Recession or Not? Are we in the next great depression?

[~Hippie3]

cheer up,
in another decade
THIS
will be
the good old days.

[substrate18]

GREED
BTW ...These are only quarterly profits.Monopoly anyone?
http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/01/news...xxon_earnings/

Conspiring together for the almighty dollar...They are enjoying every minute of it while the middle working class gets the shaft as well with salary increases not keeping up with the inflation rate

At least we have mycology eh

[~Hippie3]

plz keep your political propaganda out of threads not on topic-
this thread is NOT about the war.

[FDK]

Slightly but relative

So for those I've noticed in this thread who are up on the idea of stockpiling some supplies and homesteading 5 acres in the middle of nowhere in particular I thought I'd share knowledge of a lil' online bookstore http://www.lindsaybks.com .
They reprint old technical manuals in nearly every area you can imagine, Metalworking, Chemistry, Carpentry, Masonry, Etc, etc.
One set of their books (Many do, but this ones my favorite) "Experiments Science" goes into pretty good detail on constructing your own labware.
Also a copy of "Wagners Chemical Tecnology circa. 1872" has endless amounts of useful information to those with some acerage and common sense.
Blacksmithing books galore, Welding manuals, DIY Books on alternative fuel like Hydrogen, Solar, Wind etc. And of course a few books on homesteading.

Our Society has alot of concern for reducing our dependance on foriegn sources of Oil and whatnot, I've simply taken it a step further personaly and decided to reduce my dependance on Society. Well ok, Doctors & Auto makers are hard to do without but on the large, the Rat Race we live in has always nauseated me and this current fiscal fiasco which as some have stated simply a tool the wealthy bastards can use to push the serfs back down where they belong on the financial foodchain has been the final flag for me, time to get off the grid. time for DIY and GYO. Mabey I'm just being neurotic, but I'm a harmless & happy neurotic who appreciates the satisfaction that comes when you not only eat a meal of food you've grown yourself, but use utensils you've forged yourself, from Iron you've smelted yourself under electric lights powered by solar panels you've fabricated yourself. True, if the man-hours involved in all this were tallied the $ cost would be outrageous, but considering that these are hours I would have otherwise spent fruitlessly searching for a job which even if I found it would only provide me with enough income to ensure I had enough food to survive and about enough gas to be sure I could make it back to work the next day to slave away and make someone else more wealthy than I,, I feel it time well spent.

Sorry if my info for Lindsays turned into a Rantus Gigantus, I just needed to let that out, if a Mod feels the need to cut it, please do so after the first smilie.

[~Hippie3]

so,
you have your own iron mine ?

[FDK]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

so,
you have your own iron mine ?

Well not as of yet, but the area I live in is loaded with deposits of base metals like Iron & Lead as well as fire clay. Even the Sandstone around here is loaded with Iron oxide which can be smelted out with enough carbon added (But considering the abundance of easily available scrap metal it's not worth bothering on a large scale, just a fun thing on my "to-do" list).
Currently I'm working a 15'x15' area of ground on the 2 acres I'm on, digging up clay for building a refractory furnace. I'll be able to use this to either smelt fresh ore or re-melt / re-alloy scrap metals. I've got about 150 lbs of raw clay in the week I've been at it, kinda slow work as theres lots of good sized sandstone boulders slowing me down (and I'm not rushing in this heat) but the 20lb. spike maul and big ole' pick axe are getting me thru them slowly, trying to roll them out when I can as they're a nice size for building with (2'x2'x2' and up). And once I'm done with the pit I think it'll be quite nice for cultivating errrr, "button mushrooms"

And all that sandstone, basicly silica. Once pulverized and cleaned up of impurities (Or if I get lucky & find a vein of pure-ish silica), into the furnace it goes (After some modifications to the furnace and furniture inside it) where it gets reformed into a large silica crystal, when slabbed and doped, it becomes a solar cell. I'm sure they wont be as efficient or perfectly fabricated as a store-bought solar panel, but I wont be handing out any cash to get them OR I may try a novel lil' idea I found from the early 1900's when most things were run on a battery. Seems they would take a series of copper plates and Zinc plates and bury them parallel, wired up like the plates in a leyden jar (Old battery) and just let the rain act as a shoddy electrolyte. Crazy huh? I'd like to make the panels just for the sake of doing it really but there are so many viable sources for powering ones home, like using the old-school solar panel which just heats water, then pumping that to a sterling engine (Runs due to temperature differentials) which would then spin my turbine.

