Casing prep

[Heisenberg]

This is how I prepare my casing material.
I take 3 cups peat and add 1 Tb hydrated lime and blend well.
Then I add one cup coir and 3 Tb gypsum. Blend well, add 1-2c hot water.
(When I add water, I use 2 cups for bone dry material, or 1 cup with hydrated(to expand) coir and out of the bag damp peat).
Load into quart jars(4 cups material).
Water bath pasteurize @150* for 2 hours. The water height should be level with material in jars. I have to put an extra jar rack on top of the jars in the pot and put a qt jar full of water on top to keep them from floating.
At the end of pasteurizing, prep new canning lids as per instructions for canning(soak them in hot water). Siphon some water out of the pot so the jars don't float and spill. Place lids on seal side down and screw on bands and tighten. I like to leave them in the water a little longer until they cool enough to form a vacuum. This is water bath canning the casing material. I've had no contams this way, and material has stayed fresh for a month easy in the fridge. I'll try unrefrigerated storage and report how it works.

[Moose]

I've never used peat, just 50/50 verm/coir mix for simplicity, but many people do use peat. Since there's varying moisture content in your materials, i would suggest constantly testing the mix until you reach field capacity rather than just using set 1 or 2 cups of water. Almost identical pasteurization method to what i do and i've had great success with it. Very easy for home growing and other than having to wash the quart jars afterwards there is zero mess.

Does your name have any reference to "Heisenberg" in Breaking Bad? Great show by the way!

Moose

[wildburr]

Originally Posted by Moose

Does your name have any reference to "Heisenberg" in Breaking Bad? Great show by the way!

Moose

I was thinking more Quantum Mechanics and the Heisenberg who came up with the uncertainty principle

[BuckarooBanzai]

Cubensis doesn't need a casing.

IME, casing cubensis just slows things down by 3-5 days.

Cubensis fruits beautifully with no casing layer whatsoever.

[Heisenberg]

Yeah, the name Heisenberg is derived from Breaking Bad. Ever since, I've been on the market for a motorhome. Build a mobile lab.(Which would be excellant for wild edibles and mecidinals). I personally don't use verm in anything except cakes. Too damn messy, PITA to clean the fruits.
If I were into quantum physics, I'd name myself Dr. Sam Beckett.
Yeah, don't require a casing, but I perfer it, and I do a late casing which doesn't stall the fruiting if applied properly.

[Hippie3]

no offense but i hate peat moss because it's so damn dusty-gets EVERYWHERE,
even into other rooms a fine dust coats every surface.
and you have to mess with lime due to its' acidic ph ,
another nasty powder.
coir IS more expensive, but it's ever so much better imo ,
easier to work with too.

[BuckarooBanzai]

To each his own.

One thing about peat though; it is a non-sustainable resource. You can only harvest peat from a bog by destroying said bog.

I freakin' love Breaking Bad, by the way. Damned good television.

Sorry if I came off noxious in that first post. I have a personal vendetta against the use of peat (and the casing Cubensis projects in general).

I should have mentioned that in my post...

[Hippie3]

This is water bath canning the casing material.

now there's a novel idea.
bravo!
but i fear that the temp is too high-
how hot is that water ?
takes 212*F normally to can jars of high acid foods,
suppose peat counts as high acid alright.
still, 212*F is way past pasteurization temp of ~160*F.
can you go at lower temp and still
get a vacuum seal ?

[Heisenberg]

I Ph buffer the peat with the lime prior to mixing with the rest of the ingredients. The coir adds texture and extra moisture holding capacity. The coir prevents the peat from matting down, and the coir with peat doesn't overlay like straight coir, so it works great together for me. Plenty of foodstuff is prepared at pasteurizing temps, with descent
shelf life, so this method seems to work excellant for me. I shoot for a 150* material temp, and I monitor both the bath water temp and material core temp in several jars. I have yet to go overboard with moisture capacity. Underwatering works just as good as proper moisture capacity for me, as long as I don't overdo it. The jars sure do form a vacuum at 150* when sealed.

[Hippie3]

Plenty of foodstuff is prepared at pasteurizing temps

name a few.
?

[Hippie3]

The jars sure do form a vacuum at 150* when sealed.

interesting, i'll have to check that out with mine asap.

[BuckarooBanzai]

Ummm, how ya get overlay if you are late casing?

[Heisenberg]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

name a few.
?

Beverages of sorts(beer, orange juice, apple juice, etc.) Did I mention Beer? And dairy products....

