Questions about spawn bags, pressure cookers and Impulse sealers.

[psychoknot]

FOAF wants to use worm castings as bulk subsrate per this tek, however... this FOAF hasn't grown the mycelium in a medium spawn bag (the unit of measure for volume of spawn to use in the tek), the FOAF used pint jars.

After using the forum search function (why so inefficient?), nothing was produced.

FOAF looked online to determine volume of medium spawn bag, converted this to cups, and got 27.something cups, or about 13.something-else pints. Somewhat disconcerting considering the amount of spawn available to this FOAF. Of course it occured to this FOAF that the tek could be manipulated with cunning to fit the amount of spawn available, but this FOAF wanted to hear from people who have used medium spawn bags.

Does anyone have, from personal experience, an estimate for how much spawn (in cups) is yielded by a medium spawn bag?

The administrators are still working hard to get the site search function up to par. It's part of the growing pains of our update to a new board, so bear with us.

I would consider three of your pints equal to one medium spawn bag.

[highflyer]

I can tell you that the large size bags can easily accomidate 7 level quart jars worth.

[Hippie3]

lol
reckon it depends on how much one puts in the bag
but i know
it would hold much more than i would use,
smaller batches sterilize better.
i place about a full quart of rye in the medium [8 inch wide] bags,
leaving plenty of room for some air inside.
one could easily use 2-3 that muchand still do very well.

[highflyer]

Originally Posted by highflyer

I can tell you that the large size bags can easily accomidate 7 level quart jars worth.

Only use the larger amounts in the bags if you are doing g2g transfers and not starting from spores....

Longer PC times may also be necessary for larger amounts.

[psychoknot]

Sounds like my FOAF is in good shape for his first casing.

[Hippie3]

Only use the larger amounts in the bags if you are doing g2g transfers and not starting from spores....

Longer PC times may also be necessary for larger amounts.

that bears repeating

[psychoknot]

I want to apologize for the Why So Inefficient comment.

I didn't mean mycotopia has a bad search function, it has a good one as far as forum searches go. I just don't know why forum searches on any site bring back so much stuff that is unapplicable.

[Hippie3]

gotta better define the search,
more keywords help

[destroy_erase_improve]

the only "problem" ive had with the search button is that it seems to promote my ADD lol. i search for something, it links me to something with a few different subthreads , a few extra links in the archives.and next thing i know, im all over the place, trying to absorb all kinds of different information. lol and half of it wasnt even what i was searching for.

but i guess thats not the boards fault
i need to upgrade my brain ram i think

[morthos]

Morning! First, could someone please give me a link to a vendor that sells spawn bags, or better yet, tell me of plastic bags that would do as well? I don't need an inoc. site - I'd do this in a glovebox.

If mailing time is too much, I'd try the following instead;

Start up a bunch of 1L~1.5L invitro brf/verm jars. My idea is to mix up/pc/inoc 125ml jars, then use those as spawn after they've colonized. 125ml's should colonize in 2~3wks, yes? I'd pc 3 500ml jars of substrate and mix the spawn within glovebox to fill the 1.5L jars. I should think the 1.5L jars would colonize & fruit in 2~3wks this way, with a total time from spore to giant Invitro fruit being 4~6 weeks.

Any thoughts? Thx!

[Hippie3]

Start up a bunch of 1L~1.5L invitro brf/verm jars. My idea is to mix up/pc/inoc 125ml jars, then use those as spawn after they've colonized. 125ml's should colonize in 2~3wks, yes? I'd pc 3 500ml jars of substrate and mix the spawn within glovebox to fill the 1.5L jars. I should think the 1.5L jars would colonize & fruit in 2~3wks this way, with a total time from spore to giant Invitro fruit being 4~6 weeks.

you're saying jars
but you mean bags, yes ?
the plan sounds reasonable
if a bit optimistic on the time frame

[Hippie3]

btw
my other site
www.mycrotopia.com
offers already filled & sterilized bags of our brf mix
at a reasonable price.

[petri]

Turkey bags withstand oven/pc temps if you need a bag like right now. Otherwise, I would recommend a bag with filter patch.

[morthos]

Thanks guys!

I am using jars for both the 125ml and 1.5L sizes, yes. I suppose adding a couple weeks would make the estimate more realistic. I've been having good spawning speed lately with Tapalpa.

