...and so it begins: salvia arrest

[lysergic]

Bismarck man faces charges over salvia possession

LOADING
Apr 09, 2008 - 04:05:08 CDT
By JENNY MICHAEL
Bismarck Tribune
A Bismarck man has been charged with possession of a controlled substance with intent to deliver after police allegedly found 8 ounces of salvia in his home.

Kenneth Rau, 46, was charged Tuesday with the Class Afelony, along with Class Afelony possession of psilocybin with intent to deliver, Class Amisdemeanor possession of drug paraphernalia and Class B misdemeanor possession of marijuana.

South Central District Judge Tom Schneider set bond for Rau at $2,500 cash.

Salvia divinorum and its active ingredient, salvinorin A, were declared a schedule one narcotic by the 2007 North Dakota Legislature. Salvia divinorum, a perennial herb, is native to Mexico and related to other varieties of salvia, which are common garden plants. While salvia divinorum has hallucinogenic effects when chewed or smoked, other varieties of salvia are not known to have such effects.

Burleigh County Assistant State's Attorney Lloyd Suhr said he had not previously seen a case of someone charged for possessing the substance since it was outlawed Aug. 1, 2007, but he could not immediately confirm that it was the first such case in Burleigh County. Suhr had to pronounce salvia for Schneider and tell him what it is, as the judge apparently had not heard of the substance.

North Dakota is one of several states to have made salvia divinorum illegal, though neither it nor salvinorin A are controlled under the federal Controlled Substances Act.

Bismarck Police Sgt. Dwight Offerman said police went to Rau's northeast Bismarck home at 3 p.m. Monday to assist parole and probation officers in serving a warrant on Kenneth Rau's son, Scott Rau.

Scott Rau appeared in court on Tuesday on a petition for revocation of probation on convictions for possession of marijuana with intent to deliver, two counts of possession of oxycontin. He also faces new charges of preventing arrest, possession of drug paraphernalia and possession of marijuana. Schneider set bond for him at $10,000.

As part of the arrest of Scott Rau, officers searched the home, where both Kenneth and Scott Rau live, Offerman said.He said officers found several bags of salvia, totalling 8 ounces, and drug paraphernalia.

Suhr told Schneider 8 ounces constitutes about 480 doses of salvia, though Kenneth Rau said the amount he had would not be that many doses because it was dry leaves not extract. Schneider cut him off from speaking further, reminding him of his right to remain silent.

(Reach reporter Jenny Michael at 250-8225 or jenny.michael@bismarcktribune.com.)

http://www.bismarcktribune.com/artic...ews/152921.txt
I find it amusing that the judge had never heard of it.

[~Hippie3]

[bugs]

Sometimes, I wish I could understand the mentality that demands control of others' bodies and minds. At other times, I'm thankful that I can't.

[Looky]

Time to order (if it's still legal where you are) to have some for the future if you ever want the chance to do it again.

[bugs]

Where I live, they made it illegal for under 18. Grownups can indulge.

[Psilo Betto]

Legal or not, I will never mess with that stuff again. Gave me the scare of a lifetime. I still think about that trip, and it was 3 years ago!

[bugs]

I just remembered, a few weeks ago I was listening to some talk show or newscast or something. Someone was talking about salvia. Seems it was someone regarded by someone as a drug expert.

They were spouting about this salvia stuff that was cheap, legal and easily available. They said that it was going to be the new marijuana, all the kids would be smoking it constantly, had to be eradicated, illegalized, purveyors shot etc. etc.

A lot like when khat came on the scene with the early waves of Somalian refugees and legislative idiots decided that it was a horrible drug. 'Course that was a racial/cultural suppression kind of thing, too.

Well, to Psilo's point, if the arsehole knew anything at all, he'd know that salvia use is pretty much self-limiting. Even if it doesn't scare the shit right out of you and you never want to go back there, it's not something you just toke up for a happy Saturday night.

Personally, I like it. There are certain times when a moderate dose takes me where I want to go. But once or twice a year, at the most. And not too much of it.

Okay. Rambling. But the point is, most laws of this nature are proposed, enacted and enforced by people totally ignorant of, and oblivious to, the real situation. Then, with a self-satisfied smile, they go home, enjoy a cigarette and a highball, and go to sleep knowing they've done the right thing.

[Oblivion]

I watched the news once and the kid on there said "it makes you like psycho and stuff".

[Looky]

Originally Posted by Oblivion

I watched the news once and the kid on there said "it makes you like psycho and stuff".

Different people have different reactions. Alcohol makes some people "psycho".

