Tax dodgers taunt police from hilltop compound

[Invader Zim]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/06/21/tax...rss_topstories

i can understand where they are commin from...but if you choose to live in any certian country you should choose to follow there rules. i know there will be some that say that tax's are illegal anyway and i agree with you. but when the powers that be have all the power you do what your told or get the F out. from the article it would seem that they had/have plenty of money to do so.

and god damn i need to get there floorplans for that place "From behind the 8-inch concrete walls of their 110-acre hilltop compound" seems like they planed for the worst from the get go.

[rocketman]

Just some older couple trying to get some excitement in their lives, im all for it , but these things seldom end well. At least the govt says they wont storm the place. I bet they have enough food in that place to last for years.

[Hippie3]

if you choose to live in any certian country you should choose to follow there rules.

oh man give me a friggin' break here,
you trying to say that you don't break the law
when it suits you ?
never smoked any pot or ate any illegal shrooms ?

rules are for the sheeple.

[dizzydank]

good deal, hope they make them feds sit out there and wait a long fucking time.

[Invader Zim]

lol well maybe i shoulda re worded that. my illegal habits arnt tracked like tax's are haha

[TVCasualty]

So they lock themselves behind 8-inch concrete walls in order to avoid spending time in prison? That'll show those feds! And wow, how can U.S. government agents ever hope to penetrate a wall eight inches thick! (I hope the couple built a tunnel while they were fortifying the compound!)

When they are finally carted out of there, can they get credit for time served for the length of the standoff?

Step 1: Agents fly helicopter over compound, spraypaint solar panels to cut power. This step is just for fun.

Step 2: Teargas through the windows, and/or sonic disruption. Keep it flowing until their gas-mask filters wear out or their ears explode.

Step 3: Collect occupants as they flee the building. Sell building to offset costs.

Whether or not the income tax is 'legal' in some arcane historical sense is irrelevant; if you don't pay they grab your bank account, if you hide your cash they come with guns, and if you don't surrender they kill you (unless you're just a crazy old couple that would make for bad PR if killed outright. Children are apparently OK to squash and burn, however. After all, examples need to be set.)

Here's another thought I had after reading the story: How many other countries are there where you can see a press conference held by someone currently involved in a standoff against the government with someone who has been violently raided by the government in the past (Randy Weaver)? And that during this standoff, supporters of the anti-governement tax protesters are showing up and hanging out, maybe even re-supplying the couple?!? In China, for example, all these people would be dead by now. Taxes suck, but I'm still glad I live here (and am not a child of a cult member in Waco, Texas).

P.S.- The article stated they had 'geothermal' power. Really? The house sits on a geyser or hot spring or something?? That's neat! I think I'd like to bid on the house at the IRS auction as long as the smell of teargas comes out of carpet and drapes.

[Hippie3]

fuck taxes
and fuck the feds too.
i'm with that couple-
live free or die hard muthafuckers

[rocketman]

Hips goin Waco on us! Get the guns topiates, we have to protect Hip!

[Nabby]

I can't say I agree that taxes are stealing... I mean, what they do with some tax money is a bit ridiculous, but you can't run a system of government on donations. I may not be fond of the way some tax money is spent, or the corruption in the system, but there is corruption in any system. Power corrupts. People are greedy.

Still, here in the U.S. taxes give us a certain degree of luxury, our children are well educated, and even if you don't have children yourself, it's the children of others who will one day grow up to handle many of the things we take for granted. We have cheap running water, electricity, and natural gas. We even have a military to defend us and give aid when disaster strikes, which would be a lot smaller if it went unpaid. If it was left up to every individual who carried a gun and guarded his own home, any invading country would have easy pickings as they took down the country one home or one city at a time. We need that organization. Don't forget the roads which are provided by the government as well. They help get the food from where it's grown to marketplaces where we can get to when we need it. To me this is important, because I for one don't have the kind of land space to raise cattle and garden crops to feed myself. I even need to point out the postal service, which I find incredibly useful for getting sporeprints in and out cheaply. I dunno what else to say... I know we all work hard for our money and hate to give it up, but the government does provide services in return that a society of our size needs. If you've got a better idea, feel free to fill me in.

