Is this normal pan growth ?

[Raziel]

[Irishlion]

needs a bit more fae but, otherwise looks like their doing pretty good, I see some condesation on the casing layer, might wanna lower the humidity a bit by giving it more fae, casings require a bit more fae, like 3 times a day is good. They should start pinning anyday now. That growth looks a lil odd, like overlay going haywire, could be a genetic abnormality or vermeculium, or Wet Bubble – Mycogone perniciosa


did you sterlize that casing layer @ 15 psi for a hour?

[Raziel]

Yes it was sterilized. Doesn't look right does it

[Irishlion]

Originally Posted by Raziel

Yes it was sterilized. Doesn't look right does it

No those bubbles have me concerned, other than those it looks fine, how much FAE have you been giving it?

[Raziel]

The lid has 150 small holes covered with porous tape covering them. The fisr day and a half I didn't lift the lid at all but the last 2 days I have been fanning every couple of hours. I think it is contamintaion because from what I have read amber droplets are not a good sign and some of thoses "lumps" have amber droplets.

Anything I can do ???

[Raziel]

Sound like I have this

http://forums.mycotopia.net/glossary...ssary&term=154 wetbubble

[Irishlion]

Originally Posted by Raziel

Sound like I have this

http://forums.mycotopia.net/glossary...ssary&term=154 wetbubble

actually raziel, I think you may have Verticillium fungicola. or dry bubble

did you sterlized the peat seperatly like I said then mix them together, and then pasterize it, or mix them all together and sterlize it?

[Raziel]

Originally Posted by Irishlion

actually

did you sterlized the peat seperatly like I said then mix them together, and then pasterize it, or mix them all together and sterlize it?

Ummm... mixed them together then sterlized it all together

[Irishlion]

either of these dieases are casing based (wet or dry bubble), meaing they are usually contained in the casing layer and are a result of unsterile practices, or are transfered to the casing layer by unsterlize means, like not washing your hands with ISO, or changing your clothes after being outside or touching dusty and dirty things, if this proves to be what I think it is, it is almost impossible to get rid of, one might try removing the casing, dunking the sub in a light h2o2 solution, and then recasing, but, I said sterlize the peat alone due to peat being quite friendly with contamns, but, even if you mixed and sterlized that casing at 15 PSI for a hour or more then, it should have been quite sterlie which leads me to believe that you personally may have trasnfered the pathogen to the casing layer with your hands or on your cloths, I am not saying 100% for sure that this is what it is, but, I do know it sure the hell looks like it. Maybe TCO or space and chime in and we can get a concensis on what this is, I am leaning toward Verticillium fungicola.

[Raziel]

Is Verticillium fungicola toxic and will it still produce shrooms ? If it does turn out to be Verticillium fungicola should I bin this and start over ? Everytjing was going so well too :*(

Yeah I hope that TCO or space can chime in.

[Om shanti]

The two BIG bumps do look anomalous to me. What's the advice for this, Irishlion? To let it grow?

No chance this is just extreme overlay and myc piss?

I'm certainly no expert in this,,

Anyway since there is a chance I'm the progenitor of a sexually transmitted disease.. here are some pics from my grow for comparison. Bumps are not as dramatic, and I thought and still would think it's just overlay, and no one sounded an alarm with these. my casings were all sterilized for 1-1,5 hours in the pc. so maybe it's not related..

Here is one that developed a bump like yours... it wasn't take to underscore any 3-d effects unfortunately, but it's in the center to the right, and was probably raised upwards of about 1cm from the rest (from my memory). a bit in the left side too.
http://forums.mycotopia.net/attachme...mold-pins2.jpg

This heavy overlayed tray gave a lot of aborts in the first flush (below) but in later flushes regained some vigour and altogether probably gave as many shrooms as the other trays.
http://forums.mycotopia.net/attachme...old-failed.jpg

this one just overlay in the left side
http://forums.mycotopia.net/attachme...tray1flash.jpg

Well I hope it works out, Raziel!!!

[Irishlion]

Originally Posted by Raziel

Is Verticillium fungicola toxic and will it still produce shrooms ? If it does turn out to be Verticillium fungicola should I bin this and start over ? Everytjing was going so well too :*(

Yeah I hope that TCO or space can chime in.

