Getting Ready to Jar up and PC...have a ? or so

[Shroobie]

Well I've had my WBS out drying for 2 days now, but when I get a handful and dump it there's still grains on my fingers (I'd say about 15-30 altogether).
So I'm guessing it's still to wet, but I've seen a tek or two where people just drain for a couple hours then jar up. Some seem to still clump up also.

So is it safe to jar up? And do I fill the entire pint with WBS?
That brings me to my other question.
I've seen where people add water to their Rye grain jars. Why would you do that after just rinsing and draining? Is that just with Rye grains? How much water would be needed for pints?

Also do I need Tyvek and microspore tape? Or just one or the other?
I have both just in case. I'd be using Tyvek envelopes and/or Transpore (same thing right?...I hope) tape.

My wife is scared as hell with the PC. She's like "those things blow up".
lol. So that does sit in the back of my mind. And I did buy a used one off of ebay. Guess we'll see.

[MLBjammer]

You can add a spoon or two of dry vermiculite in the bottom of the jars, which will help soak up excess moisture. Leave enough room at the top of the jar so that you can shake it.

I wouldn't add any more water--what's in the seeds is plenty.

You need some sort of filtered air exchange--two layers of tyvek would work well.

As long as the valves and seal are good on your PC, it won't blow up. My wife is even more afraid of the PC, lol.

[TastyBeverage]

Is this your first grow? If so and you are starting off with whole grains you will likely have a harder time of it. We always recommend first time growers start off with the PF Tek, as there are less steps to the process and thus less chances to contaminate. Since you've already started with the WBS though, lets forge ahead and hopefully get you growing!

First off, pint jars are pretty small for doing whole grain. The jars will colonize faster, but since grain does better if you shake it during colonization, you'll have to leave some empty space in there. Thus, the amount of grain you'll get out of each jar is small, and a lot of trouble for having to PC a whole batch. Better to use half quarts or quarts if you have them-- i use recycled pasta sauce jars.

If your tyvek envelopes are from the post office, i would say use the micropore tape instead. The PO tyvek is not pure tyvek and the air flow is lousy. I prefer polyfil, but to each their own.

If your WBS has been out draining for a couple of days, you definitely want to get them jarred and PC'd today or they will start to sprout. Once they sprout, they are much more likely to contam in the jar. Don't worry about adding water to the jar, that is an alternate method of hydrating the grains without soaking them, which you already did.

[pizark2]

my old pc rattles and hisses like crazy,the old lady doesn't go in the kitchen when it's on,lol

if you use tape,get the better quality tape as the cheap stuff can come off when pc,even with tinfoil cap.I thought I saved $1 getting the cheap store brand and ended up having to redo several jars

gl on your project

[Shroobie]

Yeah I read all up on PF teks, but read up on grains and it was just more steps and not much harder with more of a reward. So I figured what the heck. I like doing things the hard way too, it's more fun .
It is USPS envelopes.
You say use quart or half quart jars. That's what I did, I used half quart, which is a pint.

I put a spoonful of verm. on bottom of jars, MLB. And used 2 layers of Tyvek.
I have Nexcare 3M transpore tape, not sure if that's the cheap kind.
So is it a bad idea to use 2 layers of the USPS Tyvek if that's not true Tyvek?

Also I don't have jar lids to place on the bottom of the PC, I heard using a folded up towel would work.
I was able to fill up 8 pint jars about 3/4 full.
If that's not enough to fill my 10gal Tub I do have 2 Roaster pans I could use.
Is there a safe place to upload pictures to to post here?

[NineInchNails]

If you don't have lids then you can find one of these at Ace Hardware (in the kitchen section) or maybe at Walmart. I wouldn't use a towel personally. You would be better off buying the proper spacer eventually, but the one listed below only costs like $2-$3.


I used to use 2 layers of tyvek, but now I just use one. 2 worked fine, but I personally think that using 1 layer might help MYC to grow faster (better air exchange perhaps).

[TastyBeverage]

I was thinking of half pints, sorry. Still drinking my morning coffee.

