Sunflower Seed/ Trash experiment

[Myc]

The purpose of this experiment was to determine if skimming the dead seeds, hulls, and sunflower seeds out of WBS is worth the effort.

Three jars were used.
One with "cleaned" WBS and two made up of the trash skimmed off during the soaking process.
The jars were pc'd at the same time, allowed to cool, and innoculated with an equal amount of multi-spore solution.
They were then allowed an equal amount of colonization time in one location with environmental factors being the same for each jar.
The experiment was discontinued as soon as one jar was completely colonized.



Here are the results.
I'll allow the pics to speak for themselves.

[mycobri]

looks like skimming is well worth it

cool experiment
thanks for posting the results

[mycoking]

I beg to differ - I have saved the sunflower seeds and have g2g several times with the same results - the sunflower seeds are usually done in 1/2 the time as the rest of the wbs and for some reason they seem to fruit much faster on their own if left in the jars

[Dank Side Of The Shroom]

nothing ever grew on the sunflower seeds alone for us either. good test myco. and dude that grows on sunflower seeds alone u got pics of them growing?

[~Hippie3]

Originally Posted by mycoking

I beg to differ - I have saved the sunflower seeds and have g2g several times with the same results - the sunflower seeds are usually done in 1/2 the time as the rest of the wbs and for some reason they seem to fruit much faster on their own if left in the jars

seeing
is
believing.
where, pray tell, are your pix ?

[~Hippie3]

Originally Posted by Myc

The purpose of this experiment was to determine if skimming the dead seeds, hulls, and sunflower seeds out of WBS is worth the effort.

Three jars were used.
One with "cleaned" WBS and two made up of the trash skimmed off during the soaking process.
The jars were pc'd at the same time, allowed to cool, and innoculated with an equal amount of multi-spore solution.
They were then allowed an equal amount of colonization time in one location with environmental factors being the same for each jar.
The experiment was discontinued as soon as one jar was completely colonized.

Attachment 92683

Here are the results.
I'll allow the pics to speak for themselves.

Attachment 92681

great experiment, Myc.
now try it using mixtures,
say 10 % sunflower,
then 20, 30, 40, etc.
if it's consistent then
we should see that
fewer sunflwr seeds = faster, better colonization.

[Myc]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

great experiment, Myc.
now try it using mixtures,
say 10 % sunflower,
then 20, 30, 40, etc.
if it's consistent then
we should see that
fewer sunflwr seeds = faster, better colonization.

Can do!
I've already scoped out some pure sunflower seed for birds.
Pretty cheap and this seems like a good idea to me too.
The results should be interesting.
I'll keep using multi-spore innoculant since - though the pics really don't show it - there was no visible spore germination in either of the "trash" jars.

[TVCasualty]

Very nice experiment. I've been wanting to try it, but life's been rearranging my priorities again so I'm glad to see someone actually going to the trouble.

[Freaky]

Yes, this is great to see, thanks Myc!

One problem I have though, and hopefully you'll be able to replicate. Because of the multi-spore inoculation I can only go 85% convinced on the outcome of this experiment.

I know, I know, I'm being an ass, but really, for me to be 100% convinced, it'll have to be inoculated from an isolate lc or something. Genetic dispersion in the multi spore is my only reasoning behind this.

I also wonder what would happen if you g2g to the other 2 jars to see which colonizes faster, or if it colonizes at all.

I am glad to see this experiment though!

[Myc]

Originally Posted by Freaky

I know, I know, I'm being an ass, but really, for me to be 100% convinced, it'll have to be inoculated from an isolate lc or something. Genetic dispersion in the multi spore is my only reasoning behind this.

I also wonder what would happen if you g2g to the other 2 jars to see which colonizes faster, or if it colonizes at all.

I am glad to see this experiment though!

Great minds think alike!
My intent is to transfer the colonized jar equally into the two uncolonized trash jars to prove/ disprove a statement made by mycoking earlier in this thread.

