Manipulating humidity and Hua-Gu formation for cubiues

[BuckarooBanzai]

Okay, so my FOAF came home to find this odd looking fellow:

(click a picture to see the larger image)
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IMG_0008.JPG

I kind of like him. He flesh is dense and "old" looking. The deep creases in the cap look like wrinkles and the hardened quality of the usually warm golden cap coloration is interesting. The stipe almost looks like it has a beard, with all the peeled back flappy areas.

According to my friend, this guy is growing out of a pint jar about 1/3 full of popcorn/castings/verm, cased top and bottom with plain verm, innoculated with clone water. 1/4inch of coconut fiber on top (my friend likes chewing bits of coconut fiber a LOT more than chewing verm flakes). The jar was throughly drenched with water and placed in an experimental terrarium 9 days ago. My friend was away while this fruit developed, so he can't say if these qualities were present from pin. There is only one (huge) fruit, so he can't say what this jar might do with other bodies. He also can't really say how the terrarium conditions might have fluctuated recently, though it seems nice for a case now (%85-%90 rH).

Not having watched these very different results develop from a clone source has my friend VERY FRUSTRATED. He is strongly considering a change in his line of work to be closer to his experiments. He is VERY mad that he put the experimental jar in the experimental terrarium. Two huge unknowns and no observation record! Bad amateur scientist! POOR METHOD!!!

So, for those of you who have seen a few of these things, PLEASE TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK...

Is this fruit showing evidence of too much water in the casing or too little? Is this too much humidity in the terrarium or too little? Do you think the stem grew that way or "folded" from the weight of the cap (plenty of space around/above it)?

Is it odd that there is no bluing around all those cracks and exposed internal flesh? Is this an indication of lessened potency?

My friend is intrigued by this shroom. He has been staring at it for quite a while now. It's weird looking, but it's real freakin' big (look at that last pic, when this sucker opens fully, it's going to be about the size of the wide mouth pint it's growing from).

Should these results be persued or is this an "error?" My friend craves your input, Mycotopians!!!

DAMN I LOVE MYCOLOGY.

[BuckarooBanzai]

My friend thought some gill shots might help identify the weirdness and he discovered that this fellow has just pretty recently torn his veil and has some excellent photographic potential.

Here are two shots of torn veil, still barely holding on to the stipe.

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I love the way the veil looks. It reminds me of Giger's biomechanical transitions. Gelatinous and flesh like, especially as it tears.

In these next three, you can see spores darkening the gills inside and at the edges, but not yet completely covering the gill structures. Maturity is almost here!

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There doesn't appear to be any structural oddness to the gills/underside, though. No creases or strange coloration to speak of.

[Dank Side Of The Shroom]

wtf. no idea but it sure looks kewl.

[MurCurY]

what strain is that supposed to be?

Looks like scaling. This happens when conditions become to dry. Dry air can cause this.

[BuckarooBanzai]

My friend says that these are Hillbilly's. My friend has been told that they are one generation away from wild. My friend has seen some markedly different physical features from cake to cake when grown from spores. He says there is even a decent amount of variety when using cloned tissue. According to Hillbilly, this is to be expected and is also his experience.

According to my friend, this is cloned from a fruit that was bioassayed and judged extra primo good. It was, in fact, a really big fruit that was assayed by two seperate people, both of whom offered a hearty thumbs up. It is definitely a cubie.

So, Dial8, you are thinking dry air? My friend thought dry conditions, because the flesh has a shriveled/dessicated look. Also, it is very hard/dense to the touch. But the stipe has all those brown striations, which my friend thought was associated with too much moisture. Maybe it's substrate is wet, but the air is dry?

If this is scaling, would that be from air that was continuously a little dry (bad terrarium design) or one long blast of really dry air (good terrarium, bad gardner left lid off)?

It is probably due to a continuous supply of somewhat dry air. This would not be caused by one blast.

