Has US Airport security gone too far?

[motograter]

I recently got the pleasure of passing through a checkpoint at a major airport. The most enjoyable part was listening to some of the passengers complaining about security. My favorite was "maybe I should just get dressed after I get here." I'm glad it's there, I wish they would do more. I just wanted to get some opinions from you all....

[OmBudsMan]

i love that commercial where the guy is saying over a cellphone, "yeah, i just passed through airport security...all i know is someone owes me dinner"

I think it's pretty silly for the most part. Anyone that is determined to get weapons on board will get them onboard because it has already been proven it can be done. Last year that one man did it just to show how easy it was and he was arrested after he turned himself in with an explanation/purpose, and I think he will be tried for it as well. All I see it as is something to try and keep the paranoid public in check by appearing to do 'something' about security. Maybe it deters the absolute idiots away that would bring something on the plane in their pockets but no one serious would have much difficulty.

[dbzeroone]

I didn't vote. IMO it's fine the way it is. No more no less. I will say that banning nail clippers and stuff like that was just idiocy. I'm glad they're getting a little smarter about that stuff.

A while back I got from the Southwest e-check-in thing at the entrance in LAX to the line boarding the plane in 7 minutes. Not a daily occurrence, I know, but it can be done. I also stood in line for what seemed like an hour once while some woman unlaced her riding boots and took them off. C'mon... think about what you're wearing!

Instead of whining about the process, people should be better prepared for security line. Everyone knows what to expect so make sure your phone is on, but don't be on it... pay attention! Take your laptop out, wear easy on easy off shoes, take EVERYTHING out of your pockets, etc. Security doesn't slow the line down, people do.

Also, I firmly believe that after Sept. 11, the rules have changed. You'd have to be a special kind of stupid to hijack a plane in the US now. If someone stood up on a plane now with a box cutter and said they were hijacking it, they would be mobbed and beaten to an inch of their life before the plane was on the ground. The "give em what they want and we'll all walk away" attitude just doesn't exist anymore.

[grimblegrumble]

A couple of months ago I was chosen for a "special screening" by security in the airport.
It took over 45 minutes, I almost missed my plane, and it was fucking ridiculous.
Afterward when I was going through my stuff I found 2 lighters that the security personal had missed in my backpack.
Boy did I feel so safe then.

[sexonaplate]

They put so much effort into security, yet you will probaly be able to get through a security check 50% of the time without having one of those photo bags checked, they should market those things as "Not just for film!"

I'd say the security is just a feel good type thing, once you get past the gate it's pretty lax. If someone wants to hijack a plane, they will find a way.

[mushymonkey]

It's all just an illusion of safety. Don't want the sheeople fucking up a major component of out economy and the economic domino effect that would follow a terrorist attack.

I flew out of Miami on a last second ticket a year or so after the shoe bomber dimwit so I was pulled for special screen. No big deal just shoes and magic wanded. She only did my body with my arm raised. I was wearing two carpel tunnel wrist braces that have a 6 inch knife sized/shape metal parts (and it slip out) that would make a nasty shiv.

The guy I sat next to had a co-working on the shoe bomb flight...said the free drinks were flowing after the guy was busted. Said everyone was freaked out big time...so bonus if you live.

[TVCasualty]

Free drinks for a foiled attack...sweet!

My dear old dad was flying out of a small city, with a small airport, and the security guy swabbed his bags with the detector paper and fed it into the machine. It started an alarm going off, alerting to an explosive residue present. The screener was annoyed and told my dad not to worry about it, he could go. That was interesting. He is a pretty old guy, but then I was with him and I look...wrong. My old man was more worried about not being scrutinized after setting off the bomb alarm!

I think the metal detectors are partially bogus. I can see the pattern of how they reset and when I can walk through. So I watched, and walked through at the time I saw the light turn green. But the guy stopped me and made me walk back through again. That time, it beeped (and I had absolutely nothing metal on me at all. I make sure of that). Gets him a closer look at the guy with all the hair... I offered him a piece of my grandma's homemade chocolate fudge, but he declined. My grandma's fudge knock me on my ass...and apparently it has a very similar density to plastic explosives. The fudge wasn't that strong fortunately...

[Glasshopper]

My brother flew shortly after 911, when he landed just after picking up his luggage they searched everybody's stuff before being able to leave baggage claim. They said it was for safety but how does it make flight safer to search AFTER everything is over and the people are leaving the airport?

[pskovinsky]

I've never had a problem with it, if you go into and through security with a mind towards making their jobs easy, they won't bug you.

That said, i've never been on a flight i couldn't have gotten a composit knife into, six bucks and it has no metal in it whatsoever.

Thing is, to find that sort of thing you would need to pat down every single person that got on the plane, which would cost a terrible amount of time and money.


I think they could use a bit more security, mainly explosive detection stuff, and stronger doors on the cockpit, rather then the rather flimsy plastic ones.

