How YOU can SIGNIFICANTLY cut your fuel costs.

[catdaddy]

Ok, friends, with fuel costs skyrocketing, there has to be something the common man can do, especially those of us with enough (insert favorite variable) to try it. I got something fo yo gas.

What I'm talking about is supplemental hydrogen as engine fuel.

Actually, Brown's gas- HHO. It's here, it works, and it CAN be a SIGNIFICANT replacement for the fuel you burn every day.

This post will be a simple introduction to the history and theory of the tek, and in subsequent posts, I'll show you how to get a functional Brown's gas generator together, some variations in how to make one, and how to tweak the output. Claims vary from insignificant (poor application, IMHO) to GREAT (near and over double the fuel economy before the mod.)

The most common element in the universe is hydrogen. The most common molecule on earth is water- H2O- made up of 2 atoms of hydrogen and 1 of oxygen. The bond is fairly strong, but they can be separated by driving electrons into the water- it's called electrolysis, and it's a couple hundred years now since the process was discovered.

Later, we'll discuss electrofluoresis, or radiolysis, as a means of drastically increasing the efficiency of the process, but for now- let's talk plain old electrolysis.

After we separate the atoms, we route them into your engine, where they burn- reunite- giving off energy and reducing your consumption of hydrocarbon fuels, and exit the tailpipe as water vapor.

An added benefit is that all the combustion chamber carbon burns away in the first few weeks of use, also increasing the engine's efficiency.

Just for fun, I'll throw this out- The Tech College where I took my hydrogen 101 course has a Chevy 350V8 pickup, which is DOCUMENTED to have increased it's fuel economy from 20 to 34 MPG.

THAT'S SIGNIFICANT. Some smaller vehicle owners claim twice that, when the system is fine-tuned.

The cost of the simple unit is under $50.00 in parts, and it will take a couple short afternoons to build and install- you have to let some sealer set up between the two days-

You know about patience, right?

Disclaimer- I AM NOT SELLING THESE. I will provide the info, the results of my experiments and outcomes as I modify and improve the systems I need to build for my company fleet- all different vehicles- and help with PM'd questions as time allows. I don't want your money, I want to give something back to this community in a way that I can.

So, you seriously hate to pay out the a$$ at the pump?

Hang in there, kiddies, we'll bring the cost of driving down yet.

After you read this, PLEASE let me know- just a smiley or something, if you're interested. I'd like to know the interest level, if only for my own selfish, egotistical reasons.

Thanks,

Catdaddy

[drtask]

a friend and i are actually considering doing something like this using a small 2.0 liter four cylinder engine to power some alternators and power our houses/ put back into the grid. its a great idea and really a better alternative for anyone with the capabilities to do so. how effective would you think using hydrogen to fuel an engine to generate power would be? and would the water vapor emitted as exhaust be drinkable/safe?

[catdaddy]

To the best of my knowledge, it COULD be done. The challenge being to produce more energy than you consume- theoretically impossible, but if you can get the molecules of water to their resonant frequency, it seems they coma apart with very little energy consumed.

Can't do it yet, myself.

Stationary engines would be one way you MIGHT be able to- the generator would have to be HUGE. As far as I know, now.

I KNOW there is MOSTLY myth, legends and fables about Brown's gas only vehicles, but there IS a video of Stan Myers supposedly running a 900lb? (estimate) VW dune buggy this way across country. The generator was 2-3 times the size of the engine....

Hard to do in a 3000 lb sedan, but staionary, weeeeellllll..


Maybe.

Maybe you'll be the first.

Catdaddy

Catdaddy

[drtask]

perhaps. i will definitely be recording the construction of the contraption! gotta have film to show ya'll the cool hydrogen burning engine. or engines for that matter. it seems the major set back is the actual separation of the hydrogen from the h2o.

our plan is to take one 100 amp alternator to run for hydrogen extraction/motor power than we're going to wire two 200 amp alternators to be rotated by the flywheel, then charging batteries.

what would be a rough estimate of power consumption to actually separate the hydrogen atoms for the oxygen atoms?

[hallucinogeneti]

I'm listening

[Psoulocybe]

I'm sitting front and center.

[Pedestrian]

"The most common element in the universe is hydrogen. The most common molecule on earth is water- H2O- made up of 2 atoms of hydrogen and 1 of oxygen. The bond is fairly strong, but they can be separated by driving electrons into the water- it's called electrolysis, and it's a couple hundred years now since the process was discovered"





Yeah thats true..... but do you realize how hard and expensive it is to get the equipment to produce the large amounts needed to replace the petrol we burn?