You say you got a real solution
Well you know we'd all love to see the plan
You ask me for a contribution
Well you know we're doing what we can
But when you want money for people with minds that hate
All I can tell you is brother you have to wait

You say you'll change the constitution
Well you know we all want to change your head
You tell me it's the institution
Well you know you better free your mind instead
But if you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao
You ain't going to make it with anyone anyhow

[dizzydank]

[dizzydank]

mayb i missed it but how much do they owe?

[rocketman]

If you knew some of the frivolous ways the govt. spends your money you would shit a brick. I have seen it, and it is ugly.

[Hippie3]

...blah blah blah...you can't run a system of government on donations...blah blah blah...

maybe not
but one could be run on end-user fees.
i don't get free postage for my tax dollar,
i pay the tax and i still gotta buy stamps.
a government could be self-funded by
sales of electricity, water, use of road/rail/water/gas/wired networks, etc.
income taxes could be limited to for-profit corporations
and foreign entities.
they don't need 20-25% of the little guy's pay check
on top of the sales taxes, property taxes, license fees.

[TVCasualty]

It does suck to work hard, take home some money and pay some as tax, then go to the store and pay sales tax on the money I spend that's already been taxed, and then buy gas and pay yet more tax on money that's already been taxed (and provided as a subsidy to the oil companies while they report record profits) and I'm pumping the gas into a car I paid sales tax on even though the car was used, and then I get to pay for a business license for the privilege of generating more tax revenue, and let's not forget the fees charged to process many types of payments, and the fee-fees charged to process the processing fees.

Someone pointed out awhile back that the tax burden Americans are under now is far greater than what incited the Boston Tea Party and the Revolution. And that was "awhile back!"

If we didn't over-tax our hard-earned money and use the vast majority of it to stockpile and maintain nuclear weapons, pillage the world, and subsidize various industries, we would have a better life for ourselves here and fewer people hating us elsewhere. And our children would actually be well-educated instead of their parents just thinking they were.

[Nabby]

I think that's the point I was trying to make... I don't agree with the way our tax money is spent, but we do need at least a little bit of taxation somewhere. I'm totally in agreement that taxes are excessive in places. Fuck, around here, the gov't has used taxation for "our own good" by raising taxes on tobacco to try to make people quit smoking, and by attempting to leave good foods tax free and yet tax junk food because of our "obesity problem." I think our system of government is far too large at this point, with it's hands in everything, and everyone's pocketbook, and too many politicians are living good lives on our money when their only contribution to society is more rules and taxes. Things are headed in a very communist direction.

In many cases, though, we do pay taxes for what we use... stamps are a tax to use the postal service, wheel and licensing taxes on cars pay for the roads... but the gov't does need to get a little something else to pay for other services like military and police and a certain degree of government organization. Now, I will say I think our military is a bit mismanaged and overzealous. It should be for our defense, and not forcing our ideals on other countries, and the stockpiling of redundant weaponry is a waste. I also think a lot of police officers are dicks and a lot of so-called "crimes" are bs, but I'm all for murderers being brought to justice. I'd hate to think that if I was in desperate need of police assistance, that I'd have to pay them to come out...

[TVCasualty]

Originally Posted by Nabby

I'd hate to think that if I was in desperate need of police assistance, that I'd have to pay them to come out...

So I take it you have not yet been taken to the hospital in an ambulance or (God help you) a helicopter? There will be a bill appearing in your mailbox if you use these services, and it is a big bill. It's OK if you got health insurance, but I'm one of those who don't, so my 'health plan' is 'be careful.' And, I'd be happy to pay for police 'protection' on a per-use basis (my bill would be rather small).

BTW: There is no situation so bad that calling the police can't make it worse!

