Cold Jars Damp Substrate

[steveK]

This is my first time growing in a long time,and I only had limited success back then,but I am determined to get it right so here is my question. My room is quite warm since I leave my space heater on all day ,and when I get home it is even a bit too warm for my liking. However my jars were totally cold to the touch for some reason. I dont know if it is because I have them inside the small box I bought them in,and they arent getting any warm air inside or what. I decided to open the box up last night and put the space heater closer to it ,but the jars are still a bit cool. Anyhow its been a week since innoculation,and no signs of mycelium yet. I notice that the bottoms of the jars are quite damp as well. I was thinking that if the jars were warmer perhaps some of this mositure would have evaporated,and maybe that is what is supposed to happen. Any suggestions are appreciated thanks !

[Dr_T]

You mean there's standing moisture inside the jars?
That's bad. Really bad.

I guess you are using cakes? Or what?
And... buy a thermometer. Actually, you probably want two or three. But one for sure.

[steveK]

it appears there is moisture and I have attached a few pics to show what I mean. Perhaps I used to much water in the pressure cooker or I didnt have the foil on the lids tight enough.On the other hand maybe the jars were just too cool as I mentioned.

[Skatterman420]

Probably too mushy for the myc to grow, if i'm right you'll smell something nasty within days.

and the stuff in the jars may turn reddish.

[steveK]

ok thanks for telling me what I suspected,but Im trying to get to the bottom of why its too mushy,whether its because the jars were too cool,or if it had something to do with an error in the way I sterilized them in my pressure cooker.I know I followed the substrate recipe to a T. I really cant understand though why the jars would be so cool in a room thats so warm. I am sure if I got a thermometer the room would read around 80 degrees for sure. It is very cold outside here in Canada and I am in the basement,so maybe its the fact that they were close to the floor,and the heat from my space heater doesnt heat up the air near the floor as much .

[Dr_T]

They look nicely colonized- I'd go ahead and either spawn them or fruit them as-is. Leaving them in the jars isn't going to do anything good.

[coorsmikey]

What tek are you using? Is it the standard PF? It is hard to tell from those pics, but to me it looks like you forgot the vermiculite. Is that just straight BRF and water? Or am I just seeing things?

[PsilocybeChild]

He said there's no sign of mycelium. So is that white rice?

[Skatterman420]

If using plain rice, simmer till hydrated then drain well, then fluff with a fork. Add a lil dry verm to the bottom of the jar and it usually works out for ya.


If doing pftek first hydrate ur Vermiculite till it's only dripping a few drops then grind up the rice and add it to the wet vermiculite, adding the dry rice flour really fluffs it up and gives it a perfect moisture content for fast growth.

Oh and big temp shifts will cause the grain to sweat, and will mess you up. I get wetspots sometimes and I just put the jar in a window with sunlight on the wetspot, usually clears it up.

[Dr_T]

Originally Posted by PsilocybeChild

He said there's no sign of mycelium. So is that white rice?

Oh, my bad.

[steveK]

"What tek are you using? Is it the standard PF? It is hard to tell from those pics, but to me it looks like you forgot the vermiculite. Is that just straight BRF and water? Or am I just seeing things"

I am using brown rice with vermiculite.

"They look nicely colonized"

I dont think that they are colonized ,its just that the cakes got very pale especially at the bottom,so they look almost white,but Im quite sure it isnt mycelium,but I guess I will be more sure after a few more days. Thanks for the responses,maybe I will add a few more pics in a couple days.

[coorsmikey]

I believe the standard PF formula is 2 part verm: 1 Part BRF: 1 part water. Is that what you used? If so I don't know what to say. If you don't see anything in a few more days I would start over.

[steveK]

yes thats exactly what I used,and I am sure there is standing moisture on the sides and bottom of jars. As I said I am wondering if its possible that its because the jars were just cold. maybe I should have had them out in the open with the heater pointed directly at them.Also has anybody had a poblem with water getting into their cakes while they were in the pressure cooker since thats another possibility?

[Dr_T]

Here's what I think- start over.

The standing water is bad, and it probably isn't going to get better. If you are using your pressure cooker correctly, you shouldn't get water in your jars. If you have a proper incubator, your jars shouldn't get cold. Under no normal conditions will water ooze out of cakes. And they definitely shouldn't change color like that.

