Hillbilly clone bulk - growlog -Polyacrylamide gel/water crystals

[BuckarooBanzai]

Strain: Hillbilly, clone water inoculation
Incubation temps: 82-84F
Cake substrate: Mycrotopia mix and 5% hydrated polyacrylamide gel
Bulk substrate: 40% worm castings, 40% coconut fiber, 20% hydrated polyacrylamide gel with a goodly sprinkling of lime
Casing: 70% coconut fiber, 30% hydrated polyacrylamide gel
Fruiting environment: 72-74F, 82%-90% RH, 1 air exchange/hour

Cake run: 11 days
Spawn run: 7 days
Post casing: 1 day
Primordia formation: after 6 days in fruiting environment
First pins: 25 days after inoculation
These pics: 26 days after inoculation

Everything (cakes, substrate, casing) was hydrated with EarthJuice. The mix was EJ grow, microblast and catalyst, mixed according to the standard label directions for hydroponic use and brewed at 70-75F with continuous aeration for 72 hours.

Everything (cakes, substrate, casing and tools that touched them) were pressure cooked at 15psi for 90 minutes. The Rubbermaid casing container was run through the dishwasher before use. All work was done in a HEPA laminar workflow station.

Four fully colonized ½ pint Mycrotopia cakes were crumbled in a gallon Ziploc bag. The crumbled cakes were then mixed with 1/2 gallon of bulk substrate in a Rubbermaid food storage container. The container’s lid, which had five ¼ inch holes drilled in it and filtered with tyvek, was replaced and the container was incubated until fully run. ¾ inch of casing material was applied and it was incubated another 24 hours. The Rubbermaid lid was removed and the casing was placed in the fruiting environment.

The fruiting environment was a 22 gallon Rubbermaid tub humidified by a layer of 2 inches Perlite floating on 3 inches of water. Air exchange was maintained by a high output aquarium pump that bubbled up through the water/Perlite. Temperatures were maintained with a submersible aquarium heater under the Perlite. The Perlite was kept sterile via the addition of ½ cup liquid bleach every 14 days. Water in the tub was topped up with tap every 28 days. The air inside the environment was circulated continuously by two 12v 180mm computer fans in opposing corners of the tub. Light is provided by a fluorescent strip light outside the environment on a 12 on/12 off cycle. The light shines through a glass cutting board with a “pebbly” non-stick side and a slick side. The pebbly side is facing down to better distribute the light.

The casing was misted very lightly with a pressure atomizer once per day. The sides of the Rubbermaid container were shielded from light with duct tape and aluminum foil.

Here is the mycoporn…

This is the whole case, 26 days after inoculation:

whole casing.jpg

This is the first group of pins that showed up on the morning of day 25:

first pin group.jpg

These are the pins that showed up this morning:

morning.jpg

These are the stragglers:

stragglers.jpg

[Lazlo]

Looks good Buck. Nice!

Very nice, bb! I can't wait to see them full grown.

Nice growlog BB!!!!!!!!
The fruits are looking great! Can't wait to see more

[BuckarooBanzai]

Well, I must say that my FOAF is very pleased with the results of this case on day 28. Never trust the initial pinset with Hillbilly's. They just keep putting out babies...

IMG_0048.JPG IMG_0056.JPG IMG_0055.JPG

Three important (to my FOAF) experiments are proven by this success. Most importantly, the polyacrylamide crystals worked great in the casing and the bulk substrate. No more nibbling on bits of freakin' vermiculite. YAY! No more wondering if it's moist enough. YAY! No more chance of overwatering at all (within reason). YAY!

Second, my FOAF is able to "induce" the Hua-gu phenomena. As you can see, only a couple of the caps in the flush have the "crackly" appearance:

IMG_0053.JPG IMG_0054.JPG

Third, using the EarthJuice to hydrate everything didn't make for "too hot" of a mix, which was my FOAF's biggest fear. It seems to have worked quite nicely, in fact. Initial experiments also show a very low tendency to contaminate, but that's still kind of iffy.

The interesting question which remains is how bioassay will demonstrate potency in the cracklies. My FOAF's previous accidental crackly top proved to have a, seemingly, elevated potency level. My FOAF will single blind test these with his partner to see if she detects any difference. Here's hoping...

So, totally cool results. My FOAF can make cracklies if he wants (should prove useful when he starts screwing around with Shitake) and he can quit dealing with this much hated vermiculite. Mr. Hippie can mess with that stuff when he makes up his wonderous Mycrotopia substrate, but my FOAF can toss it out the window.

YAY!!!

Oh, and here is one interesting mutation. This fellow apparently decided he didn't have enough gills on the bottom and grew some on top! It even looks like they are going to sporulate...

IMG_0051.JPG

those hillbillys sure are meaty
lookin....

[BuckarooBanzai]

Very dense tissue. I haven't seen a hollow stem yet. An excellent strain to experiment with!

[spacecowboy]

So would you say the dense tissue is a result of the hau-gu formation, or the strain itself?

If so, then how does the tissue consistancy of the normal ones compare to the hua-gu ones?

[BuckarooBanzai]

Hua-gu fruits are MUCH denser. Already feeling styrofoamy and partially dried. They are smaller, though and I don't think they will print as well. If my FOAF hadn't "hua-gu"ed them, they would be a good bit larger, based on their starting size, so density is probably a trade off here.

The lack of hollow stems is, my FOAF thinks, based on the strain. He hasn't seen any hollow stems in any fruits so far (large, small, or hua-gued).

