Bikers roll to military funerals to oppose anti-gay protests

[Felix]

-- Wearing vests covered in military patches, a band of motorcyclists rolls around the country from one soldier's funeral to another, cheering respectfully to overshadow jeers from church protesters.

They call themselves the Patriot Guard Riders, and they are more than 5,000 strong, forming to counter anti-gay protests held by the Rev. Fred Phelps at military funerals.

Phelps believes American deaths in Iraq are divine punishment for a country that he says harbors homosexuals. His protesters carry signs thanking God for so-called IEDs -- explosives that are a major killer of soldiers in Iraq.

The bikers shield the families of dead soldiers from the protesters, and overshadow the jeers with patriotic chants and a sea of red, white and blue flags.

"The most important thing we can do is let families know that the nation cares," said Don Woodrick, the group's Kentucky captain. "When a total stranger gets on a motorcycle in the middle of winter and drives 300 miles to hold a flag, that makes a powerful statement."

At least 14 states are considering laws aimed at the funeral protesters, who at a recent memorial service at Fort Campbell wrapped themselves in upside-down American flags. They danced and sang impromptu songs peppered with vulgarities that condemned homosexuals and soldiers.

The Patriot Guard was also there, waving up a ruckus of support for the families across the street. Community members came in the freezing rain to chant "U-S-A, U-S-A" alongside them.

"This is just the right thing to do. This is something America didn't do in the '70s," said Kurt Mayer, the group's national spokesman. "Whether we agree with why we're over there, these soldiers are dying to protect our freedoms."

Shirley Phelps-Roper, a daughter of Fred Phelps and an attorney for the Topeka, Kansas-based church, said neither state laws nor the Patriot Guard can silence their message that God killed the soldiers because they fought for a country that embraces homosexuals.

"The scriptures are crystal clear that when God sets out to punish a nation, it is with the sword. An IED is just a broken-up sword," Phelps-Roper said. "Since that is his weapon of choice, our forum of choice has got to be a dead soldier's funeral."

The church, Westboro Baptist Church, is not affiliated with a larger denomination and is made up mostly of Fred Phelps' extended family members.

During the 1990s, church members were known mostly for picketing the funerals of AIDS victims, and they have long been tracked as a hate group by the Montgomery, Alabama-based Southern Poverty Law Center's Intelligence Project.

The project's deputy director, Heidi Beirich, said other groups have tried to counter Phelps' message, but none has been as organized as the Patriot Guard.

"I'm not sure anybody has gone to this length to stand in solidarity," she said. "It's nice that these veterans and their supporters are trying to do something. I can't imagine anything worse, your loved one is killed in Iraq and you've got to deal with Fred Phelps."

Kentucky, home to sprawling Fort Campbell along the Tennessee line, was among the first states to attempt to deal with Phelps legislatively. Its House and Senate have each passed bills that would limit people from protesting within 300 feet of a funeral or memorial service. The Senate version would also keep protesters from being within earshot of grieving friends and family members.

Richard Wilbur, a retired police detective, said his Indiana Patriot Guard group only comes to funerals if invited by family. He said he has no problem with protests against the war but sees no place for objectors at a family's final goodbye to a soldier.

"No one deserves this," he said.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/02/21/fun....ap/index.html

If i hear of a funeral near me that they are going to you beter belive i'm showing up with a big flag.

[dead_diver]

I have to admire members of the Patriot Guard Riders for showing restraint and not kicking the crap out of those assholes.

[OmBudsMan]

Wow...phelps... religious fanatics... don't ever underestimate the stupidity of those who follow such a rev.

I'm just sorry that families of deceased soldiers have to be dragged into all of this by deillusioned religious fools.

[BuckarooBanzai]

"This is just the right thing to do. This is something America didn't do in the '70s," said Kurt Mayer, the group's national spokesman. "Whether we agree with why we're over there, these soldiers are dying to protect our freedoms."

Pardon my language, but STRAIGHT THE FUCK UP.

I may despise George Bush and his cronies, I may think this Iraq war is totall BS, I may even see the Illuminati everywhere, but I nonetheless respect our men and women in uniform completely and totally.

Anybody who blames the soldiers for this war is an idiot and an asshole. This schmuck Phelps could clearly use a personal visit from whoever enforces for the Patriot Guard. If anybody ever deserved a righteous stomping, it's him.

Anybody who ever spit on a Vietnam veteran for doing his/her duty can promptly take a long walk on a short pier. Or you could come over to my house and bash soldiers. I've got a few reality checks I'd like to cash on your ass.

The pinheads making policy deserve our derision. The soldiers deserve our undying grattitude and respect. Policy makers be damned! If it weren't for those Americans willing to pick up a gun and kill (or die) for this country, this country wouldn't exist.

