Syrian Rue [merged]

[felixdgr81]

It seems to be a consensus that MAOI's in general can provide a stronger trip experience with cubenisis. We know that Syrian Rue is a mild psychedelic on its own. I am interested in creating some "super chocolates" using carefully controlled combinations of substances that would provide a superior trip by curbing some negative shroom effects (GI discomfort for example).

The second purpose of the super chocolates would be to intensify and augment the trip by the addition of other compounds, like hash oil, and in this case, syrian rue.

These chocolates would not be for distribution purposes. (personal experiment)

So the ingredient list I am planing to experiment with is as follows:

dried and ground shrooms (I'm thinking 3.5-4.0g per chocolate)
Ground Syrian Rue seeds
High grade hash oil
Aloe Pura XS complex (Fennel / Chamomile / Peppermint Oil / Pineapple / Aloe Vera 200:1 Concentrated Powder / Papain (from Papaya) / Bromelain.)

I am highly interested in feedback on this matter, does anyone see any "red flags" or whatnot? Additionally, I am unclear as to how much syrian rue is appropriate for a single dose when combined with shrooms. Any assistance is appreciated.

you'd definitly want to avoid any concentrated herbal extracts, too many chemicals interplay with the MAOI and you could easily end up regretting that experiment.
it takes about 3 grams of finely ground syrian rue per person to achieve MAOI effects.
ya might want to leave out the hash oil too,
smoke it instead.

[felixdgr81]

I appreciate the feedback Hip. When you say 3g of syrian rue, was this considering mixing with the shrooms, or standalone? The Aloe Pura as included as a digestive aid but that could be omitted. I have found that shroom chocolates and pastries and whatnot made with "pot butter" have provided a nice, well rounded trip while minimizing the "bugging out" effect you get from the shrooms. I havent tried the hash oil though, do you think this could have a potential "chemical interplay" with the syrian rue? Again, thanks for the feedback.

[jaybird]

That is a awesome experiment. Let us know how it turns out.

I think it you took a chocolate with 3grams of rue and 4grams of mushrooms...you wouldn't want or need anything else in the mix.

That would be about like an 8gram regular dose.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

I think it you took a chocolate with 3grams of rue and 4grams of mushrooms...you wouldn't want or need anything else in the mix. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

exactly.

[felixdgr81]

Wow! I should point out that I have never done the rue before, so I suppose I have underestimated the effect it would provide. I will definately leave out the hash oil in the first experement. I had thought hash oil in the first place because I enjoy smoking throughout the trip. Wow again. Thanks for the info!

be careful felix syrian rue and shrooms are two completely different feelings, im sure you know this, but may i ask if you have tried syrian rue yet? i thought i read that mixing MAOI'S with shrooms wasnt a good idea for the rookie tripper, not implying your a rookie tripper felix but i would suggest tryin the syrian rue by itself to make sure that you want that feeling mixed in with your shroom trip, i know shrooms trips can get intense (i usually eat about anywhere from 3.5 to 5.0grams of dried booms) and every one in a while on those trips i pass up on burning a pipe or hold off for 20 minutes till i am feeling a little more in control of whats going on and wait to fully come into it. Talk to Roo he has probally had similiar experience but be careful, once you've ingested something that potent its up to you to keep your cool.. Personally i always thought that the shrooms did the trick alone, and if you ever felt like you wanted more from them, i usually just eat more i dont like mixing and matching while im that done in from shrooms, but its not completely foreign for me to drop a valium (20) after my trip to stay nice and mellow and it helps keep me in a peaceful state of mind, alas not needing to add anything to my shroom trip always does me in. If you dont mind me asking what is your normal doseage and whats the largest amount of shrooms you've ever eaten if you dont mind me asking, because like I_AM said its gonna be close to the feeling of eating over a 1/4 ounce.. let us know how it works for ya man..It May be one of those bathtub trips for ya .

if mycotopia ever needs a guinie pig... lol you got one..

[felixdgr81]

I normally dose 5g dried and it seems that with the strains I have tried, that I could go for a bit more of a trip, but I find that the more I eat the longer the buzzy "after-effect" tends to last. That was the main reason for this experement, with a secondary purpose of curbing the digestive anomolies associated with eating a big pile of shrooms. I think I have decided to curb down the amount of mushies to about 2-3g per chocolate in the interest of keeping sane during the test run. Then I may try to play around with higher doses. I'm definately not interested in a "bathtub trip" though, I was hoping for "bathtub gin".

figure the rue
roughly doubles both
the effect and the duration
of the shrooms.

If you don't want to eat a whole pile of shrooms and want em to shorten the trip try making tea. Tea comes on way faster and harder but seems to go away quicker. Also can be a good bit easier on the stomach not having to atually eat a big pile. You can even flavor the tea with peppermint tea to help east tummy turns.