The almost total lack of bluing in the hua-gu fruit was again noticed, however, during harvest. The brown stirations and "flapping" on the stem was noted again, as well.

The caps are printing, but my FOAF sent me this picture of the stem harvest. No idea on weight...

IMG_0063.JPG

Not bad for less than 30 days!

The case is dunking currently. This is another advantage to using the polyacrylamide crystals. 30 minutes in warm water should totally re-hydrate them. No need to go over-night. Here's hoping for a nice second flush!

[BuckarooBanzai]

Casing was drained fully and additional casing material was added to fill in the 1/2 inch it shrank from the edges. A fork was used to gently tamp the material in spread a very thin and uneven layer of new casing across the top.

Please note, this isn't really "true" casing, because it's a nutrient source. The coir and polyacrylamide were hydrated with EarthJuice.

My FOAF is wondering if anybody else here works with polyacrylamide?

[Lazlo]

No I haven't. What is this product polyacrylamide exactly? Your cat looks confused by the way! lol!

[Stenciler]

Originally Posted by Lazlo

Your cat looks confused by the way! lol!

so does yours , laz

[BuckarooBanzai]

Mr. Kitty doesn't care for flash photography! He loves that ratty chair, though...

Polyacrylamide gel is more commonly known as water crystals. Basically, just chunks of polymer that hydrate with water and then look a little like jello. They are used in agriculture because they swell up massively with water then release it as the environment dries. They never really get "moist" but they will continously provide moisture to soil/sub over time. I know about them well from other hobbies growing things...

I'm using it to replace the vermiculite as a my water source in the substrate and casing. It is much harder to over water the poly.

[Hippie3]

poly crystals are MUCH more expensive than verm,
there is the rub, aye.

[BuckarooBanzai]

I don't know about that price thing.

You can get a pound of poly for $15. That hydrates to far more volume than $15 worth of verm. And it's almost impossible to overwater/overmist poly.

[Hippie3]

you're paying too much for verm. then,
i get mine at
$15 for 4 cubic feet.

[Hippie3]

archive material

[BuckarooBanzai]

Holy CRAP that is cheaper than what I'm paying! 1 bag of Verm costs me $9! No wonder your Mycrotopia prices are so good...do you buy it by the truckload???

Two thumbs up on the new cake recipe, by the way. My FOAF is absolutely loving it...

[Hippie3]

i get mine at a feed/garden store in town.
hoffman's horticultural medium grade verm.

[BuckarooBanzai]

Houston, we've got pins. Repeat, we have got pins!

This is officially the second flush of my FOAF's first attempt at casing. Thanks, Mycotopia, for making these pictures possible!!! Oddly, these are popping up in completely different areas than the first flush. My FOAF wonders why the myc decided these areas were primo this time when it didn't like them last time...

second flush closeup.jpg second flush.jpg

A question for those of you who have been doing this for a while: do you still run home to see what has popped up while you were gone? Does seeing that first pin ever get old? Man, I hope not. This is almost better than sex! Not as good as sex WITH these, but damned close...

Here is a pic of my FOAF's second case and pretty definitive proof that it is humidity (not temperature) variance that causes the Hua Gu phenomena.

hua gu.jpg another case.jpg

The edge fruits were under the edge of the spawn bag (rolled over). They got the same temperature variance but kept high humidity because of the bag. You'll notice that there are two fruits roughly the same size, but one is Hua Gued and one is normal. Everything that got dry went crackly, everything that stayed moist did not.

Results were mixed on the potency rise thing, though. A double blind bio assay resulted in results that conflicted with the first series. Too bad, more research will have to be done!

Here is a pic of an "upside down" cake. It flushed twice normally, then it was flipped it over and moist poly placed under/above. My FOAF was afraid that the poly wouldn't allow enough air exchange to fruit like this, but it does! Yay poly!

poly case.jpg

Here is my FOAF's best Hua Gu fruit so far. I really dig the symetrical crackles on this one. This fruit got 12 hours of dry air just as it looked like the veil was about to tear.

IMG_0020.JPG

Again, from the heart of my bottom, thank you all so much for this new skill. You are all so wonderful for sharing this openly with anyone who wants to learn.

If my friends weren't stupid enough to believe I had found them in the wild...man, NOBODY believes you can grow these at home! The myth of them being "impossible to grow" is more pernicious than "blue star tattoos" and "strychnine in acid." The amount of disinformation in the drug community staggers the imagination.

Next up: Albinos, baby!

[golly]

that is a wild pic of the cracked cap - looks like a carved wooden flower....
I did experiment with polymer crystals last year and found it was best not to fully expand them, as the trays ended up getting too wet ...It seems that after a short time in the substrate they can no longer hold as much h2o ...
So then i just hydrated to about 50% and seemed to work better -but still not enough of a difference production-wise to justify their use imo..your crystals may be different though.... Great growlog btw....

[BuckarooBanzai]

You are TOTALLY right about under hydrating the poly. That makes overwatering later almost impossible.

I just hate the freakin' vermiculite. HATE IT. That grit in my mouth....YECCH.

[Hippie3]

if you hate verm
switch to straight grain/straw,
about as clean as it gets.

[BuckarooBanzai]

Day two of second flush update. It's so freakin' cool how fast these suckers pop up!

IMG_0013.JPG IMG_0014.JPG

Here are some pics of the second casing's first flush. The term flush is really kind of a misnomer with Hillbilly's. You'll notice in these that there are some that are nearly mature whereas others are still just babies. Hillbilly's are really more of a continuous production fungi than a "flusher." If you decide to work with HBs, DON'T be disappointed by the initial pinset! They'll just keep growing and growing and growing...