As for the healthy skepticism, I kinda thought the same thing. MS is unreliable and I don't mind constructive criticism.
Perhaps if I perform the next test using agar transfers?
I don't have any LC ready to go but could start some from some untested isolates I'm working on if that would be better.
Gimme some ideas here.

Your input is appreciated!

[cap]

does your mix contain hemp seed?
im curious if the hemp seed alone would do well as a 'stand-alone' grain spawn. by itself.
You see,
i have a feeling they (hemp), like flax, and sunflower, contain too much oils/fats,
and maybe other things that are beneficial in SMALL proportions,
but as a stand-alone grain for use by itself, being way overkill in those areas.
moderation hehe theres a point of diminishing returns, i s'pose, when dealin with high-oil content seed.
this could possibly be the reason the pure sf seed dont colonize worth a shit.
milo, and millet, are in there. im sure. and many, including an old grow partner used to use the same,
by themselves, as a stand-alone grainspawn, and felt them to be superior to wbs, despite the cost involved-
as organic bulk millet is pricier then wbs, in bulk,
but no worries of fungicides and filth, having to wash the wbs vigourously, boil, w/e!
sooooo.... that in iteself, may make it worth it, for some. millet may be the 'happy medium' between the hemp and sunflower seed types and other things like rye berries, seed, etc.
maybe someone will take this post and run with it if not, well, fuckem hehe

be weLL

[mycoking]

Quote:
seeing is believing. where, pray tell, are your pix ?

Sorry I don't have a digi cam. It is worth saying though that transfers have been of g2g clones, and I actually break the full size qt. jars to fruit them anfter they start pinning - they do contam fairly quick and the flushes aren't that great so instead of just letting it go down the drain it's worth it for the 2-4 dry g that I get each considering the jar is only worth about $.75.

[roc]

Originally Posted by mycoking

I beg to differ - I have saved the sunflower seeds and have g2g several times with the same results - the sunflower seeds are usually done in 1/2 the time as the rest of the wbs and for some reason they seem to fruit much faster on their own if left in the jars

I beg to differ... sunflower seeds are always strained from my soaking due to contam problems.
I learned this years ago and have not had problems since ridding my wbs of sunflower seeds. The squirrels luv it when old Roc preps wbs!

[wildburr]

Nice experiment. I'm definitely going to start removing the sunflower seeds when I do WBS.

[Freaky]

Originally Posted by Myc

Great minds think alike!
My intent is to transfer the colonized jar equally into the two uncolonized trash jars to prove/ disprove a statement made by mycoking earlier in this thread.

As for the healthy skepticism, I kinda thought the same thing. MS is unreliable and I don't mind constructive criticism.
Perhaps if I perform the next test using agar transfers?
I don't have any LC ready to go but could start some from some untested isolates I'm working on if that would be better.
Gimme some ideas here.

Your input is appreciated!

Thanks for the quality experiment Myc! I appreciate your work with it.
If you want to test your isolate lc, make up a few pf jars to test it. Then you'll know if the isolate lc is good, then you can shoot to test again on your wbs/sunflower experiment.

I know its a lot of work and stuff, testing and experimenting. I truly am thankful for folks who are willing to work this out for the rest of us!

[Myc]

Thanks for the input Freaky!
This hobby is all about experimentation for me so I really like doing this kind of stuff. It sometimes seems that precedures in teks are more based upon superstition than scientific method.

As for testing isolates, I've got a great new method:
Isolate on agar
transfer to pint grain jars
grain to pasteurized compost
compost is laid out in those small single-serve cake containers from the grocery store.
Works like a dream for small "bulk" grows!

[eatyualive]

nice. yeah i always leave that stuff in the mix, never had any problems with it.....and i get the real dirty wbs with birdkote on it..

[Freaky]

Real nice plan Myc! Those containers make for great small bulk projects.

[Myc]

So it appears as though my results support mycoking's statement(s).



The jars were originally innoculated with MS solution on 6/11
Shaken once
Were fully colonized by 7/4
Transfer was made on 7/11
Jars shaken once
Nearly fully colonized today 7/18
Interesting

I'm not sure what I've proven here though
No controls for yeild comparisons, etc.

