co2 from baking soda and vinegar for preserving mushrooms?

smartshop · 07-02-08, 04:12

Hi people,
What do you guys think of using co2 to store mushrooms. Would this reduce oxidation of the psilocybin/psilocin? I have only heard of using dry ice, but not co2.
Mixing baking soda with vinegar gives co2:
NaHCO3 + HAc -> NaOH + H2O + CO2

I have tried this and the resulting gas will put out a small candle in a glass jar. So it will definitely reduce the oxygen in a glass jar with shrooms. But i have too little chemistry knowledge to know if co2 would not be able to oxidize the goodies in shrooms.

What do you think?

atlas septum · 07-02-08, 05:16

Industrial shroom growers in the Netherlands packaged their mushrooms in a special atmosphere to keep them fresh (fresh mushrooms were legal, dried ones not). So I guess it could work.
Some pics of the process and equipment:

(Oh, hi all, been lurking for quite a while, it's about time i started posting

)

hungryjim · 07-02-08, 06:22

IMHO, it seems like a lot of trouble unless you're putting them in a time capsule or something. Even then, I can't say how effective it would be. Have you considered using honey as a preservative?

smartshop · 07-03-08, 05:20

Well it really isn't that much trouble, i was just thinking wether anything else from oxygen could oxidize psilocybin. But as the word is OXIdize i guess one would need oxygen for that to happen. so i think that the baking soda/vinegar method should work pretty well for preserving mushrooms.

Psilly_Engineer · 07-03-08, 05:35

1. Dry them
2. Jar them
3. Done

Fresh Brewed · 07-03-08, 05:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartshop

Well it really isn't that much trouble, i was just thinking wether anything else from oxygen could oxidize psilocybin. But as the word is OXIdize i guess one would need oxygen for that to happen. so i think that the baking soda/vinegar method should work pretty well for preserving mushrooms.

I think you have the right idea if you are looking for years of storage. My FOAF stores in CO2, but he uses dry ice. If you can find it, it's cheap and easy to use.

TVCasualty · 07-03-08, 08:05

That professional magic mushroom factory (nice thought) looks to be using nitrogen rather than CO2 for the same effect. I think CO2 might not be as well suited for this as N2 (might impart an off flavor over time, but not sure). You can get bottles of compressed nitrogen at welding supply places.

Incidentally, if you buy your own special refillable thermos (I forget the technical term, but it's just a vented thermos) you can also sometimes buy liquid nitrogen as well. You can displace air with that also, but be careful about shattering containers with it. It's also a lot of fun to play with, esp. if you pour a big cup into a swimming pool.

Personally, a rigid foodsaver container (not the bags, they crush 'em) is my favorite way to go; dry them w/ a fan, crisp them up in a sealed box w/ silica gel, then into a vacuum sealed foodsaver container that is stored in a cool, dark place. Done.

Hippie3 · 07-03-08, 08:36

foodsaver here, vacuum is good 'nuff.

Fresh Brewed · 07-03-08, 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVCasualty

I think CO2 might not be as well suited for this as N2 (might impart an off flavor over time, but not sure).

LOL...As opposed to the yummy, normal flavor of dried shrooms?

TVCasualty · 07-04-08, 12:42

Possibly. Isn't one strange flavor enough?

BoredMan · 07-04-08, 14:02

The CO2 should help with storage, and the method you are using to make it is actually pretty effective. I knew someone a few years ago who would use CO2 to store large quantities of pot. They got their CO2 filled in paintball gun tanks. Its pretty cheap for those canisters and even cheaper to get them filled. That would be a much more effective way of getting CO2 if you want to pursue this.
I say go for it, pretty sure it can't hurt and might help you out. I like doing odd little things too, its more fun to tinker and make things more "advanced" if you ask me. lol.

BoredMan · 07-04-08, 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by atlas septum

(fresh mushrooms were legal, dried ones not).

Don't mean to hijack but I must ask. Why and what reasons are given for allowing fresh but not dried mushrooms????

TVCasualty · 07-05-08, 08:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoredMan

Don't mean to hijack but I must ask. Why and what reasons are given for allowing fresh but not dried mushrooms????

