Recycling spent substrates for casing?

[Om shanti]

I'm trying it, but only about 10% to fresh coir+peat. But I was thinking of trying 50% or more next time.

Anyone did this?
What do you think? Too many nutrients left even after 3-4 flushes?

BTW, I sterilized this casing mix for 1,5 hours.

[calicyco]

I would imagine the dead mycelium would be nutrient rich for contams. Kept moist, wet dead mycelium is going to rot pretty bad, but never tried this. Interesting idea, can't wait to see how it turns out!

[Brakiska]

Sounds interesting, will watch

whats in the substrate youll be using?

[Om shanti]

I'm trying it now with B+ and Pan. cambodgiensis. Both are PF tek --> compost for growing agaricus which is basically something like ~70/30 or 80/20 straw/horsepoo with a bit of chicken poo in.

The pans are a bit uncertain because 1) I used two cakes I had given a straight verm/peat/eggshell casing just as an experiment to see whether anything would happen (it didn't), so they have been standing around for some time, and 2) I didn't sterilize the compost I mixed these with (it's already been pasteurized but that happened maybe many months ago before I got it, and the bag has been open for two months now). I'll report how it goes but the pans could obviously very well contaminate for other reasons.

I'm pretty certain the casing mix will work ok when it's only about 10% sub, and probably not much of any difference will be seen. It's more interesting what would happen if it was 40-50% or more of the casing that was recycled sub.

My first thought was to only recycle the old casinglayer. The recycled sub was a pan tray that had given about 4 flushes, and it was coir/agaricus compost cased with peat/verm.

[Om shanti]

My one experiment so far with using the old, spent pan substrate for casing went ok and didn't contam, but I only grew a single flush because I had to go on holiday. And I didn't get to using it since.

But now is the time to try again, but in a slightly different way. After reading logs several great experimental grows by Golly in the vaults, including peat cakes, compost cakes, stem butt additives etc, I thought I would try using some of the spent substrate I collected to make some cakes.

I grinded one part WBS, and mixed with two parts of the spent substrate. Then added some water, and a bit too much water perhaps, so I added a bit more spent substrate.

The top filter is what I had left of a mix I made for cactus seedlings consisting of peat, verm and some grit. Pure verm might have been better..

I just PCed them for around 75 mnutes. I will inoculate them tomorrow with b+ probably, because it's such a consistently good friend. I will report back how it goes, and if they colonize I will case them with some pure or 50% spent substrate.

It's not that I'm expecting anything out of the ordinary from this at all, I just thought I would give it a try, and hope the cakes colonize and fruit. :-)

The texture of the spent substrate is great though, so if it doesn't work for further mushroom growing I'll have to feed it to some plants, as I know many others here do.

[P4ulada]

Nice! I hope it works for u ^^
I heard lots of peoples telling about using coffee to revive the spent subs, but I don´t know...hight probably to have contamns if you don´t sterilize/pasteurize it (like coir).

Are you pasteurizing or sterilizng the subs to mix with the spent myc? I didn´t understand =/

Anyway, good luck! Best wishes =]

[zodd]

looking forward to seeing this through
good luck om!!

[Om shanti]

Thanks, P4 and Zodd! I pressurecooked the jars (small drinking glasses actually) for around 75 minutes. It's only 5 glasses/jars, so it's just a small experiment.

[P4ulada]

Hu, it´ll work! It´s a good tek to use...I don´t like to take out my loved cakes

[Om shanti]

Threw out everything due to bacterial contamination. I had not grinded the WBS properly, I think that's the reason.. I will try with Brown rice flour again now, just in case it's not just the many half grains and few whole grains left that caused the havoc. Because from that particular bag of WBS in the picture above, I got nothing but bacteria now, no matter which tek I use.

Will give it a few more tries at least. :-)

[zodd]

may be fungicides?

