Shroom extraction TEKS

[golly]

Think we may be complicating things here,,If your primary goal is to extract the goods for immediate use then nothing is more efficient and simpler than simmering dried mush in apple juice or other acidic solution for 25 mins imo...

If your goal is preservation ,then Everclear 95% alcohol is second only to
storing em dried in a cool dark place...Maximum realistic efficiency is near 80% for alcohol [from hands on experiments ] but can be much lower..

If your goal is reducing bodyload /side effects..Then the alcohol extract is top dawg imo...Followed closely by the apple tea ....

These opinions are from dosing every week for the last 3.5 years..Heh...

[Xerces]

My goal would be to basically have shrooms stored in a stealth way, extracting would be ideal, but I don't want to drink alcohol with mushrooms. I guess if I do it, I'll try the apple juice at least for quick consumption...

[golly]

Sounds like dried and compressed is the way to go in your case Xerces..
Keep a bag of dessicant in an airtight container with the goods, for long term store...

[Xerces]

Dried and Compressed? Is that stealth? How is compressed?

[golly]

By compressing i mean - any method that squeezes out the air..Like simply
crushing down in a half or quarter pint jar leaving as little air as possible..

I think as far as stealth goes, the extract is about as suspicious looking as
a jar of dried imo...I'm not sure how well the extract keeps at room temp
but dried will do fine, so you can hide it anywhere pretty much...

[Beshroomed]

Hey, Thanks Golly,
I had not heard of simmering in Apple juice before. I take it that the acidity in it brings out more of the magic? As for dry storage, what my FOAF has been doing is putting cracker dry ones into a ziplock bag, sucking all the air out and sealing, then storeing the bags in a quart jar with either loose Damp Rid in the bottom of the jar or makeing an envelope out of Tyvek fastened with staples and putting it in the jar. Being still a noobie at this he has had freshies on hand so he has only tried dry ones once or twice. Freshies definately seem to pack more of a punch. He started a Honey jar a few weeks ago. 130 grams wet and pouring off the water every week or so. Heard this is the best way to preserve the original potency.
Any comments or suggestions?
Many thanks to all!

[udok]

I'd prefer not to go into detail at this point, since this thread is already growing quick. (holy grail ...see number of views )
I am only collecting information for a condensed report now.
Does anybody know about succed in activating/deactivating alkaline phosphatase with cations /chelating agents?
For MgSO4 i have seen an document, in which an increased psilocin output of 30% was stated.
More important would be a way to deactivate phosphatase, if it is not removed.
I have seen discussions about hypothetical activation with EDTA. But nothing concrete found yet.
So any concrete information directly concerning psilocybin preservation with aid of chelating agents out there?
Anyone tried diluted epsom salt when ingesting mushrooms?
thanks

[fastfred]

Can you post a link or cite on that MgSO4 info?

I've read a couple abstracts that show EDTA is effective in inactivating alkaline phosphatase. EDTA is about the most effective chelating agent out there. It's also safe and makes a good preservative. I've discussed it a bit at the shroomery and I think it would make a great preservative for our needs.

Phosphatase enzymes require iron ions to do their work so EDTA is about as effective as it gets, but I'd like to hear about MgSO4 also. How is it able to inactivate phosphatases?


-FF

[udok]

Originally Posted by fastfred

Can you post a link or cite on that MgSO4 info?
I've read a couple abstracts that show EDTA is effective in inactivating alkaline phosphatase. EDTA is about the most effective chelating agent out there. It's also safe and makes a good preservative. I've discussed it a bit at the shroomery and I think it would make a great preservative for our needs.
Phosphatase enzymes require iron ions to do their work so EDTA is about as effective as it gets, but I'd like to hear about MgSO4 also. How is it able to inactivate phosphatases?
-FF

Source:
Dephosphorylation of Psilocybin to Psilocin by Alkaline Phosphatase (26228)
A. Horita and L.J. Weber (Introduced by T.A. Loomis)
Dept. of Phamacology, University of Washington School of Medicine Seattle)
Here are some interesting excerpts from that text

• At 37 C.(Bodytemperature) they found:
  

  A rapid dephosphorylation is evident in the initial 15-30 minutes.