IMG_0003.JPG IMG_0008.JPG
IMG_0002.JPG IMG_0007.JPG

You can tell these guys are still close to wild. This is a clone innoculation and still there is massive variance from fruit to fruit. Here's two nice nipple caps:

IMG_0005.JPG IMG_0010.JPG

In this pic, you can see nice brown caps right next to very pale caps.

IMG_0009.JPG

And, finally, here's a nice Hua Gued fruit that is nearly mature.

IMG_0004.JPG

Reports are in on the first flush. My FOAF reports 62g dry! These will be powdered and encapsulated for our guests (tonight is his wife's birthday party) who don't like the taste of freshies.

Appetizers tonight will be ganja/kava/amanita cookies. This will be followed by all the freshies anybody wants. This will be followed by a fresh MJ salad with a kava/raspberry vinagrette (sp?). The main course will be pork tenderloin medallions, slow cooked in garlic/olive oil/ganja butter. Desert will be angel food cake drizzled with mushie infused chocolate. The super freaks in the group who are still looking for more will be vaporizing Salvinorin A. Lamb's Bread joints/bongs will be circulating all night (all the ganja butter for this evening was made from Lamb's Bread). A small chunk of Champagne water hash will precede desert.

Anybody want to come to dinner?

[BuckarooBanzai]

Would straw work in little cases like this? How would you mash 'em down to get a flat surface? FOAF's next project will probably be something very similar to Freaky's "Straw - Small & Simple" thread. Unfortunately, he didn't see that thread until after these two cases were built...

The size of the straw logs my FOAF has seen kind of intimidate him. He wants to start small and then build. Basically, he wants to learn cakes, then casings and finally, straw. He feels that over the years, as new and different strains are experimented with, knowing how to do all three formats will serve him well.

Would you, perhaps, suggest a different route?

[Hippie3]

straw nuggets i.e. mini-logs
see
http://forums.mycotopia.net/showthre...ghlight=nugget (straw nuggets :))

[BuckarooBanzai]

DUDE! Thanks for that link...don't know how I missed this TEK. SO much good stuff on this board...think my FOAF will be ordering one of those straw bales from Zen...I just hate the verm grit so much...

[BuckarooBanzai]

2nd casing harvest:

IMG_0004.JPG

I don't know the total wet weight, 'cause my scale only goes to 500g and I've already been nibbling and don't feel like doing any math.

Thanks, Mycotopia!!!

Here is a nice cluster from that harvest:

IMG_0007.JPG

Interestingly, this case was from clone water of a single big'un. Didn't seem to stop it from forming clusters a bit...

Have a good evening, folks...Banzai out...

[BuckarooBanzai]

Here are the side pins and aborts from the second casing:

IMG_0022.JPG

Harvest was nicer than first thought!

Here is the first case, just roaring along:

IMG_0023.JPG IMG_0026.JPG
IMG_0028.JPG IMG_0029.JPG

FOAF had his first experience with 5g of fresh aborts. Woof. Nice stuff. Stronger and...different. More colorful/brighter. This was unexpected, but very nice.

[BuckarooBanzai]

Holy crap. My FOAF dunked and recased the second tray yesterday afternoon. Today, a pin has ALREADY popped up!!!

IMG_0007.JPG

Here is the first tray, almost done with it's second flush.

IMG_0003.JPG
IMG_0002.JPG

Here are four trays from a VERY happy food dehydrator...

IMG_0002_1.JPG

My FOAF's wife's birthday party went most excellently. Thank you, Mycotopia, for this wonderful knowledge! It's amazing what my FOAF's friends are willing to barter for good shroomies...

[BuckarooBanzai]

As always, click a pic to enlarge.

First case, second flush:

IMG_0001.JPG Attachment 16582

Real nice cluster from that flush:

IMG_0010.JPG

And, finally, the second harvest:

IMG_0018.JPG

FOAF had intended to print all of these, but, PINHEAD THAT HE IS, HE FORGOT TO HIT THE PO FOR TYVEK!!!

Hope the mushie gods aren't offended...

[BuckarooBanzai]

Click any pic to enlarge...

Okay, my FOAF came home to a most beautiful sight this evening. This harvest is a lot less, weight wise, than the first, but oh my is it purty! When he first got home and looked in on the babies, a very odd "white saucer" kind of thing was almost touching the inside of the light window. The window is a glass cutting board that is pebbly on one side, so you can't really see anything through it. To be seeing a cap through it would mean it was almost touching it. Folks, this is a 25 gallon bin and isn't short!!! This is what the mushroom gods gifted him with:

IMG_0007.JPG IMG_0010.JPG IMG_0019.JPG

That's a very nice representation of the happy dance that my FOAF did when he opened up the bin!!! SCREW the fact that the harvest was less!!! I know a lot of you have seen these before, but that's the first mushroom this big that I've ever seen (in person). It's just so beautiful, too. The pictures don't begin to do it justice.

Sorry, that's sounding rather boastful, and that is not my intent. I just want to share a little of the insane happiness seeing this little fellow brought to my FOAF!!! Talk about a made evening!!! Happy, happy, joy, joy!!!

Anyway, that case is doing the same 1hr warm water dunk as before. Then casing material will be filled back in around the edges and back into the bin it goes. The possibilities for flush 3 boggle the mind...

