Pentagon devising scenarios for martial law in US

[maliki]

Date : 2005-08-10
Pentagon devising scenarios for martial law in US

By Patrick Martin – World Socialist Web Site

According to a report published Monday by the Washington Post, the Pentagon has developed its first ever war plans for operations within the continental United States, in which terrorist attacks would be used as the justification for imposing martial law on cities, regions or the entire country.

The front-page article cites sources working at the headquarters of the military’s Northern Command (Northcom), located in Colorado Springs, Colorado. The plans themselves are classified, but “officers who drafted the plans” gave details to Post reporter Bradley Graham, who was recently given a tour of Northcom headquarters at Peterson Air Force Base. The article thus appears to be a deliberate leak conducted for the purpose of accustoming the American population to the prospect of military rule.

According to Graham, “the new plans provide for what several senior officers acknowledged is the likelihood that the military will have to take charge in some situations, especially when dealing with mass-casualty attacks that could quickly overwhelm civilian resources.”

The Post account declares, “The war plans represent a historic shift for the Pentagon, which has been reluctant to become involved in domestic operations and is legally constrained from engaging in law enforcement.”

A total of 15 potential crisis scenarios are outlined, ranging from “low-end,” which Graham describes as “relatively modest crowd-control missions,” to “high-end,” after as many as three simultaneous catastrophic mass-casualty events, such as a nuclear, biological or chemical weapons attack.

In each case, the military would deploy a quick-reaction force of as many as 3,000 troops per attack—i.e., 9,000 total in the worst-case scenario. More troops could be made available as needed.

The Post quotes a statement by Admiral Timothy J. Keating, head of Northcom: “In my estimation, [in the event of] a biological, a chemical or nuclear attack in any of the 50 states, the Department of Defense is best positioned—of the various eight federal agencies that would be involved—to take the lead.”

The newspaper describes an unresolved debate among the military planners on how to integrate the new domestic mission with ongoing US deployments in Iraq, Afghanistan and other foreign conflicts. One major document of over 1,000 pages, designated CONPLAN 2002, provides a general overview of air, sea and land operations in both a post-attack situation and for “prevention and deterrence actions aimed at intercepting threats before they reach the United States.” A second document, CONPLAN 0500, details the 15 scenarios and the actions associated with them.

The Post reports: “CONPLAN 2002 has passed a review by the Pentagon’s Joint Staff and is due to go soon to Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld and top aides for further study and approval, the officers said. CONPLAN 0500 is still undergoing final drafting” at Northcom headquarters.

While Northcom was established only in October 2002, its headquarters staff of 640 is already larger than that of the Southern Command, which overseas US military operations throughout Latin America and the Caribbean.

About 1,400 National Guard troops have been formed into a dozen regional response units, while smaller quick-reaction forces have been set up in each of the 50 states. Northcom also has the power to mobilize four active-duty Army battalions, as well as Navy and Coast Guard ships and air defense fighter jets.

The Pentagon is acutely conscious of the potential political backlash as its role in future security operations becomes known. Graham writes: “Military exercises code-named Vital Archer, which involve troops in lead roles, are shrouded in secrecy. By contrast, other homeland exercises featuring troops in supporting roles are widely publicized.”

Military lawyers have studied the legal implications of such deployments, which risk coming into conflict with a longstanding congressional prohibition on the use of the military for domestic policing, known as posse comitatus. Involving the National Guard, which is exempt from posse comitatus, could be one solution, Admiral Keating told the Post. “He cited a potential situation in which Guard units might begin rounding up people while regular forces could not,” Graham wrote.

Graham adds: “when it comes to ground forces possibly taking a lead role in homeland operations, senior Northcom officers remain reluctant to discuss specifics. Keating said such situations, if they arise, probably would be temporary, with lead responsibility passing back to civilian authorities.”

A remarkable phrase: “probably would be temporary.” In other words, the military takeover might not be temporary, and could become permanent!

In his article, Graham describes the Northern Command’s “Combined Intelligence and Fusion Center, which joins military analysts with law enforcement and counterintelligence specialists from such civilian agencies as the FBI, the CIA and the Secret Service.” The article continues: “A senior supervisor at the facility said the staff there does no intelligence collection, only analysis. He also said the military operates under long-standing rules intended to protect civilian liberties. The rules, for instance, block military access to intelligence information on political dissent or purely criminal activity.”

