Spirituality

[fattyz]

The following is a quote from "I am that" talks with Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj.


"Does going free mean I will have to give up an active life?'

"Not at all. There will be marriage, there will be children, there will be earning money to maintain a family; all this will happen in the natural course of events for destiny must fulfill itself; you will go through it without resistance, facing tasks as they come. attentive and thorough, both in small and big things. But the general attitude will be of affectionate detachment, enormous goodwill, without expectation of return, constant giving without asking. In marriage you are neither the husband nor the wife; you are the love between the two. You are the clarity and kindness that makes everything orderly and happy. It may seem vague to you, but if you think a little, you will find that the mystical is most practical, for it makes your life creatively happy. Your consciousness is raised to a higher dimension, from which you realize that the person you became at birth and will cease to be at death is temporary and false. You are not the sensual, emotional and intellectual person, gripped by desires and fears. Find out your real being. What am I? is the fundamental question of all philosophy and psychology. go into it deeply."

This teaching is from a Hindu sect originally, but the teacher denies any ties to any sect.
I will let him speak for himself.


FattyZ

[Hippie3]

but i AM a sensual, emotional, intellectual being
and i enjoy it.
i don't want to be detached.

[fattyz]

I feel like you do, but I always thought there was more to us.

"Senses are mere modes of perception. As the grosser modes disappear, finer states of consciousness emerge."

When I used psychoactive substances years ago, it was for pleasure alone. This time I hope for enlightenment.

(I think)

[Hippie3]

i reject, first and foremost,
the use of the terms 'grosser' and 'finer'-
the terms are undefined
and presuppose a distinction
not readily apparent to those
not already inclined to agree.

one cannot measure 'modes of perception'
and thus grades from 'gross' to 'fine' are
subjective, matters of opinion only.

you call your spiritual beliefs
'fine'
and those who are material
'gross'
by your very definition.

i don't see that distinction as valid.
it sounds like
the emperor's new clothes,
too fine for mere commoners to 'see'.

but in reality-
despite the snobs' agreeing how fine it was,
how they all saw it,-
there was nothing to see.
just ego deluding itself.

[aumbrellaforainydays]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

but i AM a sensual, emotional, intellectual being
and i enjoy it.
i don't want to be detached.

What fear exists though after one is detached?
What is living, except an ultimately desire not to cause harm to myself and others?
We cant detach completely from our senses, emotions and intellect, but through practice people do realize and notice their extremes, which may free one from being completely subject to destructive states of perceiving, feeling and thinking.
But its also the root of what is us, and at the same time all of it is transient, since we all die eventually.

Does going free mean I will have to give up an active life?'

Isnt the discipline of liberation in many spiritual traditions "an active life" towards becoming more attuned, aware of the many dimensions of life?

Originally Posted by fattyz

....It may seem vague to you, but if you think a little, you will find that the mystical is most practical, for it makes your life creatively happy. Your consciousness is raised to a higher dimension, from which you realize that the person you became at birth and will cease to be at death is temporary and false.

the word mystical, in Greek mystikos means "an initiate".

wiki says of mysticism, "the pursuit of achieving communion identity with, or conscious awareness of, ultimate reality, the divine, spiritual truth, or God through direct experience, intuition, or insight."

the fact that we do die and that a lot people do indeed fear dying because it means the end of their selves could qualify as an insight or experience initiated to free one from that fear. however i think many (at least in the west) are quick to defend any notions that they're identity is just temporary and false. for dont god's chosen people who have been saved and repented choose to believe that their selves in fact do not stop, but continue to be?

[Hippie3]

detachment is not the only
nor the best
way to conquer 'fear'.
courage and knowledge both defeat fear
and do not require
detaching one self prematurely from this life.

[Ras Asad]

"Fear is a question: What are you afraid of, and why? Just as the seed of health is in illness, because illness contains information, your fears are a treasure house of self-knowledge if you explore them."....

"For as children tremble and fear everything in the blind darkness, so we in the light sometimes fear what is no more to be feared than the things children in the dark hold in terror and imagine will come true."
-Titus Lucretius Carus [99-55 B.C.], De Rerum Natura

[aumbrellaforainydays]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

detachment is not the only
nor the best
way to conquer 'fear'.
courage and knowledge both defeat fear
and do not require
detaching one self prematurely from this life.

of course courage and knowledge are both, if not just as valuable in the discovery of self wisdom. but detaching from the subjectiveness of our consciousness may help see things about ourselves in a new light where courage and knowledge may be easier to recruit, since we no longer are clouded by what really matters.