So, build an incubator. Use a thermometer, and make sure the temp inside is appropriate. Review the owner's manual for your pc (find it online if you don't have the original.) Re-read the tek you are using to make your cakes- print it out is the best way. If you have more empty jars, the jars you have in the pics can be left alone until they either colonize or start to smell bad. Otherwise, don't waster your time- toss 'em.

[steveK]

thanks dr T,sounds like a plan,but I am still wondering if water got in through the pressure cooking process if the aluminum foil wasnt on tight. The instructions that Ive used didnt say to make sure the foil was on tight,but I couldnt help but wonder if steam got under the foil and into the holes somehow. Couldnt this happen if the water level was a bit high and the foil was just fitted loosely on top?

[Dr_T]

Could it? Maybe.
I have the water maybe 1/2 inch to an inch up the jars- say one or two centimeters. And the foil, I put it over then tighten it down with my hands.

If your room is really as warm as you say, you don't really need a separate incubator- but it's unlikely that your room maintains a steady temp. So get a big styrofoam cooler and a heatbomb, or some other method that seems workable.

And get a thermometer.

[steveK]

thanks again dr T ,I will be sure to do these things next time. You are probably right that my room isnt always the same temp,especially now in the middle of winter here in Canada,and I do turn the heat way down for a while when it gets too hot for me.

[Skatterman420]

I think this will solve your problem, other then temperature fluctuation

" If doing PFTEK first hydrate ur vermiculite till it's only dripping a few drops then grind up the rice and add it to the wet vermiculite , adding the dry rice flour really fluffs it up and gives it a perfect moisture content for fast growth."

[steveK]

thanks scatterman,but are you saying that I shouldnt be measuring the amount of water I use,but should just add whatever amount makes the vermiculite slightly damp? Also I am just using brown rice flour ,so if you could explain why its much better to use ground up rice that would also be appreciated. I just checked my cakes today,and one of them has some small but definite signs of mycellium happening .

[mydarling]

i think the source of the water pooling would be temperature fluctuations in the room. if you followed the recipe and used proper water volumes, that seems the most likely culprit. i get condensation if i keep my jars/tubs near a window (even if it is closed), as day-night-day transitions causes some temp shifts there. i now keep all my projects in the middle of the room away from the windows or in closet with temperature control, and this seems to have helped a lot with water pooling.

[Dr_T]

Well, the verm will absorb differing amounts of water based on differences in the shape, size, and structure of the grains. But I think it's pretty subtle- you're bettter off measuring for the first few batches.

And people say that home-ground seems to work better, the mycelium seems to prefer a somewhat coarser texture of flour. Storebought will work, but if you have a coffee grinder, it's better (and cheaper) to make your own.

But if you've got mycelium growth- hooray!

[TVCasualty]

Steam getting under the foil isn't causing the pooling. The whole point of PC'ing is to get the steam everywhere so it sterilizes everything. If the sub wasn't oversaturated when you filled the jars (it probably wasn't since it would resemble mud) then water got in during the PC run.

I use enough water in my PC to cover the rack plus about 1/4 inch of the jar. That's always been plenty for a single run, but when using minimal water be sure to check the level if you do a second run. I also quit using foil for my BRF jars years ago; if anything I think foil may promote water infiltration rather than prevent it since the tiny space between the foil and the glass could act as a wick no matter how tight you wrap the foil on (overlapping metal roof panels can sometimes wick water up some surprisingly steep pitches). I do use Scotch tape over the holes for the PC run though. Using way too much water in the PC can flood your jars too, obviously.

I also have yet to grind my own rice. I just buy pre-ground rice flour but I only use BRF jars as a precursor to making my slurry-in-a-hurry for inoc'ing WBS, so fruiting results and yield are not an issue for me. I like saving the step of grinding, and the noise. I used to fruit them (from pint-sized cakes) and my yields were almost as good as people who grind their own, ~ 10 dry grams per cake, give or take.

For incubating, definitely keep the jars up off the floor, as in way up. Around 90% of airborne contaminants are within 12 inches (~ 30 cm) or so from the ground, so higher is cleaner. Also, it's warmer up there if you lack a dedicated incubator (I have never used an incubator myself). The closest I came to an incubator was putting the jars back in their original box and closing the flaps (now most jars come in different style boxes that lack a top). The heat from the myc. growing let them self-incubate. I stuck a thermometer in the box and opened the flaps if it started getting too warm.

My guess is that it won't be long until you're doing the pin dance again...