[~Hippie3]

CNN was running youtube video of dumbass kids wasted on 20x,
looks bad.
grow your own now.

[Dank Side Of The Shroom]

well thas shitty.

[lionelfire]

Saw on the news last night that it is now illegal in Kansas.

[hyphaenation]

Hip said:

grow your own now.

... nuff said

[rocketman]

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/...lvia.fears.cnn

[August West]

Originally Posted by rocketman

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/...lvia.fears.cnn

anyone else notice an unsurprising lack of viewpoints in this "news story?

I love the fat Cali councilman who's so concerned about health that he wants to ban an herb...

[wayback]

I must say that I really like the sign above, but getting back to the subject, the DEA is alway looking for another pet peave. They will do anything do break the publics spirit and quest for a drug free world. In response, I say resit and do more than just question authority.

[nicholas]

It was bound to happen sooner or later. In my area I see smoke shops selling "salvia 10x", "20x", etc. I've had smoke shop owners ask me if i wanna "trip out" on some salvia. I also see young dumb kids handing it out at parties with others wanting to take as much as possible so they can "get wasted" then doing really really stupid stuff.

I blame these people for making salvia such a target.

[largeankle]

what is even bad about salvia. i cant even stand when i trip on it. nobody does crimes while doing it. scheduling it only creates more crimes . ignorant people. it makes me wonder how much greater the world would be if aldous huxley and timothy leary had actually been taken seriously . i rarely use it but have had some of my most profound trips on it. last time i used it i sparked up a bong load while sitting in my darkened bedroom i slipped into its grips for a couple of minutes then had one of the most restful sleeps i've ever had, and i glowed the entire next day trying to recall alnd draw all the visions and patterns i saw. I am such a criminal, get me off the streets

[~Hippie3]

[Oblivion]

Originally Posted by Lookyhere

Alcohol makes some people "psycho".

Thats true. I wonder why they dont make alcohol illegal again.

[Beast]

I don't see anything wrong with passing a law making it illegal for minors to purchase the stuff.

All those videos of people freaking out and acting stupid.

Eating or smoking a psychedelic so my friends can laugh at how discombobulated I get, and then they take a turn so I can laugh at them, is completely immature and missing the point of taking an entheogen in the first place. It doesn't do anybody any good, and can result in psychological damage. I've seen the results first hand when some friends smoked like 45x sally while on 4+ hits of some good gels with no idea of what they were about to smoke (other than we're gonna get fuuucked up). It results in the opposite of what the plants are intended for; confusion instead of healing.

We talk about how we're enacting social change by aiding the proliferation of psychedelics, but if you just sell the stuff and don't provide any guidance, then are you really helping anyone out? All those vids on youtube of teenagers 'having out of body experiences' etc, are they even coming close to waking up from their dream like shells? Are they experiencing the dissolution of ego and finding enlightenment?

I doubt it. All that happened there is someone made a quick buck selling extracted sally.

The Psychedelic Revolution goes nowhere if it is guided with the reins of greed and commerce.


If there were youtube videos of small groups of people in a drum circle, seriously attempting to achieve shamanic goals, with at the end finding a person reunited with a long lost memory, able to face death, etc crying and hugs all around, then I would say, "hey! those kids are approaching this with the serious respect that any true psychonautical explorer would and they deserve our support." But they aren't They are abusing something that I hold sacred. As is the person selling it to them.

Frankly I feel the same about any other entheogen. I'm done with the recreational roller coaster ride. I know I'm entering a sacred space and inviting sacred energies into my sphere of influence when I ingest god flesh. I think there is great value in the practices of the NAC, but much less in the recreational ingestion of mescaline b4 a rock and roll concert.

Sure we all have a right to choose what goes in our bodies, but if we're concerned about our dogs eating ganja butter, then I don't see why we wouldn't be concerned about children having easy access to one of the most powerful psychedelics known.

just my .02

[Looky]

Originally Posted by Oblivion

Thats true. I wonder why they dont make alcohol illegal again.

#1 Too much money is involved, #2 Too many people are addicted and won't give it up.

[Sidestreet]

http://www.lansingcitypulse.com/inde...1844&Itemid=29

The above is an article from a Lansing newspaper on the upcoming ban in Michigan. The evidence supporting the ban seems to consist mostly of UTube videos. Two Michigan teens will also testify that people they know claimed to smoked sally and thought they became various small objects. Also a group of pharmacists claimed that there is no medical use for salvia (like they'd know).

Mostly it looks like the usual hysteria and political opportunism. Sure got my blood hot to read it today...