Sure.... You could convert your car to a hydrogen system in less than a day with the right kit and electrolysis has been around for hundreds of years, but we have yet to see the "Just add water and viola! hydrogen!" device that you can buy at your local store or build and produces enough hydrogen to get you a average 60 miles in your car a day.

I am all ears as well, yet your use of the word "claims" doesn't have me holding my breath.

For the average person, storing hydrogen is very difficult as well.

Im all for a hydrogen based future, but I just haven't seen much promise as far as everyday people being able to use this great idea.

How does this browns gas thing work? Also, what amount of hydrogen has the most successful browns HHO device produced and are there any figures on how much your average 4 banger car motor consumes?

[catdaddy]

Originally Posted by drtask

perhaps. i will definitely be recording the construction of the contraption! gotta have film to show ya'll the cool hydrogen burning engine. or engines for that matter. it seems the major set back is the actual separation of the hydrogen from the h2o.

our plan is to take one 100 amp alternator to run for hydrogen extraction/motor power than we're going to wire two 200 amp alternators to be rotated by the flywheel, then charging batteries.

what would be a rough estimate of power consumption to actually separate the hydrogen atoms for the oxygen atoms?

Until you can perfect electrofluoresis, you won't achieve this. It takes 5KW of energy to make 1 kg of hydrogen. The losses in efficiency in the internal combustion engine and the alternator make the idea theoretical at best, given what we know NOW.

Catdaddy

[catdaddy]

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

"The most common element in the universe is hydrogen. The most common molecule on earth is water- H2O- made up of 2 atoms of hydrogen and 1 of oxygen. The bond is fairly strong, but they can be separated by driving electrons into the water- it's called electrolysis, and it's a couple hundred years now since the process was discovered"





Yeah thats true..... but do you realize how hard and expensive it is to get the equipment to produce the large amounts needed to replace the petrol we burn?


Sure.... You could convert your car to a hydrogen system in less than a day with the right kit and electrolysis has been around for hundreds of years, but we have yet to see the "Just add water and viola! hydrogen!" device that you can buy at your local store or build and produces enough hydrogen to get you a average 60 miles in your car a day.

I am all ears as well, yet your use of the word "claims" doesn't have me holding my breath.

For the average person, storing hydrogen is very difficult as well.

Im all for a hydrogen based future, but I just haven't seen much promise as far as everyday people being able to use this great idea.

How does this browns gas thing work? Also, what amount of hydrogen has the most successful browns HHO device produced and are there any figures on how much your average 4 banger car motor consumes?

Yes, I do know how hard, etc, as I have been doing this for three months.

We're not talking conversion. As you say, apart from Myers' buggy, I ain't seen it yet either. We're talking supplementation. I can't say how much has been produced- the variables are few but wide, and not everyone who's tried it has reported- at least not to me.

How it works is covered simply here- more when I show the actual construction.

1-2 liters per minute is easily achieved- need/use is also highly variable, based on how/where you drive.

EVERYTHING you said, I said- until I saw it DONE, and functional.

I personally think a hydrogen only car from Brown's gas is a NEAR impossibility- but significant savings are easily achieved.

And we don't store hydrogen at all. We produce Brown's gas as necessary to operate the engine on a combination of it and petrol.

I'll start the construction post tonight, with pics, and give more details on the process. and why it works at several levels.

Catdaddy

[eatyualive]

aren't they doing this in california now?

im always interested in things like this. thanks!

[catdaddy]

Originally Posted by eatyualive

aren't they doing this in california now?

im always interested in things like this. thanks!

When you hear about hydrogen technology in the news, they're talking about fuel cells- electric cars running on electricity produced in the fuel cell.

Your car/truck ain't like that... and it would STILL tie you to a hydrogen filling station, run by- guess who?- the oil companies.

Struck me as funny the other day... GM announced a fleet of hydro hybrids being sent to DC, etc... and last I heard there were only two filling stations- both in CA.

I have run into DOZENS of people in the last few months who are USING supplemental hydrogen, and dozens more who "know someone who is".

The class at the Tech college is booked months in advance, and some of the materials are becoming scarce, prompting a joint project with the instructor on a new design.... more on that later.

Thanks to all who are showing interest. I will do my best to see that you are not disappointed with the time you devote to reading this thread.

Catdaddy

[chrisandstepheny]

We're tuned in

[floppypeter]

subscribed

[mestophilies]

Pulling up my seat and putting out my joint. (gonna need all my brain power for this one!)

