Terri Schiavo. Should they remove her feeding tube?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/18/sc...ged/index.html

I don't know if anyone has been following this case, but it has been national news so I figure that most people have heard about it. I think that they should be able to remove her feeding tube if she is in a vegetative state. I don't think most anyone would want to be kept alive in a situation like that.

-Nick

[destroy_erase_improve]

yeah its a sad case
and when you add loved ones feelings into the mix it makes decisions difficult.

there is another thread bout this topic.
which goes into a little depth about 10million dollar offers etc.

the parents believe she can get better with rehablilitation, but after a decade, im not so sure. but if i were in their shoes, i dont know what id do,

would i choose to keep her alive and keep hope and faith and not lose the one i raised from birth. or would i choose to put her to rest.

very difficult situation here.

[insight]

They should. I live close to her area, all we see in the newspaper and on the street is the protesters. She has been in PVS for like 15 years. Even if she would come out of this, she is brain-dead, how could she even function? She couldnt. I feel great sorrow for the husband and family, however, the family is making it worse on her.

[the_other_chap]

If it were me, I'd have wanted to be turned off years ago.
I wouldn't want the tubes removed though, a dose of something quick & lethal would be my choice.
I doubt if the poor woman is thinking or feeling anything, so I don't suppose it matters one way or the other, really.

I feel bad for her family as well, but I'm starting to wonder if it is a selfish act to keep her alive anymore. I know that her parents love her, but sometimes you have to take a rational approach instead of emotional.... even if love is involved. In the end, I think she will be happier when she moves on. I think that when I make a will, I am going to stipulate that I do not want to be kept alive if I am in bad shape. I don't know what the defining criteria will be, but I guess I'll have to talk about it with my kids when I have them.

[shedthemonkey]

It's just a corpse that didnt shut down right. Teri checked out of it a long time ago. It is a mercy to everyone when the body is gone.

[nomoreusmc]

so sad, why would anybody let this happen?

[SolveEtCoagula]

Originally Posted by insight

They should. I live close to her area, all we see in the newspaper and on the street is the protesters. She has been in PVS for like 15 years. Even if she would come out of this, she is brain-dead, how could she even function? She couldnt. I feel great sorrow for the husband and family, however, the family is making it worse on her.

She is not brain dead.

She has not had any therapy to encourage her recovery because her husband will not pay for it/allow it.

Her husband has not visited her in many years.

Her wheel chair has not been fixed since she broke it in the first few years she was there, so she has not been outside in ages.

She responds to things being swayed above her head following them with her eyes. (They have video)

She also shows a little emotion when her parents visit her. (They have video)

Her parents only wish to take care of her as they have been since shes been in there and pay for the therapy she needs.

They can not currently help her get treatment that may possibly help her get better because her husband won't allow any of it.

They also can't explain how she got in the situation she is in. Makes you kind of wonder if her husband doesn't want her to wake up.

A lady recently woke up and called her mom after 20 years of being in a true coma. Terri is in far better shape than she was...and she ahs had no therapy.

I see no reason for her husband not turn over custody to their parents so they can atleast try to heal her...unless of course your the reason she's the way she is.

Due the lack of value of life in today's society and selfish wants, she will probably be starved to death over several days to two weeks.

[SolveEtCoagula]

and I accidentally voted wrong heh :P

[taoistshredder]

I don't feel one way or another about this
except that I'm going to take a shot in the dark
and guess her husband knows more about her wishes
than Jeb Bush.
I'm down for keeping her alive or pulling the plug:
it's not my call, and thank Buddha.
What I have issues with is the government thinking that it's their role to do so.
I love this "we have to save the world from itself" complex
especially when it turns into babysitting every single citizen
for the sake of themselves.
And don't forget, God is on their side, so any oppostion is screwed anyway.

[SolveEtCoagula]

Originally Posted by taoistshredder

I don't feel one way or another about this
except that I'm going to take a shot in the dark
and guess her husband knows more about her wishes
than Jeb Bush.
I'm down for keeping her alive or pulling the plug:
it's not my call, and thank Buddha.
What I have issues with is the government thinking that it's their role to do so.
I love this "we have to save the world from itself" complex
especially when it turns into babysitting every single citizen
for the sake of themselves.
And don't forget, God is on their side, so any oppostion is screwed anyway.