The way I understood it, and as explained to me by a guy who used to work at one of the farms, it's about control; controlling sales, preventing them from being diverted for export, controlling who can grow and supply them since fresh ones have a very limited shelf life, etc. The scene was mostly controlled by the mob (necessitating that guy's quick exit from Holland at one point) and the fresh-only law worked well for keeping it that way. To me, the idea of a "mushroom-mafia" rubbed me the wrong way, but was kind of funny at the same time.

If you think about it, it makes sense that the only group capable of providing the kind of security needed to ship tons of drugs from various parts of the world to Amsterdam, produce a few of them locally in large quantities, and prevent heists and ripoffs is the mafia.

golly · 07-05-08, 10:44

My concern with the reactive co2 production would be any moisture carried along with the gas but i guess if you had a dessicant pack at the bottom of the receiving jar, that would take care of that..
A sealed quart jar with a tube in its lid, to the next storage jar, might work pretty well,
especially for room temp ,long term holding..
You should try it and take some pix..

I would do a test run first, cause u may be pumping foam into yer boomers..

Psilo-somatic · 10-26-08, 18:00

Just a thought, but if you're not gung-ho about making this as tecnical as possible, Maybe you could settle for jarring them, then shoot an emplty CO2 bb gun into it a couple times, then cap in up quick. What do you guys think?

TVCasualty · 10-27-08, 07:09

If you're going to try that, I'd recommend putting the mushrooms in a baggie first so they don't get coated by the fine mist of oil and lead residue that comes out of the gun's barrel when it's fired (unless it's never shot pellets or bb's before; then it's just oil). IMO it wouldn't be a very effective way of exchanging the air in the jar for CO2 since it would be injected with short and very turbulent bursts that would probably just result in a jar full of dirty air with a slightly-elevated CO2 level (if it didn't shatter the jar that is).

Fresh Brewed · 10-27-08, 17:28

Just posted this in another thread, but works here as well.

Noticed the other day at O****e D***t. that they sell a system for blowing dust off of screens/electronics and stuff. It consists of pressurized CO2 cartridges and the trigger mechanism. It didn't cost too much, and it would be easy to inflate a bag with it and then submerge your storage container into the heavier than air CO2.

My FOAF has been using dry ice as his CO2 source, but he has easy access to it and many may not.

Another thought that occured to me was when a friend the other day got new tires and was offered by the tire company to inflate his tires with argon instead of regular air. The cost was like 10.00 per tire or something. Argon is another heavier than air gas that would be a great medium to store shrooms in.

Hipster · 10-28-08, 23:54

What they’re using is carbon monoxide gas as the packing gas. Carbon monoxide is all most a perfect gas to pack produce and meat in. It’s all most inert except for it has some oxygen scavenging ability so produce and meat that’s stored in it will look nice and fresh for an extended time. Its use here in the states is being looked at by the Food & Drug Admiration because some stores have been selling meat packed under it after its expiration date.
I personally dry them and then use a vacuum seal a meal with both a desiccant and oxygen scavenger packets in the bag.

roc · 10-29-08, 18:41

One can use dry ice in a pitcher and just pour it in the storage vessel - cap it and store!

heyAdroid · 10-29-08, 19:03

thats how i store mine, i dry them then throw them in a jar pour some CO2 in the jar and seal i tight, i've even stored semi-dried mushrooms like this and they've lasted for 2 weeks, i dont know if they will go longer than that since i haven't had to store them for that long, but they probably would.

cheddar_bob · 10-31-08, 02:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVCasualty

you can also sometimes buy liquid nitrogen as well. ...It's also a lot of fun to play with, esp. if you pour a big cup into a swimming pool.

how exactly did that work out?

TVCasualty · 10-31-08, 09:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheddar_bob

how exactly did that work out?

Not bad. This wasn't anyone I know, but this is what happens. It's basically a neat party trick...

Soliver · 11-01-08, 21:13

Seems to me that storing whole shrooms is difficult at best, and a space
eater at worst, not to mention the difficulty of someone stumbling onto a
container (CO2 packed or no) with shrooms....

The degradation of the dried shroom is an issue, but this can all be overcome
with a simple extraction tek... a mason jar of everclear and a pile of shredded
mushrooms.

The resulting liquor will keep for over three years in the freezer without
losing potency (personal experience) and certainly doesn't arouse suspicion
as would a pile of dried mush.