So it's looks like spore won't germinate on the trash
But the mycelium will colonize at least the outside of the sunflower seeds.
Will fire up the flowhood and take some cross sections of the grains and sunflower seeds for comparison in a couple of days.

[mycoking]

Usually see pins forming about the same time most other equal size wbs jars (-the seeds) have finished colonizing if cooked/knocked at the same time. Granted the flushes are significantly less and the final products are a fraction of the size as straight wbs -the crap.

[hyphaenation]

Most interesting...

[Myc]

So I got around to dissecting a colonized grain kernel as well as a sunflower seed.

Material was selected from the jar

A kernel of each grain was selected and cut in half


It appears as though only the tough exterior of the outer shell of the sunflower seed was colonized.
The mycelium looks as though it penetrated the grain kernel and was present all the way through.
I suppose this is why the sunflower seeds appear to colonize faster. The mycelium simply runs on the outside of the shell rather than penetrating.
I wonder if the sunflower seed, once exposed and rendered accesible to the mycelium, will colonize based upon a hypothesis proposed earlier in this thread.
The dissected material was placed on a clean petri dish, wrapped with parafilm, and will be allowed to incubate further.

Will post results later.

[Phidell]

Nice work Myc, what date was mycelium noticeable in the 'cleaned' seed jar?

[Myc]

Originally Posted by Phidell

what date was mycelium noticeable in the 'cleaned' seed jar?

Germination date?
I'm not sure.
I innoculated and just let 'em go for awhile before checking.

[TVCasualty]

Originally Posted by Myc

It appears as though only the tough exterior of the outer shell of the sunflower seed was colonized.

That's what I've observed as well.

I suppose this is why the sunflower seeds appear to colonize faster. The mycelium simply runs on the outside of the shell rather than penetrating.
I wonder if the sunflower seed, once exposed and rendered accesible to the mycelium, will colonize based upon a hypothesis proposed earlier in this thread.

Eventually the mycelium gets into the seeds, but if I'm trying to grow with maximum efficiency in terms of time vs. overall yield the substrate is in the compost pile by then so their benefit is negligible (at best). That's one reason why I advocate removing them since they make up roughly 20% of the mass of the WBS. I'd rather fill that space with something easier to digest!

I'd really like to see a substrate made of 100% sunflower seeds fruit; I think that would be fascinating.

Great experiments in this thread, keep up the good work!

[~Hippie3]

no surprise,
mycellia will grow on just about any wet surface,
sunflower seeds or cardboard or even sticky fly trap tape.
but that truth in no way implies that
any of those are good choices for fruiting substrate.

[TVCasualty]

Originally Posted by mycoking

It is worth saying though that transfers have been of g2g clones, and I actually break the full size qt. jars to fruit them anfter they start pinning - they do contam fairly quick and the flushes aren't that great so instead of just letting it go down the drain it's worth it for the 2-4 dry g that I get each considering the jar is only worth about $.75.

Do you break all your jars or just the ones with sunflower seeds?

At 2 to 4 dry grams per quart, I'd have to say it would be much more worthwhile to give the seeds to the birds and squirrels and leave your jars intact. Over the course of several grows, this would become apparent as your overall yield vs. time ratio would improve significantly. Consider the yield per quart you get with clean WBS compared with the 2-4 dry grams from the seeds... Shouldn't all the jars be filled with the highest-yielding substrate?

[mycoking]

*Do you break all your jars or just the ones with sunflower seeds?

I only break pinning sunflower seed jars, then let them grow from there. Jars are only like $9 or $10 a dozen, less if you are resourceful, so in the end that case of sf jars can be a ounce to an ounce-and-a-half dry so it's worth it to hammer it. Now multiply that 2-4 g per jar times all the crap you're gonna throw away anyway - is it worth it to break as many jars as you can? To me it is.

[Myc]

Originally Posted by mycoking

that case of sf jars can be a ounce to an ounce-and-a-half dry so it's worth it to hammer it. Now multiply that 2-4 g per jar times all the crap you're gonna throw away anyway - is it worth it to break as many jars as you can? To me it is.

