Multiple question this newbie has about growing mushrooms

10-03-06, 19:03

Multiple questions this newbie has about growing mushrooms

Hello, I'm a newbie, and I had a few questions that I wasn't quite able to find answers to. I have never grown mushrooms, so I am starting using a simple methodical PF tek. I would appreciate any bit of help I can get!

1) I have purchased everything I need to grow mushrooms besides brown rice flower and the spores. The fruiting chamber I am going to use is a 59 quart Rubbermaid tub (the lid will be modded with plexi glass to allow light to pass through the top). I am going to use the simple Pearlite substrate technique. The tub is going to be placed in my closet. If in the winter the closet is too cold, I will place a small heating pad beneath to raise the inside temp to 70 degrees. I now have three questions in this department:

1a. Is placing a small heating pad under the fruiting chamber to make the inside temp 70 degrees a bad idea (IF the closet turns out to be too cold)?
1b. When the mushrooms are fruited, how intense is the smell? This is not vital, but I am wondering if people upstairs are going to smell them!
1c. Probably the most vital thing I need to know: how many ½ pint jars should I fit inside of a 59 quart tub? I have 12 ½ pint Ball jars, and 12 of them are able to be crammed inside of a single 59 qt. tub. When all 12 jars with lids are placed upside-down inside of a tub, the lids are about a 1.5 inches away from each other, and the lids on the outer parameter are touching the tub walls. Is this something to be avoided? Just to be safe, I purchased two 59 qt. tubs. Would it be wiser to place 6 jars inside of two tubs instead of 12 jars in one tub?
1d. Is my goal to keep the closet which the tubs are in as sterile as possible?

2) I do not have a pressure cooker. So I must place jars in boiling water like many people do for the PF tek. However, I have read that boiling/steaming does not kill all of the bacterias. How much stock should I put into this notion? I am afraid that boiling is going to be the weakest link in the process, so I wonder if there are any steps I can take to make the jars as sterile as possible. Would it be wise to boil the jars twice? If you have experience with boiling jars and having successful fruits, please divulge any bit of info you can! Thank you!

3) After I innoculate the jars, they will be placed inside of a scientific precision incubator. This is very helpful to have around I imagine. I am able to control the temperature as precisely as I want, so I ask you, what temp should I keep the jars at as the mycelium takes to food? I've read that 83 is optimal, yet I've also read that 70 is optimal! Which one is correct?

I realize that this post is probably very typical of a newbie, but I assure you that my heart is in the right place. After being short changed on mushrooms so many times, I have decided to do this myself. Apparently, the only cool drug around where I live is coke and weed! Not my thing. If you can help me out in anyway, I would be in forever debt to the mycotopia community! I appreciate any help. Thank you.

CherryFive

grove_shroomer · 10-03-06, 19:12

anser for nuber 2 umm pf jars are noramaly steam stalized
qestion 3 umm 80s for veging and 70s for furiting

roc · 10-03-06, 19:51

It is unsafe to set things on the heat pad. Place on top.

safTman · 10-03-06, 20:08

1a. Is placing a small heating pad under the fruiting chamber to make the inside temp 70 degrees a bad idea (IF the closet turns out to be too cold)?

1a. yes, see roc's comments

1b. When the mushrooms are fruited, how intense is the smell? This is not vital, but I am wondering if people upstairs are going to smell them!

1b. no

1c. Probably the most vital thing I need to know: how many ½ pint jars should I fit inside of a 59 quart tub? I have 12 ½ pint Ball jars, and 12 of them are able to be crammed inside of a single 59 qt. tub. When all 12 jars with lids are placed upside-down inside of a tub, the lids are about a 1.5 inches away from each other, and the lids on the outer parameter are touching the tub walls. Is this something to be avoided? Just to be safe, I purchased two 59 qt. tubs. Would it be wiser to place 6 jars inside of two tubs instead of 12 jars in one tub?

1c. all 12 will be just fine, IMO

1d. Is my goal to keep the closet which the tubs are in as sterile as possible?

1d. yes, with in reason

2) I do not have a pressure cooker. So I must place jars in boiling water like many people do for the PF tek. However, I have read that boiling/steaming does not kill all of the bacterias. How much stock should I put into this notion? I am afraid that boiling is going to be the weakest link in the process, so I wonder if there are any steps I can take to make the jars as sterile as possible. Would it be wise to boil the jars twice? If you have experience with boiling jars and having successful fruits, please divulge any bit of info you can! Thank you!