  The reaction proceeds at a lower rate after 30 minutes.
• The activity of alkaline posphatase can be controled in different ways:
  An excerpt from somewere else: -FF you know this *grin*
  source:http://www.shroomery.org/forums/show...Number/5925358
  Mg++ ions protect the enzyme from inactivation by complexing agents
  Now back to Horita/Weber. They made a tests with magnesium sulfate
  

  Since the Mg++ ion is known to activate alkaline phosphatase its effect was also studied
  with psilocybin as substrate. It was found that at concentrations of 0.35% MgSO4,
  psilocin and inorganic phosphate liberated increased about 30% above controls.

  Determinations of the sulubilities of these 2 compounds in organic solvents and in
  Tyrode solution at ph 7.4 showed psilocin to be over 100 times as soluble in chloroform than was
  psilocybin.(unpublished results)

not sure but i think i have found the document at Hofmann foundation.
just started creating a document with excerpts like above. not much

[udok]

Found the sourcelink see previous post:
www.erowid.org/references/refs.php?Collection=Hofmann
This one is the direct link to the document
www.erowid.org/references/refs_view.php?A=ShowDoc1&ID=2623

[udok]

Blue discoloration occur a lot, when fresh mushrooms are damaged.
Nothing noticeable happens if they are dried.
Addition of water leads again to strong discoloration.
It is said that psilocin degradation could be jointly responsible
for this discoloration. Maybe not.
Why is there no noticeable discoloration with dried mushrooms ?

Maybe psilocin is very well protected in (dried) mushrooms??? It is harder to get out!!!

Maybe all or most of the psilocin is already decomposed in dried mushrooms?

They are not discolored! But maybe to something which is not blue.
But mushrooms mostly consists of water.

To build this blue compound, (other)water is needed ?
Not only oxygen, if its a sign of oxidation ?
Quick and dirty test: No colorchange in 25% acetic acid.
No change after a lot of NaHCO3 was added.
No change after tap water was added.

What happens when deionized water is used instead of tap water?

May slow down dephosphorylation (less cations involved)

[fastfred]

The bluing occurs when phosphatase enzymes are liberated due to cellular damage (cutting bruising). Fresh mushrooms have a fairly low psilocin content (compared to psilocybin) so there is little oxidation untill the psilocybin is dephosphorylated. With proper drying there is little cellular damage and little dephosphorylation. Dried mushrooms can be ground up without bluing because you need an aqueous solvent to allow the enzymes to come into contact with the psilocybin.

I suggest always using some ascorbic acid to prevent oxidation.


-FF

Can someone tell me what extracting psilocybin does for the shroom high exactly?

[udok]

Originally Posted by golly

Think we may be complicating things here,,If your primary goal is to extract the goods for immediate use then nothing is more efficient and simpler than simmering dried mush in apple juice or other acidic solution for 25 mins imo...
...
These opinions are from dosing every week for the last 3.5 years..Heh...

I want to know what happens,and how it works, starting with something simple like tea.
Whats the ideal temperature, what brewing time, which ingredients to use, which to avoid.
Is it possible to prepare a nice tea in advance ? To have a nice trip at a lovely
place far away from home. (Ok could use shrooms, but i dont like the taste)

A tea thread - see how it grows:"My Tea Flopped, help"
http://forums.mycotopia.net/showthread.php?t=18494 (My Tea Flopped, help)

I have no special tea procedure with regular tea. Just a tea bag, boiling water and milk. easy ehh
Catchword alkohol:

What kind of alkohol should be used? Which alkohol strength?
Isopropanol and ethyl alkohol are good desinfectants as 70% dilution.
The mode of action with 70% for desinfecting, could also be good for
extracting. You get 30% water almost everywere.
Psilocybin difficulty soluble in ethanol but its soluble in water.
Psilocin is very slightly soluble in water. It make no sense for me to use
high proof alkohol.