[motograter]

I wouldn't risk it. You could always be chosen for random screening. Then if they find it on you, 1 you'll loose it, and, 2 chances are you'll be arrested for having it in an airport. The way they'd see it is you knew you had it and you were trying to sneek it past security, which is illegal. It's one thing to just simply have a knife in your bag, but if it's in your pocket you're just asking for trouble. Besides, what do you need a knife for on a plane??????? As far as the explosive detection things, they just added in a machine that puffs air on you and samples it. They have it in about 15 airports so far. I forget where I saw the article.

[I_am_me]

His point was that its very easy still to get something on a plan that can cause serious bodily harm.

Hell, I could take a pop can that they give me on the flight and bic pen and make a knife.

[Starscream]

The point is when there is a will there is a way...ALWAYS!
Such policies only instill fear into the common minded public
(ah but such are my unheard views)

Also at this point its tied dead even and thats quite amazing to me

[motograter]

I wasn't debating that someone could get something past security. If you wanted it badly enough, you could easily get on with a knife. But what happens the second you pull out that knife and start acting like a nut??? Do you think you'll be able to take down a plain with a knife??????? Not gunna happen! You'll most likely ge stabbed before you can do any damage..

All the people that voted No, What about it would you like to see changed? Less searching bags? So some one could get on next to your son, daughter, Mom, Dad etc. with a bomb or gun??
Not search old people cause they don't have anything... That may be true, but what about the people that helped pack there bags? I'm 100% in favor of tightening security. I lost my aunt, uncle and 4 month old cousin on 9/11. All because security wasn't good enough. The more, the better....

[TVCasualty]

I bring my own bottles of beer on planes all the time, drink them on the down-low and hand the empties to the attandant who reminds me I'm not allowed to do that. I thank them "Oh, really? Sorry won't happen again" and go about my business. A broken bottle can do every bit of damage that a boxcutter can, as if boxcutters had anything to do with anything.

A good friend of mine's brother in law was the pilot of one of the planes that hit the towers, so the 9-11 thing hit close to me as well. But, I don't believe at all that it had anything to do with lax security at the airport.

[Eldeeder]

I saw two TSA guys help an old lady stand up out of her wheelchair so she could be searched... Really guys? Has it really come to this?? IMO, the "increase" in security is just the government spending more money, so more highschool dropouts can through their weight around and let you know THEY are the ones in charge... Its a joke... My buddy got through just fine with a film bag... For those of you who dont know, its made of pure lead, and protects film from x-ray, he could've EASILY had a gun in it, hes been through the xray at 9 different airports, not one person said a thing... So there you go terrorists... Film bags.. TSA? It's a fucking joke... I need to stop now, I get really riled up about this stuff...

[anticheffy]

they should be watching out for these guys, not gramma

[cap]

[the jesus]

I went to Ireland recently and was searched up and down. The worst part is the guy took off my shoes and stuck what looked like a shish ka bob skewer into the soles. I was wearing Nike Air running shoes and he literally burst my bubble. I don't know if anyones been to Ireland, but it is pretty wet. It took me 2 days before I realized what the "squish squish" sound following me around was.

Don't really have an opinion, just pissed about my shoes.

[motograter]

Originally Posted by Eldeeder

I saw two TSA guys help an old lady stand up out of her wheelchair so she could be searched... Really guys? Has it really come to this?? IMO, the "increase" in security is just the government spending more money, so more highschool dropouts can through their weight around and let you know THEY are the ones in charge... Its a joke... My buddy got through just fine with a film bag... For those of you who dont know, its made of pure lead, and protects film from x-ray, he could've EASILY had a gun in it, hes been through the xray at 9 different airports, not one person said a thing... So there you go terrorists... Film bags.. TSA? It's a fucking joke... I need to stop now, I get really riled up about this stuff...

All a film bag does is make the image a little darker... It doesn't make it totally opaque. There is no way in hell he could have had a gun in the film bag. You can count the rolls of film in the bag on an xray....

As far as screening an old lady, Sure, she may have no ill intent. But what about the 35 year old guy that "helped" pack her bag? Or the skycaps that let her use the wheelchair? The terrorist have NO regard for human life, which is why they strap 7 year olds with explosives and use a cell phone to trigger them. That way, they can be FAR away from the kid when they call him to blow him up.. TSA isn't the enemy.

I bet you'd be one of the first to bitch when something else happens because TSA decided that they didn't need to give 95 year old grandpa a pat-down and he had a gun that he was going to pass off the his grandson during a layover....

Wake up. ANYONE can be a terrorist. Remember the 35 year old soccer mom that was a ring leader of a terrorist cell in suburban Cali?

[encapsulated]

Originally posted by The Jesus
I went to Ireland recently and was searched up and down. The worst part is the guy took off my shoes and stuck what looked like a shish ka bob skewer into the soles. I was wearing Nike Air running shoes and he literally burst my bubble. I don't know if anyones been to Ireland, but it is pretty wet. It took me 2 days before I realized what the "squish squish" sound following me around was.

