Spawn Bag Problems

[Tweexican]

I've been having a lot of trouble lately with excess moisture in my spawn bags. I am using the large pre-sealable spawn bags from Sporeworks. I believe I may be pressure cooking them incorrectly. Heres my procedure.

Grain Prep
Soak the rye for 24 hours then simmer for 20 minutes until grains are fully hydrated.
Let drain on a screen for 10-12 hours.
Mix in 5-6 cups of vermiculite per 5lbs of grain.

PCing:
Load bags 3/5 full.
Seal them and wrap top of bag down so that the filter patch is covered.
Pack into pc like this and pc at 15 psi for 2 hours.

Using this same batch of rye, I have made jars without any moisture problems. Unfortunately I am still seeing tons of moisture inside my bags after pressure cooking. It is bad enough that after cooling, the bags have water droplets all throughout the inside. I'm sure these bags are going to contam if I can't get this procedure down.

I have a feeling that steam is entering the filter during the sterilization process. Am I doing everything right?

[TVCasualty]

The steam in a pressure cooker does not add any moisture to the rye. When it's above 1 psi, the steam is "dry" and is actually drier than desert air (notice how the dry verm layer in PF Tek jars is still dry after being pressure cooked).

My guess is the grains may be getting oversaturated by the long soak and then simmering them. 24 hours is longer than any grain ought to be soaked, and then the simmering on top of that might be causing a lot of the grains to burst. Are you noticing a lot of burst grains? That would indicate something about the grain prep needs to be changed. With rye, a lot of growers just add dry grain and a measured amount of water to the jar or bag and PC it with no other prep at all. It takes a little trial and error to determine the right amount of water to add, but once you get that part figured out it's probably the easiest way to go for grain.

[Tweexican]

not one burst grain. I've been working with rye for about 6 years now so i think I have the prep down.

I will say this tho, i use a 41qt PC that has a separate steel jacket that holds the items you are sterilizing. After every pc cycle, there are about 2 inches of water in the jacket where before there was none... does that help?

[TVCasualty]

Originally Posted by Tweexican

not one burst grain. I've been working with rye for about 6 years now so i think I have the prep down.

I will say this tho, i use a 41qt PC that has a separate steel jacket that holds the items you are sterilizing. After every pc cycle, there are about 2 inches of water in the jacket where before there was none... does that help?

Ok, so you're not deviating from your previously successful grain prep procedure (a fact I was unaware of until you mentioned it and often found to be the culprit). Using a PC with an insert basket or whatever they're called is not very common, so that'd be another factor to consider. I don't have a sterilizer, but I do sometimes use a steel pot that fits nicely inside my 941 and I have to use less water in the cooker than I usually do when PC'ing with it. Until you put the weight on (or close the valve, depending) the boiling water bubbles up in between the cooker and the pot or basket or whatever and then settles around where the bags are sitting. Two inches of water sitting in it means it's not steam condensing, it's splashing over the top of the inner pot and probably getting into your bags at that point.

So, use less water in the PC. If you have a sterilizer that has a valve instead of a weight, you'll lose a lot less water during the sterilization run so you can start with less than most cookers require. I'd be sure to check the water level before and after a full PC run to see how much is actually lost and make sure to use more than that, but not too much more. Sometimes covering the pot/basket with foil helps too; crimp it tightly around the rim or water can wick up between the foil and the pot.

[BuckarooBanzai]

A little dry verm or coir in the bottom of your grain bags will absorb any extra moisture that gets in.

[sandman]

Drier...Drier man. The bags shouldnt have any water in it, everything should almost look too dry for spawn bags. Just drain better, soak less or simmer less plus the verm addition wouldnt be a bad idea. Really a 24 hour soak is fine no need for the simmer at all with that.

[Scratch]

Originally Posted by Tweexican

I use a 41qt PC that has a separate steel jacket that holds the items you are sterilizing. After every pc cycle, there are about 2 inches of water in the jacket where before there was none... does that help?

I think 2 inches of water in the jacket is causing
your problem. Did this jacket come with your pc?
Why doesn't it have holes in the bottom to allow
steam to circulate and water drips to run off?
Suspect water is dripping on your bags and
pressure is driving that water into your bags
thru the filter patch.


Here is picture of rack that came with my pc.
Notice holes...



I'm not entirely happy with this rack. It's only
about one-half inch high so my projects still sit
in about an inch of boiling water. I now put 3
crumpled balls of alum foil under the rack so my
projects sit up out of the water and entirely in
the steam.


I cover my jars with alum foil to prevent dripping
water from entering them. I still get water on jar
lids, both on top of the foil and under it. How it
gets under is a mystery to me.


I don't have any experience with bags so
someone else can explain that, but, I would
definitely try a different rack setup next time
you do a run with bags.

[sandman]

nonsense, the sterilization basket comes with the high end sterilizer All Americans and is great for bags. You proably need to tighten the thumb bolts on the bottom if yours has those, some have solid bottoms. There shouldnt be more than 1/4" water in the basket after a good run. You may also be placing too muc water in the PC to begin with, the sterilizer model 1941X only needs 1 liter of water in the bottom.