Taken From "The mushroom culitvator" By paul stamlets

Class: Fungi imperfect!
Order: Moniliales
Family: Moniliaceae
Common Names: dry bubble ; Brown
Spot; and verticillium Disease.
Latin Root: From "verticillus" meaning
whorled or having branches on the same
plane, in reference to the shape of the conidiophore.
Habitat & Frequency of Occurrence: A
common parasite of the fruitbody.
verticillium is promoted during cropping
under conditions of excessive humidity combined
with inadequate air circulation.
verticillium grows within a broad
temperature range although warmer Temperatures
(62 °F. and above) are preferred.
Singer (1961) reported an optimum of 72 °F. verticillium abounds in soils and is introduced into
the growing environment via the materials composing the casing.
Medium Through Which Contamination Is Spread: Primarily transmitted from one infected
region to another by mushroom harvesters, flies and insects. Watering infected mushrooms further
spreads verticillium spores.
Measures of Control: General hygiene maintenance; proper picking and cleaning practices; removal
or isolation of infected cultures; increasing air circulation; lowering of humidity; and elimination
of flies and mites. If verticillium is evident before a crop is harvested, carefully pick the infected
mushrooms, seal them in a plastic bag and leave the growing room with minimal contact with unaffected
areas. Vertici/lium spores are highly viscous and are best transmitted by motile hosts,
especially rnites and other insects. Never water an infected bed until The diseased mushrooms have
been removed and the infected zones have been salted with alkaline buffer (baking soda, sodium
hypochlorite).
Macroscopic Appearance: Slightly infected mushrooms characterized by brown colored spots or
Figure 228 Conidia and sporulating structure
of VerficiHium.
316/The Mushroom Cultivator
streaks on the basal or upper regions of the stem and on the caps of developing primordia . These
spots become grayish colored from spore production. Afflicted mushrooms often bend towards the
side that is infected. If the mushrooms do develop at all, they are typically tilted to one side or the
other. verticillium attacks developing fruitbodies—the more severely infected are grossly malformed,
especially young primordia which are turned into sclerotia-like balls of amorphous whitish
mycelia . More mature but diseased mushrooms have a deformed Pileus , sometimes with a "hair
lip", and frequently with a downy grayish Mycelium over the cap. The stem can be covered with a
downy Mycelium and often vertically splits, roughly resembling a peeled banana. The cap becomes
disproportionately small relative to the fatter Than normal stem. The overall texture of the mushroom
is dry and leathery.
When this mold attacks Psilocybe cubensis, there are several additional characters worthy of
note. Parasitized P. cubensis caps frequently become plane at an early stage. The stem becomes
swollen and hollow, narrowing radically towards the apex. Only in an extremely humid environment
does a downy mildew develop over the cap and stem surface. The "verticillium spots" so commonly
reported by growers o&Agaticus, a white mushroom, are more accurately called "Verticillium
streaks" on P. cubensis, a mushroom with a brownish cap and a whitish stem.
Figure 229 verticillium attacking Psilocybe cubensis.Microscopic Characteristics: Conidia hyaline; unicellular; ovoid to ellipsoid; minute, measuring
1 -3 x 1-2 microns; borne singly or in small groups at the tips of narrow branches that whorl from a
central trunk at regular intervals. Conidiophores are slender and relatively tall.
History, Use and/or Medical Implications: Apparently inocuous, no pathogenic species are
known.
Comments: verticillium is the most common fungal disease parasitizing the mushroom crop and
the bane of both small and large scale growers. One misfortune of losing an early flush to
verticillium disease is the increased probability of other diseases appearing. Split stems open the
mushroom up to attack by numerous insects and other pathogens. Not surprisingly, the sciarid fly is
a vector for the spread of verticillium spores from parasitized mushrooms to healthy ones. It becomes
clear that if conditions are right for verticillium , the conditions are right for other molds. The
cultivator may soon have to deal with not one contaminant, but many.
verticillium malthousei Ware is synonomous with verticillium fungicola. Both are "brown
spot" fungi that envelope the mushroom with a fine grayish Mycelium and cause brownish lesions
on their surfaces. verticillium albo-atrum is another species in mushroom culture, although not as
frequently seen.
verticillium is specifically a casing related contaminant that parasitizes the mushroom fruitbody.
Other molds that parasitize the mushroom are Dacfylium and trichoderma . They can be
separated microscopically. Dacfylium spores are two celled and quite large (20 microns long) while
'those of trichoderma and verticillium are single celled and much smaller ( 4 x 5 microns and 2-3
microns, respectively).
An easy method for the home cultivator to distinguish verticillium infection from Trichod/rma
is to plate out the suspect mold on Malt agar media. If the mold is trichoderma , forest green colonies
of Mycelium will form. Other than green colonies of Mycelium suggests the contaminant be
Dacfylium or Verticillium,
Usually one sees trichoderma blotch simultaneous to or after the occurrence of green mold
colonies on the casing layer. If there is no evidence of green mold on the casing layer and the mushrooms
display these symptoms, then the mold is probably verticillium or Dacfylium. Dacfylium
can be distinguished from verticillium by its locus and manner of infection. Dactlyium is a grey,
aerial mold, fast growing and obvious on the casing . verticillium is primarily evident on the fruitbody
and scarcely seen on the casing.
Steane (1979) reported that Agaricus bitorqut's seemed especially resistant to verticillium disease
whereas Agaricus brunnescens was more susceptible to it. Furthermore, he noted that farms
regularly suffering from this disease could greatly reduce the level of infection by intermittently
growing A. bitorquis between A. brunnescens crops.
A saprophyte and parasite causing "wilt disease" of many plants, particulary garden vegetables,
verticillium is abundant in most soils. Some verticillium species are endoparasitic to nematodes—
their spores germinate in the mouth tubes of the nematode with the resulting mycelia quickly
digesting the organism from within. Other pathogens that have similar symptoms to one or more
of the various stages of verticillium are: Dacfylium; trichoderma ; Mycogone; and Virus.

