Non Cased: Compressed vs Loose subs

eatyualive · 05-12-09, 17:08

so i was chatting with hyph about this. ive always done my subs light and fluffy with excellent results unless the substrate has heavy amounts of straw. i will then compress the subs with heavy straw content.

now, over the years ive never needed to try the substrate compressed due to the loose subs working so well. so im running a two bin comparison now to see if there is any difference. there is also another two bin comparison coming in a few weeks too.

roughly the same amount of substrates, volumes, ratios, spawn and strains are being used. with the same exact chamber. they will be very close to proximity in light source and all aspects of the experiment. substrates are coir/verm/hips poo/ strawnet and 1/4 cup per bin of supercake formula. spawn is 2.5 quarts of wbs each bin.

not that i dont' beleive the compressed sub will work well i just have never tried it. and now hyph has convinced me to.

my guess is the fruits will be smaller in a bulk sub layed out flat and compressed. we are not talking about cakes or compressed cake format growing. just normal single tub with 3.5" sub depth. the sub depth of the compressed sub is about 2" pressed as hard as i could press it. both also have supercake formula in it.

so far 3 days both subs are completely colonized. the compressed subs appear to be more cottony. while the uncompressed sub seems to have more rhizomorphic strands popping upwards.

im sure many have done this before. but this is just my little test. i have two other bins being tested all with tasmanian strain clone as well.
all similar methods, ratios, fruiting chambers and temps.

same year old 2nd generation clone as in this thread. http://forums.mycotopia.net/holding-...al-update.html (Tasmanian devils do it again(2nd gen clone off 1yr old material Update))

this should be interesting. im not knocking either method and i have a preference now of light and fluffy. however, i always experiment to try to improve, so if this works well i may switch.

tub 1 compressed tub

tub 2 loose tub

eap · 05-12-09, 17:18

what does the substrate consist of ?
EDIT: sory i cant read. im looking forward to the results so i can copy them your grows are alway awesome

feralronin · 05-12-09, 17:33

"substrates are coir/verm/hips poo/ strawnet and 1/4 cup per bin of supercake formula. spawn is 2.5 quarts of WBS each bin."

Awesome eats, I have been wondering this myself now that I am doing PF cakes--->bulk mono and dubtubs.

Will be watching this one, my guess is that the compressed sub will shoot off fewer shrooms per flush, but weight will be near identical. And I think that the compressed sub will last more flushes.

In the end I am thinking the weight will be very close.

Can't wait to eat my words.

eatyualive · 05-12-09, 20:39

i think this might be the poo i used. correct me if im wrong hip.

http://www.mycrotopia.com/catalog/ca...lk%20Substrate

anyway, its bone dry, rock hard, and perfect. great deal actually best on the net and quality.

most of it is easier to break it up by hand. but some chunks are very hard. some of the biscuits you might need to add moisture to them and allow them to rehydrate for a bit say 30 mins before working with them by hand.

ive seen some horrible poo from other vendors off this site i won't mention that was wet and just smelled of ammonia and piss. the entire 50lbs of it contamed. and it was ordered dry. wettest dry poo i ever seen...lmao. i had to mix an entire 2 cubic foot bag of verm with it to lower the moisture content and dry it out for 3 days under fan and heat. and it still all contamed. had a friend test it out too. and it wasn't just me. his all contamed too. completely unprofessional and a waste of time and money. it wasn't even composted properly.

there is such thing as crappy crap. and this poo hip has is definitely top quality.

M&M420 · 05-12-09, 20:54

My thought process is that the fluffier would hold more water although would evap faster so....Idk.So did you pack it down real good?What's the depth comparison?

floppypeter · 05-12-09, 21:14

Pulling up a chair....

mushhut · 05-12-09, 22:55

Ive done compressed straw and it didnt fruit that well. I too seen that the mycelium in the compressed was more fluffy then an uncompressed. Your compressed subs will do beter then mine. I only used straw and ms spawn. Your using a mix sub and a clone. I cant wait to see your results.

psilytex · 05-12-09, 23:33

To me the "fluffy" looks alot healthier then compressed. Over the years Ihave noticed that I've always had great luck with "fluffier" mix ten compacting it.
I'm jealous btw.
very nice

p2k1 · 05-13-09, 00:03

Maybe the compressed could give you a higher yield eventually if you compressed more sub into the same space as occupied by the fluffy mix but what Ive seen and what stands to reason is that a compressed substrate will take longer to colonize and break down substrate. It just seems like common sense. If you have a couple inches of solid shit mud with absolutely no spacing and aeration how can you expect the mycellium to run through it?

eatyualive · 05-13-09, 00:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by meanman420

My thought process is that the fluffier would hold more water although would evap faster so....Idk.So did you pack it down real good?What's the depth comparison?

well both substrates were mixed exactly the same as the other. water was added prior to pasteurization and then once cool. spawned. once spawning was complete one substrate was compressed. so the water content should be exactly the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by p2k1

Maybe the compressed could give you a higher yield eventually if you compressed more sub into the same space as occupied by the fluffy mix but what Ive seen and what stands to reason is that a compressed substrate will take longer to colonize and break down substrate. It just seems like common sense. If you have a couple inches of solid shit mud with absolutely no spacing and aeration how can you expect the mycellium to run through it?