[catdaddy]

Originally Posted by mestophilies

Pulling up my seat and putting out my joint. (gonna need all my brain power for this one!)

Damn, I hate to cut into your buzz... I'll try very hard to keep it simple and straightforward.

Catdaddy

[Psoulocybe]

http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/

Total hydrogen fuel cell powered car. California has all the American versions of this car, as I understand it.

I'm just curious as to what you can do to improve a standard combustion engine.

[catdaddy]

Originally Posted by Psoulocybe

http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/

Total hydrogen fuel cell powered car. California has all the American versions of this car, as I understand it.

I'm just curious as to what you can do to improve a standard combustion engine.

Fuel cell car. Electric. hydrogen produced elsewhere- requiring energy. Compressed- requiring energy. (Probably) shipped- requiring energy.
The only two filling stations to the best of my knowledge are now in CA. Each loses 30% of the hydrogen to leakage.

Doesn't seem all that efficient or practical, does it? A better choice would be a diesel/electric hybrid run on soy oil. Soy is a nitrogen fixer, will damn near grow on rock and leave arable soil in a few years.

Brown's gas is here, it's now, and the older your car is, the easier it will be to use it- making it quite a bit cleaner to operate as well. Yes, you will probably always need some gasoline.

Just not nearly as much.

Stay tuned for HOW it works, and why it is probably the best bang for your buck NOW.

Catdaddy

[shitsplash]

check this out =crap deleted

[catdaddy]

Like I said, LOTS of myths, deception, and outright lies out there.

Besides, we don't want to run a lawnmower on piss. We want to run a car on water...

Catdaddy.

[bugs]

I'm a skeptic, but always willing to be convinced. More power to ya, Catdaddy. My chair's pulled up an' I'm tuned in.

[joecoolatc]

this water for gas tek is something i have been reading about for about a year now. i have read at great length on any and i dare say every website i could find. for every website i read i found a different theory for why it works and a different method for making this thing. i have seen ppl making this things on youtube and i have no doubt that it makes hydrogen gas. i personally know several people building these things or has one currently.

there is one BIG problem with the whole thing. it breaks the 1 and 2 law of thermodynamics.

First law: "Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. It can only change forms."

interpretation: you cannot put this water in any device and magically create hydrogen with putting in energy.

Second law: "The entropy of an isolated system not in equilibrium will tend to increase over time, approaching a maximum value at equilibrium."

interpretation: you cannot use your engine or battery or any other source of power from you car to split water into hydrogen or hho or anything else and use this as a fuel supplement, fuel substitution, or an air additive without coming up with a net lose of energy.

i would still love to hear an explanation to this thing that makes sense and doesn't violate these principles. for the record catdaddy i would love for you to prove me wrong.

[catdaddy]

Joe,

Bumblebees can't fly either. What the facts you quoted don't illustrate is the fact that a great deal of the fuel we consume is wasted. I don't presume to be a physicist, but I know when I see documents that show the increase in fuel economy, I can only assume that it really does work.

BTW, I thought it was total bullshit, myself. For a long time. But like the quote goes, after the first stage of total disbelief and ridicule, I began to ask, "why not?'. Then I said, "what the hell' why not?

The next step, as I understand it, is that this becomes in common use. That is happening now, in little clusters all over the country.

ANYHOOO, I'm gonna show why, how, what, when, where. You decide if it works for you. And I'll say this much up front, it REALLY can be tweaked...

SOOOO, see next post.

Catdaddy

[joecoolatc]

well i look forward to you proving it true. is any of this documentation you speak of on the net?

[catdaddy]

OK, here we go, onward and upward.

1) The internal combustion engine in your car burns gasoline (or diesel) to produce mechanical energy. This energy makes car go down road.

If you replace a portion of the fuel consumed with another source, at the same rate of consumption of energy, the use of the first fuel diminishes...

You use less gas. Got it?

2) You can split water-H2O- into it's component parts, hydrogen and oxygen, by driving electrons into the water. It's called electrolysis, and it produces Brown's Gas, a stoichiometrically perfect mixture of the two. Very volatile.
The efficient translation of water to gas was not accomplished until late this past century, but we'll stick to simple, for now.

3) When you introduce this gas into an internal combustion engine, it replaces a portion of the fuel consumed, lowering your cost for gasoline. How MUCH you put in, and how you do it, dictates the level of increase in fuel economy. We're gonna stick to basics here. At first, anyway.

It has two other properties that are also of interest. The addition of Brown's Gas to the mixture of air and gasoline causes it to burn much more efficiently, because of a more rapidly spreading flame front, blah blah blah..