Just a thought

On a more "on topic" note, I never really had a problem with potency loss
with dried shrooms sealed in a jar... never did the kind of testing as I did
with extract, but I suppose the real question is:

Is it worth the effort to do all that stuff?

I'm not sure - if you're keeping fresh shrooms fresh, it may be worth the
effort, but unless you're working under the bizarre legal systems of the EU,
I can't see why one would do so... By the by, I read somewhere that the
"freshies OK" loophole was closed in most of Europe?

soliver

Fresh Brewed · 11-01-08, 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fresh Brewed

Another thought that occured to me was when a friend the other day got new tires and was offered by the tire company to inflate his tires with argon instead of regular air. The cost was like 10.00 per tire or something. Argon is another heavier than air gas that would be a great medium to store shrooms in.

I was wrong, saw my friend again, and it was nitrogen that they offered to fill his tires with not argon. Nitrogen I think would work, but as it's lighter than air it would be much more difficult to work with.

oakchild · 11-02-08, 07:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fresh Brewed

I was wrong, saw my friend again, and it was nitrogen that they offered to fill his tires with not argon. Nitrogen I think would work, but as it's lighter than air it would be much more difficult to work with.

Actually, Nitrogen _is_ air, at least the large majority of it anyway.

Composition of Air:
Nitrogen 78.084%
Oxygen 20.947%
Argon 0.934%
Carbon Dioxide 0.033%

Forgive my nitpicking...

Blessings,
Oakchild

8-)

Froderick · 11-29-08, 21:07

Would vinegar and Baking soda work as a co2 source for "plants"?

karmakraze · 11-29-08, 21:23

I just Dry out my shroomies and put in a baggie with a silica packet. seems to work good for me.

EmmisonJ · 11-29-08, 22:30

you need to place them in an air-tight container, inside this air-tight container are your mushrooms placed in a 100% argon environment

on a more realistic scale, i say dry them out until cracker crisp and place them in a vacuum sealed bag along with some desiccant (swim likes damprid wrapped up in a kleenix so that the damprid doesn't actually touch the mushies, you don't want damprid rubbing off on your mushies)

EmmisonJ · 11-29-08, 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Froderick

Would vinegar and Baking soda work as a co2 source for "plants"?

i don't know enough about growing "plants" to know where it would be needed aside from co2 in the air needed for photosynthesis. but anyway - here's the deal with this reaction: baking soda is sodium bicarbonate, mixing it with vinegar (vinegar is typically 4-5% acetic acid mixed with 95-96% water). the acetic acid from vinegar reacts with the baking soda to form an unstable acid called carbonic acid. carbonic acid immediately decomposes after the reaction liberating water and carbon dioxide upon decomposition. i would imagine it might be difficult to place the carbon dioxide in a controlled environment.

here is a theoretical idea, perhaps there's an easier way but this is all i can think of due to my limited knowledge. you'd probably have to use a vacuum distillation setup to vacuum the receiving flask/container you want the co2 in. then use a setup exactly like a hcl gassing setup but instead of dripping hcl acid into sulfuric acid, perhaps drip vinegar onto baking soda to liberate the carbon dioxide which then travels through a desiccant chamber which will absorb any water vapor/moisture/etc and allow only the co2 to travel through to the receiving flask/container. that's just a rough idea but you probably get the picture, easier just to use a vacuum sealed bag with desiccant if you're talking about mushie preservation

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07-02-08, 04:12	#1 (permalink)
smartshop Mycophiliac Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 73	co2 from baking soda and vinegar for preserving mushrooms? Hi people, What do you guys think of using co2 to store mushrooms. Would this reduce oxidation of the psilocybin/psilocin? I have only heard of using dry ice, but not co2. Mixing baking soda with vinegar gives co2: NaHCO3 + HAc -> NaOH + H2O + CO2 I have tried this and the resulting gas will put out a small candle in a glass jar. So it will definitely reduce the oxygen in a glass jar with shrooms. But i have too little chemistry knowledge to know if co2 would not be able to oxidize the goodies in shrooms. What do you think?