My personal method is to take one jar (usually quart)
Spawn it forward to h-poo or compost in a plastic tub (cat litter tray @ dollar store - $1.00)
Yeild at least 2oz. dry from the first two flushes
Store those and move on to the next species
No broken jars - no wasted materials -
other than the debated "trash" which will be addressed in a more tightly controlled experiment as soon as my isolate has finished on LC.
Then I can re-use my jars for other "pointless" experimentation
But that's just me.
The only consumables I have to replace in spawn culture
are spawn bags and the occasional canning jar lid
maybe some Glad Press-n-Seal

The point of the whole excersise here is efficiency
having jars year around to chronically baby-sit isn't very efficient IMHO.
I find that the yeild from just one tub
spawned with just one quart jar
produces more than enough for me
and still leaves me enough to give away
and that supply usually lasts them a very long time.
All from one humble - unbroken, reusable jar.

[TVCasualty]

Originally Posted by mycoking

Jars are only like $9 or $10 a dozen, less if you are resourceful, so in the end that case of sf jars can be a ounce to an ounce-and-a-half dry so it's worth it to hammer it. Now multiply that 2-4 g per jar times all the crap you're gonna throw away anyway - is it worth it to break as many jars as you can? To me it is.

So if I understand this correctly, from a case of jars you get somewhere between 24-48 grams (at 2 to 4 g per jar) and you have to buy a new case of jars at the end. Filling, sterilizing, and inoculating jars of sunflower seeds takes the same amount of time, effort, and electricity (or gas) as prepping clean WBS or rye or whatever. So, since the average yield I get from a quart of WBS is around 20 dry grams per quart (when using whole grain cased in trays and before I toss them outside where I usually get even more flushes), that same case of jars conservatively gives me over 8.5 ounces dry in the same amount of time you're getting less than 2.

To me, then, tossing out the trash means increasing my yield in the same amount of space and time by roughly 500%. That's the basis for my opinion that the seeds should be strained out and tossed. In terms of efficiency it's a significant enough difference to justify the effort of removing them and using more nutrient dense substrates, especially since many WBS blends are 20% sunflower seeds which is almost like throwing away 2 of every 10 quarts after going to the trouble of filling, PC'ing, and inoculating them.

[~Hippie3]

yeah, at only 2-4 gm per quart
even the lowliest neglected pf cake can beat that
in a 1/2 pint jar.

[mycoking]

Don't know how to answer this question without some serious self-incrimination on this open online forum that anyone can view so for argument sake I concede and say you win.

[captmaui]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

yeah, at only 2-4 gm per quart
even the lowliest neglected pf cake can beat that
in a 1/2 pint jar.

Wow really how many gms can one expect from a 1/2 pint jar from a single flush of let's say Puerto Rican ???

[cap]

puerto rican or shmorto freakin a cubie is a cubie and the average yield cracker dry off a 1/2pt pf cake is about 7g. and your mileage will and can vary dependant upon your choice of isolate or if usin spores to inoc.

[TVCasualty]

shmorto freakin?


If ya got one to spare, send me a print... sounds interesting.

[TVCasualty]

Originally Posted by mycoking

Don't know how to answer this question without some serious self-incrimination on this open online forum that anyone can view so for argument sake I concede and say you win.

They're after you, are they?

My own economic analysis of all this was apparently couched in slightly too-subtle terms otherwise you might have noticed that what I've said applies to your situation. My goal in all this is to help people create the highest yields the most efficiently. There is a well-established way to do that, namely analyzing every tiny detail of the process just like large corporations do; a totally unrelated example might be if you can shave ten seconds off a manufacturing process and cut costs by $0.01 per unit and you're making 100,000 stupid gadgets to sell to Mal-Wart you've just saved 278 man-hours (and the labor costs of those hours) plus $1000 in material costs. Everything you save you get to keep, so in this example you've just improved the efficiency of your factory by a significant amount although the individual per-unit savings seem insignificant. A penny here and a penny there soon add up to real money.

