Whats the solution for gas prices?

[TVCasualty]

Originally Posted by bugs

HHO is two atoms of hydrogen and one of oxygen. H2O. Water. The author of that illustration either made a mistake, doesn't know what he's talking about, or is a shyster.

Also, if you're using juice from the battery, it needs to be replaced by engine power. Minus mechanical inefficiencies. Net gain is a loss.

It just doesn't add up.

But from what I've read so far, the algae look really promising. I'm impressed.

HHO is non-scientific shorthand that's been used a long time to denote water split into it's elements, but it's usually been in the context of a fictitious state of matter called magnegases, which are made of magnecules. Most of the cars that "run on water!!" are descendants of this original discredited concept. There needs to be a better term for discussing this stuff since the associations are so negative (and rightfully so).

Anyhow, the H2/O2 gas is produced by excess capacity of the alternator, not the battery. The theory is that once you start your car, and after the battery is fully charged (saturated), the alternator will still be producing current. Even if running several electrical loads (A/C, lights, radio), most automotive alternators provide 70-100 amps of power which is plenty to handle them. Roughly 2 amps are required to maintain the proper field current (this is controlled by a voltage regulator). The field current determines the output voltage at the stator, and since we want that to be 12 volts the regulator varies the field current as needed to maintain that number.

Since the H2/O2 generator is claimed to draw only a few amps (1-3), the alternator is well within it's capacity to run your car's electrical system and supply the gas generator. The more current we draw off our alternator, the more the field current needs to be increased, and this results in 'resistance' against turning the alternator. Here the resistance is physical, not electrical. I built a battery charger using an alternator and an old mountain bike (using a belt around the rear wheel attached to the alternator). I was cranking along happily for awhile, thinking "Wow this is so easy, look how fast I can spin it!" Then I tested the battery and saw no voltage gain at all. I'd forgotten to attach the field current wire, which I mounted to a switch so I could turn it on or off. When I had it all together correctly, I got on and started pedaling. When I had the RPM's fairly high, I flipped the switch and it was suddenly hard to maintain even a quarter of the RPM's I could with the switch off. But I was finally charging my battery!

The above experience is the basis of my questions about this gas generator. As I draw more power from the alternator (even a few amps), an increase in the field current is required, though as we can see this is a very small amount compared to the resultant output (otherwise alternators would not work at all). So if the numbers add up, this gas generator will work in the sense that H2 and O2 will be produced by electrolysis and the car's battery will not be drained in the process (so long as the engine is running).

What is less clear is if the amperage drawn by the jar is sufficient to produce enough gas to make any real difference at all. At 2000 RPM, a 2.5 liter engine sucks in 2500 liters of air/fuel mix every minute. What I would like to know is if it's possible to create enough gas fast enough with this system to make a difference, or maybe if the H2/O2 gas is powerful enough to have a measurable effect at such small ratios.

[Hippie3]

i can easily say no,
i've seen water broken into gas by household electric current
and it's just a trickle of gas bubbles coming off,
nowhere near enough nor fast enough to be useful .

[TVCasualty]

Originally Posted by Lazlo

The algae thing is really neat. But the main problem I see with it is producing enough of it to worth wile. The up and running costs would be out of sight. Although, once a rig large enough to mass produce oil was up and running, it would pay for itself in a short time. The guy I saw on t.v. said that if he had the funds to get a rig up and running that covered the deserts of Arizona, enough oil from that facility alone could produce the U.S.'s yearly oil use.

Compared with soybeans or switchgrass, algae is far more efficient. The initial capital required is vast, but the output is two orders of magnitude greater than soy and one greater than switchgrass.

Since tanks and other components are required for growing/processing algae, and this algae is producing bio-crude, my futuristic fantasy vision is to combine this tech with the emerging reprap tech to make self-replicating fuel factories. Oil from the starter facility is used to make the plastic for the components of the 2nd facility, and the equipment is powered by the bio-crude as well. The first thing people are supposed to do who build a reprap is program it to replicate itself and hook up a friend with one.

If there's a genuine, sustainable solution capable of being scaled up to the level required to address the currently degenerating energy situation, this may well be it. Self replicating bio-refineries, no longer science fiction...

[Hippie3]

we really don't need fuel for every type of energy need.
electricity is what we need,
power the grid with nuclear
and there's plenty of oil/ethanol, biodiesel, etc.
to run tractors, trucks, etc.

[Lazlo]

The guy I saw on t.v. had several dozen clear things that looked like this, hung up filled with water growing the algae in them.



He has several strains of algae that produce oil abundantly pattened as well.

[Hippie3]

forget which one but recently a major airline announced they were switching their fleet over to algae-fuel source.

[Lazlo]

Did you guys hear this morning that a minister from Israel said that "an attack on Iran's nuclear program is inevitable".?

Shit may hit the fan over there soon enough. Crude oil prices sure did jump after that came out.