Yes, all LOTS of work but it's keeping me occupied & out of trouble (Not to mention, in-shape)

Oh, and the pulverised sandstone mixed with pulverized flint and other additives when introduced into the furnace, Flint glass for labware

If I've sparked your interest let me know & mabey I can scan some stuff up for ya'. (Decent sized lil' library of technical know-how on hand)

[substrate18]

DELETED- YOU WERE WARNED ALREADY.
NEXT IS A BAN.

[aumbrellaforainydays]

lots of raw material around to scavenge these days, if you know where to look. who needs mines when you can have a grove of your own fast growing hardwoods to replenish your eating utensils.

[FDK]

Well not to knock on wood, but have you ever tried making a sharp Steak knife or a bread knife out of Oak or Hickory? Might be good for Salad forks and Soup spoons but my diet requires being cut up by sharp objects, often serrated.
I know the Incans and Aztec's had wooden edged weapons with serrations in the edge, but these were still used with a good deal of force to deliver the blow.
Nothing quite as sharp as well honed steel.

By wanting to get off the grid, I dont mean I want to turn my life into a constant camping trip or live as Native americans did 300 years ago, I want my creature comforts to remain as-is as much as possible but this means first off having the ability to supply myself as much as possible with the base resources I need.

[aumbrellaforainydays]

you know if u cook you're meat right, marinated, smoked and sizzled, you might not even need a metal knife. i mean i knew a damn good carpenter or woodsmith who could make a really nice set of utensils which could be serrated and cut meat up. on the other hand i agree, who wants to live without metal or a widescreen LCD? thats why invest in a nice solar panel or a get one of those ride-your-bike generators.

[FDK]

I think you just dont like the idea of digging

[Oblivion]

Chopsticks!

[Theodore Blass]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

so get in the TP business.
;P

Or the mortuary business

[Lazlo]

Listen to this from Clyde Simpson of Reuters.


"In the Swiss paper SonntagsZeitung, an article references a "confidential" study by the hedge fund Bridgewater which asserts that the losses for banks holding risky assets could be four times greater than the 400 BLN USD previously estimated. In other words Bridgewater is suggesting that the losses would amount to USD1.6 TLN if they were marked to market rather than valued in the form of securitization. The Bridgewater report expressed doubts that the banks and other financial institutions would be able to raise enough funds to cover losses of that magnitude. If this report is even half right, then expect the FTQ bid to linger longer and perhaps potentially paralyse the Fed in its fight against inflation for fear of a rate rise triggering a deep recession."

Not good! I'm curious to see how the markets open up tomorrow morning on this news. I hate to say it, but i'm in the hole a good bit with a USD cross and could use a generous rebound.

i have been an avid student of financial markets from as long as i could comprehend the idea of buying and selling stocks. I have always found the financial markets fascinating. We are facing the biggest drop in the stock market since the great depression. The tone of the financial news is much different than it ever has been. The people (cnbc, foxnews, wtc) who do the financial analysis are shrill and befuddled. This is something new. Hysterics reign right now. Just watch the financial news on cnbc after closing bell on Monday. It will be good entertainment.

If you would like to make money buy general motors stock short (bet against it) they will be bankrupt and parceled out within 2 years. I have already made over $ 2,000 by pouring the last of my measley retirement account into a short position on GM in only two weeks. I know someone who works deep in the heart of gm. There is no way that they can efectively retool to meet market demands and their SUV, truck, obsolete cars will sit collecting dist on lots. They are allready planning to gut and run.

We are entering a awesome new age of financial possibiltiy for when one door closes another opens, i dont imagine all has lost, the most usefill paradigms have shifted. Guidong principles remain the same the game changes, principled folks wil adapt and prosper.

Whats valuable ina n economy that no longetr makes anything? whats the easiest hokme run to hit ? We go back to production possibly.....

[Lazlo]

I watch CNBC religiously. Starting at around 7am to a little past the closing bell when Fast Money is on. After that i'm done with it.

