hamas wins majority in palestine's elections- world on the brink ?

[Hippie3]

Originally Posted by Rodger

Oh, I see. So, you believe a free election in Palestine is a sign of the end times. LOL!! Pat Robertson and GW are going to be so proud of you.
RR

hey-
you know full well that's not what i said.

very disappointed in you, rodger.
you don't even try any more

you need to read my posts a bit closer
until you actually know what i'm saying
instead of just skimming until you see
a short phrase you can twist.

[Grateful_soldier]

Originally Posted by Dogfield

One thing you have got wrong is that there is evil in every country of the world, and there are people that live within a few miles of you that wouldn't think twice about fucking you up very badly either.

It is not as clear cut as good and evil.

What is very clear is that there are a few people in the US who would like to "fuck you up very badly" and there are Nations of people in the middle east who believe its their duty to Allah to do so.

They have a right as a nation to elect who they want but when they elect extremists who advocate terrorism, they will just have to remember it was their choice when the bombs start falling!

[Hippie3]

exactly.
no one gave hitler a free pass just because the germans elected him.
and the german people had to suffer the consequences of their choice.
so too, now, must the palestinians.
old adage-
they made their bed
and now they must sleep in it.

[pskovinsky]

Originally Posted by Venice

Well that's basically right. But in your sarcasm you really are essentially missing that it doesn't have to be the U.S. (since you apparently resent them)...good is freedom and democracy...bad is Islamo-fascism.

It wouldn't be the same "the other way around" because they don't share the same values that we do. Things that are our standard of living here that you apparently take for granted in your own confusion. In your effort to be fair, open minded, and understanding of all people you don't see that there really is evil in the world (and it isn't the U.S) and people that want to fuck you up very badly.

My effort is to draw this in an unbiased way.

I personally don't like ANY of the leadership of ANY of the middle east, democratic, islamic, or otherwise.

Country A is Islamic, and elects Dude A to lead them.
Country B is Jewish, and elects Dude B to lead them.

Dude A believes in the standard of values given by the Muslim book. Keeping in mind that the majority Country A does as well.

Dude B believes in the standard of values given by the Jewish book. Again keeping in mind that the majority does too.

Both countries believe in democracy, as they both voted to elect their Leader.


Both countries are also at war with eachother, not a declared war, but bombings and terror attacks, they have been doing this for a long time.


Which side is Just And Right? Which one should the US support as being the country believing in Freedom and Democracy?



Between the US and either one of those countries, I would obviously choose the US to live in, but i don't imediatly assume that dudes (and countries) A and B are evil, and should be taken over and brought to Democracy (never mind that they already were democraticly electing their leaders).
Freedom itself is a very vague term to use, true freedom means i'm free to kill my neighbor if they piss me off. Below that it's all shades of grey.



Hippie pretty much hit the nail on the head though, they can elect whoever they want, and the US can kill them for it.



As to the US itself, i have a strong distaste for what they are doing. From a tactical standpoint (with the objective being to rule the world, or most of it), they are on a truely genius path to it, pretty much exactly how i would go about it even. Despite that, i don't think it is what they should be doing.


On the very first origional point, the world is deffinitely on the edge, i expect to see things come crashing down (or at least violantly rearange themselves) within my lifetime.

[Hippie3]

i cringe at the concept of a
'just war'.
frankly i see war and morality as fundamentally incompatible,
and all the talk about freedom and justice,
on both sides,
is just propaganda meant for mass consumption
by the simple people who just
need a slogan to believe in.
i knew an army colonel who spoke the truth plainly-
ultimately war is about economics.
not justice.
but those of us who want justice
can support an amoral war
for our own reasons.
it's a useful tool,
albeit not one i'd choose to use myself
if it were up to me.
but it's not.
so i pick the side i like,
right or wrong.
such concepts are subjective,
your right is my wrong.

[SharkieJones]

I'm sure that all hell will break loose when the Israelis bomb the Iranian reactor. Perhaps a nuclear war will break out over there and both countries will be destroyed. I feel that things are rapidly heading in that direction. I'm sure we will all find out which way the world is heading very soon.

[Dogfield]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

ah, but they are just killing birds.
once the virus crosses the species barrier
into humans
it's not the birds that carry it,
it's us.
and now we fly long distances.
if such a flu virus crossed species
5,000 years ago
only a few hundred humans would die.
the last really lethal modern global flu pandemic, in 1918,
killed 30 million.
5,000 years ago
there weren't even 30 million people on the entire earth.