I'll try turkey bags...I don't want to wait for shipping from the US. They can be found at large grocery stores, I assume.

[morthos]

If I go with turkey bags, should I create a breathing patch by duct-taping a piece of tyvek over a cut hole? If I were to inoculate or spawn into bags I'd be doing a good 6 quart volume per bag as I've an 8-quart pc. I could create this patch after pc'ing, inside a glovebox and during some manner of inoculation.

Do turkey bags breathe, or should I try the above so the substrate has gas exchange for colonization?

[morthos]

Come to think of it, why not simply try growing within bags with a number of tyvek patches? Let the substrate colonize and fruit in the bag?

Patches would have to be built into the bag post-pc within a glovebox. At least one patch should be below the mass to encourage CO2 to fall out of the bag...that might mean inserting a plastic mesh 1/4" thick under the mass(post-pc and in glovebox again) and patches under that for air flow...

Does this make sense? The # and size of tyvek patches takes some thought...

Any comments?

[SolveEtCoagula]

So in the corner I've been hiding in for the past few months I have attempted bulk spawn bags. More than 20

I can get quart jars to work when ever I want but these spawn bags are giving me hell. I bought the damn 100$ impulse sealer so I am quite content on making them succeed.

Problem: After sterilization and innoculation they seem fine for several days. By the 3rd or 4th day there is never any signs of growth. The bags expand with air and water collects on the sides of the bags. The water drips down onto the spawn and causes wetspot and the the bag goes to hell. I've tried every trick in the book according to the threads and write ups I have read and can't figure out why the hell it is doing this. I am leaning towards the spawn being to saturated but I am using rye grain and corn (in seperate bags of course) and having the same problem.

Could it be too much heat being applied to them through the heatpad? I buffered the bags between the heat pad by using a bunch of shirts and books so this is seeming unlikely. I think maybe too much soaking when doing the presaok I may cut it down to 10 hours because 15 and 24 (ones I have always used and recomende din most teks) result in the same problem....

Any ideas?

[lost_onabbey_rd]

first off WELCOME ABOARD MATE
if it is wet spot then the spawn in to wet.. the moister in the bag doesn't come from nowhere... might want to double check your grain prep tek... towel dry the grain before loading the bags .. or or maybe add a little dry verm in there to help soak up some of that extra moisture... some more details could really help out in determining your problem, such as what your grain prep tek
good luck
LOST

[karlfinn]

Hmmm..your soak time seems ok, make sure you let it drain really well. ARe you going over 80 degrees with the heat pad..if so it could be getting too hot..those big bags build up alot of heat all on their own, especially when grouped together with too much insulation. are you using a hepa hood to work in?
That bacillus is either not getting taken care of in processing or it is coming in thru
post-sterile contams. A little condensate in the bags should not cause wet spot all on its own . Just IMO though.

[nomoreusmc]

my inverto jars did the same thing, my solution was to keep them warmer. ~ 80F the water vaporizes and no more problem.

[nomoreusmc]

BTW the heating pad thing, bad idea. Its a fire hazzard.

[SolveEtCoagula]

Thanks I am gonna try adding just alittle verm to them and heat pads won't be needed due to weather changing soon (hopefully).

My grain prep tek before now has always been to soak them for 15-24 hours, take them out, pour them on beach towels, let them sit for awhile and brush dry them with the towel. Then when I think they are ready I just loadem up into bags and pc them.

I know it is a moisture problem I just wasn't sure what was causing it.

The expansion of air in the bag several days after kind of baffled me. I was thinking that it had more to do with it by creating a dome for water to evaporate, rise up, and cling to until it finally built up enough that it 'rained' heh. The hydrologic cycle in a bag =( I have no clue how ot make the bags not expand with air after several days of incubation it just expands like a baloon very slowly.

Anyways I am starting to think its a combination of heatpad+too much moisture thanks for the verm tip I will try it.

[lost_onabbey_rd]

well how long are you PC those things... i've heard people say mycobags should go for NO LESS then 2 hours... might not be cooking them long enough... and when you say they blow up like a ballon... does it have a filter in it?
i have no real experience with myco bags so all i can give ya is hear say... but i will be doing one of rye in the next few days so hopefully it will turn out alright... good luck
LOST

I think its normal for gas pressure to build up in myco bags as the myc or bacteria convert the carbohydrates into co2 gas, even with a filter patch the bag is supposed to expand....thats what it said when i recieved a spawn bag of rieshi a while ago.