Besides, if you were really looking to 'get the Wal-Mart account' (that is, grow a shitload), you'd be using bags instead of jars anyhow.

[mestophilies]

Originally Posted by mycoking

Don't know how to answer this question without some serious self-incrimination on this open online forum that anyone can view so for argument sake I concede and say you win.

Just my 2 cents but isn't a little more incriminating in your area to be buying tons of jars like that? I know my local suppliers always look at someone a little strange if they can that damn much.

[Myc]

Originally Posted by mycoking

Don't know how to answer this question without some serious self-incrimination on this open online forum that anyone can view so for argument sake I concede and say you win.

Yeah man, we're not trying to beat you up.
If you'll notice, my results actually support some of your comments.
And I stated that each time with my posts in as unbiased manner as possible.
It's just that your argument is flawed
yet you hung on doggedly in the face of
(and you must concede this to your inner most self)
a much stronger argument in favor of efficiency.

The purpose of my research is to help the next guy.
As I was helped when I arrived here
With SOLID information
Based in FACT
And backed up with emperical data - photos, detailed method, controls, etc.
If the next guy wants to smash jars as you've suggested,
then more power to that individual - last time I looked out the door
It was still a reasonably free country.

[mestophilies]

Dude I realize I may have come across a little harsh I was just trying to point out that it looks a little more conspicuous sp? to keep buying more and more jars. If I offended at all I do cry mercy and forgiveness!!

[mycoking]

I don't take offense at all to anything anyone has said... And now that I think about it, my 2-4 dry is a bit too conservative, maybe 2-4 on flush 1 and more on subsequent - all I'm saying is that, Casualty I understand you're efficiency point, but I have tried to get every single seed out of a bag before and it can take hours and I've noticed very little difference between getting rid of the crap and leaving it in - I do have a contam ratio that is very high, but I can "absorb" it because of the amount I do and the space I have to work with. I just use wbs as spawn anyway.

[TVCasualty]

Once we become successful with a particular way of doing things, we tend to want to keep doing it that way. I know I do, and it takes one hell of a lot of convincing for me to change something since any deviation from the way I achieve consistent success risks creating a novel form of failure. That said, I'm constantly looking for ways to improve things since there's always room for improvement.

There's an upper limit to productivity for a given volume of mushroom substrate (regardless of the formula), and people have been tinkering with formulas and recipes for a long time now so any improvements we'll see are most likely going to involve relatively small details. For example, a contamination rate of 10% or higher is unacceptable in the mushroom growing industry since most companies do better than that, so if yours doesn't you're simply not going to stay in business. If the industry standard is, say, a 4% contamination rate (random example) then you can dominate the industry by keeping yours at 2.5-3.0%.

I know two economists who are paid a lot of money (one makes seven figures a year) to tell large corporations about ways to improve those tiny details since at the multinational level the big players are pretty much dead-even in terms of the efficiency of their factories and the minimizing of their costs and things like that. So, to get ahead in business these highly-paid economic consultants concentrate on being 1-2% better than the competition (2% gets you a seven-figure income). Being 10% better is totally unrealistic at that level (the competition hires consultants too).

Anyhow, that's just to say there's a reason some companies become Wal-Mart and some go out of business, and it's usually a difference of less than 5%. In the context of growing psychedelic fungi, I'm only talking in terms of maximizing efficiency for ourselves, not putting other growers out of business since these rules don't quite apply to the black market the same way and I'm not interested in ventures of that nature anyhow (I like a good night's sleep and prefer a low-stress existence and the stress-to-income ratio is much better with weed anyway). So, I look at it like I'm in competition with myself along with trying to develop habits proven to encourage success in general.

Lessons from industrial-scale success might be useful to apply to these smaller individual efforts, and it's a mindset we'll need to have if we're going to go big with any venture in life so IMO we might as well develop the right habits ASAP. A lot of hobby growers dream of a gourmet edible mushroom business or would love to sell how-to videos or equipment or be a spore supplier or somehow make a living from what they love to do without it being illegal. Once they make a serious attempt at doing that, they're suddenly in competition with everyone else doing the same and that 1-2% rule applies. Being slack about all the seemingly-insignificant details at that point dooms the enterprise to failure, and most will in fact fail. I focus on learning the hows and whys of the ones that succeed.