yes good point. i know in straw it runs quickly. but ive not compressed it to the point where its not fluffy enough to colonize. the timing on the spawn run was exactly the same.

p2k1 · 05-13-09, 01:17

Hey eat I really respect your work and would like to hear your thoughts on pasteurization. I read somewhere recently that it is essentially a waste of time and sterilization should be used. This caught my attention because that is infact what I have been doing.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/show...64/an/0/page/0
Is the basic method I followed, made a sub of basically 50/50 straw and composter manure (cow i believe) from a farm supply store, and a nice amount of verm thrown in too. No other additives. Put in oven bags at field capacity and put in the pc with the lid off and the bag draped over the edge held in with a pot of water on top. Didnt have a water/meat thermometer to read the water temp and essentially had the stove running a setting or too below the highest, realized later this was probably a lot higher than 140 degrees.
Anyways, six tubs were made this way and the only contamination any of them ever encountered was cobweb when they had to be packed up and got no fresh air exchange for an extended period. They also produced some monstrous texans.
It should also be noted that the house they were in was an absolute fucking shithole. The room they were in was kept clean had no carpet and was lysoled continuosly and had fans running but outside that room there was garbage and mold fucking everywhere. Like to an unbelieveable degree.
The tubs never contaminated tho.

Sorry if thats way too long but would like to hear your opinion on the matter

stimpy · 05-13-09, 02:03

this should be good

TVCasualty · 05-13-09, 10:26

I think I'll barge in and grab a front-row seat too.

My first impression of this method in a bulk setting is that it might need to be kept confined to small chunks; that is, maybe making the sub no bigger than one square foot by however many inches deep. That may allow the core to get more oxygen where a large area might suffocate it. That, or embedding an empty pipe (or one filled with perlite, maybe) with holes drilled in it into the middle of the sub might bring in enough air to let a compressed sub thrive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by p2k1

Hey eat I really respect your work and would like to hear your thoughts on pasteurization. I read somewhere recently that it is essentially a waste of time and sterilization should be used. This caught my attention because that is infact what I have been doing.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/show...64/an/0/page/0
Is the basic method I followed, made a sub of basically 50/50 straw and composter manure (cow i believe) from a farm supply store, and a nice amount of verm thrown in too. No other additives. Put in oven bags at field capacity and put in the pc with the lid off and the bag draped over the edge held in with a pot of water on top. Didnt have a water/meat thermometer to read the water temp and essentially had the stove running a setting or too below the highest, realized later this was probably a lot higher than 140 degrees.
Anyways, six tubs were made this way and the only contamination any of them ever encountered was cobweb when they had to be packed up and got no fresh air exchange for an extended period. They also produced some monstrous texans.
It should also be noted that the house they were in was an absolute fucking shithole. The room they were in was kept clean had no carpet and was lysoled continuosly and had fans running but outside that room there was garbage and mold fucking everywhere. Like to an unbelieveable degree.
The tubs never contaminated tho.

I wasn't specifically asked, but here's my thoughts on it: That thread you linked did not show the sub being sterilized. It was excessively pasteurized maybe, but if it was sterilized there would be no need to poke holes in the bag to prevent spontaneous bacterial contamination (for one thing). Also, 160℉ isn't even close to hot enough to sterilize anything. The beneficial bacteria that thrive at that temp would still be happy and healthy.

My own experience is that a sub or casing that I pasteurize for 3 hours or so at 150℉ is sufficiently resistant to contamination; I usually don't see any until it's already been tossed in the yard. Pasteurizing for only an hour or two gives me much worse results; the key seems to be to get the entire substrate up to about 150, then keep it there for at least two hours. As far as I can tell, that's enough time for the thermophilic bacteria to multiply sufficiently to inhibit contaminants. I think that because a sub I keep at 150 for several hours takes almost twice as long to cool down as one that only got up to 150 for an hour or less, and my guess is it's due to the thermogenesis caused by the beneficial (thermophilic) bacteria.

The other issue with sterilizing a bulk sub is pressure cooker capacity. For true sterilization, the cooker needs to be closed and brought up to 15 psi for at least an hour. That equates to many, many hours of watching the pressure gauge only to end up with a relatively small amount of substrate since most people are confined to an AA 921 or smaller cooker (such as a Presto that only holds four quarts).

kcmoxtractor · 05-13-09, 18:43

Very, interesting comparison eat, Ill be watching this one for sure.

eatyualive · 05-14-09, 04:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by p2k1

Hey eat I really respect your work and would like to hear your thoughts on pasteurization. I read somewhere recently that it is essentially a waste of time and sterilization should be used. This caught my attention because that is infact what I have been doing.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/7893964/an/0/page/0
Is the basic method I followed, made a sub of basically 50/50 straw and composter manure (cow i believe) from a farm supply store, and a nice amount of verm thrown in too. No other additives. Put in oven bags at field capacity and put in the pc with the lid off and the bag draped over the edge held in with a pot of water on top. Didnt have a water/meat thermometer to read the water temp and essentially had the stove running a setting or too below the highest, realized later this was probably a lot higher than 140 degrees.
Anyways, six tubs were made this way and the only contamination any of them ever encountered was cobweb when they had to be packed up and got no fresh air exchange for an extended period. They also produced some monstrous texans.
It should also be noted that the house they were in was an absolute fucking shithole. The room they were in was kept clean had no carpet and was lysoled continuosly and had fans running but outside that room there was garbage and mold fucking everywhere. Like to an unbelieveable degree.
The tubs never contaminated tho.