Again, despite the soothing reassurances about respecting civil liberties, another phrase leaps out: “intelligence information on political dissent.” What right do US intelligence agencies have to collect information on political dissent? Political dissent is not only perfectly legal, but essential to the functioning of a democracy.

The reality is that the military brass is intensely interested in monitoring political dissent because its domestic operations will be directed not against a relative handful of Islamic fundamentalist terrorists—who have not carried out a single operation inside the United States since September 11, 2001—but against the democratic rights of the American people.

The plans of Northcom have their origins not in the terrible events of 9/11, but in longstanding concerns in corporate America about the political stability of the United States. This is a society increasingly polarized between the fabulously wealthy elite at the top, and the vast majority of working people who face an increasingly difficult struggle to survive. The nightmare of the American ruling class is the emergence of a mass movement from below that challenges its political and economic domination.

As long ago as 1984—when Osama bin Laden was still working hand-in-hand with the CIA in the anti-Soviet guerrilla war in Afghanistan—the Reagan administration was drawing up similar contingency plans for military rule. A Marine Corps officer detailed to the National Security Council drafted plans for Operation Rex ’84, a headquarters exercise that simulated rounding up 300,000 Central American immigrants and likely political opponents of a US invasion of Nicaragua or El Salvador and jailing them at mothballed military bases. This officer later became well known to the public: Lt. Colonel Oliver North, the organizer of the illegal network to arm the “contra” terrorists in Nicaragua and a principal figure in the Iran-Contra scandal.

As for the claims that these military plans are driven by genuine concern over the threat of terrorist attacks, these are belied by the actual conduct of the American ruling elite since 9/11. The Bush administration has done everything possible to suppress any investigation into the circumstances of the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon—most likely because its own negligence, possibly deliberate, would be exposed.

While the Pentagon claims that its plans are a response to the danger of nuclear, biological or chemical attacks, no serious practical measures have been taken to forestall such attacks or minimize their impact. The Bush administration and Congress have refused even to restrict the movement of rail tank cars loaded with toxic chemicals through the US capital, though even an accidental leak, let alone a terrorist attack, would cause mass casualties.

In relation to bioterrorism, the Defense Science Board determined in a 2000 study that the federal government had only 1 of the 57 drugs, vaccines and diagnostic tools required to deal with such an attack. According to a report in the Washington Post August 7, in the five years since the Pentagon report, only one additional resource has been developed, bringing the total to 2 out of 57. Drug companies have simply refused to conduct the research required to find antidotes to anthrax and other potential toxins, and the Bush administration has done nothing to compel them.

As for the danger of nuclear or “dirty-bomb” attacks, the Bush administration and the congressional Republican leadership recently rammed through a measure loosening restrictions on exports of radioactive substances, at the behest of a Canadian-based manufacturer of medical supplies which conducted a well-financed lobbying campaign.

Evidently, the administration and the corporate elite which it represents do not take seriously their own warnings about the imminent threat of terrorist attacks using nuclear, chemical or biological weapons—at least not when it comes to security measures that would impact corporate profits.

The anti-terrorism scare has a propaganda purpose: to manipulate the American people and induce the public to accept drastic inroads against democratic rights. As the Pentagon planning suggests, the American working class faces the danger of some form of military-police dictatorship in the United States.

http://www.asiantribune.com/show_article.php?id=2620

[maliki]

Figured I would add some news storys for the days discusion..

It's only PARINOIA if it never happens

[Beastmaster]

By Patrick Martin – World Socialist Web Site
According to a report published Monday by the Washington Post, the Pentagon has developed its first ever war plans for operations within the continental United States,blah blah...

This is a paranoid interpretation of a washington post article with a socialist slant, so of course its going to be riddled with paranoia and bias.

The new plan that is being discussed is not for implementing martial law on US citizens, it is for learning the lessons of the current SNAFU in Iraq - that is how to deal with operations other than war, in which we find ourselves involved in the process of nation building and policing an anarchic state rife with insurgency.

Here's an article concerning the same Pentagon plans, only without the socialist agenda:

Peace-making a core mission in new Pentagon policy

By Bernd Debusmann Mon Dec 12,10:06 AM ET

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - After years of internal debate, the Pentagon has embraced a fundamental change in policy which calls for the U.S. armed forces to be equally adept at waging war and making peace.