[Hippie3]

Originally Posted by dead_diver

I have to admire members of the Patriot Guard Riders for showing restraint and not kicking the crap out of those assholes.

i'd admire them even more
if they did kick the shit out of phelps & co.


someone needs to, and PDQ.

It is absolutely amazing the hate religion spawns. I have never really gone to church and I don't believe in anything like the organized religions teach but my inlaws are devout in the Church of Christ. Their preacher told the congregation one day that the towns that katrina hit deserved it because they were soaked in sin....lmao...My inlaws are from southern MS with much family still there. Needless to say they stood up voiced there opinion and left the church. I told them that I have always thought their preacher was a dick because of his flambouyant attitude and narrow-minded behavior. They now agree with me...lol. One good thing that came about all of that was the fact that my inlaws now think for themselves a little bit more so I must say thank you to that narrow minded preacher.

[OmBudsMan]

Religion has many benefits I believe even though I have been to church maybe 2-3 times in my entire life. Its open interpretation has helped many people across the world deal with issues that they otherwise would not have been able to if they didn't turn to "God" or a higher power to deal with it. Unfornunately, that same open interpreation is what also allows mentally unstable persons to gather their own thoughts on such issues as Katrina, War in Iraq, etc. and try to press those beliefs and ideas onto others.

[Lefty]

Wheres the Rabbit choir to preach to?

People don't have the freedom of speech to scream FIRE in a crowded theater, nor do they have an inherent right to disturb the peace. Disturbing a funeral is doing just that. Now we need a sheriff not afraid to bust phelps to protect the dignity of the funeral, and simply say afterward, "sue me".
RR

[BuckarooBanzai]

Give me one, just ONE, example of good that has come as a result of organized religion.

I'm not talking about charity work. I'm talking about the life of the "average" member of a congratation. Give me even ONE example of a positive effect that religion has had on it's followers.

I hate to trounce the 12 steppers, but giving your problem to God to solve is a copout. I mean, according to the religious, God only gives you trials you can succeed at. To me, it's spitting in his face to ask him to solve the problems you came here to live through.

Originally Posted by rodger

Now we need a sheriff not afraid to bust phelps to protect the dignity of the funeral, and simply say afterward, "sue me".

Very well said, Rodger, very well said. Laws only get made (or changed) when such things happen.

[Mind]

I totally agree with you about organized religion BB, but i remember a stable argument about how we wouldnt of made it this far without it as a pseudo-structure for the majority of human evolution.
I however see it as a best guess that snowballed to far and now is an iceburg in the center of a desert, crowded with ppl begging for water, when there is none.
Itd be nice to have a handy refute to people who claim we wouldnt of made it this far without it.

We wouldn't be at this stage of development without religion-we would be WAY past where we are now. Over half of the American population believes the world is only 6,000 years old, and Satan planted the dinosaur bones to lead us astray. Such beliefs drain the brain pool of available scientists.
RR

[Hippie3]

i admit to being a bit disappointed in y'all.
it's my opinion that if you cannot see any good
that religion has done for mankind
it's only because you are willfully blind.

sure, there is bad, too.
but it's not all bad,
as billions of your fellow humans would testify,
including myself.
religion helps turn predators into neighbors.

All i can say is wow, wish that fucked would show up around here..
I'd make a visit and make you guys proud, stomp that Phelps asshole.

[Felix]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

i admit to being a bit disappointed in y'all.
it's my opinion that if you cannot see any good
that religion has done for mankind
it's only because you are willfully blind.

sure, there is bad, too.
but it's not all bad,
as billions of your fellow humans would testify,
including myself.
religion helps turn predators into neighbors.

There has been no bigger cause of murder, AKA humans killing humans then religion.. period.

George carlin did a some stand up regaurding this subject.
a quote from his stand up "My god has a bigger dick than your god!"

Originally Posted by Hippie3

religion helps turn predators into neighbors.

Perhaps we don't want predators for neighbors!

The Catholic sex scandals are just one side of the coin. The rates of child molestation and divorce are much higher in the protestant bible belt of the US south than in the 'heathen' northwest and northeast.

Further, it's hard to see much good coming from the religion that made Copernicus, Galileo and hundreds of other scientists hide their research and findings because they faced death for contradicting religion with mere scientific and mathematical facts. Mariners learned to magnetize a needle, then let it float on water so it would line up north/south, but they had to keep it secret or be burned at the stake for witchcraft.

Hundreds of years ago you say? Consider today when 'God' speaks to bush, telling him to run for president, and that many pharmacies won't carry birth control pills, and bush's handpicked head of the FDA rejected the morning after pill as 'unsafe' even though it has been proved safe all over Europe and elsewhere, including the FDA's own study, which he rejected in favor of church/state politics. Churches defy their tax free status to endorse candidates for public office, often illegally printing up 'voter guides' to tell the flock for whom they should place their vote, in almost all cases picking candidates from the party that publicly pushes Faith Based Initiatives which puts yours and my tax money into their bank coffers.