Don't combine chocolate with an MAOI. It's a good thing to leave out of your diet for a couple days before you ingest. Research food &amp; drug interactions and dosage of these dangerous alkaloids you want to experience.

And try it with just a couple grams of shrooms the first time. Better safe than sorry.

Try making a tea out of the syrian rue, but better is b. caapi. Use slightly acidic water (pH 5), as you would if you were preparing ayahuasca (look on ayahuasca message boards.) Don't boil it too hot, and can make three extractions of a proper dose (like 30g caapi/person) and evaporate them down to a smaller volume. Let it sit in a sealed bottle(s) in the fridge for a few days or a week for the stuff to settle, pour off the liquid.

Alternately, you can make mushroom liquor. I've heard it's easier on the digestion.

If you look, you shall find.

(Message edited by unclefester on February 12, 2005)

[Lazlo]

Agreed with I Am Me. Tea deffinately comes on harder in a shorter amount of time after the dose was taken. It's easier on the stomach and doesn't last as long as injestion of fungus alone. Tea's a lot of fun! In my opinion anyway.

[vp7]

The warning about chocolate and a maoi is valid, but I believe the ammount involved would not pose a risk. The following quote was taken from the erowid maoi vault:
"Chocolate - is safe to ingest for most patients, unless consumed in large amounts"
This definately sound like a worthwile experiment. I do have one suggestion. If you wish to avoid stomach discomfort, you must do a salt extraction of the rue seeds. This will eliminate chemicals in the seeds that would otherwise cause significant nausea. It is a simple process and can be found through erowid, and I think in the archives here. I may as well post a link:
http://www.erowid.org/plants/syrian_rue/syrian_rue _extraction2.shtml
I recently followed this process, and obtained about 3 grams of relatively pure alkaloids from about 4oz. of seeds. (yeilds could have been greater. I fu*!ed up, and lost some)

[morthos]

There's a list of things you shouldn't consume while under the effects of Syrian Rue; your body won't be producing the same acids in your stomach, so you won't be able to digest certain things.

Chocolate and coffee are on the list...there were several others as well. I may still have the info; I'll see if I still have it and post the details on this thread asap. The point is that consuming some things won't just invoke nausea, but could actually be dangerous. We take our digestive system for granted, but it protects us from chemical effects of things we eat everyday. Without such we can have serious problems.

I'm interested in trying Syrian Rue sometime; I hear it amplifies visuals. Where would someone get a supply?

"The combo of a MAO with chocolate can trigger a severe hypertensive crisis, paralysis, stroke, heart attack, or, possibley, a face to face conversation with Saint Peter concerning Death Tripping"
in rare cases so tread cautionsly

[felixdgr81]

"The combo of a MAO with chocolate can trigger a severe hypertensive crisis, paralysis, stroke, heart attack, or, possibley, a face to face conversation with Saint Peter concerning Death Tripping"

Alright then! Im not going to do this with chocolate, perhaps I would be safer mixing into a borrito or something. I appreciate the feedback though, safety first and all of that. This brings about a whole new meaning to the phrase "death by chocolate"!

[vp7]

Anyone with an interest in b-carbolines such as those in the rue or your ayahuasca should read this article.
http://www.maps.org/news-letters/v06n3/06332ott.ht ml
It it written by Jonathan Ott, and disputes the basic claim of maoi/tyramine toxic interactions. Most of the warnings, and food restrictions really only apply to patients taking courses of ireversable inhibitors such as marplan, and not a reversable maoi like the harmala alkaloids. These quotes from Ott:

"I have personally tempted fate, and ingested cheese, beer, chocolate, caffeine, nuts, dried fruit, etc. in the afterglows of my pharmahuasca and anahuasca experiences, with no ill effects whatever."

"we in fact have no evidence that B-phenethylamines [including tyramine] are rendered toxic by combination with single doses of B-carbolines"

If you're still scared away from chocolate, well, why don't you just put the goodies in gelcaps? Dosage would be easy to controll, and vary as necessary.

[vp7]

I would happily test this theory, by consuming a dose of alkaloids and a hershey bar, if not for the serotonin and norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors I am currently taking. I would likely die regardless of the chocolate. Any other brave souls out there?

[morthos]

I see the info at Erowid is better than what I had; look there. I've a foaf that ate chocolate with rue and got ill immediately &amp; vomited. I think he was fine after that...talked to him over a year ago.

vp, everybody's differant. What doesn't phase one person can kill another. It's far better to err on the side of caution with foods.

Dig the gelcap idea tho.

(Message edited by unclefester on February 13, 2005)

[disturbed]

I was just wondering what can be done to avoid discomfort w/syrian rue? Over the weekend I ate about 5 grams of rue 45 minutes prior to injesting 5 grams of mushies. I fasted the whole day as I didn't want to have a bad reaction w/any of the food that I ate. I'm no stranger to 10-15 gram shroom trips so I didn't feel eating 5 grams w/the MOAI would pose a problem. As far as the trip went it was pretty enjoyable other than the discomfort from the rue.