The new course, announced in a Pentagon directive, follows widespread criticism of the conduct of the war in Iraq, where U.S. forces scored a swift, decisive victory over conventional opponents but found themselves ill-equipped to deal with post-combat chaos and an increasingly effective insurgency.

The directive says that establishing order and security, restoring essential services and meeting the humanitarian needs of the population of a vanquished country were a "core U.S. military mission."

It is the first time that such activities have been defined as a core function of the U.S. armed forces.

Under the then-current label of "nation-building," the wisdom of using the military in repairing societies shattered by war was the topic of intense controversy in the 1990s when American troops were involved in post-conflict operations in Kosovo, Bosnia and Somalia.

George W. Bush made opposition to U.S. participation in nation-building a plank of his 2000 presidential election campaign.

Condoleezza Rice, his future secretary of state, said peacekeeping in the Balkans was sapping military morale. "We don't need to have the 82nd airborne escorting kids to kindergarten," she said.

The new directive says: "It is ... policy that stability operations are a core U.S. military mission that the Department of Defense shall be prepared to conduct and support. They shall be given priority comparable to combat operations and be explicitly addressed and integrated across all DoD activities."

One officer involved in the debate leading to the new directive described it as "a vast program to change mind-sets" and said education and training would be key to the success of the initiative. Unlike past transformations of the armed forces, this one is not expected to involve major costs.

There is no timetable for implementing key provisions of the November 28 directive, including the establishment of a "stability operations center to coordinate ... research, education and training, and lessons-learned."

The military bureaucracy is not known for lightning speed in translating directives into reality and experts both inside and outside the armed forces are reluctant to predict how long implementation might take. History shows that transformation can be measured in years, if not decades.

DEATH BY 1,000 PAPER CUTS?

"There's always the danger that this will be defeated by a thousand paper cuts," said Frederick Barton, an expert on post-conflict reconstruction at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a Washington think tank. "Implementation in the field becomes difficult as soon as someone has to give up turf."

Turf jealousies are routine in any big organization and the U.S. military is particularly big: 1.4 million on active duty in the Army, Marine Corps, Navy and Air Force, and 860,000 in reserve and National Guard units.

Much of the 11-page policy document reads like a list to address shortcomings laid bare after the March 2003 invasion of Iraq and the ensuing criticism that the United States won the war and is losing the peace.

The directive specifies the need for better language skills, more regional expertise, better intelligence and counterintelligence, more emphasis on studying foreign cultures and more coordination with foreign governments, international organizations and nongovernmental organizations.

Critics of the conduct of the war in Iraq say that many of the postwar problems could have been avoided if the military had shared more responsibilities with civilians or had taken into account detailed postwar plans worked out by the State Department.

The directive addresses such criticism. "Many stability operations tasks are best performed by indigenous, foreign, or U.S. civilian professionals," it says. "Nonetheless, U.S. military forces shall be prepared to perform all tasks necessary to establish or maintain order when civilians cannot do so."
Officers involved in working out the new policy say that some of its provisions are already being implemented. Training at U.S. military colleges, for example, is being adjusted to place more emphasis on counterinsurgency, language instruction, cultural awareness and the need to win the hearts and minds of an occupied country's population -- as in Iraq.

In a first step to get specialists from both military and civilian organizations to share information on best practices in post-combat environments, the U.S. Army's Peacekeeping and Stability Operations Institute recently brought together experts in a workshop on training.

One of the slides in a presentation by an officer from the National Training Center in Fort Irwin, California, reflected the added dimensions now being taught at military schools. Headlined "A New Class of 'Munitions,"' the slide listed money, food, medicine, education, fuel, employment, recognition and respect.

[maliki]

And the story as it appeared in the washington post .....

War Plans Drafted To Counter Terror Attacks in U.S.
Domestic Effort Is Big Shift for Military

By Bradley Graham
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, August 8, 2005; A01

COLORADO SPRINGS -- The U.S. military has devised its first-ever war plans for guarding against and responding to terrorist attacks in the United States, envisioning 15 potential crisis scenarios and anticipating several simultaneous strikes around the country, according to officers who drafted the plans.