The government gets involved when a government judge rules she be put to death.

Should her husband have rights over the parents? Thats why the government is involved.

Originally Posted by taoistshredder

I don't feel one way or another about this
except that I'm going to take a shot in the dark
and guess her husband knows more about her wishes
than Jeb Bush.

Truly a shot in the dark. I believe her parents know better than either her husband or Jeb Bush. Thats the problem here.

Jeb Bush is doing the bidding of the parents because he believes they are right. Not to mention he is conservative and values life unlike others.

[insight]

Agreed. I think if it was a matter of the insurance claim, then its a different story. The plug was supposed to be pulled a long time ago, which was ordered by the judge. Now the family is having the Govt. decide. I think the family is forgetting about the love and moral issue and turing their daughter into a political and civil debate.

[SolveEtCoagula]

Originally Posted by insight

Agreed. I think if it was a matter of the insurance claim, then its a different story. The plug was supposed to be pulled a long time ago, which was ordered by the judge. Now the family is having the Govt. decide. I think the family is forgetting about the love and moral issue and turing their daughter into a political and civil debate.

Do remember it's not a plug, it is a feeding tube. Thats what makes this case very different. She is not brain dead. She is not on a respirator. She reacts to others around her. She is a live. There is a chance of her getting better. She had no living will. No one knows what Terri wanted other than her husband 'saying' she said she wanted to die if ever in that position. The same person who will not visit her or even attempt to get her treatment.

So who really knows....

Originally Posted by SolveEtCoagula

A lady recently woke up and called her mom after 20 years of being in a true coma. Terri is in far better shape than she was...and she ahs had no therapy.

I don't think this is comparable to a comatose person. You are right, Terri is not in a true coma, but it is because she has brain damage. Doctors have said over and over again that she is in a permanent vegitative state. You don't wake up or recover from something like that. I feel like her parents are irrationally holding on to her, in order to avoid coming to terms with the loss of their daughter. I think it is becoming selfish. Sometimes you have to let someone go because you love them so much.

[taoistshredder]

"Truly a shot in the dark. I believe her parents know better than either her husband or Jeb Bush. Thats the problem here."

You're going to have to prove that one to me, because I know PLENTY of people (including my girlfriend) that know me better than my parents. Oh, they might THINK they know about me, but there's all kinds of shit we don't tell our parents that we do tell our significant other. The idea that because they spawned her they inherantly know more about her is absurdly faulty logic. I can't say who knows her better, but according to the law her spouce is allowed to make that call; now that it somehow conflicts with a governor's moral agenda, he just changes the law so that it does fit.

"Jeb Bush is doing the bidding of the parents because he believes they are right. Not to mention he is conservative and values life unlike others."

Someday someone is going to have to explain to me how these "conservatives" that harbor so much "value for life" can justify bombing abortion clinics, supporting the death penalty, support a ban of gay marriage, and whine about what other people choose to do with their lives. I guess you mean his conservative brother, the one that regards life so highly he had record numbers of executions while governor of his state. So this Jeb Bush guy, the one that's all about parents, what was his opinion of reuniting Elian Gonzales with his parent a few years back? I guess technically he didn't have one, he just said that Elian was a "child of God" and that the courts should decide what should happen to him. Funny how back in October Bush admitted he couldn't find any legal basis to stop the husband from "pulling the tube"...guess the law wasn't good enough then, but it was five years ago. How things change... VALUE LIFE!!! Or law. Or whatever suits you at the moment. And don't forget to vote Republican! How else will we all be saved from ourselves? (figured as long as we're slinging out bad rhetoric I'd join in)

[taoistshredder]

lol
rabbit
the way you're talking about this is making me think
of Lenin's shrine at Red Square
sorry, had to mention that, found it funny
lol

[I_am_me]

Maybe the husband is affraid of her being so mentally retarded she can hardly function?

Then, after therapy, after driving himself insane with hopes of her being who she once was, she is realeased to his care. He spends most of his hours during day and night tending to his vegetable wife. Sure, her parents are their with him, suffering along side him, but does that make it feel any better? It would still be his wife and his life that was ruined as well, call it selfish if you will but this could either destroy 1 life or several more, and thats if it hasn't already.

