Deep Water Culture

[Cheebabear]

I have just completed a soil grow and would like to try my hand at DWC. I have 4 5 gallon buckets with net tops and hydroton that have been sitting around waiting to be setup.

My question is, should I purchase a TDS meter, a PH meter, both, or neither for maintaining a deep water culture hydro grow?

Also, if you feel I should purchase one or both and know of a good quality fairly inexpensive model, please let me know!

Thanks

[Hippie3]

both are pretty useful in the long run,
both are fairly delicate, fragile instruments
and not real cheap.
consider it an investment
and never skimp on your tools,
get the best you can afford.

[HaiLeY]

Hi, a foaf has grown DWC for a while and started off using ph and tds meters. After a few grows using general hydroponics/lucas formula the need for these expensive tools was not needed. Good quality nutes like GH are designed to balance the ph pretty well when mixed with half decent water. A ph meter is handy to check the ph of your top-off water but really not essential. If you have some lazy cash go for it, I have seen the Hanna instruments perform reliably, but if you follow a tried and trued nute recipe they really are not needed in DWC. Goodluck

[the_other_chap]

You may find you can get away without either type of meter, but I'd certainly recommend getting both.

It takes away the element of uncertainty, and makes it much easier to diagnose any problems you might have.

I have a Bluelabs EC truncheon which I've been using for about 8 years and have never had any problems with it.

I used to have a Hanna pH meter, but the display lost some segments after about 2 years, and I replaced it with a Bluelabs pH truncheon which has been just as trouble-free (and very easy to use & calibrate) as the EC truncheon.

I'd recommend both instruments to anyone.

http://www.growthtechnology.com/nmtr-bl-truncheon.asp
http://www.growthtechnology.com/nmtr...-truncheon.asp

[Hippie3]

i know i was sure glad when i got my first ones,
turned out the tapwater i was using had an at start ph of like 9 or 10
and the tds read well over 600 ppm before adding anything.

[Cheebabear]

Thanks for the responses. I will definitely start hoarding away some dough and plan on purchasing both in the future.

[SonOfGaia]

With DWC bubbler buckets, I found it very helpful to use an additive such as Hydroguard when I fed my plants... it really helps against contams growing in the standing water that can creep up your stem and destroy your girls (moreso with DWC then other hydro systems).

Also, about once a week or so (at LEAST once every 2 weeks) flushing for 24hrs w/ just water and a product called Clearex works GREAT for getting rid of extra nutrient buildup that accumulates on the roots and in the stems of plants in DWC systems. Helps get rid of some of that dreaded 'nutrient lockout'. Also, when I do this flush, I mix some clearex with water in a spray bottle and spray all the roots down with it real well and clean my bucket w/ a 10% bleach solution to get all the nasties out. Bubbler buckets are off the heezy! Good luck!

[Phungivore]

i have yet to try DWC , but i had an idea that i would think could work great for DWC


here is what i read on place.

What are the Benefits of Aerated Compost Teas vs. Classic Teas?
<hr style="color: rgb(37, 140, 37);" size="1"> <!-- / icon and title --> <!-- message --> Aerated compost teas are the latest in scientific organic research today. In many ways, aerated teas offer greater immediate benefits than classic compost, manure, or other homemade foliar teas. Just by applying a cheap aquarium air pump to a 5 gallon bucket of tea, you can get amazing results. (Cheap, inexpensive aquarium airstones are also recommended to be applied to the hose in the water. This produces a better distribution of smaller air bubbles to make the aerobic soil/comosting microbes breed better.) Instead of just brewing teas for quick valuable water soluble nutrients from the compost or manure, you can breed a larger population of beneficial aerobic bacteria and fungi in the tea. It is the microherd in our soil, compost, and teas, that is really more important in soil development and disease control than just the soluble nutrients. Aerobic microherd populations reduce offensive smells in compost piles, the compost teas, and the soil. Aerobic microherd also break down bad poisons and pathogens into safe nutrients in hot compost piles and aerated compost teas. Diluted anaerobic compost or manure teas are great liquid fertilizers and disease controllers also. Many people prefer the anaerobic teas better because they are simpler and easier to design and apply. However, recent research has proven that the aerobic microherd populations fight diseases and bad soil and plant pathogens better and supply more power to your soil's total health and texture. Keep in mind that all types of organic and natural foliar teas are designed to complement and enhance, not replace, basic composting, green manuring, and organic mulching techinques in your garden. The soil microherd continue over months and years to eat up insoluble OM in the existing soil and the extra soil amendments and break them down into more available soluble nutrients for plants later in the year.