I felt extremely uncomfortable as soon as I started to trip, my head felt like it weighed 500 lbs and i could barely lift it up. I was basically glued to the couch for the rest of the evening b/c I could barely move my head around, it was extremely uncomforatable. I definitely felt the effects of the MOAI as I was tripping for much longer than any of my friends, who did not take it but in the future I think I'd rather just eat more caps.

This leads me to my next question... Do all MOAI's make you feel like this or is is it something Rue specific? I ask as I am very interested in trying ayahusca sometime in the near future, but not if it is going to make me feel so shitty. I wouldn't ever want to feel that shitty, especially if I was going to be on the insane trip that is supposed to be had by DMT.

[I_am_me]

I would say you took too much.

I've read many reports that 1.5-2 grams of rue is a good amount. Make sure you have an accurate scale. Also you can do a simple salt extraction.

5 grams of rue alone will give quite a buzz and what I've read about harmala/harmaline is that when its enough to make you "trip" on its own, its usually at a high amount. I'd say try just taking 1.5 or 2 grams next time and maybe try this tek:

http://mycotopia.net/discus/messages...tml?1102135522

[phalanx]

"in the future I think I'd rather just eat more caps."

Simplest route. It is easy to take too much rue. Very potent. I find 1.5-2g is plenty. I'd never take more than that again.

[Son of O'or]

"Do all MOAI's make you feel like this or is is it something Rue specific?"

No not all of them. My question is, in what form did you ingest the rue in? Dont eat the whole seed or even the ground ones.

Rue does not work in all people at doses of 1 or 2 grams. I have noticed wide variations in the potency of rue. I used extractions made from 10 grams of rue with little problem. The key is to extract it and only use the water soluable parts of the rue. The non water soluable parts WILL make you very sick. That is why Caapi works without making one so sick.

The first half of the tek "I am I am" posted works great, there is no need to get into the "separation of harmaline from harmine". The key is proper filtration.

[vp7]

Originally Posted by Son of O'or

The key is proper filtration.

i posted a few tips that might help with that.
http://forums.mycotopia.net/showthread.php?t=946 (Mimosa extraction (and rue crystals))
look to the bottom of the first post.

[phalanx]

I HAD A BRAINWAVE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The usual method of measuring rue is with a teaspoon. But they vary greatly in volume and are hard to level off consistently. A standard accurate way of measuring small volume is needed. Solution : a 10cc syringe!!!

I filled a syringe with seeds up to 10cc (tapped it to settle the seeds down). I weighed the seeds on my posh 0.1g scales and it was 5.7g. So that is about 0.6g per cc.

Seeds would vary in density (and potency) between batches but that is irrelevant. If 5cc (about 3g) is too much, the user can lower the dose to 3cc or whatever.

Dosage can be accurately tweaked by volume. My benchmark of 5.7g per 10cc can be used as a reference point for experimenting with volume dosage.

Can anyone else with an accurate scales weigh 10cc rue for a weight-to-volume comparison?

[Hippie3]

this may sound a bit dense
but why not just weight the rue ?
so we must be talking about
folks with no scales, yes ?

seems the humidity/dryness of the seeds would vary a bit
throwing off a volume-weight ratio

[phalanx]

Even digital scales that are accurate to 1g aren't so accurate at the 1g-10g level. There has to be a minimum weight for accuracy.

This is a simple method for people with no (accurate) scales rather than for myself (I'm not stoned!!!) I thought it was unfair that people without scales had no accurate measurements. Using a syringe, you can adjust dosage in roughly 0.5g increments per cc which is all the accuracy you need.

I was asking for other comparisons just to build up a bigger picture of what 10cc can weigh. That way a scale-less user has a more accurate idea of what a volume dose may weigh.

[dukex]

"Can anyone else with an accurate scales weigh 10cc rue for a weight-to-volume comparison?"

If I have any left I will try this evening.

Peace...

[Hippie3]

my ohaus triple beams
show 10 cc of very dry seed
at 5.4 g

[Hippie3]

btw
a level teaspoon of rue seed weighed 3.1 g

[I_am_me]

Maybe it would be more accurate to measure ground up dried seeds?

[Hippie3]

i'd say
about 6 cc of whole seed
should be effective MAOI level for most

[rocketman]

i recently bought some 10x rue extract from iamshaman, and im curious to know how to properly dose it.....any help will be appreciated...im thinking about multiplying hips 3.1 x .10 does this sound right? .3g or so?

rocket

[phalanx]

So that is 5.7g on an Ohaus digital and 5.4g on an Ohaus triple beam for 10cc of whole seeds. Hopefully Duke X will have another reference point soon.

Trying to measure powder volume would be less accurate because it wou