[anticheffy]

Growth was slowed for some reason (humidity low, or temp problems) at some point in the lil guys life, that allowed the skin of the cap to dry and toughen up. Then growth took off again and caused the skin to split like that.

In my opinion, they look similar to, but not the way an overly dry fruitbody would look. A dry fruit will have a cracked cap, but not that peeling along the stipe. I'd suspect bacteria or some virus perhaps. It doesn't look right that's for sure. If it were mine, I'd toss it out.
RR

The stipe does look awfully weird. It is definitely a little different than most scaling symptoms.

Originally Posted by Rodger

In my opinion, they look similar to, but not the way an overly dry fruitbody would look. A dry fruit will have a cracked cap, but not that peeling along the stipe. I'd suspect bacteria or some virus perhaps. It doesn't look right that's for sure. If it were mine, I'd toss it out.
RR

[Hippie3]

looks to me like it suffered alternating periods of dry then wet

[spacecowboy]

...this type of growth is highly sought after by Shiitake growers.

Background information:

Mushroom Growers Handbook 2, p84 (p12 of PDF)

[BuckarooBanzai]

Hua-gu. Interesting. That is what it looks like...

Post autopsy update:

External tissues were VERY dry to the touch and had almost a styrofoam consistency. The stem looks and feels partially dessicated. It is "crisp" when bent, breaking pretty cleanly. Internal tissues are VERY dense and "styrofoam" like. Very little color/consistency variance in the stem. No hollow center, totally solid all the way through.

The undersides of the stem where it bent were gnarled and knotted, almost like weeping willow bark.

There was almost no bluing noted during or after the autopsy. What little coloring appeared is almost greenish and very faint. The gills are very dark with spores and are the only seemingly normal feature of the fruit body.

This is an interesting mushie and I'm letting the jar continue (in isolation) but I don't think I'll be bioassaying this fruit. Your thoughts?

Possibly Verticillium.
RR

[spacecowboy]

Originally Posted by Rodger

Possibly Verticillium.
RR

I don't think so...

http://mushgrowinfo.cas.psu.edu/Rece...rtsymptoms.htm

...seems more like an environmental cause then a pest or disease.

[slp]

I have observed this condition in the wild. Only during the winter months. We have always referred to them as "Crackly Tops". They dry really hard, almost like a piece of hard sugar. They appear to have much more dense biomass, and do not cumble up easy like others do after dried. And yes, they were prized as being very potent. There fruiting always occured during colder temperatures. It was from these very same "Crackly Tops" I come up with our "Polar" version of Ps. cubensis, some 25 years ago. Maybe I missed it, but I did not see where any temps were given. Did they get cold? I believe that if the strain is able to fruit in cold temps, the slower growth allows for much more biomass in the same area. Meaning, they might just be more potent because you are eating up to twice the normal amount shroom for shroom. But if weighed out, you will see just one Crackly Top weighs as much as two same sized normal shrooms. slp/fmrc

[BuckarooBanzai]

FMRC, your comments intrigue. I was away during the fruit's development and it was in a totally experimental environment (I really wasn't expecting anything from that jar).

Additional study oand examination of the environment over the last three days has shown some very interesting things.

As it turns out, the closet the tub was sitting in is on a patched hole in the floorboard. It is basically sitting with one layer of plywood between it and the crawl space. There is no temperature control in the tub. Temperatures in this tub are, as a result, highly variable. I got a night time low of 58F and a daytime high of 71F. Average temps are in the 65-68F range.

Since the tub is humidified only by Perlite evaporation, RH varys over a pretty wide range as well. Low RH measured was %72 and hight was %86.

What really blew me away about FMRC's comment was that they "they dry really hard, almost like a piece of hard sugar." The dried pieces of this cap are totally different from all it's clone brothers. It's almost like Marzipan! The cap was still very heavy when dried. 16g.

As a responsible scientist, I believe I, shall have to assay this fruit personally.

FMRC - thanks for your input!

[BuckarooBanzai]

Okay, this is definitely a "problem" I need to try and reproduce.