GM is a strange one to me. I'm not so sure i'd be shorting GM too much further, although the price is around that of 1955 at the moment and doesn't seem to have hit a decent support level yet. I just can't see it dipping too much more. I suppose if I were to mess with it, it would be on the short side for sure. I do know they're counting on the Volt to make a lot of money, but are having battery problems. They're hoping the battery problems get worked out eventually and are moving forward with the vehicle. GM always did make a P.O.S. vehicle and that indeed did catch up with them. I don't mess around with stocks anymore. I fooled with stocks since I was 16 years old. I had gotten some for a gift, so I started with buying up stocks when ever I was able to. In the years of me messing with stocks, I made more money in the first 2 hours of currency trading than I ever did with stocks. Currency trading is exciting once you get the technical analysis down. Then the rest is standard economics. Technical analysis is very key in currency trading. It's a trip for sure. A depressing and stressful one when you make a terrible mistake like I did last week.

[G-Money]

"Money isn't lost or made, it is simply transferred"
-Gordon Gecko

Now sounds like a good time to become a commercial real estate agent and move to Dubai.

[Oblivion]

Tell that to the Federal Reserve.....

America is bieng bled dry

we have more money leaving our country than comes in

Oil - all the money we use to buy oil goes out of country

People -who come here form other countries send their money to relatives out of the country.

There is great transfer of wealth going on, sadly its out of the USA to most of the oil & merchandise producing countries in the world.

Soon, no one will want the dollar, because it is backed by nothing.

We have been sold to the highest bidder. Sadly we were sold by our own government who made it more affordable for us to buy goods rather than make them.

By opening our borders and NAFTA "free trade" we have insured that things are going to get worse. In order to compete with cheap Mexican labor Americans need to be ready to endure almost slave labor like conditions that the Mexican laborer endures. This is necessary so that we can produce goods and services for the same cost.

If we were able to place steep taxes and tariffs on incoming and outgoing goods we might be able to start making some stuff locally and getting paid for it. Until then we are forced to match the lowest bidder.

we should confiscate all the money that the richest 1% of the American population has under "suspicion of high crimes" just like the cops do to suspected drug dealers. Then we make them prove to us how they haven't hurt or broke law to get their money. Lets rise up and take back whats been conned out of us by bullying lawyers politicians and business men.

[~Hippie3]

confiscate is just a fancy word for
steal.

if we did what you urge
we'd enter the worst depression ever seen
as every bank, business, professional
runs for the border .

no money to borrow,
no nation would trust us,
there'd be no one to buy our goods.
it's going back to the 1917 Russian Revolution
and communism-
you would free us from fat-cat bankers
only to enslave us to the government.

' they came first for the rich bankers, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a rich banker;

And then they came for the oil executives, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t an oil exec;

And then they came for the lawyers, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a lawyer;

And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up.'

total disaster.

[BoredMan]

Of course we are headed for a depression but no one seems to really care or know anything about it. The number one focus on people's mind is the fucking war in Iraq. They seem to care more about the future of that country than our own. Hopefully the democrats will get in office before its too late. They aren't much of a hope but will be better than what we have now, they might try to focus on helping the country as a whole instead of the republicans select few.

[~Hippie3]

yeah, right.
i've seen the dems run the show before,
it was the same old shit.
all talk.
don't count on the dems saving your ass,
they have no fucking clue on what to do
because no one does,
crazy train out of control.
no one has the power or wisdom needed.
it's beyond human ability, just too complex.

[Mario]

Let's all be amish!

[~Hippie3]

after you...

[beautypath]

All the signs of a recession are present: People losing their homes, food and energy prices increasing, a decline in the value of money, unemployment, disrepair of infra-structure, etc.

We are living in an age comparable to the Roman Empire circa 200 AD. The system is failing but there is so much momentum that we like the Romans will probably weather this latest blow to our country. The barbarians ( the Chinese ) are at the gates but so far have been too awed by us to claim the world as their own. Once they ( the Chinese ) figure out how to call in all the debt we owe them without bankrupting the U.S. and themselves, they will be in control and America will become a second rate world power. Some one above indicated that Americans will be slaving away like Mexicans to make ends meet and they are right. We have squandered our opportunity to be a first class country by arrogantly assuming we are too mighty to fall. We have refused to invest in renewable energy, repair our roads, bridges and cities ( New Orleans ) and respect the environment.

Just like the Romans, those who have their castle paid off, have their own food and energy sources will be alright. The poor will have to become the new serfs.