The classified plans, developed here at Northern Command headquarters, outline a variety of possible roles for quick-reaction forces estimated at as many as 3,000 ground troops per attack, a number that could easily grow depending on the extent of the damage and the abilities of civilian response teams.

The possible scenarios range from "low end," relatively modest crowd-control missions to "high-end," full-scale disaster management after catastrophic attacks such as the release of a deadly biological agent or the explosion of a radiological device, several officers said.

Some of the worst-case scenarios involve three attacks at the same time, in keeping with a Pentagon directive earlier this year ordering Northcom, as the command is called, to plan for multiple simultaneous attacks.

The war plans represent a historic shift for the Pentagon, which has been reluctant to become involved in domestic operations and is legally constrained from engaging in law enforcement. Indeed, defense officials continue to stress that they intend for the troops to play largely a supporting role in homeland emergencies, bolstering police, firefighters and other civilian response groups.

But the new plans provide for what several senior officers acknowledged is the likelihood that the military will have to take charge in some situations, especially when dealing with mass-casualty attacks that could quickly overwhelm civilian resources.

"In my estimation, [in the event of] a biological, a chemical or nuclear attack in any of the 50 states, the Department of Defense is best positioned -- of the various eight federal agencies that would be involved -- to take the lead," said Adm. Timothy J. Keating, the head of Northcom, which coordinates military involvement in homeland security operations.

The plans present the Pentagon with a clearer idea of the kinds and numbers of troops and the training that may be required to build a more credible homeland defense force. They come at a time when senior Pentagon officials are engaged in an internal, year-long review of force levels and weapons systems, attempting to balance the heightened requirements of homeland defense against the heavy demands of overseas deployments in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere.

Keating expressed confidence that existing military assets are sufficient to meet homeland security needs. Maj. Gen. Richard J. Rowe, Northcom's chief operations officer, agreed, but he added that "stress points" in some military capabilities probably would result if troops were called on to deal with multiple homeland attacks.
Debate and Analysis

Several people on the staff here and at the Pentagon said in interviews that the debate and analysis within the U.S. government regarding the extent of the homeland threat and the resources necessary to guard against it remain far from resolved.

The command's plans consist of two main documents. One, designated CONPLAN 2002 and consisting of more than 1,000 pages, is said to be a sort of umbrella document that draws together previously issued orders for homeland missions and covers air, sea and land operations. It addresses not only post-attack responses but also prevention and deterrence actions aimed at intercepting threats before they reach the United States.

The other, identified as CONPLAN 0500, deals specifically with managing the consequences of attacks represented by the 15 scenarios.

CONPLAN 2002 has passed a review by the Pentagon's Joint Staff and is due to go soon to Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld and top aides for further study and approval, the officers said. CONPLAN 0500 is still undergoing final drafting here. (CONPLAN stands for "concept plan" and tends to be an abbreviated version of an OPLAN, or "operations plan," which specifies forces and timelines for movement into a combat zone.)

The plans, like much else about Northcom, mark a new venture by a U.S. military establishment still trying to find its comfort level with the idea of a greater homeland defense role after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

Military officers and civilian Pentagon policymakers say they recognize, on one hand, that the armed forces have much to offer not only in numbers of troops but also in experience managing crises and responding to emergencies. On the other hand, they worry that too much involvement in homeland missions would diminish the military's ability to deal with threats abroad.

The Pentagon's new homeland defense strategy, issued in June, emphasized in boldface type that "domestic security is primarily a civilian law enforcement function." Still, it noted the possibility that ground troops might be sent into action on U.S. soil to counter security threats and deal with major emergencies.

"For the Pentagon to acknowledge that it would have to respond to catastrophic attack and needs a plan was a big step," said James Carafano, who follows homeland security issues for the Heritage Foundation, a conservative Washington think tank.

William M. Arkin, a defense specialist who has reported on Northcom's war planning, said the evolution of the Pentagon's thinking reflects the recognition of an obvious gap in civilian resources.