Careful weighing and bioassay of this fruit was quite suprising. It is markedly more potent than it's clone siblings. I'm not talking 3 or 4 times as potent, but it is noticably stronger. Some placebo effect can certainly be credited here, because greater potency was hoped for/expected.

Placebo doesn't explain my partner assayists opinion, though. She was given no information about a possibility for increased potency. Her opinions matched mine, though. Gram for gram, this "Crackly Top" is stronger than the other fruits she has sampled.

Also, the flesh has a much milder taste, even dried and powdered. I wish I had sampled a tad, just for taste, when it was still fresh.

We are doubting any heavy "bad" bacterial load, because no additional stomach or GI upset was noticed. If either of us begins to turn yellow or glow, we shall certainly report it!

So, not only is the flesh extra weighty it seems to have extra psilly as well. After that cap was fully dried, it was hard as a rock. It took significantly longer for the coffee grinder to powder it. I swear, it was like a marzipan mushroom.

Going back over his notes, my FOAF realized that this jar is one of the tests of Stevia leaf he had basically forgotten about during his road trip. That may have something to do with the potency bump as well.

Your comments are greatly appreciated.

[spacecowboy]

Formation from low humidity and cold tempeature with flutuation in temperature and humidity.

During the formation of shiitake basidiocarps (fruiting bodies), under winter or winter-like conditions, when young buttons reach 2-3cm in diameter, dry air and cold temperatures force pilial (cap) surface into dormancy. In such an adverse environment with drastic diurnal fluctuations of both temperature and humidity, a protective dry surface is formed on the young mushroom cap. Nonetheless, the inner portion continues to grow using water avalible from the substrate. When favorable growth conditions return, the surface grows at a retarded rate, while the inner portion grows at a normal pace. Under these conditions, shiitake mushroom buttons grow with alteration in dormacy and growth, and a considerable differential in the growth rate between the surface and inner portion. In time, the rapid growth of the inner portion raptures the mushroom surface, producing a flower-like cracking pattern on the cap surface. The name, hua-gu means flower (hua) mushroom (gu) in Chinnese.

[BuckarooBanzai]

And the winner is: Hua-gu brought on by a drop in humidity/temp shortly after the pin is about an inch to inch and a half tall.

Here is some "induced" hua-gu on only part of the fruit in a case. Humidity/temp was dropped for 12 hours about 48 hours after the first pin showed up. The larger fruit and smaller fruit weren't affected, but the ones that were right in that "just about to go big" stage showed the phenomena:

http://forums.mycotopia.net/attachme...0&d=1138042346
http://forums.mycotopia.net/attachme...1&d=1138042346

Here is a shot of the whole case, you can see the smaller and larger bodies that were unaffected.

http://forums.mycotopia.net/attachme...9&d=1138042076
http://forums.mycotopia.net/attachme...2&d=1138042346

Pretty interesting phenomena. I believe it shall prove useful to know how to do this when the Shitake man comes a calling...

[BuckarooBanzai]

I forgot to note, the drop was from RH %85-90 to RH %30-40 and temperature from F72-76 to F60-65.

Also, this is the grow log for that case:

http://forums.mycotopia.net/showthread.php?t=7057 (Hillbilly clone bulk - growlog -Polyacrylamide gel/water crystals)

[BuckarooBanzai]

Okay, my FOAF is officially having fun playing with "crackling" these caps. Here is his best effort so far:

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That's a little bitty half pint that was a popcorn/coir/castings/poly experiment that wasn't even half full of substrate. The cake was completely covered with polyacrylamide so it could come out it out of the fruiting evironment and sit it on the windowsill without drying out the cake itself. It was put in full sunlight and dry air (40%RH), for two 4 hour stretches. Once when the pins were about 1/4 inch tall, and again as the veils looked just about to tear.

I think that more, shorter cycles of dry/moist air would cause more delicate and "Shitake like" Hua-Gu, but that's just speculation.