Technically even in un-aerated teas there is still some aerobic action taking place for several days. All fungi is aerobic. Some bacteria are totally aerobic, some bacteria are totally anaerobic, and some bacteria can act both aerobic or anerobic based on the soil or tea environment. Un-aerated teas can continue to keep alive some aerobic or aerobic/anaerobic microbes, for up to 10 days in a watery solution. After 10 days, the whole un-aerated tea will contain only anerobic microbes.

You can expect different microbial population levels in your tea based on weather, climate, temperature, seasons, etc. In the summertime you can expect your teas to brew faster and get to your optimal microbial levels faster than in cooler fall weather. Also tea odors, color, and foaminess on top of the tea, will vary based on temperatures too.

************************************************** **********

There are several different levels of teas as well as different recipes and styles. Here is the simple steps as outlined by one of our own GardwenWeb members who is an expert on teas and compost. This is a brief description of the different strength levels of tea making as outlined by "BILL_G" :

Level 1: Put a shovel full of good compost in a 5 gallon bucket of water, wait one week, and apply to garden or lawn either full strength or up to a 1:4 water ratio. This is an excellent source of ready available soluble nutrients. NOTE: If you stir your brew daily or every other day, it helps get more oxygen to the mix for better decomposition and better aerobic microbial population growth.

Level 2: Do same as above, but now add to the recipe a few cups of alfalfa pellets or some other cattle feed. Now you have extra nitrogen and trace elements from the bacterial foods.

Level 3: Do all above plus now add the air pump bubbler. Now you have more aerobic microbes to add to your soluble nutrients in the tea.

Level 4: Do all the above and now add a few tblsp of molasses or other simple sugar products. Now you really maximize the aerobic microbes in the tea, which in turn produce even more extra soluble nutrients from the bacterial foods.

************************************************** ********

Here is my suggestions also. You can add more high nitrogen foods in the tea. Remember the only main ingredients that are necessary to make a good bacterial and soluble nutrients tea are: aerobic compost and sugar products. Everything else is optional. Your teas can be as creative as you are. Let's assume a 5 gallon tea recipe for our example:

1. Add 1/2 bucket of finished hot compost. This supplies most of the beneficial aerobic microbes and soluble nutrients. Some people use slightly immature aerobic compost because it has more fresh nitrogen in it, but less microbes than finished hot compost.

2. Use 2-3 tblsp molasses, brown sugar, or corn syrup. This feeds and breeds the aerobic bacteria. Sugar products are mostly carbon which is what the microherd eat quickly. Add about 1-2 more tblsp of molasses for every 3 days of aerobic brewing to make sure the sugar is digested before touching the soil at application time, and to guarantee that the aerobic bacteria population stays strong throughout the brewing process. Molasses also contains sulfur which is a mild natural fungicide. Molasses is also a great natural deodorizer for fishy teas. For a more fungal tea don't add too much simple sugar or molasses to your aerobic teas. Use more complex sugars, starches and carbohydrates like in seaweed, rotten fruit, soy sauce, or other fungal foods.

3. Add 1-2 cans of mackerel, sardines, or other canned fish. Supplied extra NPK, fish oil for beneficial fungi, calcium from fish bones. Most commercial fish emulsions contain no fish oils and little to no aerobic bacteria. Fresh fish parts can be used, but because of offensive odors, it should composted separately with browns like sawdust first before adding to the tea brew. NOTE: For those organic gardeners who prefer vegetarian soil amendments, you can skip the fishy ingredients, it's not necessary. There is plenty of NPK in alfalfa meal and other grains that you can use.

(NOTE: If you use canned fish products, you may want to let it decompose mixed with some finished compost, good garden soil, etc. in a separate closeable container for a few days before using. Since most canned meat products contain preservatives, this will guarantee that the good microbes in the tea will not be killed off or harmed in brew making.)