Originally Posted by fastfred

Dried mushrooms can be ground up without bluing because you need an aqueous solvent to allow the enzymes to come into contact with the psilocybin.

But there is no visible reaction with diluted acetic acid. Thats confusing .(ok i am always a little bit confused)
--Last chemistry lesson -- decades away--

[fastfred]

It has been reported that 70% (140 proof) is the most efficient. Others have reported that the higher the better.

If you go with the 70% method that makes bacardi 151 a good choice, otherwise use everclear (95%, 190 proof).

As far as tea goes I have no idea. I've heard many methods reported to work so I don't think it's critical. Any method that makes good tea will probably work.

As for acetic acid the acidity makes the psilocin more stable, but a bluing reaction will still occur over time.


-FF

[Xerces]

I usually just "simmer" the chopped shrooms in the already made tea, rather than boiling them.
Also with orange juice since vitamin C.. prevents oxidation?

[udok]

Only an other excerpt
Source: http://www.erowid.org/references/ref...owDoc1&ID=6535
Dephosphorylation of Psilocybin in the Intact Mouse
A.HORITA A_DL. J. WEBER I
Department of Pharmacology, School of Medicine, University of Washington,
Seattle 5, Washington
Received November 30, 1961

Sodium beta-glycerophosphate Was selected as a competitive substrate in
order to reduce the amount of psilocybin dephosphorylation. A competitive
inhibitor which would be' effective in vivo would have been a
more desirable choice in this casei but thus far we have not found such
a compound. In order to produce the desired degree of enzyme competition,
a relatively large amount of the glycerophosphate was required. This
dose, however, did not produce any observable behavioral effects, nor did
it interfere with the actions of injected psilocin. Because of its low toxicity
as well as that of its dephosphorylated product, glycerol, it has served as
a satisfactory agent to inhibit the dephosphorylation of psilocybin.

[Soliver1]

It never ceases to amaze me how such a simple procedure as basic everclear extraction rapidly turns into an overly-complex digression into basement psuedo-chemistry...

Put shrooms in everclear. Wait. Strain, evap, enjoy.

Notice the lack of vacuum pumps, potentially toxic chemicals, and a time consuming array of filtrations, dehypholyzations, and god knows what someone could do to a batch of shrooms for ? reason... ?

Even if you don't want to drink alcohol with your shrooms, you can evap it down to 5mls / gram easily, which is less alcohol than you'd get in your system after swishing with listerine.

As for the kind of alcohol to use, the higher the proof the better. Water may be more efficient in extracting all of the compounds from the shroom, as well as lower proof alcohols, but the whole point of alcohol extraction (for me) is that there isn't water involved (not enough, at least), so whatever makes your stomach and bowels do flips stays in the shroom, not in the extract.

Discussions on topics such as " Dephosphorylation of Psilocybin to Psilocin" will only muddy the waters for people who just want to make a good extract, which can be done with nothing more than a sackful of shrooms and a bottle of everclear - nothing else needed to make a top-notch product.

Some concepts are just too easy for those folks who revel in making life difficult, but each to his own I suppose.



soliver

[oibchip]

AMEN

[udok]

Originally Posted by Soliver

It never ceases to amaze me how such a simple procedure as basic
everclear extraction rapidly turns into an overly-complex digression
into basement psuedo-chemistry...

AGREE!!!!!!!

Put shrooms in everclear. Wait. strain , evap, enjoy.

The only source for something like everclear here, would be the same as for methanol.
And one could get denaturated alkohol. Its even hard to find 70% alcohol.
NO EVERCLEAR HERE

Notice the lack of vacuum pumps, potentially toxic chemicals, and a time
consuming array of filtrations, dehypholyzations, and god knows what
someone could do to a batch of shrooms for ? reason... ?

