Silicone Problem

[ishkaboo]

I used regular silicone sealant from lowe's for my LC lid as a self sealing injection port, but it doesn't seem to self seal as well as it should.

I did my regular sterilizing procedure of wiping the needle with alcohol and then flame sterilizing it and after puncturing it a few times and sucking the LC up into the syringes, there was a noticeable hole in the silicon that doesn't heal.


Does that RTV sealant not do this? If so, doesn't autozone carry it?

[(neo)Figment]

How large are you making your blobs. I use regular silicone from wally mart and have never had this prob. Only problem I have is with the plastic lids....the silicone likes to come up after a while.

[ishkaboo]

Large, as in I make little circles around the hole in the lid until I have a blob that resembles a mountain or volcano.


Maybe the fact that I am flame sterilizing right before sticking it through is somehow melting the silicone? Maybe the high temp version won't do this...


And about the plastic lids... couldn't scoring (making small scratches) around where the silicone will go help it hang on better?

[PsyBearknot]

Originally Posted by ishkaboo

Does that RTV sealant not do this? If so, doesn't autozone carry it?

Ive had the same problem with the Black RTV....how thick do you have to make it?

I have NEVER had any hold to the plastic lids. Scratched, gouged what ever I gave up on the ports on the plastic lids

[ishkaboo]

Originally Posted by PsyBearknot

Ive had the same problem with the Black RTV....how thick do you have to make it?

I have NEVER had any hold to the plastic lids. Scratched, gouged what ever I gave up on the ports on the plastic lids

That sucks I just got some plastic ones for grain


What do you use now? Micropore tape and just put a new piece over the hole you make with the syringe?

[(neo)Figment]

awesome avatar.

Is the silicone melting? If I don't squirt a lil thro the needle before I shoot right after flame sterilizing it kinda melts a little. If I am flaming the airport I just wait about 30 seconds.

I have to redo my plastic lids often. Its rather shitty. I thought plastic was gonna be the way to go and bought up a bunch a couple years ago.

[ishkaboo]

Originally Posted by (neo)Figment

awesome avatar.

Is the silicone melting? If I don't squirt a lil thro the needle before I shoot right after flame sterilizing it kinda melts a little. If I am flaming the airport I just wait about 30 seconds.

I have to redo my plastic lids often. Its rather shitty. I thought plastic was gonna be the way to go and bought up a bunch a couple years ago.

Thanks about the avatar.

This time I was actually sucking LC into the syringe so I couldn't squirt anything out, but I did notice it melting the silicone. I think that is what caused the perma-hole in the port.

I guess I should just let it cool longer than just a few seconds next time.


As far as the plastic lid thing goes... there has to be something that we can out down to make the silicone stick better... maybe something like some double stick tape or something with some texture that will stick there and keep hold of the blob... brainstorming here.

[TheFreak]

after you flame put in napkin that is soaked in 70% alcohol. wipe down the silicone and stab needle through quickly. the alcohol will cool off your needle fast.

[Phx]

Well when I did my lc's i did a cool down with a iso soaked paper towel( dunk needle in iso, then flame sterilized and cool down with paper towel). I bet the problem is with the hot needle and not the silicone.

I hope this helped.

[ishkaboo]

Yeah, I was thinking that might work as well. I will definitely do that in the future to the needle is cool. Don't wanna have this happen again cause I gotta scrape that goop off and its just a pain in the ass.

after you flame put in napkin that is soaked in 70% alcohol.

You should use 90%, most recommend it over 70 b/c it is stronger ie. better at killin' the baddies, although I am not sure how much of a difference it actually makes anyway.

[Phx]

Originally Posted by ishkaboo

You should use 90%, most recommend it over 70 b/c it is stronger ie.

Actually while 90% is stronger it is not recomended because it evaps quicker not allowing the alc to soak into the baddies well enough. Leaving some of them behind to contam on you.