Sorry if thats way too long but would like to hear your opinion on the matter

pasteurization kills the bad, keeps the good. sterilizing just kills everything. i find both work great.

if you sterilize something. imho its more prone to contam if the slightest contam gets near it. take for instance grain jars.

im not against either. i like both. but its easier to pasteurize bulk amounts of substrates opposed to pressure cooking it in a bag. you may have to do several loads to accomplish what one oven baked pasteurization will make. you can simply get turkey tins. then mix your sub and add the water to just over field capacity to account for evaporation moisture loss. then stick foil over that and put it in the oven for 2.5 hours for 170 degrees. i go to 200 with ovens that have 200 as the minimum setting. the reaso i say 2.5 hours is that you get a half hour for the sub inside the tin to reach 200. its just an estimate. you could go longer. i used to do 4 hours. but its not necessary.

now as far as casings are concerned. i always sterilize casings. ive never had much luck pasteurizing a casing. it always contams for me.

i use both methods. but someones opinion on not pasteurizing most likely means they fail at pasteurizing.

they both work great. and in certain species you may need good bacteria in a casing to get fruits. then sterilization wouldn't work. you would need to pasteurize.

pasteurization is between 160 and 170. look in the new vaults here we have some nice steam pasteurization methods as well.

as far as going and saying pasteurization is a waste of time is a flawed statement. its been proven time and time again that it works great. its all preference. personally it takes longer to pasteurize. but in the end. you may have to run your pc a few times to equal the amount of substrate your using. so in the end, it takes longer if you have one pc. when you can fill a giant cooler with water and use the steam to pasteurize giant amounts of substrate within a 2 hour time frame. id like to see anyone try to make 4 tubs worth of subs by using spawn bags to sterilze in one pressure cooker. you might end up needing 3 pressure cookers to equal the amount of volume your getting in one ice cooler of pasteurizing a substrate.

sterilizing isn't bad. it should work fine if you pressure cooked your subs. just spawn in a clean room and it should be fine.

next time on cobweb spray it with a bottle filled with h202. should get rid of it.

turboinferno · 05-14-09, 06:57

Information gets me high, thanks!

pvacant · 05-14-09, 10:16

wow thanks Eats, already this thread has a ton of useful info. i have always packed mine down....so i can't wait to see the results. and god thanks everyone posting about pasteurizing versus sterilizing, although i haven't sterilized subs, only pasteurized, this info rocks. and about sterilizing casings, hum......gonna give that a go for a while and see how it works for me. thanks guys.

seedlessstinky1 · 05-14-09, 10:33

turned on and tuned in....with no intention of dropping out til the shrooms start poppin about...

IME jars tight(er) and subs loose(er). The colonization time seems to long, inviting contams when the sub is too tight, yet when its tight you theoretically have more food. soooo.

hhhmmmppp...coool thread.

Hippie3 · 05-14-09, 12:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by eatyualive

i think this might be the poo i used. correct me if im wrong hip.

http://www.mycrotopia.com/catalog/ca...lk%20Substrate

anyway, its bone dry, rock hard, and perfect. great deal actually best on the net and quality.

most of it is easier to break it up by hand. but some chunks are very hard. some of the biscuits you might need to add moisture to them and allow them to rehydrate for a bit say 30 mins before working with them by hand.

ive seen some horrible poo from other vendors off this site i won't mention that was wet and just smelled of ammonia and piss. the entire 50lbs of it contamed. and it was ordered dry. wettest dry poo i ever seen...lmao. i had to mix an entire 2 cubic foot bag of verm with it to lower the moisture content and dry it out for 3 days under fan and heat. and it still all contamed. had a friend test it out too. and it wasn't just me. his all contamed too. completely unprofessional and a waste of time and money. it wasn't even composted properly.

there is such thing as crappy crap. and this poo hip has is definitely top quality.

correct

hyphaenation · 05-14-09, 13:05

My uneducated guess would be the compressed sub would take slightly longer to colonize due to packing , but will give rise to larger , meatier fruits and have more flushes.

Can't wait to see some results. Thanks for doing this Eats.

eatyualive · 05-14-09, 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by hyphaenation

My uneducated guess would be the compressed sub would take slightly longer to colonize due to packing , but will give rise to larger , meatier fruits and have more flushes.
Can't wait to see some results. Thanks for doing this Eats.

hyph. they colonized at exactly the same time. everything is neck and neck right now.

tub 1 compressed tub

tub 2 loose tub

Hippie3 · 05-15-09, 08:25

ah, at least on the surface.
need to plug it, take core samples
as compression isn't evident on a surface
but under rather

extrememetal43 · 05-15-09, 10:08

good point hip, really cant wait to c the results of this one! best experiment in a while that ive seen...good work man!

eatyualive · 05-15-09, 13:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hippie3

ah, at least on the surface.
need to plug it, take core samples
as compression isn't evident on a surface
but under rather

yeah i put my force by weight on it. but its only about 1.5" lower than the fluffy substrate. i have no way of measuring how much pressure was used to compress it.

Indonesia · 05-15-09, 14:39

Quote:

i have no way of measuring how much pressure was used to compress it.