[Hippie3]

ah, 'clouded'

another undefined & unquantifiable / unmeasurable quality-term
with a implied negative connotation
i.e. better to be 'clear' than 'clouded', right ?
whatever the f@ck that means.

[fattyz]

I am glad the work is stimulating a discussion. I like it, but I can't say I want to be an apologist for it. Against Hip, whose ability to expound his arguments in writing is far superior to mine, I wouldn't stand a chance. I like and respect an opposing view, because it makes me think outside my own box, which without outside stimulation, I often don't.

Along with these writings I also like the Bible, (King James version only) which as you probably know are at odds. (Try selling that one to the average protestant minister) So like I said somewhere else, I am not totally on anyones side, because no one is totally on my side, but I like a lot of different things. This book is one of them.

"You cannot possibly say that you are what you think yourself to be! Your ideas about yourself change form moment to moment. Your self-image is vulnerable, at the mercy of a passer by. A bereavement, the loss of a job, an insult, and your image of yourself, which you call your person, changes deeply."

Yours,

[pareil]

Originally Posted by fattyz

I feel like you do, but I always thought there was more to us.

to me, the sensual, emotional, intellectual life we are born into
seems all the more precious if it is all we get.
even if our experience is finite, temporary,
the fact of our existence remains,
hardly false.
seeking to detach or transcend
is imo a bit like seeing only poo
where clearly there are mushrooms.

[crazy1]

To me we are just a great energy, placed in these containers (bodies) for a short time on this rock we call earth. We're here to learn, not be detached from this experience.
We are all sensual, emotional, and intellectual beings.
Upon leaving this rock the great energy we are goes into the immense vastness of the universe and shares our "oneness" and the lessons we learned here. We are all ONE in the immense community of energy that exists out there. The meaning of "Namaste" says it all.
Just MHO.

[fattyz]

"Man's fivefold body (physical etc.) has potential powers beyond our wildest dreams. Not only is the entire universe reflected in man, but also the power to control the universe is waiting to be used by him. The wise man is not anxious to use such powers, except when the situation calls for them. He finds the abilities and skills of the human personality quite adequate for the business of daily living. Some of the powers can be developed by specialized training, but the man who flaunts such powers is still in bondage. The wise man counts nothing as his own. When at some time and place some miracle is attributed to some person, he will not establish any causal link between events and people, nor will he allow any conclusions to be drawn. All happend as it happened because it had to happen; everything happens as it does, because the universe is as it is."

[burnhard]

Yes the fundmental question of all times is who am i? i have figured it out already, have you? Once you figure that out u are free!!

[Hippie3]

i have figured it out already

sure you do...

[Beastmaster]

All this mystical mumbo jumbo is easy to get caught up in. But when you get to the end of your path to enlightenment and clarified thought and unclouded vision, what do you find?

You find that Beginner's Mind is what you now need to learn to attain to. Your 'advanced' modes of thinking not only make it difficult to relate to those inhabiting 'lower consciousness', but they get in the way of leading your life in a happy healthy fashion. Seems not much different than developing an Obsessive Compulsive Disorder: I need to do my ritual, I need to toss my stones/shuffle my cards, I need to say my prayer, and I need to do it 5 times before I make a decision or start my day or eat or...

What good is all that 'spiritual work' if in the end you are just an elitist putz that thinks he's 'got it' and is so much more advanced than the 'commoners' who you now need to convince that they need to follow you down your long road of hardship and practice? (and probably pay you for the privilege of showing them the way...)

Ignorance is not only blissful, but holy as well. Blessed are the meek, the humble, the simple.

This apparent need to separate ourselves from, well this entire existence/experience of being alive and on this planet at this time, is what you do when you're dead. I want to spend this time doing exactly the opposite, living, breathing, experiencing.

Being happy, right here, right now, completely, 100%, and not wishing I'd done things different, or spending my time worrying what I'm gonna do in the future, is what's important to me. That and treating the people, organisms, and pretty much everything else around me with love and respect. That's what I view as my 'spiritual goal and/or duty' in this life.

And I don't need to spend years of my time learning to ignore myself and the things around me to know that.