Use of vacuum pumps ?
Potentialy toxic chemicals ? Who wants to use these ??????????????
Did i miss something? Epsom salt, vinegar, alcohol, baking soda ... (other names for the "potentially toxic chemicals")
E
The biggest possible misinterpretation. Maybe one more try?
reason?
I need something which is reliable over a longer period.
I want to take it with me; Used as as abortive medication in the treatment of cluster headache. Works only 12 h for me. Others had more luck...
My prescription only medicines with triptamines costs 15 and more Euro per dose.
Why giving the companies so much money, if ...
And many unwanted side effects from the other medicines...

As for the kind of alcohol to use, the higher the proof the better.
Water may be more efficient in extracting all of the compounds from the
shroom, as well as lower proof alcohols, but the whole point of alcohol
extraction (for me) is that there isn't water involved (not enough, at
least), so whatever makes your stomach and bowels do flips stays in the
shroom, not in the extract.

Would you be kind enough to explain this part? To satisfy me Better facts!
INFORMATION NEEDED

Discussions on topics such as " Dephosphorylation of Psilocybin to
Psilocin" will only muddy the waters for people who just want to make a
good extract, which can be done with nothing more than a sackful of
shrooms and a bottle of everclear - nothing else needed to make a
top-notch product.

How it could be done with everclear was detailed and entirely accomplished imho.
I totaly agree with your first sentence! I didn't start a new thread, because there
are soooooooooo many "chemistry threads" all over the world. Here is now something usable and satisfactory in the first part (everclear).
And the rest... a gathering of information( not simply cut and paste whole documents like elsewere) Contribute????

Some concepts are just too easy for those folks who revel in making life
difficult,

again [b]KISS[/]

but each to his own I suppose.

*JEEP*


Maybe i misinterpret everything, but i am totaly pissed. Or its only from 150mg Prednisolon per day for the last 3 weeks. (unwanted side effect-an other reason)

[oibchip]

"Even if you don't want to drink alcohol with your shrooms, you can evap it down to 5mls / gram easily, which is less alcohol than you'd get in your system after swishing with listerine."



Actually I have had great succes with evaporating it down to less than 3 ML per gram. 151 Proof Bacardi works well too Udok...can u get that where u are?

[udok]

3ML pg for me not a hell of a lot !

shit lost the reply. Now this is only a condensed reply without further explanation. ;(

I can get everything here, even methanol. (living in a big town)
Others could order the chemicals online. There maybe a chance to get
ethanol from the pharmacy. In former times it wasn't a big deal to get nearly everything. Nowadays... 1984 9/11.)
There is a lot of tax on alcohol.
1$ denaturated alcohol (no tax)
26$ for something like everclear
10$ for Methanol( only as example) all prices per quarts

So, why not use vodka, tequila, water!
My favorite solvent: acetic acid !

Anyone who wants to get pure Psilocybin/Psilocin?
If this matter is of interest to you:
Go and see how the experts have done. Well documented.

With the aid of easy to get, cheap, not controlled chemicals(online order ) it
should be hypothetical possible to:
get most of the magic into a very small volume without "significant" potency lost over a "long time".

[oibchip]

[quote=udok;347944]3ML pg for me not a hell of a lot !


Huh?..whats that mean?

[TVCasualty]

Originally Posted by Soliver

It never ceases to amaze me how such a simple procedure as basic everclear extraction rapidly turns into an overly-complex digression into basement psuedo-chemistry...

I always wondered why Mr. Dali in your avatar there never ceased looking amazed, with that "What did you say you wanted to do to my mushrooms?!?" look on his face...

Anyhow, it seems like if lack of ethanol is an issue it'd be easier to rig up a little still and just make some than to attempt some of the more complicated alternatives.

I know I can do it if they can:




For stealth travel, I'd recommend, if possible, storing the mushrooms sealed up and dry at home. When you go somewhere, take out just as much as you need, break them up into coarse chunks (just so no they longer really look like shrooms) and put them in teabags. Carry them as dry tea with a selection of a few other herb teas or whatever and make the brew when you get there. This is an especially favorite method for international air travel. Take only what's needed from the mothership stash at home. Cracker-dry, sealed, and in cool darkness they last a long long time.