Heres how to get rough PSI measurement. Take the measurement of the area of the bottom of the bin in inches(length x width). then take one bin and put it over top the other bin when you compress, standing on the top bin. then take your weight divided by the area and you get pounds per square inch.

foaf remembers reading about compressing substrate in TMC or GGMM, not sure if it mentions how much pressure used and don't have a copy of either to find out

eatyualive · 05-15-09, 17:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indonesia

Heres how to get rough PSI measurement. Take the measurement of the area of the bottom of the bin in inches(length x width). then take one bin and put it over top the other bin when you compress, standing on the top bin. then take your weight divided by the area and you get pounds per square inch.

foaf remembers reading about compressing substrate in TMC or GGMM, not sure if it mentions how much pressure used and don't have a copy of either to find out

ill remember that for next time.

spacecake · 05-15-09, 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by turboinferno

Information gets me high, thanks!

lol..good one...

toadstooll · 05-16-09, 00:32

I tried this myself about 3 months ago. Used Coir,Verm. and worm poo. The fluffy was better all around. Got about an O more out of the fluffy, the packed took about 2 weeks longer to fruit also.

eatyualive · 05-16-09, 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by toadstooll

I tried this myself about 3 months ago. Used Coir,Verm. and worm poo. The fluffy was better all around. Got about an O more out of the fluffy, the packed took about 2 weeks longer to fruit also.

interesting. two weeks long. what strain?

eatyualive · 05-19-09, 15:59

well. not sure how many days. but pins started in both tubs today. the compressed substrate is slightly ahead on the pin formation. it has orange pinheads while the uncompressed tub is just beginning to show color.
very close neck and neck. might be gone during the conclusion of this thread. that will suck.

tub 1 compressed tub

tub 2 loose tub

kcmoxtractor · 05-19-09, 18:40

Nice, keep it comin!

extrememetal43 · 05-20-09, 01:37

go pins go!

ShroomGuerilla · 05-20-09, 09:40

Pulling up my seat.
Great project Eats.

eatyualive · 05-20-09, 10:39

update. you can see differences now. the compressed sub seems to be holding more water on the surface. both bins treated equally. no tilting or anything like that.

tub 1 compressed tub

tub 2 loose tub

eatyualive · 05-20-09, 11:06

someone brought up a good point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by anon

I noticed in the compressed/loose bin thread that your tubs look wet on the sub...

The reason i say anything is because i recently started doin tubs with poo and such. but i thought it wasnt good to have pooling water on the sub....

SO the other day i took a paper towel and dapped the water up...it looked like yours, w/o as many pins. Anyways, i am curious, was this unneccasary on my part, the shrooms really didnt seem to mind....i just thought id heard water on the sub was a no go...

I dunno your help would be sweet...thanks man.

its droplets of water. what you see is ok. but any denser than that and i tilt the bin to allow the moisture to roll off. also strain dependent. the tas is real tolerant of it. other strains may not be. so i might tilt those more. or wipe the lids more.

i used to do that with the paper towel. and still do depending on how much moisture you see. let it play it out. do one tub where you don't dab it with a paper towel. do another tub where you do.

i think small amounts of water are fine from experience. but this is substrate surface not casings. i might agree that a casing shouldn't have pooling water on it. and that its more sensitive to getting contams from it. but substrates are a bit tougher imho.

but once it gets to the fruiting stage. make sure to drop the rh about 10 percent by opening holes or whatever means you can. bc the water on the surface plus the fruting will create more moisture and water. and it may cause problems. thats usually where i see problems. right at the 2nd day of fruiting without dropping the rh.

a good indicator of this happening with mioisture buildup on the substrate is when you see your lid start to form water droplets on it. then its time to tilt or wipe that lid.

i do preventative things usually to combat pooling water if i see it forming.

1) sometimes there is so much moisture in a bin. you can actually see the water pooling underneath the black plastic. if your biin is completely colonized, you may dump this water out around the time pins start forming. this will help out quite a bit.

2) tilt the bin at an angle so the water runs off the substrate surface to the bottom of the tub. you can do this overnight or for several hours until you can visibly see that the water is gone. also tilting the bin you do not have to open the chamber at all. lessens your exposure to contamination as well. thats why preventative is the best imho.

3) open polyfil holes for a few hours. not too long so you don't dry out your tub. i find that 4 hours is my max before i start seeing the tub dry out.

4) you can wipe condensation on the sides and top of your bin with a clean paper towel. just make sure you do this in a clean area. and be clean.

seedlessstinky1 · 05-20-09, 11:15

Tubs are lookin great.

eatyualive · 05-20-09, 11:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by eatyualive

update. you can see differences now. the compressed sub seems to be holding more water on the surface. both bins treated equally. no tilting or anything like that.

tub 1 compressed tub

Attachment 128351

tub 2 loose tub

Attachment 128352

looking at these pictures i noticed something i didn't realize. a few grows ive had i had to press down the sub bc dunking would have been impossible given the height of the holes in these tubs. so a few actually looked very similar in growth to the bins im seeing. so thats a good thing. maybe some of those crazier or even flush were due to compressing. although ive not done it too much .just a few times recently not as firmly compressed as this sub either.

the timing for this experiment can't be more horrible. probably not be around when it matures to finish the experiment. damn...