[Telepathic]

Originally Posted by Beastmaster

I don't see anything wrong with passing a law making it illegal for minors to purchase the stuff.

All those videos of people freaking out and acting stupid.

Eating or smoking a psychedelic so my friends can laugh at how discombobulated I get, and then they take a turn so I can laugh at them, is completely immature and missing the point of taking an entheogen in the first place. It doesn't do anybody any good, and can result in psychological damage. I've seen the results first hand when some friends smoked like 45x sally while on 4+ hits of some good gels with no idea of what they were about to smoke (other than we're gonna get fuuucked up). It results in the opposite of what the plants are intended for; confusion instead of healing.

We talk about how we're enacting social change by aiding the proliferation of psychedelics, but if you just sell the stuff and don't provide any guidance, then are you really helping anyone out? All those vids on youtube of teenagers 'having out of body experiences' etc, are they even coming close to waking up from their dream like shells? Are they experiencing the dissolution of ego and finding enlightenment?

I doubt it. All that happened there is someone made a quick buck selling extracted sally.

The Psychedelic Revolution goes nowhere if it is guided with the reins of greed and commerce.


If there were youtube videos of small groups of people in a drum circle, seriously attempting to achieve shamanic goals, with at the end finding a person reunited with a long lost memory, able to face death, etc crying and hugs all around, then I would say, "hey! those kids are approaching this with the serious respect that any true psychonautical explorer would and they deserve our support." But they aren't They are abusing something that I hold sacred. As is the person selling it to them.

Frankly I feel the same about any other entheogen. I'm done with the recreational roller coaster ride. I know I'm entering a sacred space and inviting sacred energies into my sphere of influence when I ingest god flesh. I think there is great value in the practices of the NAC, but much less in the recreational ingestion of mescaline b4 a rock and roll concert.

Sure we all have a right to choose what goes in our bodies, but if we're concerned about our dogs eating ganja butter, then I don't see why we wouldn't be concerned about children having easy access to one of the most powerful psychedelics known.

just my .02

Written so incredibly well, I'm nearly speachless...

Those videos were almost painful to watch, with things like this floating around is it any wonder that some people think that this drug is terrible? None of the kids in the video have any idea of how to actually use the effects of Salvia, even so I don't think half of them would use it as intended, even if they had known. Either way, I would hope that they set an age limit and let Salvia be, because obviously something has to be done about teenage MISUSE, while still allowing those who do to legally USE. Just as with any psychedelic, or any drug, there are ways to use and misuse it. It's just to bad not everyone knows the golden rules that go with psychedelic use.

[steeq]

Originally Posted by Oblivion

Thats true. I wonder why they dont make alcohol illegal again.

The reason alcohol cannot be made illegal IMHO is its too late. There are too many companies that make, distribute etc. that would fight it. Its bs though because it in my opinion is abused more than any other drug.

We need to fight these laws!

[DarkLestor]

Originally Posted by Beastmaster

...We talk about how we're enacting social change by aiding the proliferation of psychedelics, but if you just sell the stuff and don't provide any guidance, then are you really helping anyone out?...

It takes a long time for a culture to get to the point of shamanic guidence. it has to start somewhere, with those in this forum for instence.

In my short time here ive seen much guidence to those who wish to expand awarness, at very least to those within a degree or two of seperation from mycotopians.

If you wish to really enact social change, start a sally d circle. Hold ceremonies, create ritual and tradition, guide those who need guidence and learn from those who have something to teach.

[August West]

Originally Posted by Beastmaster

I don't see anything wrong with passing a law making it illegal for minors to purchase the stuff.
All those videos of people freaking out and acting stupid.
Eating or smoking a psychedelic so my friends can laugh at how discombobulated I get, and then they take a turn so I can laugh at them, is completely immature and missing the point of taking an entheogen in the first place. It doesn't do anybody any good, and can result in psychological damage. I've seen the results first hand when some friends smoked like 45x sally while on 4+ hits of some good gels with no idea of what they were about to smoke (other than we're gonna get fuuucked up). It results in the opposite of what the plants are intended for; confusion instead of healing.
We talk about how we're enacting social change by aiding the proliferation of psychedelics, but if you just sell the stuff and don't provide any guidance, then are you really helping anyone out? All those vids on youtube of teenagers 'having out of body experiences' etc, are they even coming close to waking up from their dream like shells? Are they experiencing the dissolution of ego and finding enlightenment?
I doubt it. All that happened there is someone made a quick buck selling extracted sally.
The Psychedelic Revolution goes nowhere if it is guided with the reins of greed and commerce.
If there were youtube videos of small groups of people in a drum circle, seriously attempting to achieve shamanic goals, with at the end finding a person reunited with a long lost memory, able to face death, etc crying and hugs all around, then I would say, "hey! those kids are approaching this with the serious respect that any true psychonautical explorer would and they deserve our support." But they aren't They are abusing something that I hold sacred. As is the person selling it to them.
Frankly I feel the same about any other entheogen. I'm done with the recreational roller coaster ride. I know I'm entering a sacred space and inviting sacred energies into my sphere of influence when I ingest god flesh. I think there is great value in the practices of the NAC, but much less in the recreational ingestion of mescaline b4 a rock and roll concert.
Sure we all have a right to choose what goes in our bodies, but if we're concerned about our dogs eating ganja butter, then I don't see why we wouldn't be concerned about children having easy access to one of the most powerful psychedelics known.
just my .02