2 Check the vaults for fractional sterilization

3) After I innoculate the jars, they will be placed inside of a scientific precision incubator. This is very helpful to have around I imagine. I am able to control the temperature as precisely as I want, so I ask you, what temp should I keep the jars at as the mycelium takes to food? I've read that 83 is optimal, yet I've also read that 70 is optimal! Which one is correct?

3. for me 80F works fine.

By the way,

Welcome to Mycotopia!!

BuckarooBanzai · 10-03-06, 20:28

You ask good questions so I will offer you good answers. Some of these answers will include corrections – please don’t be offended by this.

1. Perlite is not a substrate. Substrates are things that mycelia colonize/eat. DON’T USE A HEATING PAD AS A HEAT SOURCE – heat pads are a huge fire hazard.
2. Fruiting shrooms have only a very mild mushroom smell. Unless your grow is huge, the average person will mistake any smell they pick up as mildew.
3. 1.5 inches between cakes is more than enough. Cakes can be damned near touching and still do very well.
4. Don’t worry about keeping the fruiting environment sterile – it isn’t possible unless you plan to spend a lot of money on ventilating fans and HEPA filters and contamination suits. A LOT of money.
5. Steaming works, but it is less reliable than a PC unless you do full on fractional sterilization. IF you do a full four day FS process, you will find that the PC is actually less effective. FS is covered here: http://forums.mycotopia.net/showthread.php?t=14500 (Fractional Sterilization - mushrooms without a pressure cooker.)
6. 82F-83F is optimal for cubensis mycelia. DON’T GO WARMER. Cooler will work (cubensis mycleia grows effectively from 86F to 70F but grows fastest in the 83F-80F range).

If you have other questions, DO NOT HESITATE TO ASK. These are good questions you have asked. Not only do you get your answer, others who are reading (and perhaps not brave enough to post) get answers as well.

The only dumb question is the question you do not ask. Don't fall victim to the dumb question.

MLBjammer · 10-03-06, 22:48

Buck, you are still the best with the good karma information. I have done steam fractional sterilization a couple times. It was about 80% successful for me, which is pretty good in the big picture. I use an 8-quart PC now and do 6 1/2 pints at a time. I have had 100% success with that. I believe the PC costs around $30. If you want to do a lot of jars, of course, get a bigger PC. But I grow for myself and my tribe, so six jars a day are plenty. Welcome to the site. Peace.

tbonus · 10-05-06, 11:28

welcome to the topia,sounds like all your questions were answered accurately.Good luck on your venture,its proven to be challanging and rewarding for those that are successfull.PEACE!

10-11-06, 15:57

Guys -

I never got to thank you.

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BuckarooBanzai · 10-11-06, 20:36

Not a problem at all and you are quite welcome.

As other questions come up, don't hesitate to ask.

And please share your "I see my first pins" happy dance with us!!!

10-12-06, 01:57

Banzai- your help has definitely been very valuable.
I've come up with another question.

What is double end casing?
I've read about people talking about it, but I havent been able to find anything that actually says what it is?

Do you know I'm talking about?

best,
Cherryfive

PS - Definitely will do the pin dance...if I get no contams!

Mycolangelo · 10-12-06, 02:50

Do a search for the heatbomb , keeps the ice chest (incubator) at perfect temp

dial8 · 10-12-06, 08:55

Double end casing is where you apply your casing material to both ends of the cake. Since you are just starting out I'd reccommend using straight verm or verm/peat as the casing material. Add the casing material to the tray or lid your cake will be sitting on, plop the cake down on it and add another layer to the top of the cake.

heidiopolis · 10-12-06, 22:10

hey dial,
i was also wondering about the double end thing. so after the jars are fully colonized, you can just put some dry vermiculite on both sides of the cake? or should it be wet? what you said wasnt completely clear... please clarify? im a little slow :]

BuckarooBanzai · 10-13-06, 08:03

It should be moistened to field capacity - not really wet. A big handful, squeezed hard, should drip about 3-6 drops of water.

And yeah, it isn't any more complicated than that. Moist verm on top, moist verm on bottom, better yields.

dial8 · 10-13-06, 09:36

That is right. Sorry, I assumed you knew it should be wet.