Since Northcom's inception in October 2002, its headquarters staff has grown to about 640 members, making it larger than the Southern Command, which oversees operations in Latin America, but smaller than the regional commands for Europe, the Middle East and the Pacific. A brief tour late last month of Northcom's operations center at Peterson Air Force Base found officers monitoring not only aircraft and ship traffic around the United States but also the Discovery space shuttle mission, the National Scout Jamboree in Virginia, several border surveillance operations and a few forest firefighting efforts.
'Dual-Use' Approach

Pentagon authorities have rejected the idea of creating large standing units dedicated to homeland missions. Instead, they favor a "dual-use" approach, drawing on a common pool of troops trained both for homeland and overseas assignments.

Particular reliance is being placed on the National Guard, which is expanding a network of 22-member civil support teams to all states and forming about a dozen 120-member regional response units. Congress last year also gave the Guard expanded authority under Title 32 of the U.S. Code to perform such homeland missions as securing power plants and other critical facilities.

But the Northcom commander can quickly call on active-duty forces as well. On top of previous powers to send fighter jets into the air, Keating earlier this year gained the authority to dispatch Navy and Coast Guard ships to deal with suspected threats off U.S. coasts. He also has immediate access to four active-duty Army battalions based around the country, officers here said.

Nonetheless, when it comes to ground forces possibly taking a lead role in homeland operations, senior Northcom officers remain reluctant to discuss specifics. Keating said such situations, if they arise, probably would be temporary, with lead responsibility passing back to civilian authorities.

Military exercises code-named Vital Archer, which involve troops in lead roles, are shrouded in secrecy. By contrast, other homeland exercises featuring troops in supporting roles are widely publicized.
Legal Questions

Civil liberties groups have warned that the military's expanded involvement in homeland defense could bump up against the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878, which restricts the use of troops in domestic law enforcement. But Pentagon authorities have told Congress they see no need to change the law.

According to military lawyers here, the dispatch of ground troops would most likely be justified on the basis of the president's authority under Article 2 of the Constitution to serve as commander in chief and protect the nation. The Posse Comitatus Act exempts actions authorized by the Constitution.

"That would be the place we would start from" in making the legal case, said Col. John Gereski, a senior Northcom lawyer.

But Gereski also said he knew of no court test of this legal argument, and Keating left the door open to seeking an amendment of the Posse Comitatus Act.

One potentially tricky area, the admiral said, involves National Guard officers who are put in command of task forces that include active-duty as well as Guard units -- an approach first used last year at the Group of Eight summit in Georgia. Guard troops, acting under state control, are exempt from Posse Comitatus prohibitions.

"It could be a challenge for the commander who's a Guardsman, if we end up in a fairly complex, dynamic scenario," Keating said. He cited a potential situation in which Guard units might begin rounding up people while regular forces could not.

The command's sensitivity to legal issues, Gereski said, is reflected in the unusually large number of lawyers on staff here -- 14 compared with 10 or fewer at other commands. One lawyer serves full time at the command's Combined Intelligence and Fusion Center, which joins military analysts with law enforcement and counterintelligence specialists from such civilian agencies as the FBI, the CIA and the Secret Service.

A senior supervisor at the facility said the staff there does no intelligence collection, only analysis.

He also said the military operates under long-standing rules intended to protect civilian liberties. The rules, for instance, block military access to intelligence information on political dissent or purely criminal activity.

Even so, the center's lawyer is called on periodically to rule on the appropriateness of some kinds of information-sharing. Asked how frequently such cases arise, the supervisor recalled two in the previous 10 days, but he declined to provide specifics.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...700843_pf.html


Not mush spin applied here ............

[pskovinsky]

Sure, the threads a bit old, but still...


What is wrong with this?
Their job, is to make sure they have plans for everything, including something dire enough to demand martial law.
They aren't planning on how to orchestrate a disaster designed to GIVE them legal rights for martial law, they are making just in case plans.