But hey just my .02

[ishkaboo]

Originally Posted by Phx

Actually while 90% is stronger it is not recomended because it evaps quicker not allowing the alc to soak into the baddies well enough. Leaving some of them behind to contam on you.

But hey just my .02

Makes sense, I guess there are mixed opinions on the matter. I read that 90% was better here at topia somewhere so I have been using that type, although I do notice that it evaps very quickly.

Probably not a great difference though.



As far as putting something down on the plastic lid injection port before silicone sealing the port... any ideas on some sort of maybe rubber, textured sticky material? I can picture stuff the sticky rubber that comes on some thermometers to stick to the side of the terrarium, or the little pads that come on the bottom of some electronics (like on my xbox 360, the footing). Maybe something like that would help the silicone stick better and not come off.

Any thoughts on if this would work or not?

[toadstooll]

Have always mixed 90% and 70% half and half, think I remember it comes out to be about 88% or so.

[ishkaboo]

Originally Posted by toadstooll

Have always mixed 90% and 70% half and half, think I remember it comes out to be about 88% or so.

lol 2% less than 90%? What's the point?

[MLBjammer]

Originally Posted by ishkaboo

Makes sense, I guess there are mixed opinions on the matter. I read that 90% was better here at topia somewhere so I have been using that type, although I do notice that it evaps very quickly.

Probably not a great difference though.



As far as putting something down on the plastic lid injection port before silicone sealing the port... any ideas on some sort of maybe rubber, textured sticky material? I can picture stuff the sticky rubber that comes on some thermometers to stick to the side of the terrarium, or the little pads that come on the bottom of some electronics (like on my xbox 360, the footing). Maybe something like that would help the silicone stick better and not come off.

Any thoughts on if this would work or not?

Rough up the surface a little bit before you apply the silicone. Sometimes the regular silicone has a pretty short shelf life once opened.

[(neo)Figment]

Roughing up only slightly delays the inevitable for me. I hit them with some sand paper and then silicone. I get about 3 runs out of them before I no longer feel comfortable using them. I been thinking of making blobs of them and kinds jamming them into the hole kinda like ployfill but with silicone.

[PsyBearknot]

Polyfill is my friend for plastic lids

[PsyBearknot]

Could you stick a piece of micropore or surgical tape on the top of the hole
then put a blob on the under side hole making sure it gets good and soaked into the pores of the tape then put the blob on the top side ? ?

I remember seeing something like this in the vaults, I think it was fhatster (sp) making a port on a bag or something of the like that could not be roughed up.

[(neo)Figment]

I think this may have some merit. When I use micropore tape on plastic lids it really really takes a hold.

Originally Posted by PsyBearknot

Could you stick a piece of micropore or surgical tape on the top of the hole
then put a blob on the under side hole making sure it gets good and soaked into the pores of the tape then put the blob on the top side ? ?

I remember seeing something like this in the vaults, I think it was fhatster (sp) making a port on a bag or something of the like that could not be roughed up.

[MLBjammer]

Originally Posted by (neo)Figment

Roughing up only slightly delays the inevitable for me. I hit them with some sand paper and then silicone. I get about 3 runs out of them before I no longer feel comfortable using them. I been thinking of making blobs of them and kinds jamming them into the hole kinda like ployfill but with silicone.

Three times is pretty good. I only use ported lids a couple times these days.

I hope you are doing well, Neo.

[TVCasualty]

Make a huge blob of silicone on both sides of the hole if you aren't already; that way it holds itself to the lid better/longer.

Cooling the needle w/ alc. soaked towel is definitely the way to go. Silicone can't take over ~450 degrees F.

70% isopropyl alcohol is more effective at killing microorganisms than 90% since the water content is required for alcohol to kill a cell (I was taught in microbiology class something about osmosis being the mechanism by which alcohol kills stuff but forget the specifics).

[ishkaboo]

Thanks for the detailed explanation about the alcohol. I will now start using 70% in the future.


Since I have brand new plastic lids and filter disks to put together, I am going to give the micropore idea a try. Hopefully the silicone will stick to it better because of the pores as was said above.