PO tyvek has a small amount of organic fiber in it so it is more likely to contam. You can order kite tyvek off of the internet which is 100%, but it's not exactly cheap and with your WBS already sitting around for 2 days you can't wait. If you're set on using the PO tyvek, you might as well give it a shot and keep your fingers crossed.

Yes, you can use a towel in the PC, but it will turn brown and smell funky afterwards so choose a designated 'PC towel'.

You should upload pics directly to Topia. When you post, there will be a Manage Attachments section under the main text window. Pics have to be below 1.9 mb i believe.

[Shroobie]

Thank you much.
Yeah I have to use a towel (for now). Will get a spacer sometime or just more jar lids so I can just use Poly or make some decent lids.
Is it possible to put too much water in PC?
My manual tells me how much to put in, but I'm figuring the towel is going to absorb alot of that, so I wasn't sure if I should put more than what it says.
Do I PC for only an hour since I have a 15psi PC?


*EDIT* I put pictures of how much I put in jars, jars with double Tyvek, and placed in PC.
I soaked the towel and then put the jars on top. My manual says for 7 pint jars to use 1 1/2 qts of water. So I guess I'll just add that on top of the soaked towel and hope for the best.

With the Tyvek. I inoculate right through the Tyvek and it'll be ok? The hole from the needle won't hurt?

THANK YOU MUCH to those who have answered my questions.
I swear I've read alot on this. There's just some things I don't understand, or get mixed up cause I've read so much, or just little things I never saw discussed.

[threesixty]

Originally Posted by Shroobie

Thank you much.
Yeah I have to use a towel (for now). Will get a spacer sometime or just more jar lids so I can just use Poly or make some decent lids.
Is it possible to put too much water in PC?
My manual tells me how much to put in, but I'm figuring the towel is going to absorb alot of that, so I wasn't sure if I should put more than what it says.
Do I PC for only an hour since I have a 15psi PC?


*EDIT* I put pictures of how much I put in jars, jars with double Tyvek, and placed in PC.
I soaked the towel and then put the jars on top. My manual says for 7 pint jars to use 1 1/2 qts of water. So I guess I'll just add that on top of the soaked towel and hope for the best.

With the Tyvek. I inoculate right through the Tyvek and it'll be ok? The hole from the needle won't hurt?

THANK YOU MUCH to those who have answered my questions.
I swear I've read alot on this. There's just some things I don't understand, or get mixed up cause I've read so much, or just little things I never saw discussed.

Yeah the trick to using the towel is to make sure to fully wet it before you put it in the PC, then add your water in on top of that.

[threesixty]

Originally Posted by Shroobie

With the Tyvek. I inoculate right through the Tyvek and it'll be ok? The hole from the needle won't hurt?

Hey Shroobie, do you just have the lid ring and tyvek only? If that's the case there may be some concern with losing too much moisture, you may want to tape up a large portion of that tyvek to keep the grain from drying out during colonization. Check out Fahts lids here:

http://forums.mycotopia.net/jars-bag...g-patches.html (Fahts self-healing lids and bag patches)

Don't worry about the silicone at this point, you can just tape over your injection site for now and that should keep you safe.

[weiliicoyote]

I highly suggest Lazlo's WBS tek - http://forums.mycotopia.net/wild-bir...technique.html (Super fast and effective wbs/grain technique.)
But you add boiling water to the pot, and only soak for 1 hour.

This is the only WBS prep tek I have ever used and it gives me perfect moisture content, and takes about 1.5 hours from dry wbs to ready to PC

[Shroobie]

Well it's on PC'ing now. Put it on about 5-7 mins. ago.
How long does it take to initially start boiling/steaming?
I don't spend alot of time in the kitchen.
Getting quite excited. Months of planning (not too well apparently) finally coming together.

Yeah I figured I'd better soak the shit outta that towel. I put in what the manual suggests.


*EDIT*
Cool thanks for advice guys. I'm going to look into that WBS tek and Lids. I'm just doing this the first time with limited funds and ended up getting jars awhile ago and just popped 4 holes in each cause that's what I saw on the first few teks I saw.