I do see your point, however birds are infecting people now, but we have not yet seen a person contracting the virus from another person.

I think you have highlighted this particular point by mentioning the planet's rising population,the severity of desease, famine, and war can all be directly connected with the rising population of the planet.

[Hippie3]

indeed.
ever seen what happens
when one crowds too many rats into one cage ?
they go mad and begin eating each other
and even themselves. they gnaw off their own legs,
eat their own young, it's insanity.
and we're getting there.

and yes, the current bird flu cases involve
bird- to - human [?] transmission, we think.
[might be bird to pig then pig to human, more common and more likely]
but it requires prolonged and very close exposure,
eating infected meat, breathing infected feces/dust, etc.
not a great threat yet, except to birds.
but eventually the virus will learn how to go
human-to-human, it's just a matter of time.
and with a kill rate of 50-75% of infected humans,
and that's with good medical care,
the species is in grave peril.
the world economy would be the 1st casualty
as all movement stops across the planet.

[SharkieJones]

Perhaps the birdflu is the worlds way of reducing the overpopulation.

[Hippie3]

that would imply a world possessing conscious intent.

[Dogfield]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

that would imply a world possessing conscious intent.

Yeh man. Mother Earth is pissed so she is showing us whats what.

[Raul del Angelo]

I think your view of the history of Israel is way off.
There never has been a UN resolution that
sanctified Israel. The UN resolutions(191 and SC68) were only
for ending the hostilities. In June of 1948 Zionist's violated
the cease fire and routed 726,000 Arabs from their land
and made them refugees in other countries. The Zionists
took the lands that the UN had recommended and 78%
of the land that was set aside for the Arabs in the UN
recommended treaty. The Arabs were conquered and
expelled from their own country.

The thought that the Israelis are entitled to these
lands because they lived there thousands of years
ago is without precedent. A good history of Israel and
Palestine can be found at:
http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm

The UN has issued a few resolutions condemning
the Israeli's. In the years from 1955 to 1992
the following resolutions were issued by the
United Nations condemning Israel.
106,111,127,162,171,228,237,248,250,251,252,
256,259,262,265,267,270,271,279,280,285,298,
313,316,317,332,337,347,425,427,444,446,450,
452,465,467,468,469,471,476,478,484,487,497,
498,501,509,515,517,518,520,573,587,592,605,
607,608,636,641,672,673,681,694,726,799 and
an unnumbered resolution for violations of the
Fourth Geneva Convention
All of these resolutions were for aggression against
Arab peoples.

I am not an Arab apologist. What I seek to show
is that we have supported the conquering of these
people and their angry about it. We have the
appearance of conquering another Arab country
right now.

Arabs are a geopolitical group that are linked unlike
anyother I can think of. They have a cohesion that
you won't find in North or South Americans, Europeans,
Africans or anyplace else. It is the reason why this
conflict has spread as it has.

Peace, Raul

Originally Posted by Hippie3

exactly.
no one gave hitler a free pass just because the germans elected him.
and the german people had to suffer the consequences of their choice.
so too, now, must the palestinians.
old adage-
they made their bed
and now they must sleep in it.

Ahem. How many times have you declared that somebody just lost the argument for invoking hitler?

Now you've done it. You lose. What were we fighting about? I forgot.
RR

[Hippie3]

forgot ?
i doubt that,
i don't think you ever knew.

[SharkieJones]

If the United States wasn't in bed with the Israelis forever, I think that there would be alot less animosity in the region. The way I see it is that the Israelis conquered the country. So why can't we leave them alone to lie in their own bed. They should hold the land without aid from the United States. I would like to see them stand on their own for once without military aid from the U.S..
Probably none of my business but what's with all the rivalry between Hippie and Rodger? Can't we all just get along?

[Lefty]

Ocassionally they do, but it is semi-rare. I fear there is quite a history there, intellectual dueling as is were. Consult the archives if you're actually wondering, in this forum. Fuckin' fascinating if you have an eye for nuances.