Here is another cool thing about the Hua-Gu:

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They are about half dried at the time of harvest!

[Fester Addams]

did they also prove more potent?

[danfromabove]

they sure look pretty... that would be cool if you could consistently produce them. your own strain!

[BuckarooBanzai]

Sadly, Fester, three more tests resulted in one "maybe better" and two "damned good but I don't know about better" results. I think they may be a tad better, but I'm WAY prejudiced in their favor. I do know they taste a little better. I can say that for certain. Other than that, I'm afraid my initial reports might have been a good bit placebo effect. This part of why "real scientists" test and re-test before publishing. Of course, I'm not out to try and impress anybody...

It's not a strain/genetic thing, though. I suspect just about any fast growing mushroom would do about the same thing. It's totally an environmental effect. Check out FOAF's grow log:

http://forums.mycotopia.net/attachme...3&d=1138415383
http://forums.mycotopia.net/attachme...4&d=1138415383

That casing is from clone material and produced both Hua-Gu and normal caps. It's all about the humidity variance.

Apparently, when the air dries out massively for a couple of hours, the top layer of cells on the cap either dies or is stunted. Then, as the cap grows, the top layer doesn't grow as fast, so it splits apart. The tissue inside is still growing normally, so the split only goes so deep.

Then again, I ain't no mycologist and that's just what I think is happening. It is very reproducable, though, which is why I suspect this is the case.

[python]

i am agreed with RR, looks like a little "verticilium" and also scaling like dial 8 said...


i would try to keep humidity up for scaling

and you must increase your cleanliness/clean procedure to rid your grows of verticilium........verticilium is a harmless bacteria that affects the shrooms, not us.........but you still dont want it...


good luck

[spacecowboy]

I was taking a closer look at the stem too, and it does seem like that of verticulum, but the cracked cap looks more like it is due to the low humidity.

Here is more information on mold/fungus verticulum (a.k.a. Dry Bubble):

http://mushgrowinfo.cas.psu.edu/Vert...y%20Bubble.htm

[BuckarooBanzai]

Do you think the newest fruits' stems are showing verticilium? Old stem (old jar tek) on top, new stem, new TEK on bottom. Sorry FOAF didn't get a better closeup shot of the new caps.






The stipes are still a little "flappy" but they are different than the first one. The color stirations aren't nearly as bad.

Is verticilium considered a beneficial bacteria? I hydrate with EarthJuice/castings tea and it's a soup of different things (only some of which I can identify).

[python]

yes they do, and by how small that cake shrunk it is evident your humidity is at like 10%, when in fact you want it near 100% for cakes...........


redo the project....be much much cleaner in procedure, learn what a terrarium is and use one.......next grow should be better.........

personally i wouldnt even want to touch that shroom let alone try to eat it......nasty


but greener pastures lie ahead friend.............

[spacecowboy]

Buckaroo is using low humidity to get the Hua Gu cap formations.

Personally, I think that the pealing stems are from the low humidity too, however, the verticilium spreads via spores. So if you do have a touch of the verticilium it could either be already floating in the air, or coming from the EarthJuice/castings tea.

Do you sterilize the tea before using it to dunk?

[python]

and no verticillium is not considered beneficial........it will infest and destroy crops...........

the link above on verticillium that spacecowboy posted is kinda weak.........i rarely see verticillium in a big bubble form..........almost always stripes and knarly ,twisted, split stems, with small bubbly formations, and with upward curling caps etc.....

Vert. wont hurt ya but i only eat shrooms that look good enough to be in a grocery store.......

[BuckarooBanzai]

Python, dude, I'm sorry. This is way unclear. I wish I could edit the title of this thread. What is causing this is not a mystery at all any more. My FOAF is doing this on purpose, intentionally drying the mushies to make them crackle and get weird looking. FOAF was actually wondering about maybe introducing the verticillium if it would intensify the effect.