extrememetal43 · 05-20-09, 12:05

interesting info about pooling of water. im having a problem ive never had before, im having to wipe the sides and lids daily since ive started incubating my tubs. it has a ton of water beads on the surface, no casing. i guess when i tilt it the water droplets are not large enough to pour off so i guess im cool. but thanks so much for the info exactly the problem im dealin with now.

eatyualive · 05-20-09, 14:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by extrememetal43

interesting info about pooling of water. im having a problem ive never had before, im having to wipe the sides and lids daily since ive started incubating my tubs. it has a ton of water beads on the surface, no casing. i guess when i tilt it the water droplets are not large enough to pour off so i guess im cool. but thanks so much for the info exactly the problem im dealin with now.

yes a little is ok. you don't really need to wipe the sides until fruiting begins. unless its just really oversatured. if you do big tubs. like above 64 quart or have very deep subs. id say you might need to do this more often. and if you spawn at a slightly higher temp before allowing everything to cool all the way. you may get more condensation buildup.

extrememetal43 · 05-20-09, 16:25

o theres a ton this time idk y on both monotubs im incubating at the moment. i mean drippin after two days from the lid. i used to incubate tubs at 80+ F but theres a lot less condensation when done at room temp and they colonize just as fast. these were done at room temp idk whats up with them! it may be bc ive had the air on lately and it may be causing the outside of the tub to be a lil bit cooler causing the condensation.

i guess youl be away this weekend when these are about done. ive been away a lot this past month and have been lucky that nothin needed harvested at those times...

eatyualive · 05-21-09, 01:14

tub 1 compressed tub

tub 2 loose tub

mydarling · 05-21-09, 02:57

on the topic of condensation - i've had my fair share of issues with it in the past when using monotubs. i like to see the condensation because it tells me the humidity is high enough, but it's also good to keep it in check to avoid puddling and such.

here's how i deal with the condensation:

1. make sure to not keep the tub near a window (even if it's closed) or an air vent, where temps can fluctuate a lot between night and day. this seems to cause a higher incidence of condensation.

2. always use a plastic bag inside the tub (pour substrate mixture on top, curl sides of plastic bag over surface of substrate). this ensures that if condensation on the sides drips down, it will pool underneath the plastic bag and not pool underneath the substrate itself, thus avoiding the soggy substrate and favorable contamination conditions.

3. drill a couple holes in a corner of the bottom of the tub. keep them taped most of the time, but open em once in a while so you can put the tub up at an angle and let the puddled water drain out.

4. dab the surface of the substrate with paper towel when necessary to remove the droplets. like eats said, a little bit of water collecting is not a bad thing - i've never really experienced any negative effects from the droplets on the substrate, but i like to dab 'em anyway.

5. wipe the sides and top of tub with paper towel daily or as needed. it will come back within a few hours!

don't mean to jack your awesome thread, eats - i was just inspired to chime with some tips since it came up

mydarling · 05-21-09, 02:58

btw eats, i've been watching this experiment closely and am interested to see the progress of the tubs. i always leave my tubs loose, so it'll be cool to see if that's actually better!

eatyualive · 05-21-09, 10:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by mydarling

on the topic of condensation - i've had my fair share of issues with it in the past when using monotubs. i like to see the condensation because it tells me the humidity is high enough, but it's also good to keep it in check to avoid puddling and such.

here's how i deal with the condensation:

1. make sure to not keep the tub near a window (even if it's closed) or an air vent, where temps can fluctuate a lot between night and day. this seems to cause a higher incidence of condensation.

2. always use a plastic bag inside the tub (pour substrate mixture on top, curl sides of plastic bag over surface of substrate). this ensures that if condensation on the sides drips down, it will pool underneath the plastic bag and not pool underneath the substrate itself, thus avoiding the soggy substrate and favorable contamination conditions.

3. drill a couple holes in a corner of the bottom of the tub. keep them taped most of the time, but open em once in a while so you can put the tub up at an angle and let the puddled water drain out.

4. dab the surface of the substrate with paper towel when necessary to remove the droplets. like eats said, a little bit of water collecting is not a bad thing - i've never really experienced any negative effects from the droplets on the substrate, but i like to dab 'em anyway.

5. wipe the sides and top of tub with paper towel daily or as needed. it will come back within a few hours!

don't mean to jack your awesome thread, eats - i was just inspired to chime with some tips since it came up

yeah i don't so much like the holes in each bottom corner. when i dunk. i don't want water to come pouring out.

also, stacking tubs on top of tubs. limits the condensation on the lid of the bottom tub. ill often rearrange tubs if a tub gets more condensation on the lid of one tub placing another tub on top of it.

i do place my tubs right next to a window. but the blinds are closed. but ive not noticed any heavy temperature fluctuations. or any condensation buildup. might vary from climate to climate if outside temp is really cold compared to your inside temp. the bins closer to the window have better pinsets usually.

mydarling · 05-21-09, 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by eatyualive

yeah i don't so much like the holes in each bottom corner. when i dunk. i don't want water to come pouring out.

i keep the holes duct taped for the majority of the time, including during dunking. they're only open when i need to drain collected condensation that pooled at the bottom.

eatyualive · 05-21-09, 18:06

tub 1 compressed tub

non-cased-compressed-vs-loose-subs-compressedmature3.jpg

tub 2 loose tub

another loose tub of tas in 64 quart tub below.

mydarling · 05-21-09, 18:09

hmmm, looking pretty darn close there. loose tub maybe has a slightly denser pinset?

eatyualive · 05-22-09, 12:18

tub 1 compressed tub

tub 2 loose tub

spacecake · 05-22-09, 12:46

Looks like it's a noticeable difference...!
I wonder how the final weight difference will be...

pvacant · 05-22-09, 14:16

ok a couple of questions for you "old" pros.

i have noticed in all the above pictures of Eats awesome experiment, that the compressed sub seems like less fruit, but larger. and the loose sub definitely has more fruit , but seem smaller. (at least in the pictures)
Now, will the total weight (or outcome) be roughly the same? or do you think not?