[fattyz]

I find it soothing rather than upsetting. It's not for everyone I suppose. The first time I was exposed to it was through Christianity. I heard it referred to here as "ego death" a state brought on by very high doses of mushrooms. I am, I want, I need, I have to have, I know, I'll kill you to get, I'll kill you to keep you from taking mine, etc. A state when all that is gone. When there is nothing to defend. Pure non - violence.
I've met people like that. It is a strange experience. They don't resonate like others, their frequency is different.
Peace

[Hippie3]

They don't resonate like others, their frequency is different.

yet even more undefined pseudo-mystic gobbledegook .
what's my frequency now kenneth ?

[fattyz]

Hip, you must be from the show me state.

Not everything can be easily explained and just because one disagrees does not mean what the other person is saying is nonsense. IMHO.

[Hippie3]

i'm open to evidence,
got any ?

but i won't entertain fantasy just to be tactful-
as i see it
you represent here, now,
a way of thought,
a system of theology & philosophy
that is
part of the problem,
not the solution.

i feel it is my duty to expose the fallacies,
the deceptions,
the trickery employed to
find and make converts to this pseudo-religion,
and in doing my duty
i certainly expect that
adherents of your philosophy would object,
it's only natural.

nevertheless i will carry on about my duty as i see it.
en garde !

[fattyz]

As stated, I did not intend to represent, rather to present and, if my post looked like a defense of the system, I would say rather it is an example of how it has worked for me. As for the sword, I'll pass.

Evidence? No. How does one provide evidence of how one feels, or is effected by a thought, system, belief? What sort of evidence is there for some idea helping you get through a thing for example? You got through it, but can you prove how?

I would like to know which problem are you referring to and, which system you object to , Hinduism, Christianity or the misuse of them, and how they are part of it.

[Hippie3]

i object to hinduism, buddhism, christianity, judaism, islam-
you name it.
and that includes new age neo-paganism, wicca, shamanism ,
etc.
all are shams,
lies.
con jobs meant to control the masses and convince them
that their elites/priests/holy men
have more knowledge
and thus we should listen and obey.

give up sex,
give up meat,
even give up desire itself.
for what ?
some invisible heaven or even some black void.

you want to talk about true evil ?
there it is-
the evil lie that turns us against this world,
that makes people despise the fleshly gifts of god
and lead lives of jumping thru hoops
set up by mere men on power trips.

be like me
they say,
follow me,
oh yeah, donate your gold too
and free labor of course,
gotta build more temples ya know.

burn them all,
hang the priests
and be done with it.
that would be an end
to the greatest dark age our species ever endured.

[Beastmaster]

The problem is religion in general, go ahead and pick a system.

The problem is that religion can lead a seeker blindly to both selflessness and/or fanaticism. Both are produced by religion through the mechanism of encouraging humans to become 'better' so that they might treat each other better, and have better lives. Nothing wrong with that, right?

Wrong, at least when there are multiple systems all claiming to be the proper path to the top of the hill. And that to climb the hill is to satisfy the desires of an all powerful being, and avoid his/her/its wrath for not following The Guidelines, or for following another set of guidelines that are just as similar as they are different, but basically go to the same place.

Why do we need the excuse of pleasing this all powerful being to be good to ourselves and each other? Once upon a time, when civilization relied on either fear or an iron fist to keep the uneducated masses in line, religion served that purpose. But in this modern age of civilization, our boundaries are overlapping, globalization is bringing us all uncomfortably close to one another, and such proximity provides the opportunity for cross comparisons and/or combinations of our belief systems.

The answer, I think we will find, is that there doesn't need to be a reason for being civil, fair, honest, etc. Do it not out of fear of hell, but out of love for yourself and your fellow occupants of this planet.

Damn hip beat me to it...

edit: BTW, I've been reading Breaking the Spell by Daniel C. Dennett, which covers this topic in very good detail, it's been a real eye opener for me... I used to chase around every bit of mystical mumbo jumbo I could find, sorta what led me here come to think of it... Anyways, I recommend this book to, well everyone, especially if you're interested in what's being discussed in this thread.

[pareil]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

that would be an end
to the greatest dark age our species ever endured.

[fattyz]

And well said I must say. And, a very old argument indeed, so old in fact that it tends to go around and around. It is pointless to argue about such things because in the end, there can be no agreement, just opposing sides, both insisting that they are right, and that they have won. The only real victory available is the complete destruction of the opposition IMHO. Some religions wish this for those who oppose them, I don't.