Thank you, Mycotopia!!!!!

Can anybody guess what I'm chewing on right now?

[Hippie3]

very impressive.
this hillbilly strain is really looking good.

[BuckarooBanzai]

I've been blown away (in every way) by them. I just wish their founder dude would poke his head back in...even if he's found Jesus and moved to Utah to be a Morman/Repuplican, I'd like to know he's okay.

That's one of the reasons I've sent you and other folks these prints. If the man isn't to be seen, I want to do everything I can to keep this species in circulation. If a total noob like me can have success from his very first try at bat, I think these need to stay around!

Also, it has some cool characteristics. No hollow stems, *heavy* sporulation, good potency and quick growth. And FOAF hasn't found a substrate yet that it didn't like.

I don't know if it's just this strain, but FOAF is having a blast playing with the humidity and causing the Hua-Gu phenomena. They are like snowflakes - each cap will crackle a little differently. Fun to look at while flying...

[BuckarooBanzai]

Oh, yeah, more good Hua-Gu porn:

IMG_0009.JPG IMG_0013.JPG

IMG_0016.JPG IMG_0019.JPG

Sorry, Hippie, for uploading these twice. I had already added them to the other thread when I remembered that this one was the one with archive tag. If you want to kill the others in:

http://forums.mycotopia.net/showthread.php?t=6797 (Manipulating humidity and Hua-Gu formation for cubiues)

and cross link them to these, it will save you some server space. Again, sorry about that.

[PsychoactiveMessiah]

PAM is whats in strawnet, it does cause deformities.

here is a study on PAMs and mushroom growth...

J. Agric. Food Chem. 1993, 41, 1261-1283 1261
Determination of Acrylamide Monomer in Mushrooms Grown on
Polyacrylamide Gel
Laurence Castle
Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Food Science Laboratory, Norwich Research Park,
Colney, Norwich NR4 7UQ, U.K.
Mushrooms (Agaricus bisporus) grown on a casing mixture containing polyacrylamide gel have been
analyzed to assess the possible uptake of acrylamide monomer from the polymer gel to the fruit during
cultivation. The polymer was found to contain 220 mg/kg residual monomer. At the application rate
employed for cultivation this would have given an initial monomer level of 220 pg/kg in the casing mix.
Mushrooms were analyzed by extraction, bromination, and quantification of acrylamide as 2-bromopropenamide
using gas chromatography-mass spectrometry in the selected ion mode. No acrylamide
monomer could be detected at a limit of detection of 0.5 pglkg. This demonstrates that acrylamide
either does not translocate significantly from the mycelia to the mushroom fruit or that the monomer
does not bioaccumulate, due perhaps to a high water solubility or chemical reactivity.
INTRODUCTION We have reDorted earlier on the analvsis of tomatoes
The production of edible mushrooms is a major industry
and is one of the most important examples of microorganisms
cultured for human consumption. Of the estimated
1.5-2.0 megatonnes of edible mushrooms cultivated
worldwide per annum (Gry and Kirsten, 1991; O'Brian,
19891, more than 85 % are the variety Agmicus bisporus
with an estimated value of U.S. $4 billion. Horticultural
"value-added" is significantly higher than for other agricultural
sectors, and crop protection, increased efficiency
of production, and quality are priorities (MAFF, 1992).
A general requirement for successful mushroom cultivation
is a composting substrate along with a second
substrate, a capping or casing soil, which overlays the
composting substrate and in which the fruits form. The
traditional substrate is composted stable manure, although
chicken manure is now more readily available in quantity
and also finds widespread commercial use. The function
of the upper casing is to provide support for the developing
fruits and maintain a constantly moist culture. The casing
has traditionally been peat neutralized with chalk or
limestone.
Incorporation of water-imbibing polyacrylamide into
the casing mix is a recent development and is claimed to
offer two major advantages to growers. First, it is said to
encourage mycelia of the fruiting bodies to form and
colonize the casing mix. Second, the polymer should
reduce the need to apply water due to its large water
capacity once hydrated to a gel. Since watering is
considered to be a major route by which disease is
introduced in mushroom cultivation (Hudson, 1986),
extended intervals between watering should help reduce
the incidence and severity of disease.
Although polyacrylamide is itself an inert polymer, it
can contain residual acrylamide monomer as a result of
incomplete polymerization. Monomer levels in the agricultural
grade polymer are typically around 200-500 mg/
kg on a dry weight basis. The toxicity of acrylamide
monomer is well established (Le Quesne, 1980; WHO,
19851, and this is reflected, for example, in the strict limit
of 0.25 pglL set by many countries for drinking water
(WHO, 1985). There is a need therefore to ensure that
this water-soluble monomer is not taken up and bioaccumulated
by crops grown using polyacrylamide gel and
intended for human consumption.
002 1-856 11931 1441-126 1 $04.00/0 Publi
grown hydroponically on polyacrylamiie gel, where no
monomer was detected in the fruits at the 1 pglkg (ppb)
level (Castle et ai., 1991). The work reported here extends
these studies to the analysis of mushrooms, where a quite
different set of translocation and accumulation parameters
may be expected to operate.
EXPERIMENTAL PROCEDURES
Materials. Mushrooms were grown in Germany and supplied
for analysis by Polyplant GmbH (Xanten, D). The mushroom
cultivar was Somycel 208. The polyacrylamide Hydrates 2
(Agricultural Polymers LM., Gloucester, U.K.) was added at 73
g/m2 to the casing mix giving 1.8 kg/ms calculated for polyacrylamide
on a dry weight basis. The polyacrylamide was added to
the casing mix on April 2, 1992, and the day of harvest was 26
days later. Mushrooms for analytical controls were cultivated
in the normal fashion, without the use of polyacrylamide.
Immediately following harvest, the mushrooms were dispatched
to the laboratory in polyethylene bags and were received the
following day. They were stored frozen at -18 "C between receipt
and analysis.
A sample of polyacrylamide typical of that incorporated into
the mushroom casing mix was supplied by Agricultural Polymers
LM.
Acrylamide (99 7% ), methacrylamide (98 7% 1, hydrobromic acid
(ACS grade, 48% w/v), and bromine (99.99%) were from Aldrich
Chemical Co. (Gillingham, U.K.). Potassium bromide (AnalaR)
was from BDH Chemicals (Poole, U.K.). Methanol, ethyl acetate,
and hexane were of glass-distilled grade from Rathburn (Walkerburn,
U.K.). A bromination reagent was prepared from
potassium bromide (200 g), hydrobromic acid (10 mL), and
bromine-saturated water (saturated at 4 O C , 160 mL) made to a
total volume of lo00 mL with distilled water. This reagent was
stored at 4 "C.
Extraction of Mushrooms. Mushrooms were taken from
frozen storage and allowed to warm to room temperature over
1 hand then subsampled. They were analyzed both "as received"
and after washing by hand under cold running tap water to remove
surface dirt. Randomly selected mushrooms (caps and stalks,
200 g) were cut into small pieces using a knife, and the pieces
were mixed to further randomize. An accurately weighed
subsample (50 g) was added to water (200 g) in a 400-mL tallform
beaker and homogenized using an Ultra Turrax homogenizer
fitted with a 25N shaft and operated at full speed for 1 min. The
resulting slurry was allowed to stand for 5 min and then the top
layer of "foam" poured off and discarded (ca. 100 mL). An aliquot
(20 mL) of the remaining mixture was poured into a vial and
shed 1993 by the American Chemical Society..