[SharkieJones]

LOL

[Hippie3]

The thought that the Israelis are entitled to these
lands because they lived there thousands of years
ago is without precedent

typical disinformation.
the jews did not just live there thousands of years ago,
they have been living there all this time,
for at least 2500 years.
they never left.
they were there
before mohammed was born,
before there was such a thing as a moslem.
they were there when the moslems invaded,
conquering jerusalem, burning, killing and
destroying homes of the jews and christians.

Arabs are a geopolitical group that are linked unlike
anyother I can think of. They have a cohesion that
you won't find in North or South Americans, Europeans,
Africans or anyplace else

nonsense.
the arabs are every bit as fractured as the euros ever were,
if not worse.
they have never been able, in modern times, to unite
except in their xenophobic hatred
of all things christian/jewish.

[Raul del Angelo]

Instead of relying on your memory its best to
read the history. Early in the first millenia was
the second Jewish Diaspora. So from about
500AD till early in the 1900's the Jews were
not a significant population in Palestine. The first
Diaspora also removed the Jews earlier. Often
to stimulate support for the Zionists, history
gets bent pretty severely.

I would be glad to read your version of the history
of Palestine. Please post a link.

As far as Arab hatred, I think your including Christianity
in Arab hatred for Jews is way off. There has always
been a Christian contingent to Arabia.

Peace, Raul

[Hippie3]

the Jews were
not a significant population in Palestine

lol
not 'significant' to whom ?
i'd wager that the jews consider themselves 'significant',
even if you don't.

the facts i stated are true-
the jews have continuously lived in palestine for at least 2,500 years ,
sometimes in large numbers
and yes, sometimes their numbers dwindled
but never to zero-
that however was due to foreigners
who killed them, enslaved them, etc.
to steal their land.

but the jews never abandoned their homeland,
not to the persians nor the assyrians
not to the romans
and not to the muslims either.
it is a fact
that there were no muslims in palestine before 633 AD-
there were jews and christians.
the jews were there first,
and never left,
it is the moslems who came as invaders,
stealing the land.

ps-
i know history better than you so spare me your snide remarks,
you hadn't even heard of the little ice age
and you presume to tell me
I need to read history ?

here-
you go read some history-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ajnadayn

[pskovinsky]

Thing is, by that logic, we should give the US back to the various tribes of Native Americans, or at least support them if they attack to regain their lands.

I spent a day going through the Jewish History Museum in Berlin last year about this time, that was an interesting experiance. Especially going with a half jewish girl (the lesbian virgin some of you may remember).

What i remember from it locations wise, is that the jews have been living all over the place, the main concentration has moved every time whatever country they were living in got pissed off at them (which happened a solid four(or more?) times since 0ad, some we're large scale like WW2, some were a nation-city giving them the boot). Germany was just the most recent country to decide they didn't want the jews living in their country.

Some of those wars (like WW2) the jews we're unfortunate bystanders, picked as a target for national hatred, other times it stemmed from them refusing to live by the country they were in's laws.


To my eyes, either we give everybody their land back, or we don't.
I don't really want to give my yard back to the american indian tribe(s) that used to live here, i doubt mexico wants to give it's land back to the various tribes/nations that lived there.

Quite personally, i see our support of Israel as a clever money making scheme for the US government, we get to sell various military bits we don't need, and get a nice fat chunk of cash in return.
Unfortunately, in doing so we've pissed off some Muslims, and they've rallied some more Muslims, and now we've got a nice big ole load of Muslims coming down our throat.

[Hippie3]

no one 'gave' israel back to the jews-
they took it back for themselves.
if the indians can re-take america
i say go for it.

but the simple truth is that
the moslems stole the land from the jews,
and their only claim to legitimacy
is how long ago it was.

so by that logic
the jews just need to hold on to the land
they re-took by force from moslems.
that's how that game is played.

[pskovinsky]

We're supporting them, though, thats what i was talking about.

Without our support, i highly doubt that they would still exist today.


Sidenote: I lol'd about rodgers comment on hip using Hitler.

[SharkieJones]

When the Jews took Palestine by force I wonder where they suddenly materialized an airforce from. Since they really were living under the yolk of the British with supposedly no weaponry allowed. Truth is the U.S. needs a staging ground in the middle east to implement it's foreign policy, a friendly island in the sea of unfriendly Islamics. Maybe the Israelis should give the Palestinians casinos.