[ishkaboo]

So, how in the hell are people fastening these synthetic filter disks to the bottom of the lids then?

http://sporeworks.com/store/product....5&cat=0&page=1

Should I put micropore around the bottom side of the hole and put the silicone on that first and then put the filter disk down?

[TVCasualty]

Originally Posted by ishkaboo

So, how in the hell are people fastening these synthetic filter disks to the bottom of the lids then?

I don't know, I've never tried to fasten them to anything. I use the disks too, and I just went ahead and bought the plastic lids that they're designed to be used with. Drill a 3/8" (~1 cm) diameter hole in the plastic lid and fit the disk up into the lid before putting it on a jar.

I think using the plastic lids with the filter disks is the way to go since they're re-usable indefinitely, simple to clean, and don't rust.

[ishkaboo]

Originally Posted by TVCasualty

I don't know, I've never tried to fasten them to anything. I use the disks too, and I just went ahead and bought the plastic lids that they're designed to be used with. Drill a 3/8" (~1 cm) diameter hole in the plastic lid and fit the disk up into the lid before putting it on a jar.

I think using the plastic lids with the filter disks is the way to go since they're re-usable indefinitely, simple to clean, and don't rust.

Oh. I bought those lids from sporeworks too. http://sporeworks.com/store/product....4&cat=0&page=1


I didn't know you were supposed to simply stick it up in the hole since the description is "a synthetic filter disk placed underneath to allow contaminate free gaseous air exchange." Kinda ambiguous.


The filter disk doesn't like fall out or anything when vigorously shaking grains?

[TVCasualty]

Originally Posted by ishkaboo

Oh. I bought those lids from sporeworks too. http://sporeworks.com/store/product.php?productid=16254&cat=0&page=1


I didn't know you were supposed to simply stick it up in the hole since the description is "a synthetic filter disk placed underneath to allow contaminate free gaseous air exchange." Kinda ambiguous.


The filter disk doesn't like fall out or anything when vigorously shaking grains?

Naw, they're the same diameter as the rim of the jar and the lid you tighten down on it, so it's very firmly stuck in place when you screw on the lid. It's actually hard to get the disk out of the lid when it's time to clean them; you need to poke the disk out with a small dowel or something (I use the eraser end of a pencil). I lightly scrub any crap off the disks with a kitchen scrubber pad then I soak them in a 10-20% bleach solution for a half hour or so. After that treatment they look good as new, and you can either dry them and store them for next time or put them right on the next jar going into the PC.

One issue with plastic lids that comes up sometimes is that they won't hold on to the jar well. I notice it especially when I shake them right after PC'ing when they're still really hot; sometimes a lid will pop right off or I'll screw it on too tight and it'll pop off that way, but almost all of the jars that happens to are still fine to use. So, pay close attention to how well the lids are secured on the jar when you pick them up or shake them.

One more thing: You should double-check that those lids are rated for pressure cooking as some are not. I bought my lids from fungi perfecti as they're definitely rated for high temps, and I'd guess the lids you linked are fine (but I'd still ask to make sure before spending $$).

[PsyBearknot]

Originally Posted by TVCasualty

One issue with plastic lids that comes up sometimes is that they won't hold on to the jar well. I notice it especially when I shake them right after PC'ing when they're still really hot; sometimes a lid will pop right off or I'll screw it on too tight and it'll pop off that way, but almost all of the jars that happens to are still fine to use. So, pay close attention to how well the lids are secured on the jar when you pick them up or shake them.

One more thing: You should double-check that those lids are rated for pressure cooking as some are not. I bought my lids from fungi perfecti as they're definitely rated for high temps, and I'd guess the lids you linked are fine (but I'd still ask to make sure before spending $$).

I have this same problem with the Ball Canning plastic lids. After I take them out of the PC I let them cool slightly then lightly tighten them with the foil on and then shake. The Ball plastic lids state they are NOT for processing but read in the archives/vaults that many people have used them for this process. I was impatient picked some up instead of ordering. Now after 6 or 7 times in the PC I have 4 pf jars that the lids will not come off. I have tried to unscrew and thought that I might be able to tighten them too tight so they popped off the threads on the rim of the jar but no luck. Let the jars go invitro and then broke the jars open.