Don't really have an opinion, just pissed about my shoes.

I would have demanded they buy me a new pair of shoes just as i would if a cop cut open my spare tire looking for drugs (assuming there was nothing in there that shouldnt be) allbeit it might not happen but i damn sure would try and i would be pissed also.....I thought nobody fucked with the jesus

[~Hippie3]

the lack of any successful sky-jackings since 9/11
surely testifies to the effectiveness of the security procedures.

[srgtm1a]

People will always bitch and moan....if it's not because of the increased security that is in place now...it will be because of the lack of security when something happens.

I personally think it's great....my airport really upped the security....x-rays, shoe checks, explosive swabbing of luggage etc. A few extra minutes to be safe is fine by me.

They aren't checking your shoes for drugs, they are checking for explosives, as this has been tried a couple times unsuccessfully by terrorists.

I can see why people would get upset that they make an old lady get out of her wheelchair to check her, but if you were a terrorist, wouldn't you choose a disguise or person that people would least likely suspect?

I think all of this stuff is great, considering the types of stealthy weapons they make now. I have a full working car tire gauge that is also a 22 magnum pistol. If you looked at it, it would just look like a regular car tire gauge.....flip a hidden metal sleeve at the top...you now have a gun. They make the same thing in cig lighters, pens, etc....so I can see why they don't let certain items on board.

You can practically make a gun out of just about anything, simply using a spring and a little metal rod as a fireing pin, so I'm glad they x-ray and take away little things.

[motograter]

srgt, thank you, I was starting to feel as though I was in the minority here....
I know everyone is entitled to their opinions, I'm not trying to change anyones mind, just stating mine. I'm glad the procedures are the way they are, I wish there was more. The airport I work at, TSA has a booth that checks people for explosives with bursts of air. It's kinda funny to watch peoples reactions

Eleeder, I appoligize for reacting the way I did when I read your post, as I said above, I lost 3 people very close to me on 9/11. So I just get a little upset when I hear people complaining about security.

btw srgtm1a, were you in the Army?

[morganfreeman]

I was escorting a cancer patient through security in Atlanta, GA late last year. She had no hair on her head, looked like a cancer patient and had...what's called a "pick line" in her arm. The pick line is to help get the chemo in because your veins collapse after a few rounds.

Anyway, we were running a bit late for the plane. We both went through the metal detectors just fine. Our carry-ons had nothing in them but food and magazines...

But this mother-fucker of a security guard stopped us and humiliated my escortee. (Is that a word?) He pointed to the tube dangling from her arm and said, "I don't know what that is, don't move."

She said, "I have cancer" and removed her hat to reveal her head. (This is a young woman by the way and she was publicly humiliated.) I normally would have said something, but I was so incredulous, I was frozen. I didn't even know what to say or do! (I actually never spoke through the entire incident. Not a word. I was afraid if I said one thing, it would explode and I would end up trying to strangle the guy. So I just sat and watched her be humiliated, unable to do anything for fear of a cavity search.)

He said, "I don't give a shit." And held us up a long time until they could determine what that was. We missed our flight. It was a rubber tube stuck in her arm with some gauze over it. Common sense told you it was nothing and his lack of human decency was appalling.

The problem with security is that it gives false hope. The terrorists aren't going to walk brazenly through metal detectors with guns...they are going to find other ways to get stuff on planes. They are going to bypass security. And hassling a young girl with a pick-line is just ridiculous.

[BitterApple]

The trade off for this illusion of "security" is freedom. Not a good trade in my book.

See also: "the journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step." In other words the patriot act and the bs airport screenings are just one step in the ongoing deterioration of our rights.

[morganfreeman]

Couldn't agree with you more Bitter. I'm all for armor-enclosed cockpits and air marshals on the planes, but as far as these security morons at the gates- no way. Defensive measures are great, but offensive measures- to the point of hassling a young woman with cancer- is just ridiculous. Thank the Bushmaster for that.

Plus, I think if anyone tried to hijack a plane nowadays, they would have about a hundred passengers coming at 'em. I know I would. A couple of slashes from a box cutter? I've had worse.

[motograter]

Most likely, next time it wont be a box cutter, and everyone knows it. No one is afraid of "hijackings" anymore. If it happens again, it's going to be a bomb. Go ahead and try to defend yourself against a few pounds of Semtex. Are you going to be the one to rush the guy with the detonator? I doubt it.
OK, How many of you would get on a plane with NO security. Let's say "XXXXXXX" Airlines has been advertising a FREE flight to your choice of destinations, You can bring ANYTHING you want on board. Take a gun, knife, broadsword, there will be NO security. Would you take your children on that flight? You may have a gun, but odds are, the guy next to you has something MUCH worse.... I say if TSA has to piss off 20 people to keep 300 safe, it's a fair trade. So they guy embarrassed her, big deal, did her plane blow up? No. Then he did his job just fine and needs to work on his customer service skills.