[Tweexican]

Originally Posted by sandman

Drier...Drier man. The bags shouldnt have any water in it, everything should almost look too dry for spawn bags. Just drain better, soak less or simmer less plus the verm addition wouldnt be a bad idea. Really a 24 hour soak is fine no need for the simmer at all with that.

Not simmering my rye seems like im committing a sin...

[Tweexican]

OK, so i tried without simmering. I waited until the grains were completely dry to the touch and I think I'm still having a problem. Heres the thing though.... I'm noticing a lot of moisture in my bag.. but not on the grains. I'm seeing a lot of the moisture accumulating at the top of the bags... is this normal? I smelled the bags I pc'd for 2 hours and they started to smell like wet rot. (i hadn't even innoculated them yet)

[Myc]

I'm not sure about your PC - never used one.
I quit pre-soaking grains awhile back. Not necessary at all In My Experience.

I just rinse well - in the pot I'm going to simmer in.
Keep pouring the water off the top 'til it looks pretty clean ( relatively free of bubbles, scum, debris)
Simmer until the grain 'smashes' easily between the thumb-nail and the flesh of the fore-finger.
Load and PC

If your bags are contaminating so quickly,
I would suspect improper sterilization temperatures
I PC large, autoclaveable spawnbags for 1 hr and 15 min. at 15 PSI (can't achieve 20psi w/ my PC)
Each bag contains 5 cups of cooked grains. (about 3 quart jars' worth)
No problems with contams - even moisture inconsistencies from batch to batch don't seem to be a problem.

After reviewing your method:
Are you impulse sealing the bags prior to pc? I do
How much grain are you putting in them?
I've found that more than 5 cups of grain contams very easily and I had a lot of problems
5 cups seems to be the magic ratio for me.

[sandman]

make sure you are exhausting your PC for a good 6 minutes before putting the weight down, letting the air out.

[Tweexican]

My DAKadan is rigged differently than most AA940's.

Instead of a rocker weight, it has two safety release valves... So even when it's done pcing and it sits for hours completely cooling off, it stays completely pressurized.

I'll make sure to keep one of the valves up until i see steam pouring out and then i'll put it down.

[sandman]

let steam pour out HEAVILY for 6 minutes, any less and your bags wil fail

[TVCasualty]

Originally Posted by Tweexican

So even when it's done pcing and it sits for hours completely cooling off, it stays completely pressurized.

No matter what kind of valve it has, it won't stay pressurized as it cools off. Pressure is directly related to heat; if the valves are of good quality it might form a vacuum as it cools but it's not possible to maintain steam pressure in a PC if it's completely cooled off.

[sandman]

Yea its a vacuum that is formed... not positive pressure but "negative". All sterilizer models do this because the valves and over-pressure plugs are air tight when in the closed position. Same thing that happens to a jar when it has a solid lid and you PC it, it forms a vacuum and you cant get it off without relieving the pressure, ala airport.

I still think you are failing due one of the following reasons:

1) Due to improper "exhausting" of the cooker before putting the valve down to build pressure. The bags trap air inside which must be replaced with steam to achieve the actual 250deg temp of 15psi. After you turn the heat on you need to wait to see steam escaping from the vent pipe, and THEN set a timer for 8 minutes. When the timer goes off, then you can close the valve on the sterilizer to start building pressure.

2) Just plain old too much material in your bags. I just noticed you said you fill them 3/5 full. How close to the filter patch is the top of the substrate in the bag, you should have 3-4" at least? Sounds like 3/5 full is excessive. I use more like 30% of the the bag, about 8 to 10 cups of substrate. This is PLENTY to spawn the biggest monotub you could possibly do, or several baking tins or whatever you may want to spawn.

3) Too much water in your cooker. Well I know for a fact that your using too much water because you said the basket has 2" of water in it after the cycle. You dont even need 2" of water in the cooker to start with at all. You should use exactly 1 liter of water for a 941 with toggle valves, 1941X, DAK or ACLAB sterilizer. No more. You should have no more than 1/4" water if any at all in the basket when its done. You will not lose ANY water with the sterilizer models after you close the valve. So you just need enough water to exhaust the cooker of air for the 6-8 minutes and fill the cooker up with steam while still leaving just a little in the bottom to keep running.

I saw your post on that other place, but I dont post there. I don't really recall telling you to add dry verm I think that was probably someone else, unless I said it in chat or something. Thats fine but totally unecesary when preparing spawn bags correctly, especially 2 cups of dry verm per lb of rye. I never add verm to my bags at all. All I add to them is love.

For gods sake if you have a flowhood then cool the entire pc off in front of it, don't carry it to the pc after its cool.

Presealable bags have a 5.0 micron filter patch. "Regular" bags that aren't supposed to be presealable have a 0.5 micron filter. I dont use the preseable bags for spawn if I can avoid it personally, sometimes they contam on me when I mix the bag up, which I chalk up to the weak filter.

Anyways...tried to help you. All I use are spawn bags and I have 95%+ success. Im using cracked corn for my spawn these days. That shit is beautiful.