SO with the filter disc is the silicone port even needed at this point.
Cant you just use one of the holes in the lid to noc the jar up?
Flame needle, cool with iso swab a poke through and noc up?

I have been curious about this I saw on Fungi Perfecti's web site might be easier then the silicone ports

"Rubber Latex Sheeting
This latex allows penetration by a needle and closes upon retrieval. It is recommended for those designing containers for growing spawn inoculated via the syringe/liquid inoculation method. Sheets measure 12 x 12 inches."

[ishkaboo]

I ended up making my lids last night and figured out that the filter disks fit right in there. I was under the impression I had to cut them up at first. I put some medical tape down before siliconing so we will see if this works for keeping it there longer than a few runs.


They are the ball ones from sporeworks so hopefully they don't suck horribly. I mean they say "not for processing" but what the hell would sporeworks be doing selling plastic lids for spawn jars that aren't for high temps when you obviously sterilize spawn in the PC?


What is a better brand to use in the future? I couldn't find any over at fungi perfecti when I searched "plastic lid".

[TVCasualty]

Originally Posted by ishkaboo

What is a better brand to use in the future? I couldn't find any over at fungi perfecti when I searched "plastic lid".

Search "70mm Autoclavable Plastic Lids" at the FP website and they'll come up.

I've been searching for the type of lids FP sells for years, but so far they're still the only company I know of that sells that particular type. I bought a bunch of them about ten years ago and they all still work like new. They also have wide-mouth lids and filter disks available.

Originally Posted by PsyBearknot

SO with the filter disc is the silicone port even needed at this point.
Cant you just use one of the holes in the lid to noc the jar up?
Flame needle, cool with iso swab a poke through and noc up?

I think poking the needle through the filter disks would greatly shorten their working life, and may even compromise their filtering ability the first time you do it. With this type of lid/disk setup, standard practice is to unscrew the lid and drop in whatever you're inoculating it with (whether spores, slurry, colonized grain or whatever) then put the lid back on.

I've had good results drilling a small hole in the mason jar directly, then piling a bunch of silicone over it (inside and out) to make it a multi-purpose airport/inoculation port. Any decent hardware store will have bits for drilling glass (go slow!).

[Indonesia]

good topic for discussion. my foaf said that with filter disks and plastic lids just be sure to make several smaller holes instead of one big one like when using polyfill. since the filter disk is on the inside of jar with the plastic lids, the filterdisk can get a lil wet when shaking, and then may contaminate. foaf was able to get less contams with plastic lids by only taking off aluminum foil in front of flowhood, and also making smaller holes in the lids and wrapping around lid with parafilm(fixes the problem of the lid not fitting perfectly tight) after innoculating in front of hood. foaf has many plastic lids and filterdisks but only uses filterdisks with the metal bands and lids now bc foaf wants the filterdisk on the outside of the jar staying clean and dry, on top of the lid with 2-4 small holes evenly spaced. when you unscrew and open the lid, you tilt the lid to one side and the lid comes off with the filterdisk/band in one peice. foaf said that you can even make a one peice lid with metal lids/bands by putting tape across the top of jar from one side of band to the other, holding the filterdisk and band together, and the lid stays put with the band and disk. like tvcasualty said this type of filterdisk setup is geared for flowhood/glovebox bc gotta open the lid to do a transfer.

I've had good results drilling a small hole in the mason jar directly, then piling a bunch of silicone over it (inside and out) to make it a multi-purpose airport/inoculation port. Any decent hardware store will have bits for drilling glass (go slow!).

thats sounds like a great idea bc you can use filterdisks without opening the jar to transfer. do the jars hold up well to shaking or smacking on a tire?