[Hippie3]

show evidence that the us govt. gave those airplanes to israel.

the truth is israel has many friends in many nations,
and many private citizens funneled guns and money.
your argument about the usa needing a staging ground/base has one fatal flaw-
the usa does not base any troops in israel, never has.


we do of course 'support' israel, we give aid.
but we also give 'support' to israel's enemies,
both egypt and jordan were in on the wars against israel
but choose instead to pursue peace
and so now get billions of $$ a year from the usa.

also one needs to evaluate the situation in context,
the soviets were arming the arabs
so as a natural extention of the cold war
we began arming the other side.

but if you take a closer look at history
you'll find that france and britain were far more
instrumental in helping the jews form a state than the usa was,
our support did not come until later,
once the communist soviet union began pouring
money and weapons into arab arsenals,
we likewise armed israel to create a
balance of power.

this was done to prevent further war
and it worked.
there has been no war between israel and its' arab neighbors
in over 30 years.
it's not because the arabs suddenly grew fond of the jews that wars stopped,
it's only because the jews were well armed and able to defend themselves.

[Lefty]

The Indians don't a drunk leg to stand on, but I honestly wish it were that way because they wouldn't fuck it up half as bad as big $ did.
Without the U.S. at the U.N. level, muchless cash allowed to flow directly from the U.S. the "nation" of Israel, it would have fallen on it's ass a long time ago. They didn't invent the F-15's they fly, no kibbutz could have bought them w/o U.S. aide directly, and no way in what Jewish call hell trained pilots to fly them. It's a puppet that got on it's feet, any way you slice it. More power to it, has the balls to pull the moves & weather the hell it recieves. I applaud them but they sucked more than a little dick to get there.

[Hippie3]

not at all true.
israel makes most of its' own armaments,
and they are some of the best in the world.
hell, even we buy their stuff,
ever heard of an uzi ???
they also invented the remotely piloted drone
that evolved into our global hawk/predator system.

further
they were not flying f-15s
when they beat the arabs in 1948 or 1957.
they beat them the old fashioned way,
man to man.

btw
lefty-
don't think i missed your remark about
drunken indians-
you fucking know better, man.

[Stenciler]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

not at all true
israel makes most of its' own armaments,
and they are some of the best in the world.
(elipsis)
further
they were not flying f-15s
when they beat the arabs in 1948 or 1957.
they beat them the old fashioned way,
man to man.

They were pretty tough in the past, and I'll warrant they still are. Problem is, they're STILL being funded by us for religio/political reasons, and may become a monster we helped create.
Found this:
http://www.fas.org/asmp/profiles/israel.htm
But for those that hate reading long articles on computer screens _
here's a few quotes on money:
"when an agreement with Syria was under discussion, Israel floated a $17 billion wish list. "
"in FY 2001 foreign military financing for Israel is expected to approach $1.98 billion."
(note this is just foreign military financing, not including sale of technologies, or economic stipends funneled to military/industrial sources; as you said hip they do indeed make their own weapons which we buy)
and on times when we turned a blind eye:
"in April 1998, Israel informed the United States after the fact of a transfer of the fuselage of a crashed F-16 jet to a private Israeli firm, Elbit, for use in other weapons testing (letter from U.S. Department of State to Congress, January 7, 1999)."
"The violations include sales of sensitive U.S. items and technology to countries prohibited by U.S. law from receiving such items."
"According to the findings of the Cox Committees congressional report, Israel has "offered significant technology cooperation to the PRC, especially in aircraft and missile development," including helping China build its current F-10 fighter jet. The Chinese F-10 is virtually identical to the discontinued Israeli Lavi fighter, an aircraft designed using $1.5 billion in American aid. "
and regrettably why I believe we should withdraw support:
"Israel is a democracy that protects the human rights of its citizens. In its battle against guerilla forces, however, Israel has a pattern of disregarding the rights of civilians and accepted international humanitarian law...In Israel's occupied territories, both Israeli and Palestinian Authority security forces have committed human rights abuses."
to find this info I just googled "who funds israeli arms"

[Hippie3]

we also fund the PLO, egypt, jordan, lebanon, saudi arabia, etc.
so why just cut off israel ?
isn't that biased ?
why don't you call for the total cut off of foreign aid to
all nations in the area
instead of just israel ??

btw the site you linked isn't exactly un-biased either
as a quick look at their home page clearly shows,
despite their innocent-sounding name
they have a leftist political agenda.