If anything, your grain is too dry sol. Welcome back by the way. . . I wondered what became of you. I soak for 24 hours, then boil for a few minutes. I'm sure the condensation is from temperature changes. Your heating pad probably has a ten degree or so differential and that's too much. First, shitcan the heating pad anyway, as they're nothing but trouble. Room temperature will work just fine, even if it takes a day or two longer. If it's too cold in the room, simply run a space heater to take the chill out of the air. Try to keep the temperature as stable as you can. Wild swings will build up moisture on the sides of your bags and ruin your project.

[Hippie3]

i don't think the bags are getting fully sterile,
i suspect that bloating up of the bag
is caused by gases being released during
intense bacterial growth.
i'd drain better and pc longer

[Hippie3]

btw i've been getting decent results by soaking a full day
draining, then soaking a few hours longer in a bleach solution
then i place rye in burlap sacks to store/drain.

[SolveEtCoagula]

Yea, I tend to dissapear for long periods of time. Sometimes lifes better lived not always lookin over your shoulder :P I try to make sure I never get caught up again.

Thanks a lot for the advice im going to try both ways, some with verm and some with more moisture.

The grain was always bendable with just my fingers squishy but not mushy. I figured that was plenty of moisture.

Yes, the bags have a filter patch they are the ones from ****************************************. I also pc'd them for 2 and half hours. Maybe 3 is better hell if I know looks like I got alot more trial and error ahead of me.

BTW: Kick ass new boards :P When I went to old site to check up on things I saw the post about it being closed down and thought some bunk shit went on till I read bit more hah =) Very happy to see things still up and runnin.

[karlfinn]

Hey Hip , I like that bleach/burlap drain tek, I'll give it a try. thanx for the R&D.
that's the way we use to malt rye and corn for moonshine..right in the bag till it sprouted. but that's another story. but I never thought of it for draining my grains..
I have big nylon-mesh bags which do the same thing..burlap is hard to find anymore around here. gotta try this..

[Hippie3]

..burlap is hard to find anymore

i buy my rice 20-50 pounds at a time
it comes in burlap bags mostly
so i just re-cycled the empties

[Hippie3]

Yes, the bags have a filter patch they are the ones from ****************************************. I also pc'd them for 2 and half hours.

assuming you sealed them ok,
that should be enough time in the pc
might consider getting a different source
for your rye,
could be a bad batch there

[taoistshredder]

I've been having the same kind of problems with mine; PCed a whole lot of rye (that whole 50 lb. bag I got) in a week, in 20-or-so bags, and now a week and a half later, all but 3 are green. I don't know where I fucked up, but it's obvious I did. From what I've seen, lots of people fuck these up, so I guess I'll just keep trying...

[Hippie3]

try the bleach soak
after the regular soak
i figure the 1st soak
hatches the endospores and breeds tons of bacteria
so why not trim that back some
before it even hits the pc ?
i drain off that nasty brown soak water,
refill with fresh and add a couple glugs of chlorox
and let it soak a few hours minimum
then drain,
pour into burlap
rinse again with fresh water
drain about an hour
and load jars.
store in fridge un-used rye in burlap
and it'll keep several days.

Glugs...LOL

[BuckarooBanzai]

I know these questions have been dealt with before, but there is some kind of confusing information in the archives so I’m going to play the rampant noob and ask ‘em all again!

I am interested in experimenting with spawn bags, but I’m not interested in doing a lot of them. I can have 6 of 8 cake projects fail (or succeed wildly) and not loose a lot of sleep. Bags, however, are going to take up a lot of space and produce a lot of fruit. Doing four and having one work will waste all my grow space. Doing four and having all four work out perfectly would actually be worse.

My spouse is going to be somewhat uncomfortable with four basketball sized projects fruiting at the same time. It’s fun to watch her eyes get big, but after the excitement wears off, she gets the paranoid heebie-jeebies and I hate that for her. After having flaunted so many rules and conventions for so many years, I’ve accepted the potential consequences (lets be honest, the EVENTUAL consequences – it’s all about playing the odds) of my hobbies/habits. This is why I keep a lawyer/bail fund in a safety deposit box, but that’s a whole different thread. The wife still likes to pretend that bad things don’t happen to good people. It’s harder for her to pretend that when she knows a boatload of fungi are maturing a scant few hundred yards away.