[~Hippie3]

nice dramatic writing
but we are nothing like rome,
the chinese aren't barbarians
and the poor have always worked
for the rich.
btw
trivia-
the romans did not build castles,
castles came about in the Middle Ages
long after the fall of the roman empire.
methinks
if you are using history to make a point
then you'd do well to get it right.

[Lazlo]

We could be heading for deep, deep trouble.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...JNc&refer=home

http://www.bloomberg.com/avp/avp.htm...SBVu4jp7qY.asf

[Lazlo]

For those not familiar with Dr. Roubini (Dr. Doom)-


Two years ago, Nouriel Roubini predicted the current economic crisis. Now he sees things becoming far worse.

BY STEPHEN MIHM

Published: August 15, 2008, New York Times Sunday Magazine

On Sept. 7, 2006, Nouriel Roubini, an economics professor at New York University, stood before an audience of economists at the International Monetary Fund and announced that a crisis was brewing. In the coming months and years, he warned, the United States was likely to face a once-in-a-lifetime housing bust, an oil shock, sharply declining consumer confidence and, ultimately, a deep recession. He laid out a bleak sequence of events: homeowners defaulting on mortgages, trillions of dollars of mortgage-backed securities unraveling worldwide and the global financial system shuddering to a halt. These developments, he went on, could cripple or destroy hedge funds, investment banks and other major financial institutions like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

The audience seemed skeptical, even dismissive. As Roubini stepped down from the lectern after his talk, the moderator of the event quipped, “I think perhaps we will need a stiff drink after that.” People laughed — and not without reason. At the time, unemployment and inflation remained low, and the economy, while weak, was still growing, despite rising oil prices and a softening housing market. And then there was the espouser of doom himself: Roubini was known to be a perpetual pessimist, what economists call a “permabear.” When the economist Anirvan Banerji delivered his response to Roubini’s talk, he noted that Roubini’s predictions did not make use of mathematical models and dismissed his hunches as those of a career naysayer.

But Roubini was soon vindicated. In the year that followed, subprime lenders began entering bankruptcy, hedge funds began going under and the stock market plunged. There was declining employment, a deteriorating dollar, ever-increasing evidence of a huge housing bust and a growing air of panic in financial markets as the credit crisis deepened. By late summer, the Federal Reserve was rushing to the rescue, making the first of many unorthodox interventions in the economy, including cutting the lending rate by 50 basis points and buying up tens of billions of dollars in mortgage-backed securities. When Roubini returned to the I.M.F. last September, he delivered a second talk, predicting a growing crisis of solvency that would infect every sector of the financial system. This time, no one laughed. “He sounded like a madman in 2006,” recalls the I.M.F. economist Prakash Loungani, who invited Roubini on both occasions. “He was a prophet when he returned in 2007.”

Over the past year, whenever optimists have declared the worst of the economic crisis behind us, Roubini has countered with steadfast pessimism. In February, when the conventional wisdom held that the venerable investment firms of Wall Street would weather the crisis, Roubini warned that one or more of them would go “belly up” — and six weeks later, Bear Stearns collapsed. Following the Fed’s further extraordinary actions in the spring — including making lines of credit available to selected investment banks and brokerage houses — many economists made note of the ensuing economic rally and proclaimed the credit crisis over and a recession averted. Roubini, who dismissed the rally as nothing more than a “delusional complacency” encouraged by a “bunch of self-serving spinmasters,” stuck to his script of “nightmare” events: waves of corporate bankrupticies, collapses in markets like commercial real estate and municipal bonds and, most alarming, the possible bankruptcy of a large regional or national bank that would trigger a panic by depositors. Not all of these developments have come to pass (and perhaps never will), but the demise last month of the California bank IndyMac — one of the largest such failures in U.S. history — drew only more attention to Roubini’s seeming prescience.

As a result, Roubini, a respected but formerly obscure academic, has become a major figure in the public debate about the economy: the seer who saw it coming. He has been summoned to speak before Congress, the Council on Foreign Relations and the World Economic Forum at Davos. He is now a sought-after adviser, spending much of his time shuttling between meetings with central bank governors and finance ministers in Europe and Asia. Though he continues to issue colorful doomsday prophecies of a decidedly nonmainstream sort — especially on his popular and polemical blog, where he offers visions of “equity market slaughter” and the “Coming Systemic Bust of the U.S. Banking System” — the mainstream economic establishment appears to be moving closer, however fitfully, to his way of seeing things. “I have in the last few months become more pessimistic than the consensus,” the former Treasury secretary Lawrence Summers told me earlier this year. “Certainly, Nouriel’s writings have been a contributor to that.”