[Hippie3]

yeah, yesterday while visiting japan
iran's president called israel a rotten corpse
and told japan to prepare for a world with no USA.
with israel holding 100-150 nukes
and the USA holding several thousand more
i'd guess the world might need to learn
how to get by without an iran.

[TVCasualty]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

i can easily say no,
i've seen water broken into gas by household electric current
and it's just a trickle of gas bubbles coming off,
nowhere near enough nor fast enough to be useful .

That was my initial thought as well. The vids on the sites show a vigorous amount of bubbling, and they use coiled stainless steel wires along with electrolyte added to the water (sodium hydroxide) but that didn't seem to be enough to me, though the lye does increase the rate of the reaction quite a bit.

Oh, and I read several criticisms of it that when you electrolyze w/ stainless steel, you separate the chromium from the steel and that could be hazardous. Some of the chromium is in the form of Cr(IV), which is very carcinogenic when inhaled. This might be coming out of the tailpipe of vehicles running these jar systems, so don't tailgate anyone who uses one until some testing is done! Most chromium evolved is Cr(III) which is far less toxic and is an essential nutrient in small amounts, though can cause asthma attacks in susceptible individuals when inhaled.

The water left in the jar may in fact be classifiable as hazardous waste, and if dumped down a drain could pollute groundwater. Cr(IV) contamination of groundwater was the issue that Erin Brockovich fought PG&E over in the now-famous class action lawsuit that was settled for $333 million.

[Lazlo]

Ahmadinejad is a piece of trash. He was brought in to fix Iran's economic troubles, but has done nothing further from that. He needs to be x-nayed for sure. Screw him.

[aumbrellaforainydays]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

we really don't need fuel for every type of energy need.
electricity is what we need,
power the grid with nuclear
and there's plenty of oil/ethanol, biodiesel, etc.
to run tractors, trucks, etc.

well what do we do with the nuclear waste?...

store it for a million years over a fault line under a mountain in a concrete bunker that is only designed for 100,000 years?
what if it fills up? store it in the yukon, antarctica, pluto?

[Hippie3]

the new design reactors produce very little waste

and since it came out of the ground
back into it seems apropos

further nuke power has no carbon footprint,
no greenhouse gas emissions.

besides, ONLY 100,000 years ???
that's a very long time.

[eastwood]

Better figure something.Oil hit $139 a barrel today.( new trading record )

[Lazlo]

Morgan Stanley speculates $150 by July 4.

[rockawayrooms]

Originally Posted by Lazlo

Morgan Stanley speculates $150 by July 4.

Man that's just fucking insane

[Fresh Brewed]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

we really don't need fuel for every type of energy need.
electricity is what we need,
power the grid with nuclear
and there's plenty of oil/ethanol, biodiesel, etc.
to run tractors, trucks, etc.

I agree...Nuclear has it's issues, but I think it's whats needed to bridge us to the next energy revolution...whatever that turns out to be.

[WilliamsEyeLophori]

we need to rely less on transportation and energy, the industrial revolution was 200 years ago, lets admit the last 200 years were a HUGE mistake. HEMP (industryial) was destroyed to increase proffit for tree masacer and petrolium, thank HEarst and DUpont for that!
become self reliant and help those in need that way the good people will survive, when the oil industry fails, the gov will fall apart ifit has not come up with a new source of power, then we can take orders from our true LEADER, our wonderfull planet EARTH.

[WilliamsEyeLophori]

i should add WE ARE ALL SCREWED!! thanks alot industrial revolution
guess il just try and be happy, and try to do no more damage
(not to happy though, peopl dont like that)
what are you so happy about!!!! damnit
cheer up your dprssing me

[EsotericLucidity]

Originally Posted by aumbrellaforainydays

well what do we do with the nuclear waste?...

store it for a million years over a fault line under a mountain in a concrete bunker that is only designed for 100,000 years?

Very little waste sounds promising, but is it still too much waste?
We haven't had near the time to evolve as dinosaurs did. Humanity could live for that long and end up having to leave Earth because of a 100,000 year old fuck up.


This gas/oil problem is just part of an age dying!

[Algae]

Lazlo;i come from a farming family.if you started up from nothing to raise a crop of corn to be used for alcohol fuel first you would need a bank loan to purchase capital goods ,tractors ,harvesters ,silos etc. we are talking millions even on a small scale.just google the price of one harvester if dont believe me.water cost in agriculture almost equal oil .water is blue gold.corn takes more water per acre than rice.then add fuel costs .if you think you get shitty mileage take a 4 ton tractor pulling a plow.now ad in all those laborers our mexican slaves.even slaves cost even though you treat them like shit and bath them in pesticide. yes i was there they work as crop duster lay down the poison. with algae you have none of this.one fifth the water.thats it because it is a closed system.you recover most water.no heavy equipment,no large pesticide .the world population is in a near crisis .once starvation breaks out Hitlers ,Stalins,Maos will make more sense to the starving.this crap of democracy will fall shallow on the hungry .we dont even have democracy in this country we have a representative republic

[Lazlo]

I completely agree with you. Corn to be used as ethanol is a total waste. Besides, the prices of it too falls and rises along with the prices of fuel. More efficient ways for the production of ethanol are out there, there just needs to be someone that will take the lead in getting the ball rolling. Exxon/Mobil and the other fuel suppliers need to start thinking and investing in renewable energies and ethanol, instead of pocketing the massive profits. Greedy bastards.