And no I have the lid with 4 holes in it under the 2 layers of Tyvek.

[threesixty]

Originally Posted by Shroobie

And no I have the lid with 4 holes in it under the 2 layers of Tyvek.

Ah cool, yeah you should be good then, just tape em up after you stab em. With birdseed you can get away with innoculating through just one hole. After you tape it up swirl the seed around to spread the spores throughout the jar.

So the tyvek is on top? Did you mark the tyvek so you know where the holes are underneath?

[Shroobie]

There's alot of water coming out of the edges and around a safty valve.
Is that bad?
The gauge or weight haven't moved. But I could blow through where the weight was so I know it's not blocked.
Should I be worried?

*EDIT* The gauge has moved alittle so I added the other weights for 15psi, but there is a little water coming out from under weight(s).

[threesixty]

Originally Posted by weiliicoyote

I highly suggest Lazlo's WBS tek - http://forums.mycotopia.net/wild-bir...technique.html (Super fast and effective wbs/grain technique.)
But you add boiling water to the pot, and only soak for 1 hour.

This is the only WBS prep tek I have ever used and it gives me perfect moisture content, and takes about 1.5 hours from dry wbs to ready to PC

I'll totally cosign that point! Lazlo's is the first and only WBS tek I've ever used and it's worked wonders for me.

[Shroobie]

Cool thanks. I bookmarked it for next time.
The gauge is going up slowly but surely, hopefully it's all good.
Going to go keep an eye on it now.
Just hope it doesn't blow up in my face

[threesixty]

Originally Posted by Shroobie

There's alot of water coming out of the edges and around a safty valve.
Is that bad?
The gauge or weight haven't moved. But I could blow through where the weight was so I know it's not blocked.
Should I be worried?

*EDIT* The gauge has moved alittle so I added the other weights for 15psi, but there is a little water coming out from under weight(s).

Man I'm not sure on that one Shroobie, could just be excess condensation seeping out as the pressure is building in there.

In the future if you boil your water for your PC in a seperate pot first, then dump it in the PC and seal it up - the PC will get up to pressure much quicker.

[Shroobie]

Cool. Yeah I'll probably do that next time.
The Safety valve on PC has popped up but steam is still coming out from under weights and gauge is still going up. Should I be worried or does that just happen?
Thanks

[threesixty]

Originally Posted by Shroobie

Cool. Yeah I'll probably do that next time.
The Safety valve on PC has popped up but steam is still coming out from under weights and gauge is still going up. Should I be worried or does that just happen?
Thanks

EDIT: I think misread that. Yeah steam coming out from under the weight is normal, you should be cool.

[Shroobie]

Cool.
But for some reason it was stuck at 11.5 psi then I just then to check and it was about 10.5psi. What's up with that? lol, man this is getting me worried.
Does that mean all the water has evaporated? Should I turn up stove? lol. My wife won't even go downstairs

*EDIT*
Just went to look again. Now the gauge say alittle under 10psi. Makes me wonder if all the water already evaporated and if I should just turn it off now before I cook something.

[threesixty]

Originally Posted by Shroobie

Cool. Yeah I'll probably do that next time.
The Safety valve on PC has popped up but steam is still coming out from under weights and gauge is still going up. Should I be worried or does that just happen?
Thanks

Oh and when you get up to 15psi you can bring the heat on your stove down. I run mine on high to get pressure built and bring it down to just below medium after I hit 15. On my stove that's all it takes to maintain a steady pressure, you just have to find the sweet spot.

[Shroobie]

I can't even reach 15 psi. I edited my above post.

[TastyBeverage]

It should be on high heat till your reach 15 psi and the rocker starts going at a steady rhythm. Then turn it down to lowish medium to keep the pressure steady. Start marking your time from when it reaches pressure, not from when you turned the stove on.

Good luck!

EDIT: Some PCs will only pressurize to 12 psi. Check your manual. If it will only go to 12, just PC for longer and keep an eye on it. It will sound differently when it gets low or runs out of water.