And on using bags inside of bins....when i did that i had a terrible outbreak of trich. I didn't put holes in the bag for drainage. should I? I am assuming yes,now; as to mydarling saying he tilts and drains,.... then there must be some holes in the plastic, right?

Quote: mydarling....
condensation on the topic of condensation - i've had my fair share of issues with it in the past when using monotubs. i like to see the condensation because it tells me the humidity is high enough, but it's also good to keep it in check to avoid puddling and such.

here's how i deal with the condensation:

1. make sure to not keep the tub near a window (even if it's closed) or an air vent, where temps can fluctuate a lot between night and day. this seems to cause a higher incidence of condensation.

2. always use a plastic bag inside the tub (pour substrate mixture on top, curl sides of plastic bag over surface of substrate). this ensures that if condensation on the sides drips down, it will pool underneath the plastic bag and not pool underneath the substrate itself, thus avoiding the soggy substrate and favorable contamination conditions.

3. drill a couple holes in a corner of the bottom of the tub. keep them taped most of the time, but open em once in a while so you can put the tub up at an angle and let the puddled water drain out.

umm I'm confused........!

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05-12-09, 17:08	#1 (permalink)
eatyualive ExoCannibalist Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 5,064	Non Cased: Compressed vs Loose subs so i was chatting with hyph about this. ive always done my subs light and fluffy with excellent results unless the substrate has heavy amounts of straw. i will then compress the subs with heavy straw content. now, over the years ive never needed to try the substrate compressed due to the loose subs working so well. so im running a two bin comparison now to see if there is any difference. there is also another two bin comparison coming in a few weeks too. roughly the same amount of substrates, volumes, ratios, spawn and strains are being used. with the same exact chamber. they will be very close to proximity in light source and all aspects of the experiment. substrates are coir/verm/hips poo/ strawnet and 1/4 cup per bin of supercake formula. spawn is 2.5 quarts of wbs each bin. not that i dont' beleive the compressed sub will work well i just have never tried it. and now hyph has convinced me to. my guess is the fruits will be smaller in a bulk sub layed out flat and compressed. we are not talking about cakes or compressed cake format growing. just normal single tub with 3.5" sub depth. the sub depth of the compressed sub is about 2" pressed as hard as i could press it. both also have supercake formula in it. so far 3 days both subs are completely colonized. the compressed subs appear to be more cottony. while the uncompressed sub seems to have more rhizomorphic strands popping upwards. im sure many have done this before. but this is just my little test. i have two other bins being tested all with tasmanian strain clone as well. all similar methods, ratios, fruiting chambers and temps. same year old 2nd generation clone as in this thread. http://forums.mycotopia.net/holding-...al-update.html (Tasmanian devils do it again(2nd gen clone off 1yr old material Update)) this should be interesting. im not knocking either method and i have a preference now of light and fluffy. however, i always experiment to try to improve, so if this works well i may switch. tub 1 compressed tub tub 2 loose tub __________________ Click for Eat's Reference

05-12-09, 17:33	#3 (permalink)
feralronin Professional Amateur Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 1,325	"substrates are coir/verm/hips poo/ strawnet and 1/4 cup per bin of supercake formula. spawn is 2.5 quarts of WBS each bin." Awesome eats, I have been wondering this myself now that I am doing PF cakes--->bulk mono and dubtubs. Will be watching this one, my guess is that the compressed sub will shoot off fewer shrooms per flush, but weight will be near identical. And I think that the compressed sub will last more flushes. In the end I am thinking the weight will be very close. Can't wait to eat my words. __________________ "I was actually saving it for my wedding day." -Mystic Truth > Authority

05-12-09, 20:39	#4 (permalink)
eatyualive ExoCannibalist Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 5,064	i think this might be the poo i used. correct me if im wrong hip. http://www.mycrotopia.com/catalog/ca...lk%20Substrate anyway, its bone dry, rock hard, and perfect. great deal actually best on the net and quality. most of it is easier to break it up by hand. but some chunks are very hard. some of the biscuits you might need to add moisture to them and allow them to rehydrate for a bit say 30 mins before working with them by hand. ive seen some horrible poo from other vendors off this site i won't mention that was wet and just smelled of ammonia and piss. the entire 50lbs of it contamed. and it was ordered dry. wettest dry poo i ever seen...lmao. i had to mix an entire 2 cubic foot bag of verm with it to lower the moisture content and dry it out for 3 days under fan and heat. and it still all contamed. had a friend test it out too. and it wasn't just me. his all contamed too. completely unprofessional and a waste of time and money. it wasn't even composted properly. there is such thing as crappy crap. and this poo hip has is definitely top quality. __________________ Click for Eat's Reference

05-12-09, 21:14	#6 (permalink)
floppypeter tra la la Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,229	Pulling up a chair.... __________________ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] WE FUNK RADIO

05-12-09, 17:18	#2 (permalink)
eap Mycophiliac Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 51	what does the substrate consist of ? EDIT: sory i cant read. im looking forward to the results so i can copy them your grows are alway awesome

05-12-09, 20:54	#5 (permalink)
M&M420 Voyager Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,455	My thought process is that the fluffier would hold more water although would evap faster so....Idk.So did you pack it down real good?What's the depth comparison?