[ishkaboo]

Originally Posted by TVCasualty

Search "70mm Autoclavable Plastic Lids" at the FP website and they'll come up.

I've been searching for the type of lids FP sells for years, but so far they're still the only company I know of that sells that particular type. I bought a bunch of them about ten years ago and they all still work like new. They also have wide-mouth lids and filter disks available.

Thanks.

I think poking the needle through the filter disks would greatly shorten their working life, and may even compromise their filtering ability the first time you do it. With this type of lid/disk setup, standard practice is to unscrew the lid and drop in whatever you're inoculating it with (whether spores, slurry, colonized grain or whatever) then put the lid back on.

Crap, that kinda screws up my plans. I put silicone ports on the lid with the air hole in the middle thinking I would just put the filter disk under the lid and poke through it to innoc. (I don't have a flowhood, only a glovebox and am VERY hesitant to open any sterilized jar in the glovebox to innoc.)

I will have to cut the disks up into little circles and fasten them over the hole after all. Maybe I can make this work out ghetto style with these ball lids until I can get those autoclavable ones with the 70MM quarts (I have 90mm wide mouths so those lids won't fit)...

I was thinking just cutting the filter disk up and merely fastening it over my air hole on the top with something like duct tape and maybe some silicone. I don't see why this wouldn't get the job done for now, I mean people put polyfill in the same type of hole I made, the filter disk should function in very much the same way just not getting as wet/risk for contam.

[waterchilde]

I started with a glovebox and I've used filter disks with alum foil over the top and innoculate in a glovebox by opening the jar and inserting whatever , spore syringe, LC, agar, or rye seed, just be aware and move your hands slowly while in the box and always nuke the site first.

[ishkaboo]

Do the filter disks even offer that much of an advantage?

Wouldn't putting micro-pore tape over the hole I made in the middle of my lids do the same thing?

[TVCasualty]

Originally Posted by ishkaboo

Do the filter disks even offer that much of an advantage?

Wouldn't putting micro-pore tape over the hole I made in the middle of my lids do the same thing?

They do for me, but their value really depends on the way you grow. If you have all the nice lab gear (HEPA filter, pressure cooker, good sterile technique, etc) then the lid/disk combo is ideal and hard to beat for simplicity and toughness. No silicone, no maintenance, no modification of the equipment besides drilling a hole, etc. I'd also say that their value increases as you increase your output; if you use more than 10-20 quarts at a time, making and maintaining custom lids becomes tedious, at least to me.

However, if opening the jar to add spawn is problematic then it might not be the best approach. I think their higher cost is a non-issue when considering buying the lids and disks since they last indefinitely, unlike any other method involving silicone or metal parts, or even spawn bags for that matter; silicone wears out and needs replacing, metal eventually will rust (esp. if you're lazy like me and occasionally leave dirty lids sitting in soapy water a day or two longer than anticipated), and using any tape at all is a major pain in the ass IMO. I've found no other ways of incubating spawn that you can purchase once and use the rest of your life, or at least it seems like it since I've been using some lids and disks together a few times a year for over 10 years now.

And you can certainly use them in gloveboxes like waterchilde pointed out, though I really think that a flow hood is a piece of equipment that anyone who wants to get deeper into this hobby than growing out a few PF Tek-style jars should buy. It's kind of like how I think anyone who wants to build a house should buy a nailgun and a compressor, but if they only want to build a shed then a hammer will do. You can still build a house with a hammer, but it'll be a breeze (and not drive you insane) if you use a nailgun.

And FP sells wide-mouth (90 mm) filter disks and lids, BTW.

Originally Posted by Indonesia

my foaf said that with filter disks and plastic lids just be sure to make several smaller holes instead of one big one like when using polyfill. since the filter disk is on the inside of jar with the plastic lids, the filterdisk can get a lil wet when shaking, and then may contaminate. foaf was able to get less contams with plastic lids by only taking off aluminum foil in front of flowhood, and also making smaller holes in the lids and wrapping around lid with parafilm(fixes the problem of the lid not fitting perfectly tight) after innoculating in front of hood.