[BuckarooBanzai]

I actually read the full text of that study (and a few others) while doing research on polyacrylamide. That particular study details the potential uptake of acyrlamide monomers (highly neurotoxic/carcinogenic precursors to polyacrylamide) into fruit bodies. That study (and a few others) found no detectable acyrlamide in fruits (or mycelium), even when it was boosted significantly above the trace residual levels normally found after "full" polymerization.

Portobellos grown on an pure polyacrylamide substrate (hydrated with nutrients) were shown to have no detectable acrylamide in the fuit or mycelial body, even when the acrylamide concentrations were boosted.

So, no acrylamide toxicity issues should manifest as mushrooms don't seem to be willing to take in and accumulate acrylamide monomers from substrates/casings, regardless of monomer concentration. Please note that Ps. Cubensis was not the test mushroom used in any of these studies.

I also did a good bit of reading on the bacterial sources in the EarthJuice hydrant and polyacrylamide breakdown acceleration caused by their effects. The microbial life present in EarthJuice does accelerate polyacrylamide decomposition, but not to such a degree as to be concerned about it over the life cycle of a cake/caseing. Polyacrylamide probably shouldn't be used for multi-season outdoor beds with EarthJuice as a hydrant.

This does NOT mean polyacrylamide is safe for human consumption. Polyacrylamide DOES contain some free acrylamide monomers and your stomach WILL uptake them (much to your nervous system's detriment). Acrylamide monomers are highly antagonistic carcinogens and potent neurotoxins.

I have seen no information about mushroom deformities/mutations caused by polyacrylamide in the peer reviewed literature, but would be very interested in any links or titles/authors you could give me. My FOAF has no interest whatsoever in toxifying himself with something just to avoid a little grit and pay less attention to hydration factors!

OPINION ONLY: FOAF (who has admittedly very little experience with growing Ps. Cubensis mushrooms) has noted no variance in fruit bodies between polyacrylamide and non-polyacrylamide treated substrates and casing layers. That said, there was one big'un that grew a small wedge of gills (gills that sporulated) on the top edge of the cap.

FOAF thought mutations were common enough in home cultivation so as not to warrant significant concern. FOAF thought mutations were pretty common occurances, based on some of the "freak show" pics he has seen on this site. FOAF knows mutations are *reasonably* common in nature.

I am interested in other's thoughts. Do mutations in about 1 in 40/50 fruit bodies concern you?

[synth]

Originally Posted by BuckarooBanzai

I am interested in other's thoughts. Do mutations in about 1 in 40/50 fruit bodies concern you?

No, not really. Has your FOAF tried more than one strain?
Is it reasonable to suspect that this frequency of mutation
can be attributed to genetics rather than the substrate?

Interesting.

[BuckarooBanzai]

That would be all of one strain and about 10-12 flushes under his total noobie belt. This, of course, is why he is trying to reinvent the wheel with odd casing formulas containing totaly synthetic polymer agents.

Seriously, FOAF is qualifed to talk about basically nothing in generalities at this point! This is why he wonders quite intently if mutations are something to be concerned about. Mutated fruit could easily be removed from the bio assay pool, if nothing else.

[PsychoactiveMessiah]

IME it can be allot worse. I get stunted musrooms that open there caps too early. Some never even mature. Characteristics of veticullium contamination. Bent over and splitting stems. There is a thread at the nook about it with others who are using the same stuff. It has severely reduced yields for me. ALthough the pinsets were enormous they dont all mature. Later flushes mature ok but the first to stunt for me. I dunno, but after what you said about the carcinogens and neurotoxins I think Im going to leave it alone..