[threesixty]

Originally Posted by Shroobie

Cool.
But for some reason it was stuck at 11.5 psi then I just then to check and it was about 10.5psi. What's up with that? lol, man this is getting me worried.
Does that mean all the water has evaporated? Should I turn up stove? lol. My wife won't even go downstairs

*EDIT*
Just went to look again. Now the gauge say alittle under 10psi. Makes me wonder if all the water already evaporated and if I should just turn it off now before I cook something.

Eh, wierd. What've you got the heat on the stove set to? I doubt you'd have lost that much water by now. Even after I've run my big ahss PC for 2 hours when I pop the top there's still plenty water left.

[Shroobie]

K...I have it almost on high but not full.
I went and just tapped the weight and now it seems it's not letting out so much pressure. Should I not have done that?
I'll go turn up flame.


*EDIT*
I went and turned up the heat, but I also noticed the pressure rising again. so maybe the weight was just on there crooked..?
Just worry some being the first time using one and my wife filling my head with PC's blowing up stories.

[threesixty]

Originally Posted by Shroobie

I went and just tapped the weight and now it seems it's not letting out so much pressure. Should I not have done that?

I wouldnt worry about that, ideally the weight should be calibrated to start steadily releasing steam when you hit 15psi. Until then it may not move at all.

[Shroobie]

Ahhh...Cool.
Yeah it's up to 12.5 psi now with flame on high. Going to go keep an eye on it.

P.S. I think I smell the towel burning

[threesixty]

Cool sounds like you're cooking now. Remember what Bev said too, start your timer on the WBS once the PC hits 15.

[Shroobie]

Yeah. It's having a hard time hitting 15. It's stuck at about 14.5 and alot of steam is coming out from under weight, but it's not moving. The whole PC is shaking though. lol.
Hope that's normal. That's even on highest setting I have.

*EDIT*
Yeah now it's at 14 psi...lmao. Ahh man doesn't seem like it would be that difficult to do.

[threesixty]

Originally Posted by Shroobie

Yeah. It's having a hard time hitting 15. It's stuck at about 14.5 and alot of steam is coming out from under weight, but it's not moving. The whole PC is shaking though. lol.
Hope that's normal. That's even on highest setting I have.

*EDIT*
Yeah now it's at 14 psi...lmao. Ahh man doesn't seem like it would be that difficult to do.

14 will still be fine, maybe just run them for a tad bit longer. That 1psi isn't going to make or break the process.

[Shroobie]

Well it's a sliver away from 15psi now. Moving up, slowly but surely.
But the Weight isn't even moving a tad.

*EDIT yet again*
Well I came up here to type that went down and checked and now it's back at 14...lmao..ahh was a learning experience.

[threesixty]

Heh, what'd you do to piss that pressure cooker off man? LOL

[Shroobie]

lmao...I have no idea.
It was used off of ebay. It was kinda cheap so I snatched it up.
Smelled like it was just sitting around for years. I cleaned up the inside with some steel wool.
Well it's up to 15 psi now. Weight still isn't moving, but gauge says 15 psi. So I don't know maybe the gauge is wrong.
I still have it on high heat and it hasn't gone past 15 psi in about 10 mins.

*EDIT* this is unreal.
I ran up here to post. Went back downstairs. Guess what? The pressure was back at 14 psi?....lmao
It's crazy as hell.

And..No I didn't eveh think of marking the holes. lol. Hopefully I'll beable to see where they are from the bottom.

[Shroobie]

Well just looked and the pressure was down to 13. Is that a sign of little water left; after staying at a fairly steady 15 then all of a sudden going down to 13?
It was at 14 PSI an hour ago. so maybe I'll just let it go another 15 mins then turn it off.

*EDIT* Well I just turned it off. It smelled like the towel was really burning and it was down alittle under 10psi.
I can only hope that was long enough.

[MrZeus]

Originally Posted by Shroobie

There's alot of water coming out of the edges and around a safty valve.
Is that bad?
The gauge or weight haven't moved. But I could blow through where the weight was so I know it's not blocked.
Should I be worried?