GoVols · 02-14-07, 01:50

Boiling water will never get over 100C (212F) depending on altituse and air pressure of course.

The thing about the PC is the pressure forces the heat deep into the material inside of it.

I am a Microbiology student at the University of Tennessee. We use similiar devices to pressure cookers called autoclaves. Those cost about 5 grand so a pressure cooker is a nice substitute.

Wet heat under pressure is the most effective method of steralization.

Simple boiling can not approach the killing power of pressure!!

~Hippie3 · 02-14-07, 07:10

we know
however
multiple exposures to steam over a period of days-
know as fractional sterilization or tyndalization -
will still get the job done well enough for our purposes.

BuckarooBanzai · 02-17-07, 02:03

Actually, exposure to certain types of radiation or ethylene oxide gas (at standard atmospheric pressure) are far more effective methods of sterilization than wet heat under any amount of pressure.

The essential concept that makes Tyndalization work (and it does work) is that ALL microbial life is suceptible to death from simple boling temperatures during the "living" phase of it's life cycle.

By boiling sucessively over the course of 3 days, you give all the microbial life the chance to "hatch" and become soft/living cells which are highly succeptible to death from boiling temperatures.

It isn't hard to extrapolate the fact that Tyndallization, properly done, can actually be more effective than 15psi for 90 minutes.

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10-03-06, 19:03	#1 (permalink)
~CherryFive Guest Posts: n/a	Multiple question this newbie has about growing mushrooms Multiple questions this newbie has about growing mushrooms Hello, I'm a newbie, and I had a few questions that I wasn't quite able to find answers to. I have never grown mushrooms, so I am starting using a simple methodical PF tek. I would appreciate any bit of help I can get! 1) I have purchased everything I need to grow mushrooms besides brown rice flower and the spores. The fruiting chamber I am going to use is a 59 quart Rubbermaid tub (the lid will be modded with plexi glass to allow light to pass through the top). I am going to use the simple Pearlite substrate technique. The tub is going to be placed in my closet. If in the winter the closet is too cold, I will place a small heating pad beneath to raise the inside temp to 70 degrees. I now have three questions in this department: 1a. Is placing a small heating pad under the fruiting chamber to make the inside temp 70 degrees a bad idea (IF the closet turns out to be too cold)? 1b. When the mushrooms are fruited, how intense is the smell? This is not vital, but I am wondering if people upstairs are going to smell them! 1c. Probably the most vital thing I need to know: how many ½ pint jars should I fit inside of a 59 quart tub? I have 12 ½ pint Ball jars, and 12 of them are able to be crammed inside of a single 59 qt. tub. When all 12 jars with lids are placed upside-down inside of a tub, the lids are about a 1.5 inches away from each other, and the lids on the outer parameter are touching the tub walls. Is this something to be avoided? Just to be safe, I purchased two 59 qt. tubs. Would it be wiser to place 6 jars inside of two tubs instead of 12 jars in one tub? 1d. Is my goal to keep the closet which the tubs are in as sterile as possible? 2) I do not have a pressure cooker. So I must place jars in boiling water like many people do for the PF tek. However, I have read that boiling/steaming does not kill all of the bacterias. How much stock should I put into this notion? I am afraid that boiling is going to be the weakest link in the process, so I wonder if there are any steps I can take to make the jars as sterile as possible. Would it be wise to boil the jars twice? If you have experience with boiling jars and having successful fruits, please divulge any bit of info you can! Thank you! 3) After I innoculate the jars, they will be placed inside of a scientific precision incubator. This is very helpful to have around I imagine. I am able to control the temperature as precisely as I want, so I ask you, what temp should I keep the jars at as the mycelium takes to food? I've read that 83 is optimal, yet I've also read that 70 is optimal! Which one is correct? I realize that this post is probably very typical of a newbie, but I assure you that my heart is in the right place. After being short changed on mushrooms so many times, I have decided to do this myself. Apparently, the only cool drug around where I live is coke and weed! Not my thing. If you can help me out in anyway, I would be in forever debt to the mycotopia community! I appreciate any help. Thank you. CherryFive

10-03-06, 19:51	#3 (permalink)
roc Old Man Join Date: Mar 1970 Posts: 4,460	It is unsafe to set things on the heat pad. Place on top. __________________ ubuntu! Member of Native Geekaho Tribe. "Think for yourself and question authority"