07-02-08, 05:16	#2 (permalink)
atlas septum Mycophiliac Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2	Industrial shroom growers in the Netherlands packaged their mushrooms in a special atmosphere to keep them fresh (fresh mushrooms were legal, dried ones not). So I guess it could work. Some pics of the process and equipment: (Oh, hi all, been lurking for quite a while, it's about time i started posting ) Attached Thumbnails Last edited by atlas septum : 07-02-08 at 05:26. Reason: learning to use images

07-02-08, 06:22	#3 (permalink)
hungryjim Mycotopiate Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 221	I don't know IMHO, it seems like a lot of trouble unless you're putting them in a time capsule or something. Even then, I can't say how effective it would be. Have you considered using honey as a preservative? __________________ ................FeedingMyHungerForInformationOnly. .....HUNGRYJIM

07-03-08, 05:35	#5 (permalink)
Psilly_Engineer One of the Best Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 79	SIMPLE 1. Dry them 2. Jar them 3. Done __________________ I am... a mushroom; On whom the dew of heaven drops now and then. ~ John Ford

07-03-08, 05:20	#4 (permalink)
smartshop Mycophiliac Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 73	Well it really isn't that much trouble, i was just thinking wether anything else from oxygen could oxidize psilocybin. But as the word is OXIdize i guess one would need oxygen for that to happen. so i think that the baking soda/vinegar method should work pretty well for preserving mushrooms.

07-03-08, 08:05	#7 (permalink)
TVCasualty Embrace Your Damage Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 2,958	That professional magic mushroom factory (nice thought) looks to be using nitrogen rather than CO2 for the same effect. I think CO2 might not be as well suited for this as N2 (might impart an off flavor over time, but not sure). You can get bottles of compressed nitrogen at welding supply places. Incidentally, if you buy your own special refillable thermos (I forget the technical term, but it's just a vented thermos) you can also sometimes buy liquid nitrogen as well. You can displace air with that also, but be careful about shattering containers with it. It's also a lot of fun to play with, esp. if you pour a big cup into a swimming pool. Personally, a rigid foodsaver container (not the bags, they crush 'em) is my favorite way to go; dry them w/ a fan, crisp them up in a sealed box w/ silica gel, then into a vacuum sealed foodsaver container that is stored in a cool, dark place. Done. __________________ The danger of an adventure is worth a thousand days of ease and comfort- Paulo Coelho

07-03-08, 08:36	#8 (permalink)
Hippie3 Admin Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 36,331	foodsaver here, vacuum is good 'nuff. __________________ GROW SUPPLIES: www.Mycrotopia.com ------------Simply The Best------------ Namaste Temet Nosce

07-04-08, 12:42	#10 (permalink)
TVCasualty Embrace Your Damage Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 2,958	Possibly. Isn't one strange flavor enough? __________________ The danger of an adventure is worth a thousand days of ease and comfort- Paulo Coelho

07-04-08, 14:02	#11 (permalink)
BoredMan Mycophiliac Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 76	The CO2 should help with storage, and the method you are using to make it is actually pretty effective. I knew someone a few years ago who would use CO2 to store large quantities of pot. They got their CO2 filled in paintball gun tanks. Its pretty cheap for those canisters and even cheaper to get them filled. That would be a much more effective way of getting CO2 if you want to pursue this. I say go for it, pretty sure it can't hurt and might help you out. I like doing odd little things too, its more fun to tinker and make things more "advanced" if you ask me. lol.

07-05-08, 10:44	#14 (permalink)
golly modapotato Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5,670	My concern with the reactive co2 production would be any moisture carried along with the gas but i guess if you had a dessicant pack at the bottom of the receiving jar, that would take care of that.. A sealed quart jar with a tube in its lid, to the next storage jar, might work pretty well, especially for room temp ,long term holding.. You should try it and take some pix.. I would do a test run first, cause u may be pumping foam into yer boomers..

10-26-08, 18:00	#15 (permalink)
Psilo-somatic Mycophage Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 117	Just a thought, but if you're not gung-ho about making this as tecnical as possible, Maybe you could settle for jarring them, then shoot an emplty CO2 bb gun into it a couple times, then cap in up quick. What do you guys think?