*EDIT* The gauge has moved alittle so I added the other weights for 15psi, but there is a little water coming out from under weight(s).

If your PC wasn't new, you may need to flip the lid gasket over and put a thin layer of veg oil on it before you use it again. Mine had been sitting unused since around 1960 or so...Was still brand new in the box, with all accessories! I noticed a few runs back where a bit of steam was leaking from the main seal, and at first from the safety plug. Before I used it again, I read the 1960 instruction book that said if that happens to flip the seal over...very lightly lube it all over with veg. oil and mine stopped leaking completely and now come to pressure much faster.

[threesixty]

Wierd, maybe you did burn off more water than expected while trying to get it up to 15psi. How long were they going for?

Next time try the pre-boiling the water trick and I think you'll have less issues.

[s0mer4ndom1diot]

woah be careful man. actually... to be on the safe side i would just go turn it off and wait for it to cool down then throw it away. i can maintain 15psi on my stove 3/4 the way from low to med. so most likely your pc is going to run out of water and nothing good is going to happen. how long has it been running now? damn dude... your thread is scaring the shit out of me...

[threesixty]

Originally Posted by MrZeus

If your PC wasn't new, you may need to flip the lid gasket over and put a thin layer of veg oil on it before you use it again. Mine had been sitting unused since around 1960 or so...Was still brand new in the box, with all accessories! I noticed a few runs back where a bit of steam was leaking from the main seal, and at first from the safety plug. Before I used it again, I read the 1960 instruction book that said if that happens to flip the seal over...very lightly lube it all over with veg. oil and mine stopped leaking completely and now come to pressure much faster.

Ah good call Zeus.

[trips6928]

You said your grain has been drying for 2 days? I read somewhere in these forums that letting them dry for 24 hours alows contams time do germinate (which you want), but longer than that gives them time to drop more spores which are harder to kill even with a PC run.

Hope you dont have a problem, and maybe next time dry them off with a towel after rinsing them then let em dry for around 24 hours. Hope this helps.

Good luck, sendin strong vibes your way.

[Shroobie]

I started it at about 12:45 I believe. It hit 14psi at 1:30 then flucuated between 14-15 psi till 2:30 and that's when I turned it cause the psi was down to 10 and it smelled funny.
I had a soaked towel in there and added 1 1/2 qts water, which made the water come up to the middle of the jars.
How long till safe to open PC and check towel and jars?
So you recommend just dumping them all and starting over?
I'll look into manual and see what it says. I'll also put some veg oil around the gasket next time too.
*Edit* yeah I let them dry for 2 days. That only cause quite a bit stuck to my hand even after 30 hrs of setting out to dry. Here's a picture. I was told that only a few should stick to hand.

[threesixty]

Originally Posted by Shroobie

I started it at about 12:45 I believe. It hit 14psi at 1:30 then flucuated between 14-15 psi till 2:30 and that's when I turned it cause the psi was down to 10 and it smelled funny.
I had a soaked towel in there and added 1 1/2 qts water, which made the water come up to the middle of the jars.
How long till safe to open PC and check towel and jars?
So you recommend just dumping them all and starting over?
I'll look into manual and see what it says. I'll also put some veg oil around the gasket next time too.
*Edit* yeah I let them dry for 2 days. That only cause quite a bit stuck to my hand even after 30 hrs of setting out to dry. Here's a picture. I was told that only a few should stick to hand.

Yeah water halfway up the jars should've been plenty. Sounds like that aged gasket may be the culprit with the pressure issues like Zeus said.

Dumping them really depends on how much spore solution you have available. If you've only got one syringe to start with I'd say dump em and start a new batch. If you've got some to spare then I'd least shoot up a couple jars, you may get lucky and have no probs.

[Shroobie]

I'll take a picture of the gasket when it's cool. It looked to be in good shape. I washed it and rinsed it off, but it was obviously leaking pressure somewhere.