Well said, I agree. With the slight exception of the idea that ingesting entheogens before "a rock and roll concert" (i don't really go see r'n'r concerts - but i do go see music while imbibing). It can be a very powerful experience to imbibe with others in a way that entrainment occurs - preferably outdoors in a "natural" setting...
i know it's a little off topic but.
Otherwise, as to your point

Originally Posted by steeq

The reason alcohol cannot be made illegal IMHO is its too late. There are too many companies that make, distribute etc. that would fight it. Its bs though because it in my opinion is abused more than any other drug.
We need to fight these laws!

Alcohol inebriation doesn't endanger the current patriarchal-dominator paradigm. An important reason why alcohol is legal and acceptable IMHO.

[sangraal]

It's stupid shit like that and, I may tweak a nerve or two in saying this, but also because of dumbass headshops, their proprietors and suppliers who exploit Salvia as a substitute for marijuana OR, in some cases, painted to be an LSD alternative. Whenever you brand a plant as something relative in experience (even when it's clearly not) to that of an already illegal substance, and profusely capitalize on it, it will only raise the eyebrows of Drug Warmongers; the inevitable nature is then that this other plant will become criminalized.

This is one reason why I never spent a penny on "Purple Sticky Salvia" or any other commercialized Salvia that was made to largely represent another substance already made illegal by the controlling apes in Congress. Leave it to the retards, young and old, to assist in making another beautiful plant fall to the prey of the vultures.

Originally Posted by Hippie3

CNN was running youtube video of dumbass kids wasted on 20x,
looks bad.
grow your own now.

[TVCasualty]

Welcome to Lowest Common Denominator culture.

All our laws and policies and such are designed for the LCD of intelligence and knowledge. Some idiots get high and post vids of themselves, and not surprisingly the substance they used is banned because it's patently obvious that the LCD of the general public can't handle it.

If you allow it to be possessed by those who can use it responsibly (without affecting anyone else, or providing it to minors) the irresponsible masses start to cry about fairness, so then they get it too and promptly do incredibly stupid things with it and before we know it it's denied to all.

There are verses in ancient Persian literature that refer to this problem in the context of alcohol. Rumi's works contain verses about how alcohol affected some people so negatively that it was prohibited for everyone, even though it was acknowledged that many people could handle it responsibly.

This will never end until we either accept that a lot of people are pretty stupid and just tolerate the damage they may cause as a cost of freedom or raise the LCD of our culture up a few notches to eliminate these problems at their root. The third option (prohibition) is obviously unworkable, since nearly all prohibited drugs are as available as ever. It's sad that the best of the prohibited drugs are harder to find than the worst; heroin is no problem but ibogaine is tough to find, etc.

[FDK]

Lmao TV, nail on the head. I had been reading thru this thread and mentally prepairing a somewhat similar post on the phallacy of the "All men being created equal" phrase the LCD's are so fond of.
I think theres also some correlation in how the things people generally feel most threatened by are those things which they dont comprehend. Spirituality / Deeper understanding and inner wisdom are sadly high on the list of things that the majority are painfully oblivious to, hence they fail to understand the experience and it turns into a kind of Devil to them on a Primal level which they naturally choose to shun as they shuffle thru their narrow little world while waiting for "the good things promised to them in the hereafter"...

I find it upsetting but understand it's just the result of a society which has allowed itself to be guided by Mans base instincts and desires. As far as a way to change the Majority into a Minority? I think it would require some form of Global crisis in which the Majority simply dies off or grows and adapts out of nessesity, at least I think sadly that it's far more likely than a massive social Gnosis driven by groups of Shamen-minded individuals trying to feed pearls to swine.