[srgtm1a]

Originally Posted by motograter

srgt, thank you, I was starting to feel as though I was in the minority here....
I know everyone is entitled to their opinions, I'm not trying to change anyones mind, just stating mine. I'm glad the procedures are the way they are, I wish there was more. The airport I work at, TSA has a booth that checks people for explosives with bursts of air. It's kinda funny to watch peoples reactions

Eleeder, I appoligize for reacting the way I did when I read your post, as I said above, I lost 3 people very close to me on 9/11. So I just get a little upset when I hear people complaining about security.

btw srgtm1a, were you in the Army?

No, never in the army....I tried to join the marines when I was in High school during the Gulf War. I was 17 at the time and needed my parents to "o.K." it. They told me the only thing I could do is enlist, but I'd have to wait until I was 18 if my parents didn't sign a waiver.....wich of course they objected to extremely.

I figured that the war would be over with b4 I turned 18....and if I couldn't kill people for my country, I didn't see a point in joining the military in peace time. So....I went to college instead and made the P's happy.

[morganfreeman]

Originally Posted by motograter

So they guy embarrassed her, big deal, did her plane blow up? No. Then he did his job just fine and needs to work on his customer service skills.

Excellent point! Her plane didn't blow up because of their diligence in looking at the pick-line in her arm. That's why the plane didn't blow up...because of the lack of explosives in her arm. Wait...I am confused now.

Sorry, just having trouble following that logic, because it's...uh...not logical. Her plane didn't blow up because she had a pick-line in her arm (and not explosives). Does your argument really make sense to you? (I smoke weed sometimes myself, so it's cool man.)

And as far as bombs on the plane argument- how many have they caught at airport security again? Because I forgot. Let's see... Hmmmm... Let me think. Oh yeah- none! There was the shoe bomber a while back, but he made it on the plane. Someone could still get plastic explosives on a plane by putting it in a silly putty egg. There are a thousand ways to do it. Terrorists will find a way. It's the common citizen who gets hassled. The terrorists are slightly more creative. Now we check shoes because of that incident. Big deal. We've also eliminated lighters, so people can't light fuses, but you can walk through security with a box of matches in your pocket all day long.

The terrorists will end up swallowing the friggin' bombs and detonating them with their cell phones. They'll ram it up their asses, in glass cigar tubes. (I'm just throwing out ideas. I'm sure a real psycho has all kinds of crazy shit in his head.) Again, security mostly detains people who are not trying to subvert it, like me- a proud citizen of the U.S.

But you're right- I'm glad she was humiliated, because they saved her plane that day. Good thing we caught the later flight. Cause that pick-line would have caused the whole thing to blow. Thanks for re-aligning my thinking.



I'll just shut up now and let the poll results speak for themselves. Don't ask the question if you don't like the answers. It is a "poll" right? I didn't realize that a poll-taker is supposed to argue with the volunteer participants of said poll. Why bother polling? You could have just given your opinion and left it at that if you weren't going to actually respect the opinions that you asked for.

[motograter]

"Her plane didn't blow up because of their diligence in looking at the pick-line in her arm."

No, it didn't blow up because of their attention to detail.
If it were you, and you had to ensure the saftey of the traveling public, and you didn't know what something was, would you just over-look it?

I already said I wasn't trying to change anyones mind, if you can't have a debate and you're just going to get upset and defensive, then don't bother commenting. It is a discussion, right?

I think I even said, if someone wanted to, they could get something on board, which is why I think they need to add more layers to the current security measures.

How many bombs have they caught? none, how many have made it on the plane? 1. How many have exploded? none. I'd say thats a pretty good ratio.

[morganfreeman]

Originally Posted by motograter

"Her plane didn't blow up because of their diligence in looking at the pick-line in her arm."

No, it didn't blow up because of their attention to detail.

That would imply that they found a bomb on her or anyone else that day. The plane didn't blow up because she, nor anyone else on the plane, was a threat. Again, I just am not understanding you. Could you please clarify what the hell that statement means? It doesn't make sense. I've read it three times. I am not trying to insult you; I just don't understand it. Security did NOTHING but hassle an innocent girl, period. Their "attention to detail" as you put it, was unnecessary, because they found nothing wrong with her pick line. You are giving them credit for saving a plane from blowing up that day?

Originally Posted by motograter

If it were you, and you had to ensure the saftey of the traveling public, and you didn't know what something was, would you just over-look it?