[P4ulada]

Yeah Shanti! Keep trying ^^
Do you think that the bacterial spores are in the air in your place? =/

Good Luck!

[Om shanti]

I don't think there is a lot of bacteria floating around here, I am sure it must have been the grains and/or some reaction between the grains and the spent substrate.

Trying again: 3 glasses with BRF mixed into spent substrate (about 1:2.5), 3 glasses with some cardboard,vermiculite and oat bran mixed with spent substrate (about 1:0,20:0,10:2).. I'm not sure about the latter recipe especially, but I just want to see if it develops bacteria as fast as the ones last week. The barrier is vermiculite this time.
Sterilization: 90 minutes.

I'll wait a couple of days before I even think of inoculating these with anything. My hopes are not so high this time. ;-)

[copelandiaKidd]

best of luck. it would be good to know that i can get the most out of my moneys!!!!!

[Om shanti]

Slowly the BRF+spent substrate jars started smelling a bit, not too bad at first, but now it's unmistakingly the smell of bacteria. The jars with cardboard and a bit of oat bran mixed with the spent substrate don't smell.

Anyway, the experiment of making cakes with this substrate is off now.. I never had any bacterial issues with BRF, also the jars are on the dry side, so it must be the mix that doesn't work. I guess there is too much nutrition left in the spent substrate to mix it up with fresh flour, evenif it's all sterilized for 1,5 hours. But any other ideas about why it doesn't work would be appreciated.

I'll probably try using the rest of my bag simply as casing as I had originally intended, though I guess the casing might well still be so nutritious it's actually more of a bulk substrate.

[MLBjammer]

I had hoped you might report a glowing success. Ah, well, it was a good experiment.

[TVCasualty]

Originally Posted by Om shanti

But any other ideas about why it doesn't work would be appreciated.

One thing that came to mind was something I learned about trees that may apply here: If you plant an apple tree where a cherry tree used to grow, it will grow a lot faster than one planted in virgin ground, but if you plant another cherry tree where a cherry tree used to grow it will probably die and definitely won't thrive.

In this experiment, I'd guess the spent substrate is saturated with fungal metabolites just like the ground around an old tree is saturated with that tree's unique waste products (tree piss, I guess). That's probably strongly inhibiting the growth of the fresh mycelium, but there's still the possibility of using a spent substrate to inoculate a different species just like sequencing an orchard from cherries to apples. One organism's excrement is another organism's super-food, so by trying this experiment on lots of different mushroom species (including edibles) you might find a combination that works really well.

If supplementation of a substrate in order to maximize the potency is worthwhile (and it seems like it may well be), then making some kind of hot water extract of a spent sub, neutralizing it's pH, sterilizing it and using it to hydrate the next grow might be worth a try. I'd probably just drop a whole tray's worth of spent sub into a big stockpot with enough water to float it, simmer it for 10 minutes or so, filter out all the bits, then add some hydrated lime to bring the pH up to 7.0 and use it. If I had the slack, I'd love to try it but right now all my hobbies are off-line due to circumstances beyond my control.

[Om shanti]

That's a very interesting idea, TVCasualty, thanks for the input! I'll try and get some non-psilocybe/panaeolus spores to try it with, as I guess these two families of psilocybin containing mushrooms may be too close to expect that kind of synergy effect.

I'll probably try out this spent pan substrate as casing/bulk with a psilocybe species first, probably my old friend B+, just to see how it works. But I'll keep saving the leftovers for sure.

[zodd]

i think tv' was on to something there
another thing that might be worth considering is that different species might take different nutrients form the substrait and leave certain nutes behind, like with farming vegetables. ive been told that if you grow potatoes in a plot one year it is best to grow carrots in that same plot the next. i think this has something to do with the minerals and nutrients that the two plants need for healthy growth and the waste products being symbiotic with the others needs.

this threads just got interesting. Maybe you can use all your spent cubensis substraits to grow some edibles. Cant wait to see how this goes.