Your position clearly stated and understood, I will post on this thread no further. Please pardon me as I was unclear as to you exact beliefs, and do not wish to post material here that is in any way offensive or unwelcome, nor was that my intention. I just had not read enough of your posts to get a real clear picture.

That said, I think we are on the same page on many other things and I look forward to reading/participating here. I respect your opinion and your ability to express it.

"Look to see me no more."

FattyZ

[Beastmaster]

Its times like that where I rely on logic and science to get me through to the truth.

That's why I suggested Breaking the Spell. The author addresses this very subject in a way that is very approachable to all but a very few, those who believe that even questioning their faith is a 'sin'. But due to the problems provided by religion, don't you think we owe it to the world to address these types of problems? from Breaking the Spell:

Religions are among the most powerful natural phenomena on the planet, and we need to understand them better if we are to make informed and just political decisions. Although there are risks and discomforts involved, we should brace ourselves and set aside our traditional reluctance to investigate religious phenomena scientifically, so that we can come to understand how and why religious inspire such devotion, and figure out how we should deal with them all in the twenty-first century.

Lets talk, its good for all of us, unless you aren't willing to explore what you believe and why you believe it?


More from Daniel C. Dennett

You're at a concert, awestruck and breathless, listening to your favorite musicians on their farewell tour, and the sweet music is lifting you, carrying you away to another place... and then somebody's cell phone starts ringing! Breaking the spell. Hateful, vile, inexcusable. This inconsiderate jerk has ruined the concert for you, stolen a precious moment that can never be recovered. How evil it is to break somebody's spell! I don't want to be that person with the cell phone, and I am well aware that I will seem to many people to be courting just that fate by embarking on this book.

This problem is that there are good spells and then there are bad spells. If only some timely phone call could have interrupted the proceedings at Jonestown in Guyana in 1978, when the lunatic Jim Jones was ordering his hundreds of spellbound followers to commit suicide! If only we could have broken the spell that enticed the Japanese cult Aum Shinrikyo to release sarin gas in a Tokyo subway killing a dozen people and injuring thousands more! If only we could figure out some way today to break the spell that lures thousands of poor young Muslim boys into fanatical madrassahs where they are prepared for a life of murderous martyrdom instead of being taught about the modern world, about democracy and history and science! If only we could break the spell that convinces some of our fellow citizens that they are commanded by God to bomb abortion clinics!

Religious cults and political fanatics are not the only casters of evil spells today. Think of the people who are addicted to drugs, or gambling, or alcohol, or child pornography. They need all the help they can get, and I doubt if anybody is inclined to throw a protective mantle around these entranced ones and admonish, "Shhh! Don't break the spell!" And it may be that the best way to break these bad spells is to introduce the spellbound to a good spell, a god spell, a gospel. It may be, and it may not. We should try to find out. ...

Eventually, we must arrive at questions about ultimate values, and no factual investigation could answer them. Instead, we can do no better than to sit down and reason together, a political process of mutual persuasion and education that we can try to conduct in good faith. But in order to do that we have to know what we are choosing between, and we need to have a clear account of the reasons that can be offered for and against the different visions of the participants. Those who refuse to participate (because they already know the answers in their hearts) are, from the point of view of the rest of us, part of the problem. Instead of being participants in our democratic effort to find agreement among our fellow human beings, they place themselves in the inventory of obstacles to be dealt with, one way or another. As with El Nino and global warming, there is no point in trying to argue with them, but every reason to study them assiduously, whether they like it or not. They may change their minds and rejoin our political congregation, and assist us in the exploration of the grounds for their attitudes and practices, but whether or not they do, it behooves the rest of us to learn everything we can about them, for they put at risk what we hold dear.

[aumbrellaforainydays]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

ah, 'clouded'

another undefined & unquantifiable / unmeasurable quality-term
with a implied negative connotation
i.e. better to be 'clear' than 'clouded', right ?
whatever the f@ck that means.

words and numbers are just conceptions of a reality we havent yet known to communicate in a more 'intuitive' way. religions have done this to people's perceptions and still do today, telling people through words that this is the way it ought to be, when really there has to exist a more 'primal' way of perceiving reality. they are just representations that our consciousness believes is separate from it. and that it is the I and the I is now under the control of this Ego, who must see things as opposed or different or separate or detached. but arent we all from the same substance, does science deduce life to molecules, atoms, quarks, strings.... until what? for what really exists at the end of the rabbit hole of self-inquiry? nothingness.