Teabags and everclear are not uber-perfect potency protection and concentration and prolongation but they're good enough. Unless you're an extraction purist, of course. "Lower my profile and get me through security" and "Get me pure, clean, stabilized dry crystals" are different quests entirely, and since these other techniques are somewhere in between they become counterproductive since they only get more complicated than everclear yet will never result in the pure perfection.

I also mix mine in honey, which also works for travel (in checked luggage only now, since it's a 'gel') and allows the packing of several ounces on a trip no problem) and is great for long shelf-life. Here's (Food V's Drink) a recipe I like a lot, because it's mine!

[Soliver1]

I think this is addresed earlier in the post (?) but generally, the extraction cleans up the dose so you don't get stomach flips and gastro-intestinal discomfort. Also, the trip comes on faster and cleaner, more like a drug, less like an uncomfortable body-loaded entheogenic experience. It also does make storage and dosing easier.

Example: you and a buddy both snarf 2grams. You go through the roof, but for whatever reason your buddies' shrooms are weak and he doesn't have the same experience... the extraction makes the dosage standard so there's no variation among psilly ingested.

Straight shroom plain kills my stomach, and I tend to spend 1/2 the time thinking about life while sitting on the can the extraction removes that completely and makes for a reliable, repeatable experience every time; the only variant being your mindset before ingestion.

hope that helps,

soliver

Thanks for the info Soliver.

[Soliver1]

Originally Posted by udok

AGREE!!!!!!!
The only source for something like everclear here, would be the same as for methanol.
And one could get denaturated alkohol. Its even hard to find 70% alcohol.
NO EVERCLEAR HERE

There's nothing you can't order through the wonder of the internet. If I can get absinthe here, I'm sure you can get high proof ethanol there.

Use of vacuum pumps ?
Potentialy toxic chemicals ? Who wants to use these ??????????????
Did i miss something? Epsom salt, vinegar, alcohol, baking soda ... (other names for the "potentially toxic chemicals")

I'm talking about methanol, not necessarily your posts / teks using vinegar.

E
The biggest possible misinterpretation. Maybe one more try?
reason?
I need something which is reliable over a longer period.
I want to take it with me; Used as as abortive medication in the treatment of cluster headache. Works only 12 h for me. Others had more luck...
My prescription only medicines with triptamines costs 15 and more Euro per dose.
Why giving the companies so much money, if ...
And many unwanted side effects from the other medicines...
Would you be kind enough to explain this part? To satisfy me Better facts!
INFORMATION NEEDED

It's simple observation of cause-effect. I've dosed shroom, tea, powders, etc for years. Tea with water doesn't change anything for me, or most people for that matter. High proof alcohol does. What's the denominator? Water. Can I write you out a chemical formula for the process? No, but repeated experiences by many many members here report the exact same data, so the exact molecular process is irrelevant - the effect is the same.

How it could be done with everclear was detailed and entirely accomplished imho.
I totaly agree with your first sentence! I didn't start a new thread, because there
are soooooooooo many "chemistry threads" all over the world. Here is now something usable and satisfactory in the first part (everclear).
And the rest... a gathering of information( not simply cut and paste whole documents like elsewere) Contribute????
again [b]KISS[/] *JEEP*


Maybe i misinterpret everything, but i am totaly pissed. Or its only from 150mg Prednisolon per day for the last 3 weeks. (unwanted side effect-an other reason)

No need to be totally pissed. What members need is a reliable tek with pictures, etc., that can be repeated by other members, before any conceptual extraction conversations can be useful. Most peeps here don't have access to separatory funnels, magnetic stirring apparatus, vacuum pumps, etc., so the KISS principle is what dominates successful / popular teks.



soliver

[Soliver1]

BTW UDOK,

It may be relevant to also note that my post was not directed at you, but at the preponderance of technical posts that invariably pop up whenever the word "extraction" is in a thread title, not just in this thread, but in almost every extraction thread I've seen / been a part of here for the past five years.

In other words, no offense intended - we're just here to help

soliver