Honestly, in this case, yes. I would overlook a three inch tube that was inserted into somebody's arm and was quite clearly an American and quite clearly sick. If they checked that, why didn't they check her vagina to see if it was packed with plastic explosives while they were at it? Heck, why don't they check everyone's vagina? I actually didn't go into the whole story. I told you we missed our flight and had to wait around. What we were waiting for was a "female inspector" and none were around. They weren't going to disrobe her, so that made no sense. The "female inspector" was just to look at the I.V.- that's it. These guys were so dumb, even though nobody ever physically touched her in any way, they still called a "female inspector." When they finally got a female from another gate, she took one look at the girl and said, "Oh God, I'm sorry." Rolled her eyes at us- shot daggers at the other security people- and said, "Go on through honey."

She had a brain and realized that if a 3 inch see-through plastic tube was a threat, we'd just carry it in our pockets.

Originally Posted by motograter

I already said I wasn't trying to change anyones mind, if you can't have a debate and you're just going to get upset and defensive, then don't bother commenting. It is a discussion, right?

I like discussion threads. I thought this was a poll. You know, gathering yes' and no's in this case.

The reason I got defensive was because I expected a little more compassion for a cancer patient. Ever go through chemotherapy? It's like hell on earth. You showed no compassion towards her and simply said that this supreme jerk-off needed to work on "customer service" skills. That offended me. I think it's a little more than that. She is a U.S. citizen (none of the 9/11 folks were) and there is nothing suspicious about an I.V. in your arm, especially when matched with no eyebrows or eyelashes and dark circles under your eyes. (You can pluck eyebrows, but you just can't fake dying.) Only a high-school drop-out (as one previous poster referred to them) or a bona-fide idiot wouldn't recognize an I.V. This guy was like, 40 years old, he never had an I.V. before? Bear in mind, we weren't carrying the I.V. bag- just a needle and a tube. There was a little gauze to keep it from flopping about.

The question was "are they going overboard." I think checking out an I.V. is overboard. It's too small to contain anything (not to mention clear tubing) and making the girl miss her flight (and subsequently, her appointment at the Mayo Clinic) over a 3 inch, clear plastic tube is- IMO- way fucking overboard. Plus, most importantly, these people aren't medically trained anyway. What if they tried to remove it? They would have hurt her, because this type of I.V. actually gets fed deeply into the arm. So all they did was make us miss our flight. That's it. We landed too late, she was out of anti-nausea pills and suffered greatly that evening. Is that the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? Methinks not.

Finally, and this is the hilarious part-- if she would have just worn long sleeves (the way a terrorist with an explosive I.V. would do), we would have never been stopped. Like I said, we walked through the metal detector just fine.

That's what the question was and I'm sticking to it. I'm not against security, but I am against the dumb shit these guys do at the gate- it's going overboard. That's just my opinion. Of course, I fly constantly, so you know, I might be over-exposed to these people and their hassling of old ladies in wheelchairs.

That's another point. They pick people AT RANDOM to avoid profiling. What good does that do? Does that mean a terrorist has a 70% chance of getting through because they only swab and frisk a few people at random? Dumb.

[motograter]

I'm sorry I offended you. I really truly am. That was not my intention. I'll admit, this guy was obviously a moron.
I agree with some of what you say, except for the part where you make reference to being a US citizen. So what. Richard Ried, Timothy Mcveigh, I'm not sure of his name, but there was a US soldier who was selling information to Al Queda. So just being a US citizen does not put you above security, or terrorism.
They had to wait for a female because males aren't allowed to personally screen females and females aren't allowed to screen males. That goes back to some woman who had a hip replacement, set off the metal detector, and was screened by a FEMALE, and was "Groped" when he screener touched the side of her hip......
I'm not saying that ALL of the TSA officers are the brightest and best the US has to offer, I think history has proven that VERY well. But for the most part, they are just people who want to do what they can to prevent another attack, or they are trying to provide for their families. (I'm sure there is a handfull that want to push people around as much as they can)

I've worked closely to alot of screeners for almost 2 years, I'll admit I have seen my share of DUMB things, but for the most part they've done a pretty good job (at least the ones I've seen). The only things that get big publicity are the bad things, like Screeners failing tests, etc. But you never hear about when they catch passengers with guns, or hatchets, or huge hunting knives, or grenades. If I can find the article online, a local paper showed the items that were confiscated by TSA at 1 airport in 1 month.

[the jesus]

I would have demanded they buy me a new pair of shoes just as i would if a cop cut open my spare tire looking for drugs (assuming there was nothing in there that shouldnt be) allbeit it might not happen but i damn sure would try and i would be pissed also.....I thought nobody fucked with the jesus

Jew said it main, nobody fucks with the jesus. Like I said I didn't figure out he popped it until a couple of days later. If I see him again I will pull out my piece on the lane, shove it up his ass, and pull the trigger until it goes... click.

[morganfreeman]

Hey Moto- No problem man. I'm sorry I responded so aggressively. I guess it's a sore subject for me.

Just to clarify one thing I said: I didn't mean that American citizens can't be terrorists and not screened. I meant they should have cut her some slack because she was an American citizen AND sickly. It was the combo platter I was talking about.