[TVCasualty]

Originally Posted by FDK

I think it would require some form of Global crisis in which the Majority simply dies off or grows and adapts out of nessesity, at least I think sadly that it's far more likely than a massive social Gnosis driven by groups of Shamen-minded individuals trying to feed pearls to swine.

All I'm advocating is that we raise the LCD a little. The masses don't really need to achieve higher consciousness, they just need to learn how to read and write, do math, and get the basics of biology, physics, and philosophy. We need teachers much more than shamans right now. The equivalent of 8th grade ought to be plenty long enough time to impart a basic education, and where this has been achieved it's been seen again and again that extremist ideologies no longer take hold in people's minds, women are empowered, and every indicator of the health and well being of a formerly illiterate/ uneducated culture improves. The LCD rises.

This was well within our grasp. It would have been so much cheaper to drop schools all over, for example, Afghanistan and Pakistan than bombs, and the results would have been genuine security here in the US. Turns out, rich Saudis built over 20,000 madrassas in that region in the mid to late 90's, and that's where the Taliban came from. There was one American guy building schools there at the time, and he managed to build 40-50 in the same time period. Extremism is well funded, education is not.

So, it's clear the Bad Guys know what's up, and they understand the importance of indoctri... um, I mean education. Hence the DARE program, mass-media propaganda campaigns, "universities" that teach intelligent design (Xtian madrassas), and the various other forces at work trying to lower the LCD to a level that's effortless to manipulate.

Mycotopia is about education, and that's why I stuck around after I joined. Ignorance is humanity's greatest enemy, and I think we should oppose all attempts to spread it intentionally in whatever way we're capable.

[leomanxvii]

everyone in Fl Be careful

july 1 = salvia illegalization date

not just salvia. In fact all "hallucinogenic herbs". This means the hallucinatory (the psychedelic or entheogenic) experience is off limits to human beings living in that state.

"The hallucinogenic herb law (HB 1363) makes Salvia divinorum illegal and puts it in the same class of controlled substances as marijuana and LSD. Possessing the herb, often sold on the Internet, will be a felony punishable by up to five years in prison, when the law goes into effect July 1."

how ridiculous. what's the point in all this. it seems like the politicians want to force kids to smoke cigarettes and drink alcohol, (leading to cancer and disease). why are those Legally available???? did the state actually conduct research on every type of hallucinatory herb???? wtf. this is so sad.

[kyle_w44]

First of all, to all the bashers of alcohol you happen to mildly offend me. I do agree in full that alcohol is more widely abused than any other substance out there, but mainly in the U.S. Take a look at Europe, over there beer is an art much as enthogens are a virtue to many of you. In Germany there are actually laws on how the beer must be made to keep it something great that they can be proud of. Now, like I said, I believe alcohol is widely abused, but it can be used responsibly just as anything else. I actually prefurr drinking over anything else out there. A good night of beer pong and laughter is always a great way to relieve some stress.

As for all of the bitching about illegalizing salvia and everything else that has already been legally banned, that's all it is. Telling everyone here (agreeing with everyone I should say) is changing nothing. I don't like the fact that our government is supressing such activities, but I'm not going to complain because I'm not actually willing to get out and start the revolution. And you'd all better damn well believe that's what it would take to truly change anything. We could teach the correct ways of using any drug we thought should be more than legal, (hell, flat out encouraged), when used correctly. And that would be great, teaching everyone the ways, showing them the true wonders. But it wouldn't stop the government from trying to stop all of us. For there to be any sort of change, it would be a revolution, with which comes bloodshed... literally. Does anyone recall when the National Guard gunned down mutliple college students at a protest in the '60s? Oh yes, there would be blood if we really wanted change, and perhaps that is why we will truly not put in the effort to change things. Because that's what it would take, and I personally don't believe it would be worth it. Not yet anyway. Now, they try to take away my guns and my RIGHT to bear arms, there's going to be hell. The Civil War, American Revolution, perfect examples of the sort of effort required for real change. Salvia isn't worth it. Guess we'll just have to keep breaking the law.

[TVCasualty]

Originally Posted by leomanxvii

everyone in Fl Be careful

july 1 = salvia illegalization date

Order some cuttings ASAP!!

[TVCasualty]

Originally Posted by kyle_w44

First of all, to all the bashers of alcohol you happen to mildly offend me. I do agree in full that alcohol is more widely abused than any other substance out there, but mainly in the U.S. Take a look at Europe, over there beer is an art much as enthogens are a virtue to many of you.

It's not really alcohol per se that is being bashed (here anyway) so much as it's being held up as the best example of our culture's hypocrisy, and that's no different in much of Europe. Beer was an integral part of the creation of Western Civilization, as were entheogens, and making and consuming both had been developed into art forms. So why is one ubiquitous and all the others prohibited?