I, for instance, have a just in case plan for 1000' tidal waves.
Do i think one will show up? Hell no, but if one does, i have a set course of action, so i don't have to make up an escape plan on the spot. (For reference, i need roughly ten minutes of warning, thats all it takes for me to be >1k feet from my computer chair)

[maliki]

Old but not forgoten...
As for what is wrong with this, its a personal view point open to discusion.
My self I have a real isue with being policed by the Us Millitary.
Its not there job to od so , there job is to protect the country from
outside threats and forces.
Not to police the citizens of the USA.
{qoute}They aren't planning on how to orchestrate a disaster designed to GIVE them legal rights for martial law, they are making just in case plans.{qoute}
Im not so sure, I myself belive that statement.
Our Govmnt has been busted trying to pull all kinds of shit..
Who knows maybe I am just a bit parinoid......
But there are many things Ive seen and read over and paid attention too
that makes me wonder...
First is our basic food stores we used to have in a hold. It started as enough basic grains and rice to feed every man woman and child in the USA for 3 years. Between all the world aid we offered and gave and the food suplies not being replenished we have been relegated to a mere 15.7 pounds of food for every man woman and child in the usa.
The U.S.D.A. Crop Production Report per September 12, 2005, contained said information, and this information was brought forth by Alan Guebert of the Farm & Food Report.
It would take a very little event that was nationwide to bring out the uglyness of mankind...
When you take all the little things like this and add them all together it sure paints a grim picture in my minds eye.....
If our Govmnt would put half an effort into planning for prepardnes rather then reactionary force we would be just fine...
There are so many things we could do to make our country a better place to live... But instead the funds go to failed drug wars and a host of other failed tasks, Legalize and tax Pot and they would make money hand over fist,,, put that money towrds the country.
Unfortanetly I dont hold the skill for open debate and to do it well.
I can try but I know.....

There are two types of people in the world, those with loaded guns, and those who dig, you dig" You totten or diging?????

[Lefty]

I'm interested. Pskov, please share details of your escape plan. Not being a dick (at this time in this forum I do sadly feel the need to clarify) but do you have certain supplies in the car & just jump in & scram?
Mainly interested because I lived on the Hayward Fault for a time in California & my contingency plans were limited to wondering if it was better to sleep between the beams of the house or under them (never came to a satisfactory conclusion) and if the house would do the sled thing or the dice thing down the hill (probably a combination).

[pskovinsky]

It's a pretty damn basic plan, a better one would be easy to come up with, but here it is:

I have a lighter, sleeping bag, and a few other important bits stashed in my car(s) at all times.
I've got another highly important wilderness tool, a machette, in my apartment for very quick and easy access.


Timeline:
T 0:00 I get warning of a 1000' tsunami headed my way
T 0:01 I'm out my front door, with machette, gallon water bottle, million candlepower spotlight (and car charger), and anybodies cell phone that happens to be lying in plain site.
T 0:03 I hit the freeway, it's about half a mile from my front door, but i'll be going at nearly balls-to-the-walls pace.
T 0:08 I get off the main freeway, onto a secondary highway that goes up into the mountains. It's a 7-8 mile drive, but both of my cars will do 90 without too much trouble. The prelude will happily cruise at 100. If there is a tsunami of doom coming, i'll deal with speeding tickets and resisting arrest charges later.

T 0:12 I hit the start of the climb into the mountains, it's another six miles or so from the main freeway, but again i'm going 100mph or so.

T 0:17 I'm at 1000 feet of altitude, and slow down to a more sedate cruising speed so the car doesn't blow up before i get to civilization again (30 more miles)



If i'm in my TR7 with it's 90hp (as opposed to the preludes 140) it'll take probably 30-40% longer. Assuming it doesn't blow itself to peices.

The nice thing, is that once i hit the mountain-bound highway, i'm headed directly away from the ocean, so if i can get there before the water, i'm good to go.


As soon as i hit the freeway i'll start calling friends and family and telling them to head for the hills.

The parents are at 370' already, and the ridge behind the house is at just less then 1000', but it's also three miles back, and covered in redwood trees to stop the water.

The other friends live at the bottem of a road that goes directly into the mountains, if he blows through stoplights and drives like a madman he'll be safe within five minutes.

If i'm lucky, nobody else gets wind of it till i hit the mountain bound highway.
If it's a loud speaker announcement things get a lot dicer with people doing stupid shit and wrecking cars all over the place.
Then it might be time for a carjacking, should my tires get holed or something.

[Hippie3]

i thought the mission of the national guard already covers the internal usa,
just like the coast guard is supposed to handle the borders.
perhaps it'd be better to boost the guard instead of bringing the army in.