You know, like old ladies in wheelchairs who are citizens. That's a triple combo platter.

You know what's funny? I've come through customs many, many times. My friends and I take regular trips to Costa Rica and- occasionally- Brazil. We are a suspicious looking bunch. I never shave and always need a haircut. The others, when they come with me, are just as homeless looking. (We go down to surf, eat lots of $3 fish meals and drink. That's it.)

I've never, ever, ever been detained even for one second by U.S. customs. Never had my luggage opened EVER. One time recently, after the guy in front of me was interogated for an hour (exaggerating here), the U.S. customs agent actually waved me through- without even asking what my citizenship was! Now this was a first. Not even asking my citizenship?

I had to ask, because I've held this "never been searched" record for a long time. "Sir. Real quick. Just wondering. Why did you hassle that guy in front of me and you are just waving me through?"

He replied, "You have sand on your legs. You must have went from the beach to the plane." (He was absolutely right, the cab picked me and my backpack up on the beach.)

He continued: "You look like shit, clearly hungover. Your eyes are red, you were frowning at me while you stood in line. The bad guys never look like this and they smile when they see me. There's nothing in your luggage; I don't even need to look."

He was absolutely right. There was nothing in my luggage. I didn't even bring a bottle of booze. This guy knew his shit! But then again, this was a highly trained U.S. Customs officer...maybe a former military man. I wish the people at the gate could have his level of training and intelligence...then, I probably wouldn't get so upset.

Funny story, eh?

Peace out.

[morganfreeman]

Gosh. Now that I think about it, maybe I shouldn't have posted that story. I don't want terrorists using the hung-over, frowning, sand-stuck-to-the-legs method of getting in the country. Seriously.

Think it should come down? Mods- delete as you please. I'm not sure that was a smart thing to post, but at the same time, I wanted to share the story. Damn! Conflicted here...

Really though, nobody who was carrying drugs would dare to frown and stare daggers at a U.S. customs agent the way that I was. So the lesson here, boys and girls, if you are ever bringing contraband from another country- look very annoyed! (But try to avoid bringing contraband. Cavity searches must suck.)

[~Hippie3]

i kinda doubt we have many al qaeda reading the forums here.

[morganfreeman]

Okay good. If you find any of them, please remove them from the forum. That's the last thing any good forum needs- a bunch of Al Qaeda running around screwing things up!

[TVCasualty]

Well this thread got entertaining.

Morgan (or should I call you Mr. Freeman?): I got livid reading your story about the TSA guy hassling your friend. I've been in your shoes before (assisting someone with leukemia for months and months through chemo) so I know how frazzled it can make a person. I was suspecting that the guard was really trying to provoke you to respond in the way you feared you might had you spoken up. I bet he just wanted to pick a fight, and a guy that nuts would have no problem humiliating anyone for kicks. I know I would've been arrested for disturbing the peace in that situation, but I'm suicidally myopic when it comes to people who fuck with someone helpless.

For what it's worth, the Lockerbie plane bombing was accomplished by way of a vaginally-smuggled chunk of C-4. Such an attack needs only a spark that even an IPod could be rigged to supply to detonate it, since there's no need for timers or antennas or complicated electronics when it's a suicide mission (as some groups are prone to doing). An IV bag could be filled with nitroglycerin or some other unstable liquid, too, to compliment a cancer patient costume. Oops, shouldn't speculate openly and give anyone any ideas...Oh well. We're all gonna die, more likely from cancer or heart disease than explosives, and if a group wants to bad enough, they can eventually blow some shit up and kill some people. Besides, why is it worse when a loved one is killed by a bomb versus lightning or a car crash? We still keep driving afterwards, knowing the risk. We still have no plans to erect a metal mesh lightning shield across the sky, even after what happened to those poor Boy Scouts. I don't want to hobble my movements and give up personal privacy and freedom in exchange for deeply flawed and unreliable security measures that seem to remind us we're sheep more than they secure us. Where was all this imminent terror 30 years ago? Oh wait, back then it was the Evil Empire (the Red one) not terrorists that we were scared of, and we hid under our desks at school thinking about mushroom clouds. Now we take our shoes off at the airport and keep our mouths shut while thinking about boxcutters and explosive footwear.

Terror is an emotion, one I do not feel when contemplating terrorism. I buys my ticket I takes my chances. Real security only comes when we're not being hated around the world. Figuring out how to make people who may hate us stop hating us appears to be a monumental task (we have to communicate, and think, and other hard stuff), but I'd argue one worth pursuing. And sure, killing everyone 'over there' makes them stop hating us, too. Maybe that's why there's been all this nuclear talk lately. Time for the Ultimate Final Solution? Will I then finally be SAFE?! Will I be SECURE?!

