojo, or Banjojojojo.

My friend brought me some Amanitas from the west coast. Only problem is He put them in a half pint jar with honey. He says they filled the jar when he put them in but now they are shrunk and floating on the top. I read that Amanitas are not active unless they are dried. Are these mushrooms ruined? Could they still be prepared in tea or something?

honey amanitas ?
that can't be good...

178620234-shroomieofdoomiesamanita1abc.jpg
photo by Hamurabi

[ulatek]

the only experience ive had with these mushrooms, me and a friend found some growing around an oak tree (i think it was oak) in his yard, they were yellow but obviously amanitas.. we ate all we could find, about 6-7 each. i felt like id gained weight,like my body was heavier.. and things seemed funnier although i didnt have the energy to laugh, before it went any further though i got very tired and went to sleep..nothing i could be sure about, it couldve jus been that i was worn out/tired.

[mycobri]

You are brave to eat the Formosa

[adnauseam]

Originally Posted by ulatek

the only experience ive had with these mushrooms, me and a friend found some growing around an oak tree (i think it was oak) in his yard, they were yellow but obviously amanitas.. we ate all we could find, about 6-7 each. i felt like id gained weight,like my body was heavier.. and things seemed funnier although i didnt have the energy to laugh, before it went any further though i got very tired and went to sleep..nothing i could be sure about, it couldve jus been that i was worn out/tired.

Yikes! Amazing you weren't harmed...

[BuckarooBanzai]

Formosa vary a lot in potency. A LOT. Very hard to predict worth a darn.

Formosas need to be dried before being eaten, though, just like the Muscarias. Eating them fresh is a good way to get an upset stomach but a bad way to trip.