I think the idea that alcohol abuse is "mainly" a problem in the U.S. is unbased. We're not even in the top ten of per capita consumption, though 'abuse' is harder to quantify.

In Germany there are actually laws on how the beer must be made to keep it something great that they can be proud of.

Up until 1987 anyway.

Now, like I said, I believe alcohol is widely abused, but it can be used responsibly just as anything else. I actually prefurr drinking over anything else out there. A good night of beer pong and laughter is always a great way to relieve some stress.

Sure, a good night with anything and laughter is a great way to relieve stress. The prohibition of almost everything except alcohol is particularly interesting because although many can and do use it 'responsibly,' it does have a demonstrably higher probability of causing damage (in every sense of the word) than most other recreational drugs (as long as we don't include arrest and imprisonment as a potential side effect of the other ones).

As for all of the bitching about illegalizing salvia and everything else that has already been legally banned, that's all it is. Telling everyone here (agreeing with everyone I should say) is changing nothing.

Really? It's just a bunch of bitching? I didn't know about Florida's new law until I read about it in this thread, so it's been at least a little tiny bit informative, too. When something people find disappointing happens, its a natural response to talk about it, bitch, discuss, or console those of like mind about it. If all that ever got posted were straight facts about this or that, then this website would just be a searchable database, not be a community.

It's also nice to know how many other people out there are as pissed of as we are about some new development, so getting together to preach to the choir is handy for getting a feel for just how big that choir is. From that can come the confidence to take some kind of practical action, so it can't be said that talking about it in this context changes nothing. It's part of the process.

When California banned same-sex marriage, what would've happened if all the same-sex couples just said "Oh well, nothing we can do about it" and went along minding their own business? My guess is it'd still be banned because in that scenario no one would've challenged it. Those who did challenge it no doubt got some courage from the fact that a hell of a lot of people supported them, and how many people that is that can only be determined if they get together and talk (even though they all already agreed with each other).

I don't like the fact that our government is supressing such activities, but I'm not going to complain because I'm not actually willing to get out and start the revolution.

So complaining about complaining is all different?

For there to be any sort of change, it would be a revolution, with which comes bloodshed... literally.

Bloodshed is a fundamental part of life, and bloody revolutions are mostly just unwilling transfers of power from one bunch of douchebags to another. Historically, gains achieved in 'good' revolutions inevitably erode. Seems like there has to be a better way...

Oh yes, there would be blood if we really wanted change

One of the messages psychedelics seem to bring people is that change does not have to be bloody to be revolutionary, and that's probably one reason they're illegal. At least the inflicting of bloodshed is not necessary for change, though the receiving of some is always possible in any context.

and perhaps that is why we will truly not put in the effort to change things.

Speak for yourself.

Because that's what it would take, and I personally don't believe it would be worth it. Not yet anyway. Now, they try to take away my guns and my RIGHT to bear arms, there's going to be hell. The Civil War, American Revolution, perfect examples of the sort of effort required for real change. Salvia isn't worth it. Guess we'll just have to keep breaking the law.

Not yet? Are you waiting for other people to lay the foundation and set the scene? Is the political climate going to magically improve on its own while we wait? What egregious offense would make a revolution "worth it?"

I really don't think there's anything to worry about in terms of anybody taking away your guns. When the disarming of the population is serious and not a drill, it'll be a simple matter of prohibiting ammo, which has no Constitutional protection. The reloaders will run out of powder and primers soon enough, and most ammo 'stockpiles' are only adequate for small-scale, personal protection of life and property. But you'll still have your guns.

The Revolution and the Civil War were both about money. It's about the only thing that can unite everyone in a common cause. The first American Revolution was about stopping excessive taxation; now there's a revolutionary idea we can all stand behind...

[kyle_w44]

Speak for myself? What, might I ask, are you doing to start the movement? To really change anything? Oh, nothing? Yeah, that's kind of what I thought. That was my whole point, you aren't actually doing anything that's going to bring change.

[malefacter]

Originally Posted by kyle_w44

First of all, to all the bashers of alcohol you happen to mildly offend me. I do agree in full that alcohol is more widely abused than any other substance out there, but mainly in the U.S. Take a look at Europe, over there beer is an art much as enthogens are a virtue to many of you. In Germany there are actually laws on how the beer must be made to keep it something great that they can be proud of. Now, like I said, I believe alcohol is widely abused, but it can be used responsibly just as anything else. I actually prefurr drinking over anything else out there. A good night of beer pong and laughter is always a great way to relieve some stress.