Thanks

[PsychoactiveMessiah]

ACRYLAMIDE: IT'S TOXIC, IT'S EVERYWHERE AND AGBIZ CAN'T REPLACE IT/THE MONSANTO CONNECTION
"...acrylamide in foods is actually a residue of a surfactant, or chemical additive, routinely used to enhance the effectiveness and reduce spray drift of a number of herbicides including Monsanto's Roundup herbicide, the most widely-used pesticide in the world."
Death of Frankenfoods: Nailing the Coffin Shut - BioDemocracy #40
"Recently the world health organization (WHO) had a closed meeting to review the finding that cooked vegetables had significant levels of acrylamide. The finding received worldwide attention because acrylamide is a potent nerve toxin in humans and also affects male reproduction, and causes birth defects and cancer in animals." (from item 2)
"Polyacrylamide [acrylamide is a building block for polyacrylamide] is the crutch that holds up the entire edifice of industrial farming. It's toxic, it's everywhere and the agbiz system can't replace it." (item 1)
1. Craig Sams on the use of polyacrylamide
2. Prof Joe Cummins on the Monsanto connection
***
1. Craig Sams on the use of polyacrylamide
Dear Jonathan
Your last ngin news contained the Organic Consumers Association postings http://www.organicconsumers.org/supe...otests0608.cfm with what could be the fatal blow for conventional agriculture. Polyacrylamide is the crutch that holds up the entire edifice of industrial farming. It's toxic, it's everywhere and the agbiz system can't replace it.
The use of polyacrylamide as a surfactant in Roundup and other herbicides at 25% of the mixture is just one explanation for the presence of polyacrylamide on wholegrain crispbreads, potato crisps and chips and bread.
Another source of systemic polyacrylamide lies in its use on irrigated arable land as a soil binding agent. Deprived of humus through repeated applications of soluble nitrates, soil erodes quickly on irrigated land. In the absence of organic matter, polyacrylamide functions as a 'glue' that holds soil particles together. It is added on a regular basis and the original USDA research that recommended it as a desirable practice was in the early 1990s. It is added to water on a 10 parts per million basis, which means a lot is dispensed over the growing season. Because it is sticky, it helps the soil to retain herbicides, pesticides and heavy metals that might otherwise wash away. Because irrigation often means spraying the plants from overhead sprayers the plants are covered gratuitously with polyacrylamide every watering time. It is of great importance in the horticultural industry.
Check out Nebraska's ag website on the subject:
http://www.ianr.unl.edu/pubs/water/g1356.htm
Polyacrylamide absorbs up to 400 times its own weight in water. It is used in disposable nappies (diapers) for this reason. It is sold in garden centres for hanging baskets and other houseplant situations where water retention is needed. It seems inevitable that, as the roots of the plant take up water, they will draw polyacrylamide from the soil and incorporate it into their tissue.
As far as I know, polyacrylamide is not permitted in organic farming so a quick test of organic chips, crisps and crispbreads could provide an interesting result.
The article by Linda Chalker-Scott below is very informative.
Craig Sams
Linda Chalker-Scott, Associate Professor, Center for Urban Horticulture, University of Washington
The Myth of Polyacrylamide Hydrogels:
"Polyacrylamide hydrogels are environmentally safe substances that reduce irrigation needs"
The Myth
With a significant drought looming on the horizon for the Pacific Northwest, those of us whose business or pleasure includes landscape plants are understandably concerned with water issues. In response, the dot-com websites are full of products promising to reduce water usage in the landscape. Prominent among these products are hydrogels, which have been used successfully by the landscape industry to reduce transplant shock and increase containerized plant growth. These hydrogels, sometimes referred to as root watering crystals or water retention granules, swell like sponges to several times their original size when hydrated. Water is then released slowly to the surrounding soil, reducing the need for irrigation. Once considered to be a professional nursery product, hydrogels are increasingly popular with homeowners who add them to vegetable gardens, container plants, annual beds, lawns, and perennial landscapes. The most commonly available are polymers of acrylamide and potassium acrylate. These polymers have a longer functional life, perhaps up to five years, compared to other organic hydrogels composed of starch, gelatin or agar. These latter hydrogels are commonly used in cosmetic surgery; polyacrylamide gels are not used for this purpose.
The Reality
My initial concern with hydrogel usage is the public perception that it is a permanent fix. Hydrogels are routinely touted as pH-neutral, non-toxic, environmentally friendly compounds, which they are in their polymerized form. The fact remains that after five years virtually all hydrogel will be depolymerized through natural decomposition processes. The rate of degradation is increased especially in the presence of fertilizer salts (and no, it doesn't make any difference if these are synthetic or organic fertilizers). One is then left with the original soil conditions; in a permanent landscape, this can be problematic unless other water-conserving steps are then implemented. My second, and probably greatest, concern occurred when I discovered that hydrogels are constructed of acrylamide units. When hydrogels break down, they release potassium acrylate and acrylamide. Acrylamide is a lethal neurotoxin and has been found to cause cancer in laboratory animals. It readily passes through the skin and can be inhaled as dust. Unfortunately, the chemical data sheets on hydrogels do not mention the fact that within a few years they will be composed entirely of these acrylamide units. Since polyacrylamide is defined as ?not readily biodegradable? (less than 10% is degraded after 28 days), some sellers of hydrogels actually promote their products as nonbiodegradable!?