The most vile and racist hate speech I've ever heard came from within church walls. I'll never forget the time a black family came to visit our church(Church of Christ) when I was fifteen years old. One of the elders got up and immediately went to where they were seated to announce in language loud enough to hear across the auditorium, driving directions to the 'nigger church', as he called it. They even re-invented Jesus in their own image by drawing him with straight blonde hair and blue eyes. How many blue-eyed blonde middle eastern Jewish men have you ever seen?

If you read the documents from the American South during the slavery era, almost all of them quote the 'holy scripture' to justify holding slaves.

I don't believe in outlawing religion, but I think the world will be a much better place when people realize we must be proper stewards of the planet, rather than 'having dominion' over all living things, because our real home is somewhere else, such as heaven.
RR

[Hippie3]

There has been no bigger cause of murder, AKA humans killing humans then religion.. period.

you cannot prove that to be true,
i'd bet lust and jealousy has killed more.
ditto for greed and ambition.
you can't even really show that religion
is the actual cause for deaths attributed to it.

but i'll concede
that many murderers have used
religion as an excuse.
a subtle yet very important distinction
apparently lost on many
who 'hate' religion
as much as any zealot ever hated an infidel.

[Hippie3]

Perhaps we don't want predators for neighbors!

you don't have any choice.
we are all predators
and we'd be even worse
if there was no religion to
civilize the worst among us.

if you think it's bad now
just try living on an earth
with NO moral guidance for anyone.
that is how animals live.

most of us
would never even survive childhood.

[Hippie3]

The rates of child molestation and divorce are much higher in the protestant bible belt of the US south than in the 'heathen' northwest and northeast.

prove that if you can.
then show causality.

[maynardsdick]

religion has done all it can do for us. its impeding our evolution. it is time we discard it and opt for an age of reason.

[Hippie3]

now that i could agree with.
we need a new rational science-based 'religion'

[maynardsdick]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

now that i could agree with.
we need a new rational science-based 'religion'

are you being sarcastic?

[Hippie3]

only a little...

[maynardsdick]

there cant be anything wrong with being rational

[Felix]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

if you think it's bad now
just try living on an earth
with NO moral guidance for anyone.
that is how animals live.

you can be moral and not religious, just like you can be religious and not moral

[OmBudsMan]

Originally Posted by maynardsdick

there cant be anything wrong with being rational

What is rational to one person, may not be rational to another. It is a very subjective term.

[maynardsdick]

Originally Posted by OmBudsMan

What is rational to one person, may not be rational to another. It is a very subjective term.

give me an example.

[OmBudsMan]

Well, there are a many. But to use one that is off the topic and simple, you need not look further than many of the parenting scenarios. What may be rational for a teenager to go through with a certain act, a parent might think it is outrageous. In this case, for Rev.Phelps it's perfectly rational to protest at a dead soldiers funeral whereas to many of us it is crossing way over the line. Don't get me wrong, i personally believe the rev deserves a beating as many here have mentioned, but you can't claim that something is irrational just because the majority doesn't favor it.

[Frankie]

Many years ago I went to bible collage and spent 4 years of my life immersed in evangelical pentecostal Christianity. When I first went to school I did it because of a deep love of god. I didn't know if I wanted to be a minister but I wanted to serve god in a productive way. I thought if others knew how much god loved them it would make them better people.
However the longer I was in school it became evident that loving god and other people were not as important to this form of Christianity as was having good hair. In fact there were as many classes offered in proper dress as there were in critical thought.
Although I was thoroughly disillusioned I finished school and was ordained. I never used my credential and since that time I don't even call myself a christian.
As for the rev I think perhaps he protests too much. I think hes a closet cock sucker immersed in self hate. Remember the mayor in Washington?

But enough rambling. What I wanted to say is that Religion may be one of the most destructive forces on earth but that's because people like Fred Phelps forget that Jesus was not about hate. He stood between the whore and the "church people" who were going to kill her and it was that act of love that brought about her repentance not the threat of death. If he would just remember that He probably wouldn't be such an asshole.

[Hippie3]

Originally Posted by OmBudsMan

What is rational to one person, may not be rational to another. It is a very subjective term.

rationality is not as much
subjective
as it is contextual.
n other words,
depends on the situation.

[Hippie3]

Originally Posted by Felix

you can be moral and not religious, just like you can be religious and not moral

i'd use the word
ethical, it's a fine distinction your webster's won't explain
but the difference is that ethics are based internally, personally
whereas morality is based external, thru culture.

[Hippie3]

btw
if any of you ever end up doing hard time in prison
i daresay you'll discover that religion has value
even to you.
it just might be the only thing keeping
you alive or sane.