[Lefty]

Thanks Pskov, interesting. I was way up on the hill by Cal State Hayward, would have an excellent view of the peninsula dropping off. The wave of half of Ca. dropping off would have touched the huge hill I lived on w/o a doubt. Figured I'd grab my board & ride the mountain back to sea over where Frisco used to be. To spend a few minutes in THAT tube would be worth whatever happened. If I rode that out I'd spend the rest of my life trying to comprehend it. Well, that & getting back to the mainland.

[Lefty]

Just to get back on topic, it's interesting how plans exist to protect the government from the people. It's supposed to be all about the citizens, laws for our own good and all that. Seems we can no longer change shit when it comes to government, the military has already been used against civilians, they are free to gather all the intel they feel like with no over sight whatsoever. A citizen can be held indefinately w/o counsel, the press is skewed one way or the other (dubya just called a publisher of a major magazine to his office to try to squelch a story last week, to the publishers credit he didn't capitulate) and usually questionable, I can't even get a police report in the town I live in w/o a lawyer. I think the beast WE created has gotten way out of hand. Laying plans for it's survival at our cost seems a very clear division, they will continue whether we like it or not. How tough is faking an election with all the power at your disposal? We are at their mercy entirely, and this is the best system going.
(Go ahead Hip, Shred it. Not goading you, but would actually like to hear what you thing should be done. I have a few ideas not fit to print here, we've been through that...Just at a loss and wonder what you think.)

[maliki]

Thats another one of them small isues I was thinking of Hipie. Thats exactly the point we dont have enough national guard to handle matters here on the home frnt If something where to happen. A large portion have been shiped over seas and reduced our reserve forces greatly.
Was speaking to a marine recruiter yesterday at work regarding his enrolments and how things have changed and slowed for his field of work.
He informed me that there has suddenly become a huge influx of female recruits outnumbering the men 3 to one on a national scale. And the decline in the quality of male recruits as he put it were geting alot of the run in and die first recruits insted of the smart ones.
To me that says the smart ones got the number and see whats going down and decide there lives are more important.
Now thats not to say our millitary is being transformed into a bunch of blubering idiots as he also told me that enrollment into officers schools had increased by a large factor. So the smart ones are pushing the buttons and the rest get the signal to act. I can almost here the conversations behind closed doors now....... General If we keep the stupid ones on the frnt lines they will be to busy to stop and have a second thought about what we just told em to do....... rambling my bad..
Back on track..
I then asked him his opinion on bushes latest comment
The Constitution Is Just A God Damned Pice Of Papper.
And he agread , it is just a pice of paper and has been for many years he tells me.
As he sees it it is just an idealogical esay. It was writen by a group of idealists that had no clue what democracy was...
And I had to tell him that I agread partialy It was written by men who didnt know what a democracy was , The constitution was written to make our country a REPUBLIC where the people rulled not a democracy where govt buisnes rules instead of the people.
So we went onto the next subject of our governing body.
I asked him if he himself had every taken part in training missions designed to be domestic here in the USA he tells me yes and then infoms me that these types of traing exercices are necasary to help keep the general population in controll while the govt tries to figure out how to fix the problem.
I then asked him well what if it is the people that are the problem as there sick of the govt and how things are run. His only responce was then more people will die untill order is restored...
SO the Govmnt is order asked him ? He tells me yes the govermnt is order as without the govt we have no country.......
What the fuck happened to of the people for the people by the people I asked He says no no It still is like that but now we must use a voting system for these types of things and if the pepole belive the system is corupt then what?
And again he tells me thats what the govmnt is for is to deal with isues just like these.
So were going to let a govt that is unwanted fix the problem so they can be removed????? That just doesnt sound like good buisnes to me at all.
Then the killer question I ask well what if we were put under martial law flat out due to civil unrest and disobiediance.
Would you shoot an american citizen for failure to comply.....
He paused and answred thats my job....
The pause at least shows conciance...
Well off to wrk for the day latters...
I know my spelling sucks guys but it works

[Hippie3]

there will be no violent revolution in america,
that much is true, no doubt in my mind.
any attempt would be crushed.
so y'all better learn how to cope
with the powers-that-be.
learn to be small and invisible.

[Lefty]

learn to be small and invisible.

So very true.

[maliki]

It is the way to stay alive
Fly low Slow and off the radar.
But ya never know Millitary Coue,s(SP?)
Happen and thats about the only way
I could see a major upset in our polilitical system.
Or put a woman in the Presidents Spot..
It may very well be time to Vote a woman in ......
Just not Hilliary
Or maybe we need another young gun like Kennedy....