[Nabby]

Yeah, wouldn't it be nice if healthcare was provided like in Canada? That's why I think I'll be moving there soon. And along those lines, as much as I hate Mr. Moore, his new movies Sicko is definately worth checking out. But police aren't all bad, you gotta keep an open mind. My buddy and I blew a tire in the interstate last Friday, and a State Trooper pulled up a few minutes later to see if he could help. I really dig it when they actually protect and serve.

[Doctor D]

More power to em! If they want to spend the rest of their natural lives holed up in their compound, I say let them. To that end though I think it would be fair for The Goverment to cordon off the property so they can't receive any visitors.

[reverend trips]

Yeah, wouldn't it be nice if healthcare was provided like in Canada? That's why I think I'll be moving there soon.

I live in Canada and every single week the federal government takes $211 out of my paycheck for income tax alone, that is ontop of all the other deductions such as unemployment insurance and Canadian pension plan deductions. I also have to pay 14% taxes on goods and services that I buy with what is left with my check. Some food for thought before you think you have it so bad in America

I love Canada, but being a healthy person that works hard and doesn't abuse any of the social services, I sometimes think I'm getting screwed over bigtime.

[GoVols]

Gentlmen, the solition to all of this is Liberterianism. Anyone listen to Neil Bortz? I do.

He and Congresman Linder co-authord a tax book, the Fair Tax.

The only tax imposed on anything is an imbeded 21% sales tax.

No IRS, no records of anykind like they currently collect. Consumer cost would be about the same as all the taxes on corperations would be dropped, competition would lower prices, and JOBS, good ones, would move back into America. Plus anyone who signs up for it would recieve a monthly prebate for the "necicities of life"

Not to mention Bortz wants to legalize pot and shrooms too!

[hallucinogeneti]

I've heard that our taxes don't pay for the government. I heard they go into bankers pockets. We are kept in debt by the national reserve, and we do it anyways, we give up so much shit when we don't have to.

[hallucinogeneti]

by the way.. I think the only way libertarianism will ever work is if they can recruit the entire nation (including our soldiers) into a hostile take over. We've been asleep for way too long

[Hippie3]

21% is way too high.

i say
make them go to the trouble to come & collect it,
it'll cost more than it's worth.

[GoVols]

Hp 21% is nothing.

You might think that its high but its not.

Look at it this way. You get all of your pay check, nothing taken out.

Plus, Lets say you want to go buy a TV. Say a 1,000 dollar LCD or something. If we had the fair tax, that TV that costs 1,000 now, would not cost 1,000 + 21%, it would probibly cost less than it does now. Why? Because the company that makes it pays not taxes.

"Oh a big business not having to pay its way that is wrong" one might say. Well the taxes they are charged now are just passed on to the consumer ( i.e. me and you) And we still have to pay damn income tax.

This plan also does some stuff with social security, but Im not as informed about that.

Want to see it in action. It is not just on paper, unlike socialism it works in real life too. The Irish enacted a tax program very similar to this, right now their econemy is among the most robust in Europe, while the countries of France, GBR, Germany are drowning in incometax/socialist programs.

[GoVols]

The reason this tax system is so good is this.

1. You have more money in your pocket at the end of the day.

2. Big business, no longer being taxed, is able to pass on the savings to you.

3. The government collects pretty much the same amound as it does now. Its called revenue neutral.

4. Small business' (which I believe you are in Hip) are able keep more of their money, possibly expand, employing more people, or keeping in the black durring lean times, instead of going out of business.

The income tax is a 19th century idea. we were and industry econemy then, now we are a service, massuve consumer cultre

and the best of all reasons, BYE BYE IRS!!!

[rocketman]

Originally Posted by GoVols

The reason this tax system is so good is this.

2. Big business, no longer being taxed, is able to pass on the savings to you.

When has this ever happened. The savings goes to shareholders.
The only time any savings is passed on to the consumer it is due to the raping of pay and benefits of the workers in the manufacturing sector.

[Hippie3]

10% is my tax limit.
even the ancients drew the line there,
the word 'tithe' means to give 1/10th.
if that was good enough
for the gods and priesthoods
then that's enough for me..