*EDIT* well I went and opened it.
There's no water in it. Towel still looked wet and wasn't brown (atleast on the top).
Can I take jars out now or should I just wait?

[threesixty]

Since you've already popped the top on the PC you can remove the jars, just be careful b/c they're likely still mucho caliente. It's recommended to let the jars fully cool inside the PC, this is because as they cool they'll suck in the air around them. So if they're sitting in the open they'll be pulling in dirty air. I've never had any problems pulling bags or jars out early but it's definitely a possibilty, just FYI.

[Shroobie]

Ahhh I see. Well crap.
Well I put the top right back on if that means anything. lol.

[threesixty]

Heh, no worries man I think you'll be ok. Like I said, even knowing that lil info I still pull my stuff out warm and have a very low contam rate.

Give that Lazlo WBS tek a shot next time around brother, you'll have a much quicker turnaround not having to wait a couple days for the grain to dry.

[BuckarooBanzai]

Sounds like your PC has some problems, man.

At the very least, it sounds like it needs a new seal.

You shouldn't have any water leakage out the top.

[Shroobie]

Well that sucks. Cause everything looked to be in good shape.
It only leaked for a few mins. out of the safety valve. Leaked out the sides for a little while, not the whole time, but I read that was normal.
We tried to get it tested, but the place that does that in our city (free I think) already did their tests in August.
And a drop of water would drip out from under the weights on occasion.

Wouldn't be able to tell if it's ok by just looking at it could you?

[TVCasualty]

Cooking all the water out of a PC is not good at all. It's why I wouldn't buy a used one no matter how many other people say they did and it worked great. The recommendation is to discard a cooker that's been run dry since the metal may have been weakened. The towel not being totally dry means you turned off the heat right on the cusp of it going totally dry so it might be fine (but it's a close call). The other threat to a PC is being dropped, and it can be impossible to tell from a casual inspection that there's a hairline crack in it or something (the other reason I don't buy used cookers).

Still, modern cookers incorporate much better safety features than the early types that did blow up and kill people. The new ones will pop the relief valve long before the vessel ruptures; that will scare the shit out of you and might coat your ceiling with cooked bird seed, but it won't fill your kitchen with shrapnel. I'm not sure how dangerous a crack is on a PC with a relief valve, but it's certainly not ideal.

From your description of the large amount of steam escaping from the valve during the run I got the impression the valve may have been left open the whole time, or popped open. If so, the pressure was way too high.

This leads me to another important point: Gauges on pressure cookers are only to be used as general indicators of whether the pressure is rising or falling. They should not be trusted to measure the pressure accurately.

One of mine reads "5 psi" when it's cold, one reads 12 psi when it's really at 15. I know it's really at 15 because on an All American cooker the weight jiggles precisely at 15 psi. If the 15 psi weight on yours was shaking, it was at 15 psi. If the valve popped open and lots of steam shot out, it was closer to 20 psi.

A good way to justify buying a decent cooker (like the AA 921) is that you can save time and use less energy cooking actual meals and do canning as well, so it's a very handy tool in the kitchen that saves you more money the more you use it (it'll pay for itself, in other words).

[Shroobie]

Well the weight didn't jiggle at all, although the gauge said 15psi. The Safety valve popped up at about 10psi. There was still steam coming out when I shut it off, but since the pressure dropped to 10psi and I could smell the towel more it seemed like it was out of water.
Yeah I'll probably just throw out that WBS. The aluminum foil on some of the jars that were touching the sides turned black. So figured that can't be good. Bottom of the towel was a little brown.
Yeah sucks I bought a used one, but the new one I could afford would only fit 4 pint jars.
Ahhhh what a learning experience this is. lol.
So should I try to use this PC again?
I'll get a rack or some jar lids if I'm able to use it again. Won't do the towel deal next time.

[TastyBeverage]

Can you post some pics of the PC? They vary greatly in the details, and i've retired one that had a temperamental release valve on it. It would pop open unless it was turned in the correct direction. Some PCs have a rubber gasket on the release valve also, maybe it's corroded or missing?