That one shrivled little cake and fungus grouping from above was an experiment to see just how much dry air a cake could survive (after pinning, but before growth stopped) and still grow a mushroom. It totally shriveled the cake, but made even better looking crackling. The shroomies look almost like wood cuts and they feel like styrofoam. They dry really hard and almost the same looking as when they were alive. It is an interesting phenomena to watch, because they develop so damned fast.

ALL these pics are from the same clone stock, just different conditions growing up.

FOAF is very proud of this, because he got part of the fruit to crackle while part did not in the same flush. The crackling isn't any where near the best, though. Experiments continue...



This is another good pic, but not as good as that one. Only part of the flush is affected. This was the first experiment in doing this selectively and totally on purpose. Try and ignore the rolled over bag/rolled over fruit and guess how it was acomplished...



grow log: http://forums.mycotopia.net/showthread.php?t=7057 (Hillbilly clone bulk - growlog -Polyacrylamide gel/water crystals)

FOAF is very sold on a proper terrarium design. He just stumbled on this crackling thing and is having fun playing with it. He has another tub where the conditions are kept proper throughout the mushie's life cycle that gifted him with this:



Grow log of the above pics: http://forums.mycotopia.net/showthread.php?t=7057 (Hillbilly clone bulk - growlog -Polyacrylamide gel/water crystals)

My FOAF is exposing the musies to very dry (%40-%50 RH) air for varying periods of time when they are certain size. FOAF thinks he is severly stunting/killing the pellicle. It seems very sensitive.

FOAF thinks this may be why misting can cause pins to abort. FOAF thinks of this as the same thing, in reverse. Warm dry air instead of too much moisture (but not on pins!), causing damage to the outer skin surface.

Most of the time, the mushies are at %80-%90 RH, in a proper terrarium with good air exchange and light. Sorry for the confusion. IS it possible to have a mod change a thread title? Maybe to "Hua-Gu Psillys" or "Screwing with humidity does this.." or something like that?

[python]

well ok, but the info i provided is still good info........

[reverend trips]

That a nice biggun you got there Buck

[BuckarooBanzai]

Thanks for the compliment, Reverend! Coming from the master of big'ums himself, that's high praise indeed.

I'll put a dry picture up too. Without seeing that stem, the cap isn't as impressive. I'm going to save the dry stem for clone material tests in a year or so.

Here is my FOAF's latest Hua-Gu. This one got the "one long blast" of dry air treatment. The cracking isn't as detailed as the one above, but they are deeper. I like the way the split flesh looks.

hua-gu.jpg

[BuckarooBanzai]

Most recent Hua-Gu porn from Hillbilly case:

http://forums.mycotopia.net/attachme...9&d=1139878511
http://forums.mycotopia.net/attachme...0&d=1139878511
http://forums.mycotopia.net/attachme...1&d=1139878511
http://forums.mycotopia.net/attachme...3&d=1139878511



This is most assuredly a function of environment and not the strain. Here is a B+ done Hua-Gu style:

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This is my FOAF's favorite result so far. The mushroom tissue looks like wood...

[doobydoobydoo]

Originally Posted by BuckarooBanzai

Python, dude, I'm sorry. This is way unclear. I wish I could edit the title of this thread.

That can be done, whatcha want it edited to?

[doobydoobydoo]

Oh, also, very cool! I love to see odd experiments and results like this. Very nice.



Experimenting is how we learn and discover.

[BuckarooBanzai]

DoobyDoobyDoo, a thread title edit would be a most appreciated thing!

How about: "Manipulating humidity and Hua-Gu formation"

Maybe also stick a note at the top indicating that the cause is explained later in the thread. Thanks for the extra effort, by the way! I'm a stickler for labeling and organizing and that title was really bugging me...

I'm glad you like it the Hua-Gu fruits, by the way. FOAF is having a real blast messing with these guys and then watching them grow. The fruit body development is so fast that the instant gratification factor is very high.