10-27-08, 07:09	#16 (permalink)
TVCasualty Embrace Your Damage Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 2,958	If you're going to try that, I'd recommend putting the mushrooms in a baggie first so they don't get coated by the fine mist of oil and lead residue that comes out of the gun's barrel when it's fired (unless it's never shot pellets or bb's before; then it's just oil). IMO it wouldn't be a very effective way of exchanging the air in the jar for CO2 since it would be injected with short and very turbulent bursts that would probably just result in a jar full of dirty air with a slightly-elevated CO2 level (if it didn't shatter the jar that is). __________________ The danger of an adventure is worth a thousand days of ease and comfort- Paulo Coelho

10-27-08, 17:28	#17 (permalink)
Fresh Brewed Mycotopiate Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 731	Just posted this in another thread, but works here as well. Noticed the other day at O**e D*t. that they sell a system for blowing dust off of screens/electronics and stuff. It consists of pressurized CO2 cartridges and the trigger mechanism. It didn't cost too much, and it would be easy to inflate a bag with it and then submerge your storage container into the heavier than air CO2. My FOAF has been using dry ice as his CO2 source, but he has easy access to it and many may not. Another thought that occured to me was when a friend the other day got new tires and was offered by the tire company to inflate his tires with argon instead of regular air. The cost was like 10.00 per tire or something. Argon is another heavier than air gas that would be a great medium to store shrooms in.

10-28-08, 23:54	#18 (permalink)
Hipster A Marry Prankster Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 8	What they’re using is carbon monoxide gas as the packing gas. Carbon monoxide is all most a perfect gas to pack produce and meat in. It’s all most inert except for it has some oxygen scavenging ability so produce and meat that’s stored in it will look nice and fresh for an extended time. Its use here in the states is being looked at by the Food & Drug Admiration because some stores have been selling meat packed under it after its expiration date. I personally dry them and then use a vacuum seal a meal with both a desiccant and oxygen scavenger packets in the bag. __________________ Sure I'm an ass hole and a really fucked up writer to, so just get over it; Ok. I'm like one of those big ass cockroaches that you can't seem to kill!

10-29-08, 18:41	#19 (permalink)
roc Old Man Join Date: Mar 1970 Posts: 2,807	One can use dry ice in a pitcher and just pour it in the storage vessel - cap it and store! __________________ ubuntu! Member of Native Geekaho Tribe. "Think for yourself and question authority"

10-29-08, 19:03	#20 (permalink)
heyAdroid Mycophiliac Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 91	thats how i store mine, i dry them then throw them in a jar pour some CO2 in the jar and seal i tight, i've even stored semi-dried mushrooms like this and they've lasted for 2 weeks, i dont know if they will go longer than that since i haven't had to store them for that long, but they probably would.

11-01-08, 21:13	#23 (permalink)
Soliver Eating a NAKED LUNCH Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 685	Seems to me that storing whole shrooms is difficult at best, and a space eater at worst, not to mention the difficulty of someone stumbling onto a container (CO2 packed or no) with shrooms.... The degradation of the dried shroom is an issue, but this can all be overcome with a simple extraction tek... a mason jar of everclear and a pile of shredded mushrooms. The resulting liquor will keep for over three years in the freezer without losing potency (personal experience) and certainly doesn't arouse suspicion as would a pile of dried mush. Just a thought On a more "on topic" note, I never really had a problem with potency loss with dried shrooms sealed in a jar... never did the kind of testing as I did with extract, but I suppose the real question is: Is it worth the effort to do all that stuff? I'm not sure - if you're keeping fresh shrooms fresh, it may be worth the effort, but unless you're working under the bizarre legal systems of the EU, I can't see why one would do so... By the by, I read somewhere that the "freshies OK" loophole was closed in most of Europe? soliver

11-29-08, 21:07	#26 (permalink)
Froderick Mycophiliac Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 10	Probably should be a new thread Would vinegar and Baking soda work as a co2 source for "plants"? __________________ Asato Maa Sat gamaya Tamaso Maa Jyotir gamaya Mrtyorma Amrtam gamaya

11-29-08, 21:23	#27 (permalink)
karmakraze Amature Mycologist Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 138	Cool idea never thought of that I just Dry out my shroomies and put in a baggie with a silica packet. seems to work good for me.

11-29-08, 22:30	#28 (permalink)
EmmisonJ Purple feels yummy Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 209	you need to place them in an air-tight container, inside this air-tight container are your mushrooms placed in a 100% argon environment on a more realistic scale, i say dry them out until cracker crisp and place them in a vacuum sealed bag along with some desiccant (swim likes damprid wrapped up in a kleenix so that the damprid doesn't actually touch the mushies, you don't want damprid rubbing off on your mushies)