Anyway, my burning questions follow. Answer as many as you can stand without laughing…

• Do you seal your bags before or after you PC them? Why do you do it that way? If you don’t seal until after, how do you secure the bags for PCing?
• If I am using bags with vent patches, does that change the answer to question 1 in any way?
• What Impulse setting (surprise…they have a knob) do you use for polypropylene spawn bags? Do you also wish the knob went to 11?
• Do you double seal?
• Do you use injector port bags or tape/glue to seal the inoculation hole?
• Do you reuse your bags? If so, how many times and how do you clean them between uses?
• When you PC bags, do you allow any extra time for the larger volume of material?
• Have you ever fruited directly from/in a bag? If so, would you do it again?
• This is a stupid question, I know, but do you use the same substrate moisture ratios in a bag as you use in a jar?
• Were you hoping for another Spinal Tap reference?
• Have you ever been killed in a bizarre gardening accident?

Thanks, in advance, for your patience and any experience you are willing to provide.


Long live Mycotopia!

[morthos]

Good day sir!

Let me begin by saying that I've no experience with standard spawn bags, but I've glorious & proven experience using oven bags for a similar purpose, from which I will answer most of your Q's.

If you aren't familiar with my past growing, I have created the OBIRE tek,l embarassingly I've yet to do a formal writeup, but all the needed info is around here in my posts. That's Oven Bag Invitro Reservior Effect. I colonize WBS in jars, then mix it with prepared verm into a prepared oven bag, and fruit within that bag. With 3L of WBS & 3L of verm, I get about 3oz dry on the first harvest, with multiple declining-scale harvests to follow.

First, I have had bad experience with sterilizing substrate inside a bag in a PC. I tried this 3 times with a 1:1 brf:verm mix, and all of them ruptured enough to cause disaster. This may not be relevant, as others in the archives have likely done this in standard spawn bags with success.

Second, no, I don't think the presence of a patch alters PC'ing. If anything I might think it allows pressure to equalize within a bag, preventing rupture or some such.

3+4+5...not applicable.

Sixth, no, I do not reuse bags. I destroy each bag during harvest.

Seventh, not really. An hour in the PC should kill anything you can fit in there. Go for 75 min if you're paranoid.

Eighth, GOD YES!! If I grow again this is my way. Soooo low-maintenance & stealthy.

Ninth, that depends what you're comparing to. I hydrate the verm to capacity, which is typically 1/4 of it's volume in water. my WBS, popcorn or BRF is hydrated in a process I won't elaborate yet but I believe within the norm for other methods, yes.

Tenth, wouldn't hurt, but I'm too drunk to care

Eleventh, no, or I couldn't write this.

If you are willing to colonize a bunch of 500ml jars & grow invitro on a grand scale, pm me & I'll give you more details. Better yet, have a look at my past posts. No lights, heating, humidity control or odd gizmos.

Happy new year!

[siam_jim]

I’m not any expert but I have many on hand experiences with these bags
1 no I fold the flap over and under then put a few rubber bands to hold it down
2 yes, but still fold over and do the same
3 never use them..to expensive…staples are just fine.
4 yes but not really needed
5 yes after I inject from the top..i will make 5-10 hole in the same inject site
then tape it with medical tape
6. no
7 no…I start counting only when it reads 15psi
8 yes …it’s ok, yes I would do it again for space saving and less steps
9 yes
10 never..to got to many pain in the a—
11 nearly when a mole rat snuck up and out on me, thought it was the 2 step
viper…..had to wash my over-alls after that one.
note: after the pc cools down over night, i take the rubber band off then unroll carefully, then 1" from the top double fold and staple it down then about 1" from the stapled fold i would inject and make extra holes then tape it.
peace
siam

[bluecat]

i use spawn bags all the time for sawdust blocks. i seal before i pc. it takes quite a long time for bags to cool off. by having it sealed, it's clean and safe.the filter patch does not allow much air to pass thru. you want to get most of the air out of the bag before you pc.you do need to pc longer with heavy bags. mine are over 5 lbs. each. if i do 3 at a time, i pc for 2 hours.even 1 at a time, i would pc for 1.5 hours. i experimented with 3 at a time. 1 hour turned green. 1.5 hour didn't, so i go 2 hours to be safe.for sealing, it's easy. try it on the top of a bag. depends on the bags and the sealer. test the seal by squeezing the bag with air in it if it doesn't leak, ok. raise the temp till it melts thru the bag, then turn it down a bit. on mine, it seals good at 3.5. i only double seal if it looks like i didn't get it nice on first try.bags get kind of brittle after being used. not worth trying to use them again. they're cheap enough. i use sawdust spawn to innoc, but i have done lc without injection ports. inject and tape worked fine. try bags. good luck.