Also, it's got a weird Bonsai kind of vibe because of all the extra hands on work and examination that goes on. Very theraputic. Nice for focus. And it's a great excuse to look at them really frequently...

FOAF is a strong believer in attention to plants leading to superior production. FOAF firmly believes that part of this phenomena is due directly to the mushrooms wanting to make him happy and produce for him.

Oh, and here's a high-res shot that shows some really neat detail:

hi-res hua-gu (shrunk).JPG

FOAF really digs those textures. Really weird looking stuff. Hard and fluffy at the same time. Would you ever guess it was a closeup of a mushroom?

[spacecowboy]

Is it almost time for a detailed "BuckarooBanzai Hua-Gu Tek" yet???

Sounds like you have most of the details ironed out, to the point where it only takes a persons practice and patience before getting beautiful Hua-Gu fruits like the ones you have been posting lately.

[BuckarooBanzai]

Spacecowboy, I will do a write up once I'm a little more certain about a few things. These are just the best of the best pics. There are others that aren't so great and I'm not 100% certain why that is. Once I'm certain, I promise, I'll publish.

In the meantime, here is some B+ Hua-Gu porn to tide you over. It's interesting how differently the B+ caps are responding to basically the same treatment. The coloration is much richer and the cracking is much more lacey and delicate. The B+ has a much more wood-like appearance than the Hillbilly.

IMG_0003.JPG IMG_0006.JPG IMG_0008.JPG
IMG_0010.JPG IMG_0013.JPG IMG_0015.JPG
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What do you guys think? These are FOAFs favorites so far...

[spacecowboy]

I think they are awsome, they look like shiitakes.

Mushworld link:
http://mushworld.com/oversea/view.as...=5120&vid=5554

[Hippie3]

interesting curiosity
but is it beneficial,
other than for aesthetic reasons ?
for example, do the cakes yield more total weight ?

[BuckarooBanzai]

Any benefit other than aesthetic is zero. Numerous potency studies at this point have led to the conclusion that there is zero boost. A couple of them have been strong reminders of the wonder of placebo, though. Tell somebody it's special (or have it look different) and watch out.

Almost all the adult fruit bodies done like this have been casings. The only cake experiment had to be buried in polyacrylamide in order to produce fruit. All the dry air makes working with straight cakes pretty impracticle.

Also, it's way more work for less output. Way more hands on and twiddling and taking trays out and playing with fans...

It's got an interesting Bonsai/aesthetic vibe, but there is no production/potency boost whatsoever. Well, placebo and maybe some additional personal connection because of the hands on, but that's really just aesthetics again.

FOAF feels that the extra time with his little buddies is a definite set booster, but he's a big fan of esoteric considerations like meditating with them as they mature. Different strokes...

[spacecowboy]

You had mentioned earlier that it did away with the unpalatable taste and made them more solid, is that still the case?

[BuckarooBanzai]

True, the taste isn't as bad. I did neglect to mention that. If you find mushrooms totally foul, it probably wouldn't be much of a difference. FOAF's wife won't eat anything that hasn't been sealed in a gel-cap, Hua-Gu or not. FOAF, who prefers to eat them fresh and doesn't really find them foul at all, finds these to be notably better. It's a matter of degrees, not orders of magnitude.

The fruit is more dense, but there is no more psilly per gram than in the non-dense variety. It can be decieving if you chow by eye, especially when fresh, but the scale never lies. I can see this phenomena in the wild, without a scale, leading to some very tall tales. "They looked so weird and were like styrofoam and one little cap just did me in..."

They are decidely more solid, averaging 6%-8% less water than standard fuit, so they stand up a little better to rough treatment, but they still need proper dehydration for term storage. One cool thing is, since they are partially dried to begin with, they shrivel less after going through the dehydrator. Fresh/dried look almost the same.

The density thing is a bit of a deception, though, because caps not treated this way will get larger overall.

I'm not trying to trumpet any kind of net gain here, as, in fact, there does appear to be a slight net deficit.