[steveK]

ok thanks everyone for the useful advice . The only comments I dont get are by TVcasualty :
" Steam getting under the foil isn't causing the pooling. The whole point of PC'ing is to get the steam everywhere so it sterilizes everything. If the sub wasn't oversaturated when you filled the jars (it probably wasn't since it would resemble mud) then water got in during the PC run."

I dont understand if you say water got in during the pc run ,then why would you say steam under the foil isnt causing the pooling. Are you simply saying I may have used too much water,but if so the only way the water would get into the jars under the foil would be through steam correct?Also if the whole point of PCing is to get steam everywhere and sterilize everything then why do you tape the holes. I have never read about doing this before.
Thanks for the tip about keeping the jars off the floor though since that may prove very helpful.

[TVCasualty]

Originally Posted by steveK

I dont understand if you say water got in during the pc run ,then why would you say steam under the foil isnt causing the pooling. Are you simply saying I may have used too much water,but if so the only way the water would get into the jars under the foil would be through steam correct?Also if the whole point of PCing is to get steam everywhere and sterilize everything then why do you tape the holes. I have never read about doing this before.
Thanks for the tip about keeping the jars off the floor though since that may prove very helpful.

The steam in the PC is dry steam (technically speaking) once it's hotter than 212℉/100℃, and in that state steam actually contains very little water relative to it's volume. When the steam cools off and condenses back to water, the volume is reduced so much that certain PC's form a very strong vacuum.

The water that gets into jars does so in liquid form, not as steam. When the water boils vigorously (like just before putting the weight on it or closing the valve, depending) the bubbles rise up the sides of the jars, bringing water with them. That water can get trapped between the foil and the jar, and the wicking action of water (caused by it's surface tension) literally makes it move straight up under some conditions. You can see this by letting the PC come to a full boil with the lid still off; watch and see how high the bubbles climb up the sides of the jars.

The tape I use does not prevent the steam from penetrating my jars, but it will keep liquid water from dripping in as the steam condenses. The tiniest gap is plenty; just using the lids upside-down is enough to prevent them from sealing. Also remember that the steam is at 15 psi; that's plenty of pressure to force the steam into the smallest little imperfection in the glass, a place that boiling water can't reach (due to surface tension from being in a liquid state).

[Sidestreet Getaway]

Originally Posted by coorsmikey

I believe the standard PF formula is 2 part verm: 1 Part BRF: 1 part water. Is that what you used? If so I don't know what to say. If you don't see anything in a few more days I would start over.

I was using that formula and didn't like the amount of moisture I was getting using it, so I upped the verm to 2/3 a cup per jar and that's what I like today. Just an idea; it works for me...

[steveK]

The tape I use does not prevent the steam from penetrating my jars, but it will keep liquid water from dripping in as the steam condenses. The tiniest gap is plenty; just using the lids upside-down is enough to prevent them from sealing. Also remember that the steam is at 15 psi; that's plenty of pressure to force the steam into the smallest little imperfection in the glass, a place that boiling water can't reach (due to surface tension from being in a liquid state

Im trying to understand exactly what this means. Are you saying there should be a tiny gap to allow steam in,or there should be no gaps at all to keep the water out? Using the lids upside down? Why would someone consider doing this?Thanks for your time in explaining these things so far. Im sure you know much more than I do about them,but now that you have me thinking I want to be sure I know what youre talking about.A few more of my jars are showing small spots of mycellium now by the way,hooray!

[steveK]

I upped the verm to 2/3 a cup per jar and that's what I like today

I assume you mean per 250 ml jar? How does that translate in terms of verm/water/BR ratio?

[Looky]

Make sure that the foil is on nice and snug. You don't want any moisture to get under the foil. People use the lids upside down sometimes because it makes it easier to get the lids off. I thought the lids should be upside down when I drilled my holes so now if I use my lids right side up I have sharp metal points sticking out so I just keep then upside down. It really doesn't make much of a difference which way the lids are IMO. As far as the temp issue, you can just put some blankets around the box and that should help insulate it and raise the temperature a little. 80-85 is pretty good, 70 and they will take forever and stall out. The first pictures you put up really do look very white like they are 100% colonized. I know that often times once they are colonized they sweat. It must just be the picture. I would also stick to the 2:1:1 ratio exactly. I have found just a tiny bit too much or too little water makes a huge difference and can be the difference between success or failure.

[Skatterman420]

Originally Posted by steveK

thanks scatterman,but are you saying that I shouldnt be measuring the amount of water I use,but should just add whatever amount makes the vermiculite slightly damp? Also I am just using brown rice flour ,so if you could explain why its much better to use ground up rice that would also be appreciated. I just checked my cakes today,and one of them has some small but definite signs of mycellium happening .