Who is at risk to acrylamide exposure? Workers in the nursery and landscape industry who routinely use hydrogels may become exposed to them as they degrade and become toxic. Homeowners who add hydrogel-containing potting mix to their landscapes or compost piles are exposed. Dogs, cats, and wildlife that come in contact with these substances are at risk. On a larger scale, entire ecosystems are at risk as acrylamide is water-soluble and can easily enter watersheds. One of the greatest pleasures of gardening is getting your hands into good, rich soil and breathing in its aroma. I believe that the increased, and indiscriminate, use of polyacrylamide hydrogels is an extremely serious hazard to human health and to the environment.
The Bottom Line
Hydrogels are organic compounds that will degrade after 2-5 years; they are not a long-lasting solution to droughty conditions. Exposure to fertilizer salts will increase the degradation rate of hydrogels. When hydrogels degrade, one of the byproducts is acrylamide, a deadly neurotoxin and potential carcinogen. Acrylamide can be absorbed through the skin or by inhaling; people who have a likely risk of exposure to this compound absolutely require safety clothing and dust masks. There are safe (albeit shorter-lived) alternatives to polyacrylamide hydrogels, including starch-based gels and others currently used in cosmetic surgery. There are other environmentally sound ways to reduce water usage and improve water retention of soils than through hydrogels.
Acrylamide in food
. Pesticide residues on GE corn and soybeans may be carcinogenic. A chemical component of Monsanto's Roundup Ready herbicide, sprayed on millions of acres of herbicide resistant soybeans and corn, has been linked to increased risks for cancer. Recently the World Health Organization issued a warning that a potent nerve toxin and carcinogen, also linked to birth defects in animals and humans, was turning up in a variety of vegetables. At first the WHO suggested that the presence of the chemical, acrylamide, probably arose from cooking the vegetables at high heat. Now according to a Canadian scientific expert, Dr. Joe Cummins, another, perhaps even more basic explanation is that the acrylamide in foods is actually a residue of a surfactant, or chemical additive, routinely used to enhance the effectiveness and reduce spray drift of a number of herbicides including Monsanto's Roundup herbicide, the most widely-used pesticide in the world. According to Cummins, frying foods containing acrylamide residues would then likely increase their concentration even more. This is yet more bad news for Monsanto, who derived 70% of their profits last year from sales of Roundup herbicide. It's also bad news for the animal feed and meat industry, since non-organically raised animals are now ingesting record amounts of Roundup (and acrylamide) residues in the soybean hulls and other soy and corn-based feeds they are consuming.
http://www.organicconsumers.org/monsanto/acrylamide.cfm
***
2. Prof Joe Cummins on the Monsanto connection
ISIS Report, 1 August 2002
Acrylamide In Cooked Foods: The Glyphosate Connection
Recent health alert over toxic acrylamide in cooked foods is linked to glyphosate, Prof. Joe Cummins reveals.
Acrylamide is a building block for the polymer, polyacrylamide, a material well-known in molecular biology laboratories as a gel matrix for resolving DNA fragments in sequence analysis and identifying proteins, both under electric fields. In the world at large, polyacrylamide is used in water purification to flocculate suspended organic matter. Recently the world health organization (WHO) had a closed meeting to review the finding that cooked vegetables had significant levels of acrylamide [1]. The finding received worldwide attention because acrylamide is a potent nerve toxin in humans and also affects male reproduction, and causes birth defects and cancer in animals. The WHO press releases implied that the acrylamide finding was a surprise and that the pollutant probably arose from cooking the vegetables.
Strangely, the WHO releases did not mention the fact that polyacrylamide is a well known additive to commercial herbicide mixtures (25% to 30% solutions) to reduce spray drift and to act as a surfactant [2]. The glyphosate (ie Roundup) herbicides of Monsanto Corporation are of particular concern because the herbicide interacts with the polymer [2-4]. Experiments showed that heat and light contribute to the release of acrylamide from polyacrylamide, and glyphosate was found to influence the solubility of polyacrylamide, so care was advised in mixing the two.
The evidence seems compelling, therefore, that acrylamide is being released from polyacrylamide in the environment, one of the main sources of which is in glyphosate herbicide formulations. Cooking vegetables that had been exposed to the glyphosate herbicide used with herbicide-tolerant crops, or used during soil preparation for normal crops would result in the releasing more acrylamide. Worse yet, additives such as polyacrylamide are designated 'trade secrets' in North America and information on the contents of herbicide preparations are not available to the public.
I am surprised at WHO's feigned ignorance of the polyacrylamide -herbicide connection. WHO should make more effort to consult experts independent of the giant herbicide corporations for a change, so the public could be told the whole truth.
Weiss G. Acrylamide in food: Uncharted territory. Science 2002, 297,27. Smith E, Prues S and Ochme F. Environmental degradation of polyacrylamides:Effect of artificial environmental conditions. Ecotoxicology and Environmental Safety 1996, 35,121-35.
Smith E, Prues S and Ochme F. Environmental degradation of polyacrylamides: II Effects of outdoor exposure. Ecotoxicology and Environmetal Safety 1997, 37,76-91.
Fischer K, Kotalik J and Kettrup A. Determination of acrylamide monomer in polyacrylamide degradation studies by high performance liquid chromatography. Journal of Chromatographic Science 1999, 37,486-94
This article can be found on the I-SIS website at
http://www.i-sis.org.uk/acrylamide.php

[BuckarooBanzai]

I've read some of this and a number of other studys on dangers with decomposition of polyacrylamide. That's the reason I said it shouldn't be used in outdoor beds, it's probably pretty bad after 4-5 years. There will be no breakdown to speak of over the life of a case, however.