10-03-06, 20:28	#5 (permalink)
BuckarooBanzai Prone to ranting... Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 6,053	You ask good questions so I will offer you good answers. Some of these answers will include corrections – please don’t be offended by this. 1. Perlite is not a substrate. Substrates are things that mycelia colonize/eat. DON’T USE A HEATING PAD AS A HEAT SOURCE – heat pads are a huge fire hazard. 2. Fruiting shrooms have only a very mild mushroom smell. Unless your grow is huge, the average person will mistake any smell they pick up as mildew. 3. 1.5 inches between cakes is more than enough. Cakes can be damned near touching and still do very well. 4. Don’t worry about keeping the fruiting environment sterile – it isn’t possible unless you plan to spend a lot of money on ventilating fans and HEPA filters and contamination suits. A LOT of money. 5. Steaming works, but it is less reliable than a PC unless you do full on fractional sterilization. IF you do a full four day FS process, you will find that the PC is actually less effective. FS is covered here: http://forums.mycotopia.net/showthread.php?t=14500 (Fractional Sterilization - mushrooms without a pressure cooker.) 6. 82F-83F is optimal for cubensis mycelia. DON’T GO WARMER. Cooler will work (cubensis mycleia grows effectively from 86F to 70F but grows fastest in the 83F-80F range). If you have other questions, DO NOT HESITATE TO ASK. These are good questions you have asked. Not only do you get your answer, others who are reading (and perhaps not brave enough to post) get answers as well. The only dumb question is the question you do not ask. Don't fall victim to the dumb question. __________________ Banzai Institute for Higher Education (a collection of growing Teks & threads)

10-03-06, 22:48	#6 (permalink)
MLBjammer Addicted to Invitro Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,878	Buck, you are still the best with the good karma information. I have done steam fractional sterilization a couple times. It was about 80% successful for me, which is pretty good in the big picture. I use an 8-quart PC now and do 6 1/2 pints at a time. I have had 100% success with that. I believe the PC costs around $30. If you want to do a lot of jars, of course, get a bigger PC. But I grow for myself and my tribe, so six jars a day are plenty. Welcome to the site. Peace. Last edited by Hippie3; 02-14-07 at 07:08.

10-03-06, 19:12	#2 (permalink)
grove_shroomer Former Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 59	anser for nuber 2 umm pf jars are noramaly steam stalized qestion 3 umm 80s for veging and 70s for furiting

10-03-06, 20:08	#4 (permalink)
safTman easily distracted Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 575	1a. Is placing a small heating pad under the fruiting chamber to make the inside temp 70 degrees a bad idea (IF the closet turns out to be too cold)? 1a. yes, see roc's comments 1b. When the mushrooms are fruited, how intense is the smell? This is not vital, but I am wondering if people upstairs are going to smell them! 1b. no 1c. Probably the most vital thing I need to know: how many ½ pint jars should I fit inside of a 59 quart tub? I have 12 ½ pint Ball jars, and 12 of them are able to be crammed inside of a single 59 qt. tub. When all 12 jars with lids are placed upside-down inside of a tub, the lids are about a 1.5 inches away from each other, and the lids on the outer parameter are touching the tub walls. Is this something to be avoided? Just to be safe, I purchased two 59 qt. tubs. Would it be wiser to place 6 jars inside of two tubs instead of 12 jars in one tub? 1c. all 12 will be just fine, IMO 1d. Is my goal to keep the closet which the tubs are in as sterile as possible? 1d. yes, with in reason 2) I do not have a pressure cooker. So I must place jars in boiling water like many people do for the PF tek. However, I have read that boiling/steaming does not kill all of the bacterias. How much stock should I put into this notion? I am afraid that boiling is going to be the weakest link in the process, so I wonder if there are any steps I can take to make the jars as sterile as possible. Would it be wise to boil the jars twice? If you have experience with boiling jars and having successful fruits, please divulge any bit of info you can! Thank you! 2 Check the vaults for fractional sterilization 3) After I innoculate the jars, they will be placed inside of a scientific precision incubator. This is very helpful to have around I imagine. I am able to control the temperature as precisely as I want, so I ask you, what temp should I keep the jars at as the mycelium takes to food? I've read that 83 is optimal, yet I've also read that 70 is optimal! Which one is correct? 3. for me 80F works fine. By the way, Welcome to Mycotopia!!