[TVCasualty]

Sequencing species is fairly straightforward for woodloving species (at least in the context of edibles). In one of his books, Stamets mentions sequencing three species on a single sawdust/wood chip block, re-sterilizing it each time. The first species may be a white-rot variety that consumes the lignin in the wood, then the next one eats the cellulose, and I suppose the third is a secondary (or tertiary) decomposer that eats whatever's left.

If we know what cubensis mycelium is eating and what it's leaving behind, we'll know which kind of species to try growing on the spent subs. From what it looks like to me, both grain and bulk subs are pretty much consumed to the point where I can barely tell what they were made of, so that might mean a mushroom that eats the mycelium of other mushrooms would be best to grow off spent cubensis substrates.

[Om shanti]

You're suggesting a systematic methodology..!? scary concept for a lazy man like me.

So what is a cheap way to get some soil tests done apart from befriending someone in a lab!? I heard about mail order kits for testing N/P/K content but not for many of the other minerals that would probably be important.

Of course mushrooms may also digest and thus deplete the soil of a number of minerals they don't even have any need for, as we know they can aluminium and some heavy metals. hmm...
-----------------------------
EDIT- Found this kit on UK ebay which tests for NPK
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEW-TENAX-GARD...item19b1bb9998

But I would like an opinion or two on whether testing for NPK only would be a waste of time, or if you think it provides sufficient information on the most important mineral nutrients, before I decide to buy it.

[TVCasualty]

Originally Posted by Om shanti

You're suggesting a systematic methodology..!? scary concept for a lazy man like me.

Well damn, I was suggesting it because I'm kinda lazy too. Now I guess no one's ever going to get around to it. Sigh.

But I would like an opinion or two on whether testing for NPK only would be a waste of time, or if you think it provides sufficient information on the most important mineral nutrients, before I decide to buy it.

Well, since you said "opinion," mine is that testing N-P-K won't be helpful as those stats are pretty much obsolete (but we won't see the N-P-K rating disappear from packaging for a loooong time I'm guessing) and was intended for plants anyway.

What would be more helpful is a way to test if the fungus is eating lignin or cellulose, how much protein is consumed/left behind, and things like that but I'm not sure how to test for them without expensive equipment.

[Om shanti]

Well, since you said "opinion," mine is that testing N-P-K won't be helpful as those stats are pretty much obsolete (but we won't see the N-P-K rating disappear from packaging for a loooong time I'm guessing) and was intended for plants anyway.

What would be more helpful is a way to test if the fungus is eating lignin or cellulose, how much protein is consumed/left behind, and things like that but I'm not sure how to test for them without expensive equipment.

Ok, I see. Yeah, testing for lignin, cellulose and protein does sound well beyond any home test kit, but I just did a bit of searching.

Perhps one could use test kits for kidney disorders to test for protein content!?

Lignin:

The Phloroglucinol-HCl Test for the presence of lignin (paper products)
Lignin is a natural component of wood and will be found in paper made of wood pulp unless it has been chemically removed. Lignin makes paper acidic, causing it to become discolored and brittle, and is therefore undesirable in archival materials, whether documents, books, or materials for conservation repair or housing. A simple spot test will detect the presence of lignin. The reagent is made from 1.0 gram phloroglucine + 50 ml absolute ethanol + 50 ml conc. HCl + 50 ml destilled water. One drop placed on the test material will turn red/purple is lignin is present. Actually a few paper fibres will be sufficient material, and the reaction can then be observed under microscope.

http://iaq.dk/papers/tests.htm#lignin

I'm not sure about cellulose testing, but I think it would be a simple matter to mix in some paper or sawdust to increase the cellulose content?

Just throwing out some ideas. If it's not too difficult or prohibitively expensive I wouldn't mind measuring my substrates for relevant variables before and after the mycelium has feasted. However, unfortunately prohibitively expensive is not very much in my current financial situation. :-)