And it contains a fair measure of water vapor. Water vapor increase horsepower when applied correctly, (ask any old racer) AND also cleans the carbon from the combustion chamber, valves, etc... resulting in a more efficient engine.

(That's why they sell the hell out of gas treatment, etc- carboned intake valves result in raw fuel out to the catalytic converter- designed for that purpose, I might add...to burn WASTED fuel that made it out the pipe...)

So, we see three benefits of the use of Brown's Gas.

4)The alternator in your ride is probably sized to produce current at least twice what you need to operate the vehicle under normal conditions. We'll use some of this excess capacity to produce Brown's Gas.

A note here. Recent experimentation in this area has made it apparent that water has a "resonant frequency" at which it is MUCH easier to split...

Which is why this has REALLY come to be a big deal.

He who created the universe left some secrets for us to find...

This, I believe, is one of them.

OK, friends, that's enough for now. You understand WHY we want to make and use Brown's Gas, right? Cheap energy. And/or it makes what we been doin more efficient.

Next post I'll talk about constructing a generator.

Thanks for listening!



Really!

Catdaddy

Oh, just for kicks, here's some pics...

A couple of different designs for the generator. Testing underway.

A pic of a generator making Brown' Gas

Nighty!

[catdaddy]

Ok, one thing I gotta get out of the way before we get into actual parts lists, etc...

You are not going to build a simple device and stop using gasoline. You ARE, however, going to make fewer trips to the pump.

This technology is still, in some ways, in it's infancy. There are, I'm sure, a few guys out there who have got some real intense research into this, and can create VERY efficient generators. I'm working with readily available materials and trying to KISS, while testing tweaks for increased performance.

You get to ride along.

A bit more on implementation, before I start with materials lists and pics of construction.

Our end goal is to produce as much brown's gas as possible with available current, and introduce it into the engine. The more we put in, the more we'll have to tweak to avoid things like "check engine" lights, and so forth.

If you're still here a week from now, you will have the basics in your hand, or could. Getting real deep is farther off.

But a 20% gain in fuel economy is a great place to start, right?

That's probably a VERY conservative estimate of what you should gain.

Let me hear from you some more if you will.

You will be able to hit Lowe's or Rural King, etc, for most, if not all, of the materials. You're gonna spend at LEAST $20.00, but probably closer to $50.00 before you can say "my car is using supplemental hydrogen".

I'll present a few designs, so you can make use of the resources available to you. If you who are really serious want to go ahead and let me know what kind of vehicle you would like to add this system to, I can give more thought to how best to direct your efforts. Different fuelie systems require different approaches in implementation. My first victim was a carbureted small pickup. Different introduction process from a fuel- injected V6, for example.

Ready to rock?

Catdaddy

[roc]

Let's roc!

[bugs]

Rhe only way I can see this working is if the additional hydrogen increases combustion efficiency.

The extra capacity of the alternator really isn't a factor. It relies on the conversion of mechanical energy to electrical energy, and if something (the hydrogen generator) pulls more electrical energy from the alternator that means that the engine has to work harder to do that.

That burns more gas, and since the efficiency of the alternator is less than 100%, part of that extra mechanical input is lost as heat. First law, you can't get more out than you put in.

Another observation is that as soon as the Brown's gas mixes with the incoming fuel/air mixture, that delicate balance of two parts hydrogen to one part oxygen is upset. There's raw atmosphere there; hydrogen, oxygen, and a bunch of nitrogen and other gases. Along with the fuel. I think it would take a secondary fuel injector, directly into the combustion chamber, to inject the perfect mixture of Brown's gas at the proper time to have it burn at its maximum efficiency.

But, as stated somewhere above, the extra hydrogen might indeed improve combustion efficiency enough to generate more extra horses than the hydrogen generator consumes.

Onward through the fog!

[HumanExperiment]

Sorry, I could have saved you $ and a lot of your time. This is a scam, plain and simple. The biggest guy behind selling this junk is a professional con artist, he has been to jail in the past, and I have no doubt that he will go back to jail in the future. There is no free lunch, you can't get more energy out of breaking apart water and burning the result than you put in. Browns gas is very old news.

That said, there is definitely potential for hydrogen and fuel cells in the future. I can envision a time when ocean water is piped to dessert areas and large solar energy facilities are used to convert this to hydrogen and oxygen, which in turn would be piped off to where it can be used (not unlike the massive infrastructure we have today to move oil and gas around the country).

See:
http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2008/oxygen-0731.html
http://tinyurl.com/6etwg5