4. Add 1 pack fresh seaweed. Supplies all extra trace elements. Seaweed can contain about 60 trace elements and lots of plant growth hormones. Seaweed is a beneficial fungal food source for soil microbes. Liquifying the seaweed makes it dissolve even faster.

5. Add 1-2 cups of alfalfa meal, corn meal, cattle feed, horse feed, catfish or pond fish feed. Supplies extra proteins and bacteria. Corn meal is a natural fungicide and supplies food for beneficial fungi in the soil.

6. Add rotten fruit for extra fungal foods. Add green weeds to supply extra bacterial foods to the tea.

7. Good ole garden soil is an excellent free biostimulant. Garden soil is full of beneficial aerobic bacteria, fungi, and other great microbes. Some people make a great microbial tea just out of soil. Forest soil is usually higher in beneficial fungi than rich garden soil.

8. Fill the rest of the container with rainwater, compost tea, or plain de-chlorinated water to almost the top of bucket. You can make good "rain water" from tap water by adding a little Tang (citrus acid) to the water mix before brewing. Urine water is also an excellent organic nitrogen source for teas (up to 45% N).

9. Some people like to add 1-2 tblsp of apple cider vinegar to add about 30 extra trace minerals and to add the little acidicity that is present in commercial fish emulsions. Many fish emulsions contain up to 5% sulfuric acid to help it preserve on the shelf and add needed sulfur to the soil. You can add extra magnesium and sulfur by adding 1-2 tblsp of Epsom salt to the tea.

10. Apply the air pump to the tea. NOTE: Some organic tea brewers prefer not to use the air pump method. You can get some extra oxygen in the tea by stirring it daily or every other day. The air pump just makes the oxygen levels in the tea happen faster than by hand, thus greatly increasing the rate of aerobic microbial growth in the tea. If you prefer to use the air pump, let it bubble and brew for at least 1-3 days. (NOTE: The 3 days limit is just a good guideline. The real test of brewing time is by your own sight and smell test, because everybody's tea is different due to the various microbial species and breeding activity that takes place during the brewing process.) The aerobic tea is ready to use when it has either an earthy or "yeasty" smell or a foamy layer on top of the tea. If not satisfied with the look or the smell of the tea, go up to a week of brewing. The extra brewing time will help the microbes digest more of the insoluble bacterial and fungal foods in the tea and make it more available for your plant's or your soil's nutritional needs.

Apply this tea full strength to get full nutrient levels per plant, or dilute it from a 1:1 down to a 1:5 water ratio to spread the beneficial microbes over a 1-acre garden area (mix 5 gallons of tea per 25 gallons of rainwater).

To reduce straining, you can place all your ingredients in a closed panty hose or laundry bag during the brewing cycle (don't use a too fine mesh bag or the beneficial fungi can't flow properly through the bag).

Here's another method to avoid straining and to maximize the amount of microbes in application: Simply turn off the air pump, stir the entire mixture real hard, and then let the mixture sit still for about 30 minutes. Scoop off the top juice straight into a watering can for application.

You can apply with a watering can, or simple cup, or in a sprinkling system. All compost teas can be used as a foliar feed or soil drench around plants. They also make great compost pile nitrogen and bacterial activators to heat up the pile for faster finished composting. Always take the remains for teas and recycle them back into your compost piles.

As stated, you can use your homemade tea as a foliar feed or as a soil drench or both. Soil drenches are best for building up the soil microbial activities and supplying lots of beneficial soluble NPK to the plant's root system and the topsoil texture. Foliar feeds are best for quick fixes of trace elements and small portions of other soluble nutrients into the plant through its leaves. Foliar feeds are also good for plant disease control. Foliar feeds work best when used with soil drenches or with lots of organic mulches around plants. You can poke holes in the soil around crop roots with your spade fork, to get more oxygen in the soil to further increase organic matter decomposition and increase microbial activity in the soil.

Aerated teas can also be used to greatly speed up the decomposition process of hot compost piles. The extra aerobic microbes in the tea will breed and cooperate with the aerobic microbes in the organic matter in the compost pile.

You should not use any liquid soaps as a spreader-sticker agent in a fertilizing/biostimulant tea like this. It can hinder or harm your aerobic microbes that you just grew in the tea. You need to use better products in your tea like liquid molasses, dry molasses powder, fish oil, or yucca extract as a spreader-sticker.