I"m just trying to express maybe his side of the story, I really have no idea what he is thinking and neither does anyone else. The doctors hardly know anything about comas too. Everyone is taking shots in the dark with a room full of people.

Originally Posted by taoistshredder

lol
rabbit
the way you're talking about this is making me think
of Lenin's shrine at Red Square
sorry, had to mention that, found it funny
lol

I'm not catching on. Should I be laughing too? haha. I hope its funny. You mean how Lenin said that he did not want to be immortalized, yet his body is?

heard on the radio on my ride home from work, that they did pull it..

[insight]

They did. She is expected to survive 7-10 days without the tube.

[Beastmaster]

Well, I guess that means she's still got a chance?

[swine]

This is a question i cannot answer, however...

I personally feel like its horrible to simply remove her feeding tube and let her slowly die.
If they want to let her go, I think that a lethal injection would be much more humane.

maybe im crazy...

[destroy_erase_improve]

how will she die from them pulling the tube. will her body die of nutrients? if so they are going to starve her to death?
will she not get certain chemicals that her organs need? until they fail?
that sounds pretty lousy imo

[SolveEtCoagula]

Yes, they will starve her to death.

But thats compassion /wink

[I_am_me]

You could argue she is starving herself.

I've never been a fan of anyone living off of life support, even close family.

My very close grandmother who passed away had a DNR order taped right on her bed at home. I find it completely unnatural and sometimes I wonder if modern medicine is trying to go to far...but I guess thats a whole nother can of worms.

[taoistshredder]

"You mean how Lenin said that he did not want to be immortalized, yet his body is?"

I don't know if he did or didn't, but yeah, I was kind of talking about the irony of how a man that represented an idea that is now very dead is continually preserved. Let it go, people...



"Yes, they will starve her to death.

But thats compassion /wink"

Like all them compassionate conservatives
hands drenched in the blood of Iraqi children.

"You could argue she is starving herself."

One could even argue that by keeping her alive
the family/government has just been extending
a massive torture session;
starving to death might be a gift in comparison
to being trapped within your mind of years,
silenty screaming at your family to just let you fucking die
but they're to self-righteous and self-absorbed to hear.
I think her husband is the only one that heard her;
maybe that's because she said something before she died,
or maybe he just knows her well enough so he knows
what she'd want.
Regardless, it is his call, and it is not up to the courts
to alter the law that exists to help the governor push
his family agenda of turning America into a cult.

[dead_diver]

A very close friend of mine died of complications from diabetes a couple years ago. He could have been kept alive for an undertermined amount of time in the hospital with tube feeding. The man made a living will when he knew he was on the way out and one of the stipulations was that he had the right to refuse treatment or feeding. When he became too weak to feed himself he refused to be tube fed and just requested pain meds and water .The man was a retired profesor and tutor and was totaly lucid at the time. He passed peacefully in a few days and I believe this very intelligent man made the right choice. As for the Terri case, I have followed it from the begining and I just don't know what I would do. All I can do is state the importance of having a living will so people will know your wants and desires towards the end of your journey.

[dead_diver]

Oh,I posted unsure not because the case needs more investigation but because I just don't know what I would want for myself ,let alone someone else in that situation.

[Hippie3]

She is not brain dead.

She has not had any therapy to encourage her recovery because her husband will not pay for it/allow it.

Her husband has not visited her in many years.

Her wheel chair has not been fixed since she broke it in the first few years she was there, so she has not been outside in ages.

She responds to things being swayed above her head following them with her eyes. (They have video)

She also shows a little emotion when her parents visit her. (They have video)

Her parents only wish to take care of her as they have been since shes been in there and pay for the therapy she needs.

They can not currently help her get treatment that may possibly help her get better because her husband won't allow any of it.

They also can't explain how she got in the situation she is in. Makes you kind of wonder if her husband doesn't want her to wake up.