[TVCasualty]

Cheapest Impulse sealer I have found:
http://www.dougcare.com/packagingequipment/impulse0.htm

I got the FS300, only 50 bucks. Works great.

Don't forget to have clear packaging tape handy to patch any holes quickly and easily.

I also found stainless steel stockpots that fit nearly perfectly into my AA 941. (I had to bend the handles up to slide it in) I pack about 5 spawn bags into it, PC for 2 hours, lift out basket in front of laminar flow hood, easy! No water saturating lower bag, blowouts contained, etc.

TVC

[BuckarooBanzai]

Excellent information. Thank you all very much for your input, it is much appreciated. I believe my FOAF will be starting a bag project this weekend.

Thanks again!

[Hippie3]

Do you seal your bags before or after you PC them?

after.


Why do you do it that way?

as the bags heat up
the gases trapped inside expand
and need a way out
else the bags expand like balloons,
touch the metal sides of the pc and melt
or possibly even block the escape of steam,
causing over-pressure and possibly an explosion.


If you don’t seal until after, how do you secure the bags for PCing?

i roll them up and use a rubberband, which allows expansion as needed
but seals as it cools.



If I am using bags with vent patches, does that change the answer to question 1 in any way?

no.

What Impulse setting (surprise…they have a knob) do you use for polypropylene spawn bags? Do you also wish the knob went to 11?

i use setting #6,
the 'trick' to a good seal is to hold the sealer down firmly ~20-30 seconds AFTER
the heat kicks off, so the melted plastic fuses then cools.


Do you double seal?

i actually triple seal.

Do you use injector port bags or tape/glue to seal the inoculation hole?

silicon adhesive injection port.


Do you reuse your bags?
If so, how many times and how do you clean them between uses?

no.


When you PC bags, do you allow any extra time for the larger volume of material?

yes, the more in the bag, the longer i pc. i've found it's better to have several small bags than 1 big bag.


Have you ever fruited directly from/in a bag?


yes.

If so, would you do it again?

no.



This is a stupid question, I know, but do you use the same substrate moisture ratios in a bag as you use in a jar?

a bit less actually as bags do not breathe well.



Were you hoping for another Spinal Tap reference?

eh ?

Have you ever been killed in a bizarre gardening accident?

twice.

[BuckarooBanzai]

Cut/paste some info into my growing personal archives...

Thank you very much, good sir!!!

Oh, and the knob going to 11 and dying in bizarre gardening accidents were somewhat lame references to "This Is Spinal Tap," a most excellent Rob Reiner movie.

Again, many thanks!!!

[xxanxx]

^^A very excellent movie indeed!

[mushit]

Originally Posted by BuckarooBanzai

My spouse is going to be somewhat uncomfortable with four basketball sized projects fruiting at the same time. It’s fun to watch her eyes get big, but after the excitement wears off, she gets the paranoid heebie-jeebies and I hate that for her. After having flaunted so many rules and conventions for so many years, I’ve accepted the potential consequences (lets be honest, the EVENTUAL consequences – it’s all about playing the odds) of my hobbies/habits. This is why I keep a lawyer/bail fund in a safety deposit box, but that’s a whole different thread. The wife still likes to pretend that bad things don’t happen to good people. It’s harder for her to pretend that when she knows a boatload of fungi are maturing a scant few hundred yards away.

Ha Ha Ha. I hear ya there! When I first started this hobby my wife didn't want anything to do with it. Trouble with the law was her concern. Also, she didn't want my kids to find out. Neither did I, really. There would probably be some missing for sure........ If not, they have friends that would like some.
After a while she got used to it though. After a couple samples, I might add.

As for your questions, I hope they were answered by the more knowledgable people above.