So your using already ground rice? And yes I never have used a set amount of water, I get the verm wet until its a lil over wet then add my other dry ingredients. I don't know how finely ground your rice flour is, I think its better to grind it yourself because you can grind the rice to where its a bunch of 1/4s of a grain of rice and it won't become as mushy and will colonize faster.

[steveK]

you can just put some blankets around the box and that should help insulate it and raise the temperature a little. 80-85 is pretty good, 70 and they will take forever and stall out. The first pictures you put up really do look very white like they are 100% colonized. I know that often times once they are colonized they sweat. It must just be the picture.

I didnt bother with blankets but I took a few off the floor and left some on the floor but in a box which is on its side and is facing my space heater so the sides off the box trap the air. I left some on the floor just to see if they will grow ok down there without contamination. The jars are definitely not so cool as they were and now 4 of them are showing some cottony mycelium. I am sure it was a very cool draft near the floor that was keeping the jars below 70 degrees even though the rest of the room was around 80. I know those pictures make them look like they are fully colonized,but it must be my cheap cell phone camera because that is only substrate ,and the real color is a pale beige.
Now that I am having some success I want to do another dozen jars or more,to make sure I have a decent size crop in a month or so. I live in a small room and space is an issue,so I want to use a stackable,or shelved operation . I know they will need light and air,so I am just wondering how many growing chambers I can get on top of one another.

[Dr_T]

So, what temperature is it in the incubator?

[steveK]

its just a box on its side which I kept a few jars in,the rest are just sitting on a table high off the floor. Sorry I know you have recommended a thermometer,which I still havent gotten around to getting,but I know the jars are now warmer,and dont look as damp,so right now thats good enough for me especially since 4 of them now have growth. Anyhow I am sure I will get around to monitoring temp more carefully once I get more into it.

[Dr_T]

Well, ok- next, I don't think blowing air into your incubator is a good idea. I think you'd be better off to have it closed. It keeps a more stable temp, instead of bumping up and down, and it also allows a rise in CO2 which is beneficial at this stage.

Good luck, though!

[steveK]

ok thanks DR T,and so the ones on the table should go inside as well I guess. Oh well, I kind of liked just seeing them there . Anyone have some thoughts on how many rows/trays I could get one on top of another about 5 feet high? Is it closer to 4 or maybe 10?

[Dr_T]

No problem leaving some on the table- in fact, it will provide a nice comparison of room temp vs a proper incubator. Then you can see for yourself whether it makes any difference in your particular situation.

As for your second question- you're talking about bulk trays in a fruiting chamber? I have a four-tier greenhouse that I use. I rarely fill it up, but I could put 9 shoebox trays in it if I wanted to.

Cakes are less space-efficient, IME. I don't know the max number you could put in a given space, but just start with one batch and get those to work, worry about moving up after that.

[steveK]

Thanks again Dr T,I guess what I am really asking is how much headroom do the mushrooms need to breathe? Once I figure that out I will have a good idea of how many shelves of cakes I can fit in the corner of my room.

[ShroomGuerilla]

I suffer from the same problems. Cold-mafuckin canadian winters.
Incubators are KEY. Tub in Tub with an aquarium heater does me good. If I left mine out, it would take over a month to colonize. Incubate! Mono-tubs are good FC's if you have a warm room to put them in!

Good Luck!

[Dr_T]

Originally Posted by steveK

Thanks again Dr T,I guess what I am really asking is how much headroom do the mushrooms need to breathe? Once I figure that out I will have a good idea of how many shelves of cakes I can fit in the corner of my room.

Not much, they can grow up right against the lid.
So, less than a foot (30 cm) for the whole thing, tub and shrooms.

I don't live in Canada, but do live where it's cold- our high today was just up to freezing, 32F/0C. So, I know how it goes.

[steveK]

I had to throw out a few jars due to some green contam,but I still have three lookin good anyway. I just bought a syringe of Gulf Coast and cant wait to get started on this batch now that I know much more than I did before the last one.

"I suffer from the same problems. Cold-mafuckin canadian winters.
Incubators are KEY. Tub in Tub with an aquarium heater does me good. If I left mine out, it would take over a month to colonize. Incubate! Mono-tubs are good FC's if you have a warm room to put them in!"

thanks much for the wise Canadian advice shroomguerilla!