In the Brave New Secure World to come, the old fashioned handshake will be dropped as the customary gesture to greet someone in peace (presenting an empty hand no longer assures anyone that you are unarmed, with modern technology and all...). Yes, soon the new customary gesture of peaceful greeting will be a ritualistic shining of flashlights up each other's asses. All Clear! Nice to meet you! Golly, it's sure swell to be this secure!

[~Hippie3]

that's pretty funny

but seriously
i understand where you are coming from
still what is right for you
won't satisfy everyone
and don't their wishes count too ?
fear is a very real thing,
who has the right to dismiss another person's fears ?
to say
it doesn't matter what you feel,
my privacy is more important
than your life
?
even if the 1 outweighed the other 1
does the 1 outweigh the 1000 ?
you'll never get that to pass
in a democracy.

[TVCasualty]

I suppose I'm just advocating the flipside of your argument; what's right for the timid teeming masses should not be imposed on me. But it will. So it goes.

[~Hippie3]

majority rule.
never much cared for the idea, personally.
but like you
i have no choice.

[morganfreeman]

Originally Posted by TVCasualty

Well this thread got entertaining.

Morgan (or should I call you Mr. Freeman?): I got livid reading your story about the TSA guy hassling your friend. I've been in your shoes before (assisting someone with leukemia for months and months through chemo) so I know how frazzled it can make a person...[edit]...I know I would've been arrested for disturbing the peace in that situation, but I'm suicidally myopic when it comes to people who fuck with someone helpless.

For what it's worth, the Lockerbie plane bombing was accomplished by way of a vaginally-smuggled chunk of C-4.

Thank you! Uh... You don't have to call me Mr. Freeman. My name is Paul, actually. I was watching March of the Penguins when I registered here, so Morgan's voice was playing in the background. I've never been very good at the "creative screen name" thing. I always want to just use my name.

But I thank you for three things:

1.) Thank you for understanding why I was so upset about my friend, the cancer patient. It was just a lack of human decency. I appreciate someone else knowing what I am going through. Few do. I normally would have been "suicidal" in that situation; it was a real exercise in self control for me. Like I said, I was more shocked and frozen than anything. I couldn't even think straight. I was afraid they would tug on her pick-line and injure her and hurt her.

2.) Thanks for bringing up the fact that her vagina could have been packed with C-4. Everyone's vagina can be packed with C-4. The terrorists could have a big ole' vagina-stuffin' party and walk right through security.

Finally, thank you for your intelligent and well-articulated response. Glad I'm not the only one who feels this way about airport security. The reason I mentioned the U.S. Customs guys is because- in my many experiences with them- I don't believe for one second that they would have stopped this girl. They would have spotted the dark circles under her eyes and her complete lack of body hair and probably would have HELPED her walk through. They blatantly target certain individuals and "profiling" is part of their job...unlike the private security companies that can only hassle people at random. A U.S. customs agent would never screw with a young cancer patient who WASN'T carrying contraband. They are too well trained and I've never had a bad experience with THEM, at least not yet. But of course, I never smuggle anything into the U.S., so they are just there to protect me. We have a good, symbiotic relationship.

I'm not saying this is the answer either, because as you mentioned, if they are going to do it, they are going to do it. You know, with the aforementioned vagina-stuffing party. Right now, I just see a whole lotta stupid.

[BitterApple]

Originally Posted by motograter

Most likely, next time it wont be a box cutter, and everyone knows it. No one is afraid of "hijackings" anymore. If it happens again, it's going to be a bomb. Go ahead and try to defend yourself against a few pounds of Semtex. Are you going to be the one to rush the guy with the detonator? I doubt it.
OK, How many of you would get on a plane with NO security. Let's say "XXXXXXX" Airlines has been advertising a FREE flight to your choice of destinations, You can bring ANYTHING you want on board. Take a gun, knife, broadsword, there will be NO security. Would you take your children on that flight? You may have a gun, but odds are, the guy next to you has something MUCH worse.... I say if TSA has to piss off 20 people to keep 300 safe, it's a fair trade. So they guy embarrassed her, big deal, did her plane blow up? No. Then he did his job just fine and needs to work on his customer service skills.

Fine if you feel that way (to me its paranoid but to each his own) just remember the cost - at the expense of your constitutional rights. Also remember that the current methodology provide nothing more than an illusion of safety. It's my opinion that if they wanted to take another plane it would have happened.

Note that this country has a history of using baby steps to progressively take big rights away. Warm the frog to boiling vs dropping a frog in boiling water, dig?

By the way if youre that afraid of airplanes there are alternative methods of travel......

[~Hippie3]

no one is going to risk their life
just because it is your
opinion that

if they wanted to take another plane it would have happened

or

the current methodology provide nothing more than an illusion of safety

pretty sure you aren't an expert on air security or terrorist methodology.
so your opinion is worth ?
not much.
i wouldn't bet
my life
on it.


now plz tell me exactly
which constitutional right
has been taken away ?