This is sort of a rambling semi-rant on the 'why' of my opinions about these matters; I'm not even really sure what I'm getting at other than to spell out why I'm so adamant about seemingly trivial things. If the psychonauts are ever gonna take over the world and turn it into a 'mycotopia', we got to know all the nuts-and-bolts details required to pull it off and one of the best sources for reliable info is the methods used by those who already have.

I suppose I'm talking about a much bigger subject than straining sunflower seeds out of WBS, but I think this little detail illustrates the Big Picture pretty well. It's all connected, so let's strain out those sunflower seeds and take over the world!

[~Hippie3]

Originally Posted by mycoking

Don't know how to answer this question without some serious self-incrimination on this open online forum that anyone can view so for argument sake I concede and say you win.

cop-out,
you had no problem until now...

[~Hippie3]

Originally Posted by captmaui

Wow really how many gms can one expect from a 1/2 pint jar from a single flush of let's say Puerto Rican ???

well PR isn't a good choice but typical pf cake yield is about 3-4 gm dry for 1st flush,
and a total eventual yield of 6-8 gm dry.
your mileage may vary,
but the low end for a pf cake, 1st flush, is ~2 dry gm
and i've seen many go 3 times that much.

[~Hippie3]

i do not think efficiency is always the primary concern,
for me i can live with some inefficiency
because my primary concern is to
GET AWAY WITH IT.
e.g. not getting caught being my primary concern
with a secondary concern of a fail-safe,
i.e. IF i do get caught
then MINIMIZE THE CONSEQUENCES.
then,
after my two over-riding primary concerns are addressed,
i think about maximum efficiency.
#3 on my list at best.
life is a long-term game
and i plan on playing until the end
as a free man.
so maybe i might not have the coolest grow op,
i want the judge to think the same way,
that i'm just a rank amateur with a ghetto set-up.
looking like a grow pro isn't helpful in front of a jury.

so what i'm saying is
for some folks it just isn't about
efficiency
and for them that's OK,
we should not critique their choice.

[TVCasualty]

All excellent points that I agree with completely. I did mention how these rules don't exactly apply in an illegal context, but I do think applying them as much as is practical (without increasing one's exposure to legal consequences) is a good idea, and I don't think straining out the sunflower seeds is going to make anyone appear to be a running a psychedelic mushroom cartel.

[captmaui]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

well PR isn't a good choice but typical pf cake yield is about 3-4 gm dry for 1st flush,
and a total eventual yield of 6-8 gm dry.
your mileage may vary,
but the low end for a pf cake, 1st flush, is ~2 dry gm
and i've seen many go 3 times that much.

sorry for starting this off topic thing but why is PR not a good choice??
any input is good!!!!
Thanks everybody
</IMG>

[~Hippie3]

pr can be hard to get pinning, slow

[Myc]

So the sterile plate with our colonizing bits of grain and sunflower seeds is ready for another visit.


Since we proved in the last autopsy that the mycelium does penetrate grain (milo) but only runs on the outside of the sunflower seed hulls, let's revisit the sunflower seed again.

As we can see from the photo, the mycelium has worked its way inside the hull and the exterior of the nut itself.

Upon sectioning the sunflower nut, it is clear that the mycelium does not penetrate the nut even when it's rendered readily accesible.
This leads me to hypothesize that sunflower nuts are unsuitable as a food source for this type of mycelium.
If one had access to unsalted, clean sunflower seed hulls, they could probably be used as a substrate material.

The results of this experiment lead me to believe that further experimentation with sunflower seeds is futile.
While the seeds do colonize more quickly, it appears unproductive as a spawn component/ food source when the nut is intact.
I'll continue to strain them out of my WBS during the pre-soak cycle and give them to the birds.