[Lazlo]

Ooops, that was the wrong video.

http://www.bloomberg.com/avp/avp.htm...UV7PR4JGX8.asf

[Looky]

Well Greenspan said that the economy is the worst he's seen it in his lifetime. He then went on to say that it is worse than it has been in a 100 years and it's worse than the depression even.

[seedlessstinky1]

So where do we go with this? WE THE PEOPLE. (not entirely true anymore these days but the statement stands) What is our next step? Keep going to the same job? Get a new one? Sell the house? Or is it just best to hold on to our asses and hope that as hippie said "This too shall pass." I dunno im too young to remember the 70's for damn sure not the 20's and 30's, although reading up on the topics and actually digging my history classes as a lad, i am glad i wasnt around.
I have noticed a major drop in economy this year. My dad owns his own real estate company and houses just wont sell for shit right now. My brothers tryin to sell his house, aint havin no luck. I was gonna buy it but then i'd be fucked off in the wallet for an eternity. (not to mention i know where the party'd be suddenly). Maybe its just me but i swear my bank has been f***ing me over lately, well i know they have cause they fixed some of it once i called. I really enjoyed reading this thread, seems we share the same ideas, and even if we dont its always interesting to hear the other side of the fence. I dunno im jsut gonna hold on til i get the golden ticket to wonka land.....damn.

[Lazlo]

AIG may be next to go bankrupt.

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsO...51938520080915

[seedlessstinky1]

yeah theres a thing on yahoo that says some shit about wallstreet in a crisis....we really are screwed...time to head for the hills.

[Lazlo]

Not yet, but not looking good. It started off as they needed to raise 40b in capital. Now it has risen to 70b! Stock markets plummeted in the latter session. Dow's down 504 points. Huge sell off! Not looking good at all. Lots of banks on the chopping block too. FDIC says 140 institutions are in crisis. Roubini says that figure can easily rise to 2-3 hundred institutions. Bankrupt, gone.

[seedlessstinky1]

yeah, that sucks. What are we gonna do if it all does crash, i mean will that really set us that far back in our history. That is the question i still have. I'm sure in sense it will. But wouldnt that stimulate our economy in a sense, if local farming is picked back up and we rely on ourselves more. It may bring complete caos or it may have some sort of order and good meaning to it...However that is me outside the box tryin to gaze innnnn.

[Lazlo]

I can't see a crash coming on, but the ripple effects of all of this is going to massive. The counter party losses associated with Lehman, the share holding losses for Fannie and Freddy (Lehman was the majority stock holder in Fannie, 74m shares down the tubes once nationalized). Not to mention the poor share holders that lost their shares. Hedge funds being pulverized with Merrill Lynch being bought by B of A. Hedge funds and other financials loosing billions on sliding commodity prices. More and more credit problems to come and come. Big fucking problems. Not to mention AIG's on the chopping block as well.

[mestophilies]

I am in the jewelry business. Gold has gone up, down, all the fuck around this last year. People here are saying OMG it just hit $900. an oz! All I can say is well... yeah so? It did it in the '80s also. I have to agree with Hip. This too will pass. I am fairly young and don't remember the '70s having been born in the later part of them. I do love history though, and this ain't nearly as bad as it CAN get. The day I am sending my 3 girls out diggin for grubs for dinner I will say shit is bad. One of the smartest things a person can do IMO? Learn a trade, not anything spectacular like cosmic mighty computer programmer, learn to fix a persons car, their watch, their rings, their shit. Even in a depression people will pay to have things fixed if they can't do it themselves. Sure joe sixpack can't buy a new tiller but he sure will get it fixed! And of course if worse does turn to worse I know of a likely cave not to far from my home and me and mine have plenty of artillery. All joking aside it is a scary time but we will come through. IMO the absolute worst that could come of this is a revolution of sorts (not that I am saying to go take down the govt!) and that may not be such a bad thing.
Oh yeah and buy a horse or donkey. They just need hay and water maybe a few oats no gas tank though!

