experimenters > Sand in brf mix for Spawn

[Hippie3]

so i love brf [ my supercake recipe ]
and in spawn bags it is very competitive
with wbs for particle size once broken up.
but that's problematic as brf is rather sticky.
but with no pre-soak needed nor even a pc , just steam
the advantages of brf are speed and few contams.

now i've tried adding a few different things to my brf
to help it break up easier.
used popcorn for a few years but finally gave it up,
tried adding wbs but still wasn't happy,
still a real pita .

so the other day i'm thinking,
mulling over the problem,
and i think
maybe sand ?
it's inert, traps air/water on its surfaces,
and is non-stick.
won't contam, no prep time, cheap.

i'm thinking maybe 20-25% sand in the mix
should make crumbling it for spawn a cinch.
i mentioned it earlier in our chatroom to the VIP crowd
and Sandman says he'll give it a try.
anyone else up for an experiment
for the sake of knowledge ?

[sandman]

Im gonna be cooking up some of these this weekend baby.

I think BRF mix in spawn bags will take much less time to perpare, and work equally as well with less contams than WBS.

[Santiago]

I'll join the fray in mid-August.

[lucysd]

hell ya my next attempt at cakes ill try that shit out

hopefully i willhave my first succesfull cake run hehehe

i like that idea
of adding something that really cant contamn heheh3

[Hippie3]

not intended for cakes
unless you plan to crumble the cakes up.

[eatyualive]

would you be using calcium sand? you can get that at pet stores..

[Myc]

How 'bout perlite?

[Hippie3]

Originally Posted by eatyualive

would you be using calcium sand? you can get that at pet stores..

was thinking the same thing.

[Hippie3]

Originally Posted by Myc

How 'bout perlite?

perlite can be used as spawn,
but i'm thinking i want smaller particles
so the brf powders easily.
also my earlier experiments using perlite
led me to believe that perlite dries out the brf.

[Fresh Brewed]

Any concerns with the sand messing up the PH?

[Irishlion]

Originally Posted by Fresh Brewed

Any concerns with the sand messing up the PH?

Being that sand is complelty inert and really has no ph level to it at all I would have to say I seriously doubt it.

[Hippie3]

Originally Posted by Fresh Brewed

Any concerns with the sand messing up the PH?

that might depend on the type/source of the sand
and what trace chemicals are in it.
but pure clean sand should not swing ph much if any,
it may even help stabilize ph in the neutral range
as the substrate ages and acidic wastes accumulate.

[golly]

The sand may still have a positive effect at a lower % ..Just enough to help..
When i make shakable cake , i coarse grind the grain for less overall stickyness..

[mestophilies]

When buying sand I would make sure and get *pure* silica sand as far as is possible. Going to the beach, lake etc. will not give you ph neutral sand as it mixes with salt etc. even if you sterilized that sand it wouldn't be *clean*. IMO I would def. look for play sand from the dept. store, the kind for kids sand box that is usually pure silica sand. just my .02.
Can't wait to see some results from this testing though!

[Hippie3]

yeah, i do too, Golly.
and i can stir it up nice and fluffy
but
let it sit a minute
then re-stir,
you'll see the stickiness sets up fast.

i think it's the starch from the ground-up grain[rice]
combining with water to form paste.
so yeah, less grinding = less starch = less sticky
BUT
the bigger the grain chunks get, up to full kernels,
the more you have to pc the substrate to get it sterile
and the grain won't hold enough water without soaking, etc.
back to square one, so to speak.

i'm hypothesizing that
sand will bypass the problems with ground/whole grain[rice]
and be a cheap easy filler .

[sandman]

OK So Im off to get supplies for this project in a minute. I actually have a bag of sandbox sand in my garage, go figure!

Ive never made a single speck of BRF in m life before, but by god Ive made some spawn bags...

Do you think fine or coarse verm would be best for this?

[Hippie3]

coarse or medium

[sandman]

OK I just got done PCing some sandy spawn bags.

I used:
5.5 parts coarse verm,
2.25 parts coarsely ground white rice,
2.25 part lake water
1 part play sand
10 teaspoons Nutritional Yeast Flakes
10 tablespoons Bee Pollen
10 tablespoons Flax Seed
10 tablespoons Finely Shredded Coconut

The "part" is a pitcher, I wasn't sure exactly how big it is just a big ol plastic tea pitcher.

Seemed to be a good mix. I've never done any rice flower cakes of any kind ever, so I dont have a good base to go off of there. I haven't taken them out of the pc yet so I dont know how they turned out but before pcing seemed good to me.

[Hippie3]

sounds good. that's about 12.5% sand, a good place to start.
get some pix plz.

[eatyualive]

you won't be sorry with that mix sandman!

doing any experiments with coir in there as well?

[Santiago]

I can't wait to try this. I was thinking about using sand a few months ago, but I figured that if I didn't see anything about it, it was because someone had already tried and it was determined not to be effective.

So with the ratio, should it be measured by standard PF mix ratio (labeled A) and sand (labeled B), or vermiculite (A), BRF (B), water (C), and sand (D).

[sandman]

Innoculated spawn bags just a minute ago. I used some PE MS LC's. 20-30ccs per bag.

Here are some pics:

wet substrate before pc'ing:


more wet sub mixed and ready:


one more wet pic, heh:


PC'd:


Crumbled after innocing for test:


not mixed after innocing:


closer:


another:


crumbled and on its side:


another close uncrumbled:


mix that dried without pc'ing:


From what I can tell they should work out... VS making wbs it was about 1000 times easier and quicker. I did burn up a coffee grinder though...

[Ben Dover]

Originally Posted by sandman

Innoculated spawn bags just a minute ago. I used some PE MS LC's. 20-30ccs per bag.

From what I can tell they should work out... VS making wbs it was about 1000 times easier and quicker. I did burn up a coffee grinder though...

Looks good sandman! I can't wait to see how it turns out working with sand.

I use a regular kitchen blender. If I bug a whole bag of rice in it, I would have
to sift it to get the whole and 1/2 pieces out (which was less than 1/8 the
original volume of rice)and blend one more time.

Like Hipp said, it could coat the grains better, then I guess a second blend
is not needed

[rocketman]

did it set up hard when it dried? i know its not the same thing, but when i mix regular sand with soil it sets up like concrete.

[Hippie3]

shouldn't...sandy soil is loose.

[sandman]

nah it was firm, but not really hard. It was actually pretty soft and slightly mushy.

[floppypeter]

subscribed !

just pulling up a chair to watch

[adio9454]

so with this method are you breaking up thebrf and sand mix then innoculating or do you add the sand to a jar with brf? If so can you still use the dunk method?

[Yale]

Using sand had been in the back of my head for a while. I'm glad someone is trying it ^^. I once did an experiment with marigolds eons ago in middle school. The marigolds growing in the sandy soil excelled because of it's water retention if I remember correctly. It will be interesting to watch these experiments progress with time ..

[Hippie3]

Originally Posted by adio9454

so with this method are you breaking up thebrf and sand mix then innoculating or do you add the sand to a jar with brf? If so can you still use the dunk method?

this in not intended for cakes in jars
but instead for bulk brf in bags.

[sandman]

We have growth on most of the bags, except the one I mixed up after innocing.