Grain Spawn w/o Shaking?

[mobius]

Hi guys,

I just undertook my first bulk grow project using Panaeolus cyanescens (the "Copelandia" or "Blue Meanies" species), and I naïvely filled the quart-sized jars 90% with birdseed, then to the top with verm.

So, I can´t shake.

Also, I inoculated via spore syringe into the center of the spawn jars, not onto the surface (which I believe would have been a fine move, if I could shake).

It´s been 5 days, and still no signs of growth of any kind on the outer surface of the jars. Should I wait, or discard?

I´m pretty sure I didn´t use too much water in the seed (I boiled lightly for 25 minutes, then rinsed heavily, and let sit in a strainer to drain for 15 minutes).

[Om shanti]

How can you see whether or not the spores are germinating when you only inoculated into the center? As far as I understand what you write, they might well be germinating in there! They will definitely take more than 5 days to race from the center to touchdown at the edges of the jar.

Grain can work without shaking, it's just that shaking can speed things up by spreading spores and later mycelium around for maxium number of colonization points. I have done exactly the same WBS 'cake' with verm barrier TEK as you are doing and it worked just fine. That was in drinking glasses, maybe about 200 ml, but I inoculated at 4 points like with cakes. If the spores are not germinating I don't think it's because you used this tek.

I don't know about the preparation tek, I only used WBS very few times and then I soaked it for 24 hours. But I've heard of a tek similar to the one you describe.. but better let some more knowledgeable persons comment on that.

What are your temperatures? In my limited pan experience (with pan cambodgiensis, I presume that's comparable) they really like high incubation temperatures.

I wish you good luck with this grow, and if - may the Great God Pan forbid that- something goes wrong and you're short of pan spores then send me a PM, and I will send you a fresh print.

[Awestruck]

Om shanti pretty much summed it up very well there.
The pans that I have had going were much slower to colonize the WBS than cubes, so don't get too impatient and toss them out. Give them at least 3 weeks.

[Foster]

I´m pretty sure I didn´t use too much water in the seed (I boiled lightly for 25 minutes, then rinsed heavily, and let sit in a strainer to drain for 15 minutes).

That was just your prep for the wbs correct? You did pc after that?

Give it some time, be patient. Sometimes takes longer than 5 days just to germinate the spores. Then another week to see the myc growth when you innoculate in the center and under a verm barrier.

Many folks seem to be having longer than normal times for colonizing, pinning/fruiting pan lately. But for the most part I believe the overall consensus would be they are faster than cubes. Colonization, and pinning/fruiting anyway. Spore germination times are probably comparable.

[BlazedChillin]

I let my seed drain for at least a half hour, can you see water collecting in the bottom of your jars? If so they are too wet. But still just wait and see what happens.

[sandman]

You'll see growth on the very bottom.

[Hippie3]

Originally Posted by sandman

You'll see growth on the very bottom.

IF you used enough innoculant
so some trickled down-
always a good idea imo .

[mobius]

Hey all,

Thanks a lot for the replies. The jars are still having trouble, but there are now signs of growth. Here's an update, plus a couple of questions. (Sorry about the lack of pics, I'll be sure to upload some later if it's still relevant.)

In particular, one quart-sized WBS jar is almost fully colonized in the top half of the jar, but the bottom 50-60% shows no growth at all. (Q1) Is this a bacterial infection, or just an expected result of the fact that I can't shake? Other jars have slight signs of mycelium growth. (Q2) Assuming I should still go ahead and case, should I use all the grain and mix it up, or just use the grain with myc. growth?

Om shanti: Great info, thanks! I've been keeping the jars in a "tub-in-tub" incubator, with the water in the bottom tub at ~82 degrees F, so that should be right in the range that the Pan's like.

Foster: Yes, I did PC after all that prep.

Thanks again!

[mestophilies]

Don't spawn to a bulk sub until your jars are 100% your opening the door and offering a beer to contams that way. If your myc looks good and healthy (read: white) on the top half, close your eyes, thank god and put it away for a while longer You want all of the grain to turn white.
As for your prep, you should be ok....check out lazlo's tek in the vault also, good stuff there. Best of luck! Post pics of the half done jar if ya can...

[Om shanti]

I agree with Mestophilies, it seems a bit too early to conclude the mycelium in that jar has stalled completely. It's probably, as you suggest, because only the top part was inoculated.. If it turns out it is 100% sure that it has stopped growing from the top towards the bottom then you're right that you should only use the most colonized part for transfer.

If there is any bacterial infection you will most likely be able to smell it just by sniffing close to the lid's filter or the foil, if you use foil instead of a lid. I just threw out some WBS with a bit of horsepoo/straw mixed in, that I tried an "experimental sterilization" of just a few days back (loading 70% water (by weight) into the jars and then pc'ing). There was no need to open the lids to smell something was wrong, and when I did empty the jars, it smelled like Satan had just been puking sulphorous hell gasses all over my kitchen! (BTW, the WBS I prepared the same way but without the horsepoo/straw in seems to be doing ok.... so far, that is.)

Fingers crossed for your grow! :-)

[Awestruck]

I recently had a pan jar that was colonizing top down. It looked like it stalled out, but then the growth picked back up after a few days. That doesn't mean that you have the same situation, but there is hope that it is a similar situation.

[Scratch]

Originally Posted by mobius

In particular, one quart-sized WBS jar is almost fully colonized in the top half of the jar, but the bottom 50-60% shows no growth at all. (Q1) Is this a bacterial infection, or just an expected result of the fact that I can't shake?

patience, grasshopper

[mobius]

Hi guys. Here are pics (as promised) from exactly 2 weeks after inoculation.

Do you guys think these are stalled due to bacterial infection? Should I keep waiting?

Also, I plan on going out of town for 2 weeks and leaving them in the jars unsupervised, then casing when I return. Any advice/suggestions regarding this plan?

Thanks again for all the help!

[Om shanti]

1 - What do you mean by stalled: for how long was there no growth?

2 - Do you smell anything at all? Just mycelium? No funky odors?

If you don't smell anything bad when you sniff around the lids/filters like a police dog for a few seconds, then I think they are probably ok.

The jar in the very last photo does look a little funny to me, but if there's no smell it's probably just another occurance of the 'weirdness of Pan mycelium' - (see this thread Foster posted some time ago http://forums.mycotopia.net/exotic-m...dness-all.html). Others look very good to me.

[mestophilies]

Originally Posted by Om shanti

.....There was no need to open the lids to smell something was wrong, and when I did empty the jars, it smelled like Satan had just been puking sulphorous hell gasses all over my kitchen!

It wasn't me I promise!!!!

[mobius]

Well, I didn't smell anything (other than what I assumed was a normal grain smell), but it's been 2 more weeks, and that big jar looks... exactly the same as it did 2 weeks ago. So I'm willing to conclude that it did indeed stall.

The smaller (1/2-pint) WBS jars look about the same too. One is more colonized than in the picture, but none looks as good as the top half of that first quart jar (picture above).

So, I guess my first experiment with Panaeolus was an all-around bust. Thanks for all your guys' help; if I manage to come across some more Panaeolus cyanescens prints or syringes, I'll be sure to give it another shot.

On the upside, I have a few rye jars with B+ that look good and ready to case.