[steveK]

Just bought a coffee grinder and some organic brown rice ,instead of the BRF I have used so far,so Im definitely hoping for better results this time.

[Sidestreet Getaway]

Quick tip: don't try to grind your brown rice down to a fine powder like you get in stores. You'll go through coffee grinders quick that way (trust me)!

Plus, I think that rough ground brown rice colonizes faster.

I like using the stuff I grind myself. It's cheaper in the long run and easier to find bags of whole brown rice than the flour.

[steveK]

don't try to grind your brown rice down to a fine powder like you get in stores

thanks but I was aware of that and so yes I ground it quite coarsely. I did a few jars this morning and saw that the syringe was marked as Tanzanian Cub.,so I dont know if the clerk was stoned or what because I asked for gulf coast and he never even told me they had this kind. Anyhow anybody try this strain before. Also I am wondering if it would be ok to stack my jars in the pressure cooker since mine is only 5L and can only fit 4 jars at once otherwise.

[steveK]

I just did a search of the trheads and found the answer to my PC stacking question,and the answer appears to be yes. I tried doing a search for tanzanian but didnt find a thing though. Ive read good things about the asian strains though in terms of length of trip

[steveK]

Tub in Tub with an aquarium heater does me good. If I left mine out, it would take over a month to colonize. Incubate! Mono-tubs are good FC's if you have a warm room to put them in!

thanks again,but Im just using the PF cakes method now,and I figure I should just stick with that for now until I get it right,since it is supposedly the easiest to learn correct?

[Dr_T]

PF Tek is often easiest, but for your situation, it may not be.
Last winter I grew a tub of Orissa India mushrooms inside my incubator- didn't have the greenhouse yet, this was the best I could do:
http://forums.mycotopia.net/testing-...ter-flush.html (Orissa - Midwinter Flush)

You can use pf cakes to spawn to bulk, if you like. You don't have to use WBS or other grains. Though since you have a pressure cooker, you could sure try. But first you need a good incubator- either tub-in-tub, or a heatbomb inside a cooler.

[steveK]

ok so now I have an incubator which seems to be doing the job quite well. I took Dr Ts advice and got myself a thermometer,and it looks like the inc is holding the temp steady around 80-85. Not bad considering its about -10 degrees Celsius outside today. Anyhow I am using an empty milk crate which is on its side with some lps under the jars to dissipate the heat. The heat is coming from a small space heater which is blowing under the crate ,so its just heating up the bottom of it and the lps. I have about 25 jars in their which are stacked about 4 high,hope that sounds ok,I will post a pic soon.

[steveK]

I finally got myself a decent camera,and so I will upload a pic of my incubator steup as promised. As you will see its right beside my little tv,which is right by the foot of my bed,so its very convenient to keep a close watch on my jars while sitting comfortably watching shows. My first batch of 12 jars has been eliminated since they all became contaminated,probably due to the fact they were on the floor or I didnt have them in an inc,or because I used BRF instead of ground rice,or because too much water got in the jars or a combination of these things. I have noticed this time that most of the jars are showing decent growth after only around 5 or 6 days. Most of them also have myc growth at all 4 innoculation points which wasnt the case last time at all. However there still are some with little or no growth at all,and these ones seem to be the jars which look a bit drier than the rest. The ones which look a bit mushy have more pronounced larger areas of growth,and the drier ones are showing only small spots of growth if any at all. Would it be a good idea to add a bit of sterilized water to the drier jars now? Also should I loosen all the lids since they are stacked as they are,and if so how loose ? Thanks for any help on this

[steveK]

The first jar pictured is one with moist substrate on one side of the jar with very good growth,the second jar has lots of moisture all over with good growth,and the last jar is a drier jar with no growth.Im not worried about ruining those lp records in the incubator with the heat,since they are almost worthless. I am an lp dealer so I am sure about that. Bear with me folks I am still new to this,but like I said in my first post,I am determined to get it right this time.

[Nord]

I guess a dro pof food dye in the boiling water in the PC would help identify if that is makeing it's way into the pot...

[steveK]

thanks Nord,I guess you meant "drop of". Are you sure one drop would be enough ? Also I didnt bother taping the holes before putting jars in PC but I will likely try it next time. I dont understand why about half of the instructions ,or posts I read about it suggest doing this,and the rest say that foil alone is fine. I was stacking them in the pc by the way,but I dont remember if the ones on the bottom were the dry ones or the moist ones.