As for all of the bitching about illegalizing salvia and everything else that has already been legally banned, that's all it is. Telling everyone here (agreeing with everyone I should say) is changing nothing. I don't like the fact that our government is supressing such activities, but I'm not going to complain because I'm not actually willing to get out and start the revolution. And you'd all better damn well believe that's what it would take to truly change anything. We could teach the correct ways of using any drug we thought should be more than legal, (hell, flat out encouraged), when used correctly. And that would be great, teaching everyone the ways, showing them the true wonders. But it wouldn't stop the government from trying to stop all of us. For there to be any sort of change, it would be a revolution, with which comes bloodshed... literally. Does anyone recall when the National Guard gunned down mutliple college students at a protest in the '60s? Oh yes, there would be blood if we really wanted change, and perhaps that is why we will truly not put in the effort to change things. Because that's what it would take, and I personally don't believe it would be worth it. Not yet anyway. Now, they try to take away my guns and my RIGHT to bear arms, there's going to be hell. The Civil War, American Revolution, perfect examples of the sort of effort required for real change. Salvia isn't worth it. Guess we'll just have to keep breaking the law.

beer is not as big of a problem as distilled drinks where its easy to get alcohol poisoning

blood is gona get spiled over drugs wether or not there is a revolution in fact there is a war going on as i recall

and things are changing it may be slow but it is changing there used to be no medical mj laws and now there are mj used to be very high priority now some states its the lowest iv herd of at least 2 states that put on the ballot changes to legalise small amounts and i have herd of a bill that is supposed to go before congress about decriminalising weed

so changes are happening it just takes time.

[TVCasualty]

Originally Posted by kyle_w44

Speak for myself? What, might I ask, are you doing to start the movement? To really change anything? Oh, nothing? Yeah, that's kind of what I thought. That was my whole point, you aren't actually doing anything that's going to bring change.

[leomanxvii]

Originally Posted by TVCasualty

Order some cuttings ASAP!!

what, san pedro????

[Fresh Brewed]

Not really interested in Salvia, so missed this thread till now...turned out to be interesting.

[sangraal]

Originally Posted by leomanxvii

did the state actually conduct research on every type of hallucinatory herb???? wtf. this is so sad.

I wonder how fast they'll be pulling nutmeg off the shelves?

[leomanxvii]

Originally Posted by sangraal

I wonder how fast they'll be pulling nutmeg off the shelves?

seriously. how ignorant can these hags get??

another

[FDK]

Originally Posted by leomanxvii

seriously. how ignorant can these hags get??

another

Well in the strict sense I think they let that light shine thru with the beginning of "The War on Drugs" in the first place considereing what Proabiton on Alcohol did for the Black market / Syndicate in our Country. (Essentially the same as it has done now.)

Of course I dont believe their true motivation in this war is infact "to help save society from itself" but rather provide society another shining star at which to point and shout, "Look, if it werent for our efforts, your cities would be nothing more than smoking ruins due to all the people Hopped up on Pot, Smack and Blow! You need us to tell you how to live!" Which of course requires more tax dollars to fund, which requires hiring more goose stepping henchmen to enforce these laws, which requires more tax dollars to fund. Not to count the endless stacks of profit they make now by seisure and resale of assets and the piles of money stashed away in those assets. "But they should legalize and tax it like Tobacco!" A guy in a $700,000 house idriving a $40,000 Car has 5 Lbs of Weed or 80 ounces. Let's suppose that were the house & car to be auctioned after this Guy gets popped for intent to distribute the house brings $400,000 and the Car $20,000. That's $420,000 free and clear in profit for the Fed's for all their goose stepping which was already funded by our tax dollars to begin with. For the Government to earn an equal amount of profit on this same 5 Lbs of taxed weed, that would amount to $5250 per ounce, the tax alone would lead to the same black market conditions which exist now. And even if there were slightly greater savings to be made on the cost of inprisonment of these dealers (Not) it still wouldn't be worth the price to them of admitting they were wrong in the first place.

Be as a thorn in the side of injustice.

[Subbalteatus]

I really have no interest in Salvia however I do find it interesting that an herb that will intoxicate you for only a few minutes into delirium would be scheduled above a poison (alcohol) that intoxicates individuals for hours on end, and is at the root of thousands of deaths a year in every state, not to mention Alcohol has torn millions of families apart for centuries.

Maybe we should make a citizens law to penalize all these politicians and police for promoting and condoning the use of alcohol and lets Throw their asses in jail and take away their rights. I'm all for it! Lets start a petition!