[cheddar_bob]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

now plz tell me exactly
which constitutional right
has been taken away ?

Fourth Amendment - Search and Seizure
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


the security at airlines is a sham. it provides the illusion of safety to the sheep of this country. if someone was insistant about getting weapons aboard an airliner it could EASILY be done. a plastic edged weapon could be smuggled through a metal dector without a hitch. the cargo on planes isn't even thoroughly checked

http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?...9&id=999662003

[~Hippie3]

are you a constitutional law lawyer/judge ?
i just ask because as far as i know
SCOTUS rulings so far have supported the notion
that stopping everyone for public safety reasons
isn't legally a 'search'
that's how they set up police sobriety check-points
this has been settled law since
well before 9/11
so it's a flawed argument to claim
that this 'loss' is due to the war on terror.
it was already lost
in the war on drugs.
in truth of fact though
most of the 'rights' never actually existed
except on paper.

[cheddar_bob]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

most of the 'rights' never actually existed
except on paper.

sad but true...

[BitterApple]

are you a constitutional law lawyer/judge ?
i just ask because as far as i know
SCOTUS rulings so far have supported the notion
that stopping everyone for public safety reasons
isn't legally a 'search'
that's how they set up police sobriety check-points
this has been settled law since
well before 9/11
so it's a flawed argument to claim
that this 'loss' is due to the war on terror.
it was already lost
in the war on drugs.
in truth of fact though
most of the 'rights' never actually existed
except on paper.

Hippie with due respect, your post above suggests that:

A) You put your faith into the rulers of our day to decide whats best for us as a people (you and me) when:

1) The idea behind our creative and unique (at least when it was created) governmental structure, was that the people would decide what's best for themselves, being adults and free people, and that the government would represent what the people wanted.

2) The government today consistently represents the interests of special interest groups and those who have the most money - not the american people as a whole.

3) The rulers have managed to fix the system so that cronyism is what decides who gets to rule this country (the original idea was that the people would select who represents them, from amongst their own ranks). We are still given a choice between candidates but in reality we dont get to choose the selection of candidates we get to choose from. The candidates are those with the most money, or those with friends with the most money - in effect representing 1% of the american people - the richest. So our "choosing" is a ruse, a farce.

4) When the constitution was created, it was done with the expectation that it is OUR job as citizens to know our own rights and to preserve them - not leave it up to the judges/constitutional lawyers, and rulers of our day. This is evident all throughout the constitutional text itself to anyone who has read it through completely.

So it baffles me as to why, in response to our opinion, you would ask if I or anyone else here are judges or constitutional lawyers.

Further, in your post above you outlined several examples of our government methodically stripping us of our rights, supporting mine and others posts that the airport security check is yet another and similar example in the continual erosion of our rights. These things happen in steps. The war on drugs for example, led to several advances against our constitutional rights.

You asked what rights have been impeded upon, and cheddar_bob listed one. Here's another: How about the constitional right to own and bear arms? The amendment states such a right shall not be infringed. Yet during the 20th century our government has systematically eroded our rights to own and bear arms. It has only been in recent years through the very expensive efforts of the NRA and other groups that many states now (again) allow for carry permits.

Youre right we have lost some rights long ago. And its because we (the people) were not paying attention. And we will continue to lose more rights if we are not careful. Leaving it up to the Supreme Court Judges and to Congress to interpret our Constitution is the WORST thing we can do. The very text was established to put the power in our hands and we are ALLOWING it to slip away.

Want another? The original document didnt allow taxes. In fact that was the biggest reason we told Britian to go screw themselves. We didnt want to pay taxes!

I could go on all day but since this site is about mycology and not the constitution, I will bow out of this debate and go see what more I can learn about my new hobby. Peace

[BitterApple]

I came back to ask, who says the airport security is what the masses want???

The patriot act was not voted on (much less voted for) by the people. Bush rammed it through.

I dont know ANYONE, friend or family, who appreciates the security checkpoint. Nobody in my workplace, (we have 200 traveling salespeople) want or appreciate the checkpoint. Not one. Yes its a myopic slice of the peoples opinion, but so is any poll.

I'd be curious to know how many of the people on this forum who voted in this thread that current security practices are acceptable, have actually traveled by plane since the patriot act was put in place??? Probably not many, if any at all.

Here are 2 quotes from just one website of a number of House Representatives who are against the patriot act:

From traveling across America, it's unmistakably clear to me that there is an almost universal rejection of the PATRIOT Act.

In eroding our civil liberties, President Bush has taken our freedom while making us no safer, no better protected against terrorism

A quote from Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

[siam_jim]

all i want is to get home to my family safe and unharm. a lot of people complain about the hassle, never once though of them planes that went down and bet ya they would of been more than willing to have over done security.. i'm imporatant to my family and my family is to me. 1-3 hours delay is not going to kill me.

peace
siam