A good aerated tea is very economical. 5 gallons can be diluted to biostimulate an entire acre of garden via foliar spraying only. If you soil drench only, it takes at least 15 gallons of tea, before diluting, to cover an acre of garden soil. Also there is enough aerobic bacteria and fungi in a good 5 gallon batch of aerated tea, that is the equivalent of about 10 tons or 40 cubic yards of regular compost!

These homemade aerated compost teas are just as powerful, maybe more powerful, than any commercial natural or organic fertilizer or soil amendment on the market today. And they are a lot cheaper too! So have fun, be creative, and keep on composting!

Happy Gardening!

Making your own teas will save tons of $ also, not to mention that you have total control over the amounts that you add. Unlike what you buy at the "Hydro" store for a greatly marked up price.


i think with some carefull thinking and reading one could do a hydro organic DWC using the aboved info.

[The_supplier]

I have used DWC through several grows, and know someone who is using the same type of system (5 gal with net lids hydroton and two outlet air pump) with BC nutes, and tap water. He uses the liquid ph tester and the ratio on the bottle, and he has never had a problem, a ppm meter would pretty much cover all a growers needs if they are using good nutes and water, also a little leeching now and then.

[golly]

Great post Phungi..I use a similar bubbler with my worm farm runoff..It's wonderfull in the garden but my one and only experiment with DWC, using
this organic tea last Summer ended poorly..

Going to try again this summer with Tomatoes ,this time using a better method for changing out the solution..The bucket has to be sunk into the ground to keep the roots cool ,making it hard to drain...

[Hippie3]

i did that aero-tea long ago
let me tell you what,
it's guaranteed to really stink.
that nice warm bubbling brew will reek
so don't make it indoors if you live with people.

[Phungivore]

if you brew the tea ya need alot of air to keep it from stinking, i have 2 , 2 outlet air pumps ( the ones the pet shops sell for 55gallon fish tanks) any less and ya got just what hip talks about and that is the only way i can keep the stink down.

i had a stink bucket like a month ago when i just used one 2 outlet air pump, but after the addition of a second pump it smells as described in the article i quoted, wich was earthy kinda yeast like smell.

also i would not do the tea in the same bucket as DWC, but rather take the finished tea and ad it to the water in the dwc, but i think the juice would need to be diluted, and you might need more air pumps on the dwc then ya might normaly need.

another idea i had after looking at the hydroguard package, take a 5 gallon bucket fill it with rain or RO filtered water, then to that you ad 1 - 2 TBLS of unsulfered mollasses and bubble like tea then put some hydroguard in the bucket and reproduce the aerobic bacterias in the hydroguard. then ya can use a little of the bucket contents in your future grows

[SonOfGaia]

Call me simple, but I just add Iguana Juice + Hygrozyme + Cal-mag by the bottle instructions based on growth phase. Then I add about half-strength Liquid Karma cause its the dank. Regular bottle strength Hydroguard. Then I test the PPM and add Original Pure Blend Pro until I get the desired PPM for that growth phase. Gotta keep it pH balanced too. At 4 weeks flowering I'd be rockin about 1000 ppm.

If you can afford it, having a water circulator in each bucket works great. Especially when you get a lot of organic sediment...

That tea sounded intriguing for sure, but the reports of the foul smell kind of turn me away from the idea... I hate bad smells.

[Cheebabear]

Well, I am going to resurrect my long dead thread! I never did start DWC, but I've got until about March 08 when I've got to disassemble my grow closet and build a cabinet or similar and I think I'm going to try DWC and get one more grow before then.


I'll be using 5 gallon buckets with I believe 10" net lids (not around to double check). I have been reading some of the other posts on DWC and there seems to be a lot of members that are very knowledgeable on DWC.

I have a couple of questions before I start.

#1 - How much space from the bottom of the net to the surface of the water should there be?

#2 - Does it matter how deep the water is as long as you have plenty of air bubbling through it?

#3 - How far along do seedlings need to be before you plant them into the nets. When first planted the roots will not be sticking out below the nets and into the water? How do you treat them in this stage or will the roots quickly grow downward with no special treatment needed?


Thanks all