As for why the bash on salvia and other herbs..... well I dont believe its the head shops as much as the internet and the flow of information, You Tube especially. Salvias been around for a long time in those head shops but not until the free flow of todays internet has it become widespread and well known, among users and haters alike.

Thats the great Irony of drugs..
if its good it get used
if it gets used it gets shared.
if it gets shared it gets well known
then it either gets taxed or made illegal

With todays flow of information its only a matter of time before all the good stuff will be far out of reach legally and then the tripper that has any care for the law will be stuck to smoking bannana peels because thats all thats legal. Or I suppose he can turn into the cookie cut drunk, smoking, over taxed numbskull that the goverment wants him to be so they can send him to oblivion or watch him die of liver failure or lung cancer. Fucking idiots running this country and were all following allong.

Peace,
Subbal

[FDK]

Originally Posted by Subbalteatus

Fucking idiots running this country and were all following allong.

Peace,
Subbal

Careful how you use the term "We" as it might include all of us.

The following is from SWIM, of course.

Some fun ways to phuk with them.

Portable "High power" wideband radio transmitters tuned to cover their range of radio frequency with 10x the amplitude of the average transmitter. Moderatly powered, it will locally disrupt their Radio communications, pump enough power out and you will fry their receiver units, very costly stuff. (Ever see a Cop who cant call for Backup? )

EMP Generation devices are a fun way to shut hardware off for good, let's start taking Their toy's away and see how they feel.

Pour oil, sand, glass shards or plain old garden dirt into their gas tanks at every opportunity you find (Channel locks do wonders for riping off the caps if they start using the locking ones / Be sure to keep your face well hidden, also hunch over and walk with a gimp or something so as to make your positive I.D. more unlikely) 1 minute smoke bombs up the tailpipe of a car can have unpredictable results (Beyond smoking that is. / face the fuse in toward the muffler) Even Crazy Glue in the door lock tumblers iseffective in really annoying the "Powers that be"

Be a friggin miscreant, but use proper caution and "common sense" when doing so or they wont let you do it for long. The fun is not in getting caught.

I'm not suggesting or Advocating the use of hazardous or lethal force, after all these are just other fellow Americans who were simply better brainwashed by the (un-)educational institutions, what we really want is to make it much more difficult for them to do their job, make it less profitable to them by destroying the tools of their trade at every opportunity we find. So yea, no fire-bombing or drive-by's because somwhere behind the Badge and all that Kevlar is just another poor working class American with a family to feed. We want them to see our right, not our might.



For those who feel the above mentioned tactics too extreme, at least slap pot leaf stickers on their bumpers or over the door emblems. Remembering of course to "disguise" yourself from the dash-cam or parking lot security cameras, or traffic light cameras. (DONT buy these in bulk from a local store, while unlikely it will increase the chance of being found.

Ooooh, fun Idea with some likely legal repercussions. Get as many friends together as possible (20+), garb up in black and blitz their parking lot, slapping stickers on as many cars as possible before dissapearing nto the night.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

I'm pretty sure I've got a dusty old book around here with some plans on EMP devices and other gadgets. I could scan some if anyone's interested.

[TVCasualty]

Hmm. There are two types of crime in terms of legal principles. Mala (or Malum) Prohibita and Mala In Se. That's "wrong/evil prohibited" and "wrong or evil in itself." Prohibition of marijuana and other drugs are illegal because society decided they were (mala prohibita). Murder, rape, theft, vandalism, and the like are seen as mala in se, evil in themselves. If I smoke a joint in most states, I'm technically a 'criminal' but only because the State says so. I make a vital distinction between the type of criminal I am and the other types that exist, and just because I may break one unjust law does not mean I'm willing to break all laws. That unfair association has been used to slander recreational drug users since the beginning of prohibition.

Besides, I'm not sure how nearly insignificant property damage and short-term disruptions of communications would help anyone's cause. If such tactics were ever broadly associated with legalization advocates, for example, it would push our credibility back a long way. Not to mention the one time you jam emergency services radio frequencies will probably be the time they have some kind of life-or-death issue unfolding for someone who desperately needs some real help (like an ambulance, maybe) but didn't get it 'cause the frequencies were jammed.

I personally don't want to confront or attack law enforcement itself, I just want them to direct their focus on real, actual crimes that have victims (mal in se kinda stuff). I've had enough close friends robbed, attacked, raped, or murdered to know why the police were created in the first place, but it's unfortunate that they cannot be trusted in our society thanks to the endless list of petty wrongs prohibited that make us all criminals.