I've never had a problem with my lids, and I just drilled a single hole in them. My disks don't get wet (a bit damp is all), but clumps of grain and even BRF slurry sticks to them after a shake. The disk right under the hole in the lid also tends to turn dark brown to black while they incubate, but that doesn't seem to be a problem nor does it appear to be contamination.

When I'm done using a jar, I pop the disk out of the lid with a pencil eraser, scrub the disk gently with a kitchen pad (using dishsoap and hot water), then soak the disks in a 20% bleach solution in some sealed tupperware for a while (the tupperware lid holds the disks completely under the bleach water). I drain the bleach after they're pure white again. Rust will stain them, but won't affect their usefulness.

IMO, not doing a prolonged bleach soak can make them fail since there might be leftover gunk from the last grow acting as a contaminant bridge through the disk, but bleach destroys all of those so you start each grow fresh, and you're generally done with them before a new "bridge" forms.


And regarding the question about a how well a drilled jar holds up to shaking, I'd have to say I haven't shaken a drilled jar more than a couple of times so far since I had to focus on other things for a while and set those experiments aside. Unfortunately, my impression is that a hole drilled into the middle of the bottom of the jar would leave it more structurally sound than a hole in the side up near the lid (where it'd be a lot more convenient). It's a serious concern, and anyone drilling a hole in a jar should be VERY careful with it afterwards (assume it will bust when you shake it; you can slit your wrist very easily with a shard of broken mason jar).

Frankly, the concern about breaking a drilled jar is probably high enough to limit using them to things like LC's and airports, or with the slurry tek (anything not requiring a hard shake). It might work a few times, but the increased risk of serious injury makes it a "Use At Your Own Risk" technique.

[MLBjammer]

That is a good point about the laminar flowhood. That is my next big purchase.

[Indonesia]

I've never had a problem with my lids, and I just drilled a single hole in them. My disks don't get wet (a bit damp is all), but clumps of grain and even BRF slurry sticks to them after a shake. The disk right under the hole in the lid also tends to turn dark brown to black while they incubate, but that doesn't seem to be a problem nor does it appear to be contamination.

my foaf was using lc at the time there were contams..foaf probably got grain too wet with lc and then it got the filter wet while shaking and contaminated.

filter disks do offer an advantage. micropore tape has nothin on the filter disks. disks have efficient filtration to .3 microns. my foaf can reuse the lids/disks over and over without cleaning..foaf just removes lids from jars and scrapes grain off metal lid and stacks them for use again..has no problems with contaminations. the lids eventually rust out but the bands stay good for a long time. my foaf does pc for 1 hr 45 min..foaf knows its a long time sterilizing, but foaf has had only 3 bad jars out of last 3-4 hundred whilst using filterdisks. sometimes foaf will let jars sit a week or longer before innoculating and has no problems with the long sterilization time. 2 941 AA sterilizing 40 jars at a time so foaf can afford to go 1hr45min sterilizing.

[waterchilde]

Hey, I like that idea and will give it a try this week and let ya know if there is any actual difference. I used to grow MJ back in the day and learned a long time ago that "there are as many ways to grow as there are growers" and I would have to say that the same holds true with fungi. I see various recipies for every substrate, agar and LC and figure that in time I will develop my own recipies and methods but learning from others is an invaluable tool and I cant thank the community enough for all that I have picked up so far... Question, I want to know if a 14 gauge 3" needle with a blunt tip will work for a LC airport and LC syringe tip. I figure that I could sharpen them if I have to but wonder if they will work as is and still allow my self-sealing ports to close.. Anyone know or have experience with that gauge? I thought that I could simply use one of the tips to poke thru one of my extra lide and just see how it holds up. sleepwalkin...

[Mr. Kush]

14 guage would be fine for airport, but it might get clogged when sucking up the lc if it is thick.

injection port should close up fine, just do it slowly, never used that 14 guage myself but I hear it's fine just might not get as many uses out of the silicone injection port.