[Lazlo]

I think everyone is well aware that it'll pass, but when? How severe will or can things get? Those are the questions to be answered in the next few months to a year as the negatives and positives start to show up.

[~Hippie3]

there's a lot to be said for self-sufficiency in times like these.
glad i can catch fish, fowl and game here, plenty of firewood and water,
a garden by spring and some livestock
and i'm setting ok
when/if shit goes down.

[Lefty]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

yeah, right.
i've seen the dems run the show before,
it was the same old shit.
all talk.
don't count on the dems saving your ass,
they have no fucking clue on what to do
because no one does,
crazy train out of control.
no one has the power or wisdom needed.
it's beyond human ability, just too complex.

I don't think I've ever seen it put any more concise. The collective "we" have created something with a life of it's very own, no one can fully understand or is even close to in total control yet have given grave abilities to individuals and it's scary as fuck.

[~Hippie3]

nice new avatar, lefty.
to whores!

[Lefty]

Thanks Just one of the faithful

[eatyualive]

Originally Posted by BoredMan

Of course we are headed for a depression but no one seems to really care or know anything about it. The number one focus on people's mind is the fucking war in Iraq. They seem to care more about the future of that country than our own. Hopefully the democrats will get in office before its too late. They aren't much of a hope but will be better than what we have now, they might try to focus on helping the country as a whole instead of the republicans select few.

dems got no balls. they can't fix this mess. im not real sure anyone can. regardless of whos elected i don't think this will be a quick cleanup. there is no easy solution to this problem. i think after this 8 year term is over, we will see the consequences for 20 or more years. sad to say. the good days may be over...

[Lazlo]

Neither one of the major party candidates are worth a shit sadly, so don't get your hopes up with the b.s. "change" bit they're piping. I suppose that people forget that politics actually is scientific and does require a process of thought to make a solid, non biased decision.

Goofballs aside, it appears AIG is seeking help from the Fed because the private sector help isn't there. Washington Mutual is next on the chopping block. Wachovia could be there as well.

[eatyualive]

Originally Posted by Lazlo

Neither one of the major party candidates are worth a shit sadly, so don't get your hopes up with the b.s. "change" bit they're piping. I suppose that people forget that politics actually is scientific and does require a process of thought to make a solid, non biased decision.

Goofballs aside, it appears AIG is seeking help from the Fed because the private sector help isn't there. Washington Mutual is next on the chopping block. Wachovia could be there as well.

word...

its not looking good wow!

[Oblivion]

Counting on either party is the rooster counting on the fox keeping the hens safe from the wolves. Either way, the hens are fucked by the rooster, the fox or the wolves. We are fucked in equal terms.

[xerimyco]

Originally Posted by floppypeter

we should confiscate all the money that the richest 1% of the American population has under "suspicion of high crimes" just like the cops do to suspected drug dealers. Then we make them prove to us how they haven't hurt or broke law to get their money. Lets rise up and take back whats been conned out of us by bullying lawyers politicians and business men.

What a disgusting sentiment. You would have felt right at home during the Cultural Revolution in China, or the Khmer Rouge of Cambodia.

[xerimyco]

Whether we are in a recession or not right now is a matter of legitimate debate. I don't think we are. I'm one of those "two consecutive quarters of negative GDP growth" guys. I do admit that commodity prices (very high right now) have to be factored in too, though.

To compare today's economy to that of the Great Depression, though, shows an ignorance of history. Study up on it. We aren't even close.

[Jigalow]

American Civil war due to Recession in 2012? yah or nay?


Sidenote:

The work of Harvard law professor Elizabeth Warren indicates there is a coming collapse of the middle class. Warren compares the median American family of 1970 versus that of 2003. She unpacks why our savings rate has dropped to zero from a rather healthy 11 percent of take-home pay in 1970, even as the family added mom as a breadwinner.

She says that Americans are actually spending far less in inflation-adjusted dollars for things like clothes and food, including eating out, than they did in 1970. What has substantially changed, Warren reports, is the cost of big-ticket, fixed expenses.

Housing costs for a medium-size house... have increased 76 percent. Health insurance costs are up 74 percent. Also up sharply are taxes (due to the second income), child care and car-related expenses. Americans keep a car more than two years longer than they did 30 years ago, but they now need two cars to get to two jobs.

[kswissbob]

think this is going to even help at all?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7628578.stm