A lady recently woke up and called her mom after 20 years of being in a true coma. Terri is in far better shape than she was...and she ahs had no therapy.

none of these 'points' are entirely factual.
terri has been given a great deal of therapy
over the past 15 years,
she just never responded.
she can breath on her own
but that's it,
and she was already dead
they revived her body too late
to prevent irreversible brain damage.
irreversible means terri will never get better,
she will just sit there drooling, shitting herself
for another 40-50 years if fed/watered
like a plant.
what kind of life is that ?
her husband recently
turned down a one million dollar offer
to 'buy' terri from him and
he rejected the offer.
i think that pretty clearly proves
that his motives are pure and innocent,
it would have been very easy and very popular
if he just took the $1 million
and signed terri over to her 'rents
but he did not take the bait.
i know that most folks would take the money
and dodge the controversy,
seems like a very easy way out
but he didn't take it.

[I_am_me]

Yea I thought that was crazy that someone would try and dangle money in front of him like that, sad too.

;-(

[SolveEtCoagula]

"Like all them compassionate conservatives
hands drenched in the blood of Iraqi children."

I agree fully, damn them for preventing 100's of thousands of more being shot and buried because they disagree with their government. It just wasn't worth taking the risk of accidental casualties for the greater good. That is not compassion at all. Personally I'd rather see them still being gassed and lined up for execution then some people loose their life in the name of freedom.

By the way my gas is 3$ a gallon and rising, I thought we went there for oil!

"what kind of life is that ?"

Not for me or anyone to answer but the person in that position who did not take the responsibilty her self to make her intentions known. If her husband had such true intentions then why was she on the feeding tube for so long in the first place. He didn't say he "heard her say she didn't want to live like that" for over 7 years. Why did that take so long? It's not like it took them 7 years to figure out the state she was in :P

Sorry but if your request is to not be sustained in that position you don't keep the person a live until you feel it's time for them to die after 7 years. Much less wait until she has to be starved to death in order to die.

[Hippie3]

Why did that take so long?

because it just takes a very long time
for all hope to die.
her parents have not yet begun to
come to grips with the reality after 15 years,
so why use the fact that it took him 7 years
against him like he just suddenly decided to kill her ?
i see you just
side-stepped entirely the money issue.
explain why he turned down a million bucks
and instant celebrity with the born again crowd
to instead become hated, reviled and short a million $$$.
it just makes no sense,
human behavior only stems from a few basic motivations,
money and love both are primary causes.
he proved that money is not his motive.
he doesn't need to kill terri
just to carry on with his life,
he has a new family,
he could divorce terri, take the money and move on.
instead he stands alone
against a pack of angry bible-thumpers
and those seeking to politically benefit
by catering to such.
i hope if i ever find myself in a similar situation
i too would have his strength.
it's no one else's business,
and even the bible-thumpers
are forgetting their own bible
wherein it teaches that
at marriage a person leaves their parents' care and authority
and becomes one with their chosen mate.
no one but her lawful husband has any right
to stick their noses in their business,
she entrusted her life into his care
when she married him.
her parents lost all legal claim that day.
that's the law now,
that was the law then.
to hastily enact special legislation
to sever a spouse's legal right
to make medical decisions
for their incapacitated mate
is just political opportunistic hypocrisy
and is not a road we should travel.
this is just another case
of people trying to enforce their personal
religious values on people they don't even know.

[Hippie3]

Personally I'd rather see them still being gassed and lined up for execution then some people loose their life in the name of freedom.

only as long
as it ain't yer ass in that DOA line, eh ?
that is so shallow
it hardly befits anyone minimally human.

luckily
it ain't up to you.

the gas chambers are closed
by men/women who volunteered
to lay down their life for a stranger.

jesus said there was no greater love,
then that one should lay down their life for another
and i agree with him on that count.

it's just a regretable shame
that so few are evolved far enough
to do so,
and so many are inclined to mock those who do.

i suppose they mock
because
the sacrifice of the few
shows clearly the petty selfishness
of those of us who stay behind.

[*Quagmire*]

i agree, because he knew her when she was terri his wife that he married and wheather it was even spoken or not I would hope someone would do the same for me if i was unable to move talk eat think laugh cry smile , its like being stuck , your not dead but your not really living

[SolveEtCoagula]

Originally Posted by Hippie3