05-12-09, 22:55	#7 (permalink)
mushhut Mycotopiate Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 875	Ive done compressed straw and it didnt fruit that well. I too seen that the mycelium in the compressed was more fluffy then an uncompressed. Your compressed subs will do beter then mine. I only used straw and ms spawn. Your using a mix sub and a clone. I cant wait to see your results.

05-12-09, 23:33	#8 (permalink)
psilytex The Salvanator Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 36	To me the "fluffy" looks alot healthier then compressed. Over the years Ihave noticed that I've always had great luck with "fluffier" mix ten compacting it. I'm jealous btw. very nice __________________ "I reject your reality and accept my own"

05-13-09, 00:03	#9 (permalink)
p2k1 Mycotopiate Join Date: Jul 1972 Posts: 326	Maybe the compressed could give you a higher yield eventually if you compressed more sub into the same space as occupied by the fluffy mix but what Ive seen and what stands to reason is that a compressed substrate will take longer to colonize and break down substrate. It just seems like common sense. If you have a couple inches of solid shit mud with absolutely no spacing and aeration how can you expect the mycellium to run through it?

05-13-09, 01:17	#11 (permalink)
p2k1 Mycotopiate Join Date: Jul 1972 Posts: 326	Hey eat I really respect your work and would like to hear your thoughts on pasteurization. I read somewhere recently that it is essentially a waste of time and sterilization should be used. This caught my attention because that is infact what I have been doing. http://www.shroomery.org/forums/show...64/an/0/page/0 Is the basic method I followed, made a sub of basically 50/50 straw and composter manure (cow i believe) from a farm supply store, and a nice amount of verm thrown in too. No other additives. Put in oven bags at field capacity and put in the pc with the lid off and the bag draped over the edge held in with a pot of water on top. Didnt have a water/meat thermometer to read the water temp and essentially had the stove running a setting or too below the highest, realized later this was probably a lot higher than 140 degrees. Anyways, six tubs were made this way and the only contamination any of them ever encountered was cobweb when they had to be packed up and got no fresh air exchange for an extended period. They also produced some monstrous texans. It should also be noted that the house they were in was an absolute fucking shithole. The room they were in was kept clean had no carpet and was lysoled continuosly and had fans running but outside that room there was garbage and mold fucking everywhere. Like to an unbelieveable degree. The tubs never contaminated tho. Sorry if thats way too long but would like to hear your opinion on the matter

05-13-09, 02:03	#12 (permalink)
stimpy rawr Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 411	this should be good __________________ RAWWR

05-13-09, 18:43	#14 (permalink)
kcmoxtractor Satan's Helper Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,349	Very, interesting comparison eat, Ill be watching this one for sure. __________________ "It was the straying that found the path direct" - Austin Osman Spare

05-14-09, 06:57	#16 (permalink)
turboinferno Mycophiliac Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 27	Information gets me high, thanks!

05-14-09, 10:16	#17 (permalink)
pvacant a DeAd BoY Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 191	wow thanks Eats, already this thread has a ton of useful info. i have always packed mine down....so i can't wait to see the results. and god thanks everyone posting about pasteurizing versus sterilizing, although i haven't sterilized subs, only pasteurized, this info rocks. and about sterilizing casings, hum......gonna give that a go for a while and see how it works for me. thanks guys.

05-14-09, 10:33	#18 (permalink)
seedlessstinky1 Stinks Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 1,480	turned on and tuned in....with no intention of dropping out til the shrooms start poppin about... IME jars tight(er) and subs loose(er). The colonization time seems to long, inviting contams when the sub is too tight, yet when its tight you theoretically have more food. soooo. hhhmmmppp...coool thread. __________________ Cognition of truth brings liberation from all restrictions

05-14-09, 13:05	#20 (permalink)
hyphaenation Puck Teknician Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 5,646	My uneducated guess would be the compressed sub would take slightly longer to colonize due to packing , but will give rise to larger , meatier fruits and have more flushes. Can't wait to see some results. Thanks for doing this Eats. __________________ We're just flying by the seed of our plants.

05-15-09, 08:25	#22 (permalink)
Hippie3 DUNG DEALER Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 43,268	ah, at least on the surface. need to plug it, take core samples as compression isn't evident on a surface but under rather __________________ visit dial-a-hippie .

05-15-09, 10:08	#23 (permalink)
extrememetal43 The Jester's Mad Chemist Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,204	good point hip, really cant wait to c the results of this one! best experiment in a while that ive seen...good work man! __________________ Pantera told me to smoke DMT!

05-16-09, 00:32	#28 (permalink)
toadstooll Mycophage Join Date: May 1971 Posts: 173	I tried this myself about 3 months ago. Used Coir,Verm. and worm poo. The fluffy was better all around. Got about an O more out of the fluffy, the packed took about 2 weeks longer to fruit also.