[Dipole]

Figuring out what that percentage should be would be one hell of a problem to tackle. A use tax discourages spending, so it promotes saving, this leads to a richer American public. So I think it is the most sensible way to go. I don't know how to think about how to change from one system to another without people getting screwed.

Well going Libertarian would be worth it if all we got out of it was legal herb and shrooms.

[TVCasualty]

The other side of this issue is the reduction of expenditures. If they spend less money in the first place, they need to take less from us. Thinking of it in terms of how much government presence in my life would I prefer, I could possibly tolerate the 10% Hip stated. That is, a gov that taxes at 10% will have less money than one taxing at 21%, and I'd rather have the smaller government.

Trouble is, there are too many utterly wasteful expenditures and so many uninspired self-serving bureaucrats tenaciously holding on to pointless jobs, riding the Gravy Train in circles while we wait in line (that's our gravy, btw!). Or, "sucking the public tit" is another way I've heard it phrased, and just like how no one went to any extraordinary meaures to protect typewriter repair jobs as computers took over, so should go the vast majority of bureaucrats if fiscal responsibility and Good Sense were to ever take over.

On the other hand, with a bloated and inefficient (and corrupt) government it's easier to tiptoe around and get away with more than in an efficient, streamlined government. But, on the third hand, a much smaller government would have more respect for civil rights and personal freedom (if for no other reason than being too small to enforce consensual crimes and such) and would be easier to make accountable since there'd be no one to hide behind or point fingers at like is so easy to do now. Undue corporate influence on policy would be mitigated as well in a truly open, transparent system, which is the kind we should have if we claim to be democratic, though as long as capital can flow freely across national borders, democracy is impossible.

Is this an insoluble conflict, maybe? The world we have now is the result of the dynamic tension of many competing interests being held in check by each other (some held more in check than others, however). The "borders" are drawn where the stalemates occur. These borders are fluid, and constantly ebb and flow as the endless conflicts play out (one significant instance of this is when the WTO was forcing horrible policies on the world which resulted in protesters shutting down the 1999 meetings in Seattle and creating a huge, cohesive global anti-WTO movement. WTO then responds with some new outrage, and on and on). Sometimes freedom reigns, sometimes there's a Dark Age. I don't think we'll ever escape this kind of cultural pendulum, so maybe it all only works exactly the way it is?

Until the resources give out, of course...

[alligator]

Originally Posted by TVCasualty

take home some money and pay some as tax, then go to the store and pay sales tax on the money I spend that's already been taxed, and then buy gas and pay yet more tax on money that's already been taxed (and provided as a subsidy to the oil companies while they report record profits) and I'm pumping the gas into a car I paid sales tax on even though the car was used, and then I get to pay for a business license for the privilege of generating more tax revenue, and let's not forget the fees charged to process many types of payments, and the fee-fees charged to process the processing fees.

dont forget about the death tax. lol
I was in bad with the irs a few years ago and they dont f'n play. Liens, wage garnishment(i got to keep $90.01per week then the rest went towards my owed back taxes and then they TAX my $90.01 How the F&*#k am i supposed to LIVE ? ), threatening letters. I got the works. I finally had to BORROW money from family members(not from a bank the tax lien ruins your credit) to hire a lawyer. Im good now but i feel like i was raped. They treated me like that over a measly 25 g's. I think if you have a social security number your screwed as far as NOT paying taxes.

edit; Another thing is if you owe them money and even try to make payments you still get no where as they tac on so much interest you could be making payment for the rest of your life.

[TVCasualty]

Well, you can't say people don't give it the ol' college try!

In 1987, at 12:01 am on April 15th, 7,000,000 American children vanished without a trace. This is true.

One simple tax rule had been changed, namely that each reported dependent child had to have their own SS#, instead of just listing names as had been the case prior. That huge number happens to be almost 10% of all dependent children at the time!

BTW: I like to call it my "SS number" and not my "social security number" which helps me keep things in perspective. Also, I've noticed that it makes clerks kind of uncomfortable when I p