[Throbbinwood]

A friend of mine tried to get into the Army about 5-6 years ago. He was in his young 20, smart, in good shape, and was very enthusiastic about serving his country. He failed his piss test. He told his recruiter that there must be a mistake (there wasn't, he is a pothead) and he wanted to be retested. The Army told him that despite his high marks on both physical & mental tests, the army had no use for him.
Just about a year ago he got a call from the same recruited who told him they wanted him bad and if he came down and failed annother test, they would find a way around it.

Most of the counrties National guard units have rotated into and out of the war zones at this time and can't be sent back. Recruitment is down. I have heard all kinds of stories about interesting new recruiting techniquies. I think the army is getting desperate and a draft is around the corner. Watch out for your sons AND Daughters folks.

[I_am_me]

They'll have to kill me before I allow them to lock me up or force me to kill.

[Hippie3]

there's no need for a draft,
army has plenty of troops just sitting around the world doing nothing,
if they need another 100,000 for iraq
they'll just pull them out of europe.

[Throbbinwood]

Thought this was interesting/related to the discussion:

Army relaxes tattoo rules to attract recruits By Will Dunham

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. Army, which missed its recruiting goal last year, has relaxed its policy banning certain types of tattoos in a bid to attract new soldiers who otherwise would have been barred from serving.

The Army will now allow new recruits and all its current soldiers to have tattoos on their hands and back of their necks as long as they are not "extremist, indecent, sexist or racist," Army officials said on Wednesday.

The Army said it continues to prohibit tattoos anywhere on the head, face or throat area.

But it will allow women recruits and soldiers to sport "permanent makeup" in the form of indelible eye-liner, eyebrows and lip makeup. The Army said this permanent makeup "should be conservative and complement the uniform and complexion in both style and color, and will not be trendy."

Officials said the policy change was made because the Army understands that the number of young men and women with tattoos or permanent makeup has grown in recent years.

"The Army is America. We are America's sons and daughters. America's sons and daughters are getting tattoos. That means that American soldiers are getting tattoos," said Lt. Col. Bryan Hilferty, an Army spokesman at the Pentagon.

"The Army is continuing to update our personnel policies. We have people who are otherwise qualified who want to serve and who have answered the call to duty," Hilferty added, and it made no sense to continue to bar them from serving.

"Clearly, if you have a sexist, a racist or a gang tattoo, you are unfit for duty -- you have been and you continue to be," Hilferty said.

The tattoo policy marks the latest move by the Army to try to boost its ability to attract recruits. The Army has raised the maximum age for enlistment, offered a series of financial incentives for signing up, increased the number of recruiters and hired a new advertising agency.

The Army missed by about 7,000 its goal of recruiting 80,000 in fiscal year 2005, which ended on October 1. It was one of the toughest recruiting years since the all-volunteer military was created in 1973.

Army officials have attributed last year's shortfall in part to wariness among young people about volunteering to serve during the Iraq war. While the Army has achieved its monthly recruiting goals in fiscal 2006, it continues to lag behind the number of recruits netted compared to last year at the same time.

The Army cited a 2003 survey of 1,010 people conducted at the Scripps Survey Research Center at Ohio University that found that roughly 30 percent of U.S. adults under age 35 have tattoos, and that the U.S. post-baby boom generations are more than three times as likely as the baby boom generation to have tattoos.

[maliki]

On A side note here as well the Army has now decided to incress its acceptance of what they call level 4 recruits. Basicaly there now taking a much larger portion of the very low test scores.... Ibelive the figure was
25% more of the lower scores.
This was the only way they could reach recruiting goals.


As for the draft there are and have been motions to reinstate it.

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/articl...TICLE_ID=38139
Its an uncertain world that we live in.
One just never truly knows whats on the horizion tommorow.

[Hippie3]

S. 89, the Senate version of the legislation
was introduced Jan. 7, 2003, by Sen. Fritz Hollings, D-S.C.
The House of Representatives version of the bill, H.R. 163,
is sponsored by Rep. Charles Rangel, D-N.Y.

both democrats who were not serious about the draft
but merely wanted to start controversy on the war.
neither bill ever made it.