10-05-06, 11:28	#7 (permalink)
tbonus Mycotopiate Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1,246	welcome to the topia,sounds like all your questions were answered accurately.Good luck on your venture,its proven to be challanging and rewarding for those that are successfull.PEACE! __________________ TWO WRONGS DON'T MAKE A RIGHT, BUT THREE RIGHTS MAKE A LEFT!

10-11-06, 15:57	#8 (permalink)
~CherryFive Guest Posts: n/a	Guys - I never got to thank you. THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

10-11-06, 20:36	#9 (permalink)
BuckarooBanzai Prone to ranting... Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 6,053	Not a problem at all and you are quite welcome. As other questions come up, don't hesitate to ask. And please share your "I see my first pins" happy dance with us!!! __________________ Banzai Institute for Higher Education (a collection of growing Teks & threads)

10-12-06, 01:57	#10 (permalink)
~CherryFive Guest Posts: n/a	Banzai- your help has definitely been very valuable. I've come up with another question. What is double end casing? I've read about people talking about it, but I havent been able to find anything that actually says what it is? Do you know I'm talking about? best, Cherryfive PS - Definitely will do the pin dance...if I get no contams!

10-12-06, 02:50	#11 (permalink)
Mycolangelo Mycotopiate Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 382	Do a search for the heatbomb , keeps the ice chest (incubator) at perfect temp Last edited by Hippie3; 02-14-07 at 07:06.

10-12-06, 08:55	#12 (permalink)
dial8 3 Join Date: Jun 1976 Posts: 4,420	Double end casing is where you apply your casing material to both ends of the cake. Since you are just starting out I'd reccommend using straight verm or verm/peat as the casing material. Add the casing material to the tray or lid your cake will be sitting on, plop the cake down on it and add another layer to the top of the cake.

10-12-06, 22:10	#13 (permalink)
heidiopolis Mycophiliac Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 13	double end casing hey dial, i was also wondering about the double end thing. so after the jars are fully colonized, you can just put some dry vermiculite on both sides of the cake? or should it be wet? what you said wasnt completely clear... please clarify? im a little slow :] __________________ spores can travel through space

10-13-06, 08:03	#14 (permalink)
BuckarooBanzai Prone to ranting... Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 6,053	It should be moistened to field capacity - not really wet. A big handful, squeezed hard, should drip about 3-6 drops of water. And yeah, it isn't any more complicated than that. Moist verm on top, moist verm on bottom, better yields. __________________ Banzai Institute for Higher Education (a collection of growing Teks & threads)

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10-13-06, 09:36	#15 (permalink)
dial8 3 Join Date: Jun 1976 Posts: 4,420	That is right. Sorry, I assumed you knew it should be wet.

02-14-07, 01:50	#16 (permalink)
GoVols Former Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 273	PC vs boiling Boiling water will never get over 100C (212F) depending on altituse and air pressure of course. The thing about the PC is the pressure forces the heat deep into the material inside of it. I am a Microbiology student at the University of Tennessee. We use similiar devices to pressure cookers called autoclaves. Those cost about 5 grand so a pressure cooker is a nice substitute. Wet heat under pressure is the most effective method of steralization. Simple boiling can not approach the killing power of pressure!!

02-14-07, 07:10	#17 (permalink)
~Hippie3 DUNG DEALER Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 42,765	we know however multiple exposures to steam over a period of days- know as fractional sterilization or tyndalization - will still get the job done well enough for our purposes.

02-17-07, 02:03	#18 (permalink)
BuckarooBanzai Prone to ranting... Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 6,053	Actually, exposure to certain types of radiation or ethylene oxide gas (at standard atmospheric pressure) are far more effective methods of sterilization than wet heat under any amount of pressure. The essential concept that makes Tyndalization work (and it does work) is that ALL microbial life is suceptible to death from simple boling temperatures during the "living" phase of it's life cycle. By boiling sucessively over the course of 3 days, you give all the microbial life the chance to "hatch" and become soft/living cells which are highly succeptible to death from boiling temperatures. It isn't hard to extrapolate the fact that Tyndallization, properly done, can actually be more effective than 15psi for 90 minutes. __________________ Banzai Institute for Higher Education (a collection of growing Teks & threads)

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