[Heisenberg]

Originally Posted by BuckarooBanzai

Ummm, how ya get overlay if you are late casing?

Come third flush.

[Hippie3]

one does not can beer, it's cold brewed.
the alcohol content kills its microbes, not heat.

but if you are CANNING apple juice, for example,
the Ball Blue Book of Preserving
calls for the juice to be heated to 190*F
then processed an additional ten minutes
in a boiling water bath canner.

boiling water, of course being 212*F.
in fact
every fruit juice listed
calls for the same, heat to 190*F
then submerge in boiling water ten minutes
then tighten lids.

and of course
even 190*F is well above pasteurization temps.

[Hippie3]

of course that's largely irrelevant if you can get a decent vacuum at 150*F.
how are you measuring core temp,
just leaving the lids off as you heat the jars
so to insert thermometer ?

[BuckarooBanzai]

Originally Posted by Heisenberg

Come third flush.

If you have significant myc growth after fruiting has started (i.e. overlay come third flush) you are cropping too warm and spending energy on myc growth instead of mushroom growth.

[Heisenberg]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

of course that's largely irrelevant if you can get a decent vacuum at 150*F.
how are you measuring core temp,
just leaving the lids off as you heat the jars
so to insert thermometer ?

Yup, several calabrated meat thermometers and a digital oven themometer.
Please, I'm not looking to start negative vibes or anything bad, but to post results of my actual experience. I've read many posts about pasteurized material storage which is limited in info and and I want to know much more than what I can find here or elsewhere, so I have decided to experiment in pasteurized material storage. Just did some casing for a test start.(Nothing to case though, Port patch dried up and died).

[Hippie3]

no need to be defensive,
i'm actually intrigued by the idea
if the temp and vacuum are right.

[Heisenberg]

The lids are for sure indented verifying a vacuum, just like home canning. My theory is that material can be preserved the same way as perishable foodstuff if processed properly.

[Hippie3]

well, maybe if it's sterile
but if it's pasteurized -
then residual microbes
will re-populated eventually
one would think..

[TVCasualty]

Did someone say peat?!

The word "peat" gives me terrifying flashbacks of the time I spent struggling with it.

I had more problems directly related to using peat than anything else I've ever used in a grow except coffee. When I quit using it and switched to coir-based casings I not only didn't have to pasteurize anymore, I also didn't have to mess with the pH AND I've never gotten trich before harvesting the second flush, plus my flushes were always full canopies. I'd get spottier canopies with peat-based casings that fruited under the same conditions as the coir/verm casings.



Hip: I've helped encourage a vacuum in jars of sterilized casing soil with a foodsaver vacuum hose that I stuck a syringe needle on the end of (silicone adhesive works fine to glue the needle to the hose). I'd stick it through a silicone-covered hole (an airport port, I guess, only it's a vac-port) and turn on the vac for a few seconds while the jar was still hot but starting to cool. Once I 'prime' the vacuum by sealing the lid before it cools off very much, it forms a very strong vacuum almost every time (even with a used lid, to a point).

I used to sterilize excess casing soil for use as patching material; after harvesting a flush I could pop a lid off a casing jar and sprinkle it into big divots in the surface and fill in along the sides as the sub shrinks and pulls away from the edges of the tray (adds more water rez-effect style for later flushes). I quit bothering with patching after a while, but I had used sterilized casing soil for a while and sometimes left sealed jars on my table at room temp for months that worked as well as freshly made soil.

[Sidestreet Getaway]

I like where you guys' heads are at. Making up big batches of casing for storage sounds pretty good to me.

What if in lieu of a vacuum seal, buying new lids all the time, one just used a silicon lid like BBs? One sec, I'll find the link...

here it is: http://forums.mycotopia.net/jars-bag...icon-lids.html (BB does silicon lids)

[Sidestreet Getaway]

and really, what is the advantage of pasteurization over sterilization when we're dealing with coir and verm alone? Why not just sterilize?

[Hippie3]

the microbes left alive by pasteurization act to
inhibit and delay invasion by rival molds and bacteria-
sterilization leaves it wide open.
pasteurization therefore is for open-air use,
sterilization is for in jars/bags.

[Boboso]

LOL, I'm lazy as hell... I take Miraclegro moisture control (peat/coir) add some verm, and microwave 3 minutes, replace lost water, then another 3 minutes...

So far, so good.

[Hippie3]

that's partial sterilization-
you'd be better off
just using it fresh
straight from the bag.