[Raziel]

Thanks for the pics for comparison. If it is a contam then it would have come from my casing layer or my hands, I'm sure your print was 100% clean. I wish it is overlay and myc piss just not 100% sure yet. The beads of moister are tiny and there is definatly a grey brown tint to them.

[Irishlion]

Originally Posted by Om shanti

The two BIG bumps do look anomalous to me. What's the advice for this, Irishlion? To let it grow?

No chance this is just extreme overlay and myc piss?

I'm certainly no expert in this,,

Anyway since there is a chance I'm the progenitor of a sexually transmitted disease.. here are some pics from my grow for comparison. Bumps are not as dramatic, and I thought and still would think it's just overlay, and no one sounded an alarm with these. my casings were all sterilized for 1-1,5 hours in the pc. so maybe it's not related..

Here is one that developed a bump like yours... it wasn't take to underscore any 3-d effects unfortunately, but it's in the center to the right, and was probably raised upwards of about 1cm from the rest (from my memory). a bit in the left side too.
http://forums.mycotopia.net/attachme...mold-pins2.jpg

This heavy overlayed tray gave a lot of aborts in the first flush (below) but in later flushes regained some vigour and altogether probably gave as many shrooms as the other trays.
http://forums.mycotopia.net/attachme...old-failed.jpg

this one just overlay in the left side
http://forums.mycotopia.net/attachme...tray1flash.jpg

Well I hope it works out, Raziel!!!

I am hoping that it is overlay but, the yellow in those abnormalities is very concerning, my adivce would be to let it grow and we will see but, I think this is a pathogen, not overlay and if there is mycelium piss on that casing it means the mycelium is trying to fight off something. Let hope he gets fruits, Although this is something that I haven't had to deal with (thank god) do to my OCD when it comes to being sterile with casings, I have researched and researched and can find no evidence that Verticillium fungicola is toxic but, personally, I wouldn't eat any fruits that look like they are infected and damn sure wouldn't clone none of them and only print the ones that you know for a fact are clean or look clean and healty, if this does turn out to be overlay and lets hope it is, then you will be all well, but, me spidey sences say its not. But, the nice white puffs you are seeing are overlay yes. The bubbles with the yellow/briwish piss are something else I believe.

[Raziel]

Looks alot worse today, what shall I do ?

[Om shanti]

Damn.. it does look weird.

The descriptions of both wet and dry bubble seem to mention only infection of fruitbodies and not general mycelium appearance..But maybe the symptoms on mycelium are the same.

I would send a PM to the pan experts mentioned by Irishlion to ask them to look at the pics.

[the_chosen_one]

damn. that is weird! lots of overlay.. not so bad, but some kind of bacteria at work as well. never had this before myself. my past pan battles are typically with molds

are those cubies still in that fc? if so, how are they looking?

right now my guess is vert, but it does tend to manifest more in fruits. if you have time, don't kill it yet. we need more input.

damn bro! soooo close. might be able to treat it as irish said.. but i just don't know for sure. sorry. hang in there.

[Raziel]

My cubes were in the FC but I moved them out before I placed the Pans in there. Cubes are looking fine and producing fruits with no abnormal growths. So should I just let it be and see what happens ? only other thing I could do is scrap of the casing layer, dunk in bleach or h2o2... So closed This is my 1st time so I can always start over.

[the_chosen_one]

i'd sure feel better with the input of someone who grows a lot of pans.. but i got a feeling a bleach or peroxide dunk is in the future. i would try this before scrapping the whole thing. in the meantime get that next run started and clean the hell out of everything.



anybody pm waylitjim yet? or lazlo?

[Raziel]

Originally Posted by the_chosen_one

anybody pm waylitjim yet? or lazlo?

I haven't.

[Om shanti]

Well I don't know if either of you called for the experts already, but I will take the liberty of doing so now, just hope we don't end up spamming them. :-)

[the_chosen_one]

i had to log off. glad someone got that.

[waylitjim]

I'd let it grow out and see what happens. Pan cyan mycelia can look quite strange sometimes, but It appears you're growing something in addition to myc. I've never seen bubbles like that before. When healthy it should be thin and whispy, but it can look like icing when overlayed. Keep us updated.

[Raziel]

There are even more almost perfet spheres of brown beads of water appearing on the mycelium and the mucelium looks alot thicker and dense than normal overlay.

If this is verticillium could I scrap the casing layer off and dunk in bleach or h2o2, will it help ? I think if I let this grow out it will just get worse. I'm not sure what pan myc smells like compared to cubensis but there is a obvious sweet smell kind of like varnish or a sweet earth smell, only way to discribe it. Does pan myc smell like this ?

[waylitjim]

It shouldn't smell sweet, it's probably a bacterial infection of some kind. I don't think scraping the casing off and dunking will solve the problem, but follow your instincts. I'm curious to see what happens.

[Raziel]

Ok cool. Leave it to me, I willl alittle experiment using what I have learned here and report back

Thanks for all the in guys, will report back with pics when I have some good or bad.