[BuckarooBanzai]

Click any pic to enlarge...

Here are the pics of the big'un harvest from case 2 (flush 3). FOAF was so excited earlier, he forgot to post 'em.

bigun bridge.jpg uns from above.jpg IMG_0002.JPG

It's nice to be able to balance a whole harvest on the scale without a weighing tin! 159g from 4 beauties. Thank you, mushroom Gods for the gift.

Thank you Mycotopia for the knowledge!

all on one scale.jpg


Here is an offering of the gift...

Big Offering.jpg

Okay, and here is our update on both cases for flush 4. Things are starting to slow down a little...maybe...

Here is the 1st case, 4th flush, about 36 hours after pins showed:

1st case, 2nd flush.jpg

Here is the 2nd case, 4th flush, about 12 hours after pins showed:

2nd case, 3rd flush.jpg

The first flushes tended towards one or two large bodies, with no sizable clusters. FOAF thought this was a tendency of the strain. Assumptions are never good things. Now the second case is doing this:

big cluster.jpg small cluster.jpg

FOAF is watching the development of that first thing quite closely!

The rest of this is just unabased mycoporn. You might want to excuse the kids...

Promising specimen from case 2:

2nd case specimen 1.jpg


The sadness of an abort:

abort.jpg


A nice pair of nipples:

IMG_0023.JPG


An in tact veil:

in tact veil.jpg


A torn veil:

torn veil.jpg


Pellicle close-up:

pelicle shot.jpg

[BuckarooBanzai]

Click any pic to enlarge...

1st case, 4th flush:

1c 4f 3.jpg

1st case, 4th flush stem harvest (caps are printing):

1c 4f stem harvest.jpg

Very fatassed stems. Kind of odd...

2nd case, 4th flush, big cluster:

big cluster 2.jpg

2nd case, 4th flush, small cluster:

small cluster 2.jpg

2nd case, 4th flush, whole case:

whole case.jpg

FOAF had decided before this case ever pinned that the fourth flush would be the victom of some pretty vicious Hua-gu experimentation. That's why it looks so dry...it's been put through the ringer in terms of humidity fluctuations and air blowing across it. Very strange that the mushroom gods would have chosen this flush for the best pinset so far.

It's really a testament to the strength of this fungus that it is continuing to fruit at all. The PS Cubensis can take a lot of punishment and still deliver fruit. It's really quite amazing.

[BuckarooBanzai]

Here are the Hua-Gu's from this flush:

hua-gu 2.jpg hua-gu.jpg

Nothing to write home about in terms of crackling. It's decent, but not spectacular. What's cool, to my FOAF, is that the coloration has stayed more golden and less brown/tawney. The color seems to develop with the body. FOAF had thought the color was present in toto in the small dark pin and then just spread as the body developed.

[BuckarooBanzai]

Click any pic to enlarge...

Second case, 4th flush:

IMG_0034.JPG IMG_0038.JPG

Sadly, this will be FOAF's last flush from this case as the fruiting space is needed for other projects. We mourn his untimely passing with great sadness. Oh Hillbilly case, we hardly knew ye...

That said, here is the Hua-Gu porn from this case:

IMG_0040.JPG IMG_0042.JPG IMG_0044.JPG
IMG_0046.JPG IMG_0048.JPG

[BuckarooBanzai]

Kind of off topic, but here is a B+ clone done with the same polyacrylamide treatment. Excessive mutation does not seem to be an issue.

IMG_0021.JPG IMG_0025.JPG

Case 1 is on it's sixth flush...pics to come...

[golly]

Hey bb.. can u tell if the myc are penetrating the polly crystals and about how much water remains in them at the end of your grow...interesting log btw....

[BuckarooBanzai]

FOAF is experimenting with growing mycelia on poly hydrated with sugar water. The mycelia will surround the poly, but not penetrate it. When the poly/sugar water jars have been shaken, myc will end up buried and form odd division lines as it grows back up around the individual poly crystals.

Odd you should ask, as FOAF had assumed the myc would grow into the very open poly matrix. FOAF wonders why you mentioned it...

The poly is never hydrated fully, only to about %80. It shrinks significantly over the course of a flush. There is significant shrinkage in the crystals and to the case itself. FOAF has settled in on a 2 hour warm water dunk to rehydrate the crystals between flushes. 3 or more seems to "water log" them. Cold water doesn't soak in the same.

FOAF sees the purpose of the poly as three fold:

1. It holds water and makes certain the myc has enough for good fruit development.
2. Since it's hydrated with EarthJuice, it acts as a nutrient source, as needed.
3. Not fully hydrating causes it to act as a buffer against over anxious misting and terrarium drips.

You should do some reading on "the devil polyacrylamide" before considering it as an additive. Poly is far from an organic ingredient and other things will get this same job done with far fewer safety questions.

I find the hard science to be on the side of safety. I may also have tumors the size of grapefruits 5 years from now. To me, that's a small price to pay for avoiding verm in my mouth. Your mielage may vary. Significantly.

Caveat Emptor!

[golly]

just curious, cause when i tried using them - i had the same results ,in that the myc would surround but not penetrate the crystals...lack of O2 i guess..
I pretty much grow everything organically now and based on the info provided here - would not consider their use in growing anything....
I noticed that peroxide and fertilizers will cause em to lose their holding capacity....