[aumbrellaforainydays]

big dog carts (greyhound, husky, german shepard...)
domestic cheetah or ostrich chariots

we need parking places for animals like the ol' west, where i coulda gallop'd t'town an gaht me a'whisky, meybe winame som coin on blackjack hopefully don havta pull my six shoota on som bandit who ow'd me money.

[Hippie3]

then we'd have to worry about all the methane produced by many million more such animals...
methane is worse greenhouse gas than co2 .

[Walls Have Teeth]

If only we lived in small, self sufficient communities that relied on trade and not money. Where we knew where all our food came from, where we actually KNEW the people in our town and kindness towards one another was an actual practice, and where we walked most everywhere enjoying the scenery and taking life on at a slower pace.

Last Fall for a seven week period, I lived in the woods with a group of five friends. We ate rice and lentils for dinner, and oats for breakfast, and used purified stream water and snow for drinking water. We started all our fires by friction ( Bow or hand drill), wasting no fuel. That seven weeks I NEVER knew the time, nor touched a cell or computer, or had any contact with anyone outside of the circle of us five people.

That way of living was an awesome experience, and ideal for me... it was depressing coming home to rising gas prices to live with capitalists. I know a lot of people wouldn't like that way of life, but damn was it refreshing and cleansing.

There is so much talk about new fuel resources, I hope one actually pulls through... it would seem oil companies would fight like hell to terminate them though. Hopefully we will find a new efficient fuel source that wont get raped like oil did. For the meantime I ride a motorcycle, it gets way better gas mileage than I would hope to get in a car.

[TVCasualty]

They're starting to tap coal-bed methane near where I live. That's bad freakin' news, at least it is to creatures that like to drink clean water, and that's before talking about any greenhouse gas issues.

I'm wondering when things like zoning, building codes and traffic laws will start to erode. In many countries, where fuel is insanely expensive and sometimes not available, you'll see the roads covered with all sorts of vehicles: cars and trucks, carts, sometimes donkeys and horses too, scooters and bicycles all in the mix together. It looks insane to us (see video), but this is probably the future of traffic (the chaos if not the speed).



It'll be the same with building codes. People will do what they have to do, and eventually code enforcement will fall apart out of necessity. Livestock in the suburbs, front lawns converted to pasture or crops, outbuildings and barns built with scrap wood gathered from buildings torn up by recent tornadoes, people digging shallow wells in their formerly upscale "covenant enforced" gated communities (and posting real, armed guards at those gates), etc...


Knowing this kind of thing is coming allows one to position oneself in an advantageous position, like by acquiring the tools and equipment that will be in high demand in that context: non-electric and non-motorized farm tools, passive solar anything, woodworking hand tools, horses (mules, donkeys, etc), basically sturdy stuff that doesn't need gasoline or electricity to operate and who's functions we take for granted now.

[Hippie3]

war will erupt across the planet before america goes without gas-
bet on that.

p.s. that video is crazy man.

[Doctor D]

I am always hearing one of the prime reasons that the price of oil is so high is that the dollar is so weak. If this is true, I have to wonder why Bush's government has not pursued a stronger dollar monetary policy? Are they such believers in market forces that they will let the country and the world go to hell in a handbasket just to allow the dollar to pursue its "natural course"?

To me, it seems quite reckless.

[Hippie3]

actually there are advantages
such as reducing the real national debt.
let's say we owe country A a billion dollars that we borrowed in 2005.
the biliion we repay in 2008 is worth less in absolute terms
than the billion we borrowed
thus we accrue a profit, offsetting the interest, from weakening the dollar.
also a weak dollar makes american products cheaper
on the world market, boosting exports
while making foreign goods more expensive
thus reducing imports.
a cheap dollar also makes tourism and investment in american assets more attractive to foreigners
while tending to keep americans at home spending here.
the real losers
are the super-rich and mega-corps , banks and governments
holding large amounts of american currency
now worth a lot less.

[Hippie3]

If only we lived in small, self sufficient communities that relied on trade and not money. Where we knew where all our food came from, where we actually KNEW the people in our town and kindness towards one another was an actual practice, and where we walked most everywhere enjoying the scenery and taking life on at a slower pace.

been there,
done that.
sucked.

[Doctor D]

Originally Posted by Hippie3