[BuckarooBanzai]

When working with horse/cow poo and straw - Pasteurization is the only really viable answer. Sterilized HPoo and straw will virtually always contaminate.

When working with worm castings and coir, on the other hand, sterilization works fine. Coir seems to be almost antibiotic in nature - it virtually never contaminates by itself.

I have left hydrated coir in a plastic bag or 5 gallon bucket, sealed up and in the dark, for months without contamination. Same thing with worm castings. Castings always come out of the bag partially moist but I've never seen 'em come out of the bag contaminated.

You can't really "store" Pasteurized material for a long period of time. The process doesn't kill everything - some of the contaminants are just kind of "stunned." After a couple of weeks in a sealed environment, the contams will be growing again and would very likely contaminate.

You can store sterilized stuff (in a Mason that generates a proper vacuum seal) for quite long periods of time without contamination issues.

[Hippie3]

I have left hydrated coir in a plastic bag or 5 gallon bucket, sealed up and in the dark, for months without contamination.

same here.

[Sidestreet Getaway]

SO if I wanted to store casing for any length of time I'd have to sterilize it, right? Once I broke it out to use it, would it contam quicker?

I'm thinking of 50/50+ here.

[Hippie3]

or you could just make it fresh as needed,
gotta be as fast as canning the shiite imo .

[TVCasualty]

Originally Posted by Sidestreet Getaway

and really, what is the advantage of pasteurization over sterilization when we're dealing with coir and verm alone? Why not just sterilize?

A secondary advantage beyond making the substrate more selective for fungi is that you can use foil trays in an an oven, a pot of boiling water dumped into a big cooler, or a Wagner wallpaper steamer feeding into a trashcan to pasteurize a whole bunch all at once instead of however much your PC can hold at a time.

I've noticed that pasteurization becomes exponentially more effective once a certain threshold is reached in terms of time spent at pasteurization temp. Since the thermophiles only grow and reproduce at the higher temperature, that temp. must be maintained long enough to allow them to come out of dormancy and begin reproducing.

Subs I merely raised to 160F for an hour and then let cool and drain were far more prone to contamination than subs I held at 160F for at least two hours, and three or more was best. I noticed that the longer I let a substrate stay at pasteurizing temperatures, the longer it took to cool back down (and I accounted for thermal mass and related variables). My guess is that the longer cooling time is caused by heat generated by the activated thermophiles as they grow and multiply, and the more of them there are in the sub when it returns to room temp, the more resistant it will be to contamination.


edit to add: For verm and coir alone, I don't sterilize OR pasteurize. I only do it when I add poop or straw or some other material prone to contams.

[Sidestreet Getaway]

Originally Posted by TVCasualty

Subs I merely raised to 160F for an hour and then let cool and drain were far more prone to contamination than subs I held at 160F for at least two hours, and three or more was best.

I think Stamets would agree with you about longer pasteurizing times. I remember reading about that in Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms.

[Heisenberg]

Wow, didn't think this thread would be so popular.
I prepped 14 jars on monday, today they're still under vacuum. I put a dozen in the fridge to keep them fresh longer, and left two jars out for entertainment. Since my outdoor portabella patch failed due to some type of Coprinus contam, bugs and slugs,and the heat wave we had in the PNW a couple weeks ago, I'm looking into getting some more Agaricus cultures. Seems like Blazei is the shit nowadays.

[BuckarooBanzai]

The only dumb question is the question you don't ask.

I say that very often for two primary reasons:

1> If you don't ask, you will never know - wondering SUCKS!

2> Lots of folks read these threads. Most never comment and many never even join the site out of fear (this is why Hip lets even anonymous browsers see the full content of a thread). That is a conscious decision that many other sites don't make - bandwidth ain't cheap! When yer payin' tha bills, it is easy to say "screw the anonymous browser."

We is here to spread the knowledge and we understand fear/paranoia. We don't want that getting in the way of you learning this art.

Far more folks have read this thread than have posted to it. FAR MORE.

33 posts yet 177 views.

Always remember there is a much larger audience involved than those who reply/post. This is the primary reason we mods jump in and comment on ANY questionable advice...we all understand the mentality of of those "shadow lurkers" who are freaked to even register. Many of us started as unregistered lurkers - that is how I started.

We want the anonymous to know just as much as we want to answer your questions.

Never, ever, EVER hesitate to post those "dumb questions." Many of those "dumb questions" become discussions/debates that end up in the archives.

And I know diddly about cultivating Agaricus...sorry!