05-19-09, 15:59	#30 (permalink)
eatyualive ExoCannibalist Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 5,064	well. not sure how many days. but pins started in both tubs today. the compressed substrate is slightly ahead on the pin formation. it has orange pinheads while the uncompressed tub is just beginning to show color. very close neck and neck. might be gone during the conclusion of this thread. that will suck. tub 1 compressed tub tub 2 loose tub __________________ Click for Eat's Reference

05-19-09, 18:40	#31 (permalink)
kcmoxtractor Satan's Helper Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,349	Nice, keep it comin! __________________ "It was the straying that found the path direct" - Austin Osman Spare

05-20-09, 01:37	#32 (permalink)
extrememetal43 The Jester's Mad Chemist Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,204	go pins go! __________________ Pantera told me to smoke DMT!

05-20-09, 09:40	#33 (permalink)
ShroomGuerilla Myco-Monkey Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,300	Pulling up my seat. Great project Eats. __________________ Revolución motha fucka, you heard of it? I light the spliff with the flag, while I'm burnin it

05-20-09, 10:39	#34 (permalink)
eatyualive ExoCannibalist Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 5,064	update. you can see differences now. the compressed sub seems to be holding more water on the surface. both bins treated equally. no tilting or anything like that. tub 1 compressed tub tub 2 loose tub __________________ Click for Eat's Reference

05-20-09, 11:15	#36 (permalink)
seedlessstinky1 Stinks Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 1,480	Tubs are lookin great. __________________ Cognition of truth brings liberation from all restrictions

05-20-09, 12:05	#38 (permalink)
extrememetal43 The Jester's Mad Chemist Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,204	interesting info about pooling of water. im having a problem ive never had before, im having to wipe the sides and lids daily since ive started incubating my tubs. it has a ton of water beads on the surface, no casing. i guess when i tilt it the water droplets are not large enough to pour off so i guess im cool. but thanks so much for the info exactly the problem im dealin with now. __________________ Pantera told me to smoke DMT!

05-20-09, 16:25	#40 (permalink)
extrememetal43 The Jester's Mad Chemist Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,204	o theres a ton this time idk y on both monotubs im incubating at the moment. i mean drippin after two days from the lid. i used to incubate tubs at 80+ F but theres a lot less condensation when done at room temp and they colonize just as fast. these were done at room temp idk whats up with them! it may be bc ive had the air on lately and it may be causing the outside of the tub to be a lil bit cooler causing the condensation. i guess youl be away this weekend when these are about done. ive been away a lot this past month and have been lucky that nothin needed harvested at those times... __________________ Pantera told me to smoke DMT!

05-21-09, 01:14	#41 (permalink)
eatyualive ExoCannibalist Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 5,064	tub 1 compressed tub tub 2 loose tub __________________ Click for Eat's Reference

05-21-09, 02:57	#42 (permalink)
mydarling Modtastic Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 2,034	condensation on the topic of condensation - i've had my fair share of issues with it in the past when using monotubs. i like to see the condensation because it tells me the humidity is high enough, but it's also good to keep it in check to avoid puddling and such. here's how i deal with the condensation: 1. make sure to not keep the tub near a window (even if it's closed) or an air vent, where temps can fluctuate a lot between night and day. this seems to cause a higher incidence of condensation. 2. always use a plastic bag inside the tub (pour substrate mixture on top, curl sides of plastic bag over surface of substrate). this ensures that if condensation on the sides drips down, it will pool underneath the plastic bag and not pool underneath the substrate itself, thus avoiding the soggy substrate and favorable contamination conditions. 3. drill a couple holes in a corner of the bottom of the tub. keep them taped most of the time, but open em once in a while so you can put the tub up at an angle and let the puddled water drain out. 4. dab the surface of the substrate with paper towel when necessary to remove the droplets. like eats said, a little bit of water collecting is not a bad thing - i've never really experienced any negative effects from the droplets on the substrate, but i like to dab 'em anyway. 5. wipe the sides and top of tub with paper towel daily or as needed. it will come back within a few hours! don't mean to jack your awesome thread, eats - i was just inspired to chime with some tips since it came up __________________ tonight your ghost will ask my ghost, who put these bodies between us?

05-21-09, 02:58	#43 (permalink)
mydarling Modtastic Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 2,034	btw eats, i've been watching this experiment closely and am interested to see the progress of the tubs. i always leave my tubs loose, so it'll be cool to see if that's actually better! __________________ tonight your ghost will ask my ghost, who put these bodies between us?

05-21-09, 18:06	#46 (permalink)
eatyualive ExoCannibalist Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 5,064	tub 1 compressed tub tub 2 loose tub another loose tub of tas in 64 quart tub below. Attached Thumbnails __________________ Click for Eat's Reference

05-21-09, 18:09	#47 (permalink)
mydarling Modtastic Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 2,034	hmmm, looking pretty darn close there. loose tub maybe has a slightly denser pinset? __________________ tonight your ghost will ask my ghost, who put these bodies between us?

05-22-09, 12:18	#48 (permalink)
eatyualive ExoCannibalist Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 5,064	tub 1 compressed tub tub 2 loose tub Attached Thumbnails __________________ Click for Eat's Reference

05-22-09, 12:46	#49 (permalink)
spacecake Universal Mod Join Date: May 1972 Posts: 4,734	Looks like it's a noticeable difference...! I wonder how the final weight difference will be... __________________ "As a child, i could walk on the ceiling. I'd butterfly up on the walls"