Does religion come from a divine mushroom cult??

[mullugh]

Does anyone out there truly believe that all religion stems from neolithic man deliberately ingesting magic mushrooms as Wasson thought??

Just curious as I am reading an excellent book called 'Shroom - a cultural history of the magic mushroom' by andy letcher that has lots of info on these theories (and everything else shroom related).

I have not made my mind up on the issue.

[koldjgdaro]

I believe that all the religions stem from mysticism. Psychedelic mysticism is just one form of it. Transpersonal psychology can give you a good view on the subject if you wanna dwell on it. Read Stanislav Grof and C.G. Jung.

[iShroom]

i can see where he gets the idea.

personally, i am not one to believe in a higher being, i consider myself more of an atheist, though there have been times when i have had to think about it.

whenever i take mushrooms i feel much more connected to the earth and to people around me. i feel as though i have returned to a spiritual form and am venturing through pieces of me unreachable in my normal state of being.

[oibchip]

James Arthur seems to think so.

[Hippie3]

ALL is a pretty big word
when you're talking about hundreds of religions that used to exist
particularly in areas which are entheogen-poor.
science seems to indicate some area of the brain is hard-wired for 'religion'
which would mean no drugs would be needed.
seems certain at least some religions were not mushroom-inspired but arose
from ingesting poison, breathing toxic gases, blows to the head, high fever,
outright fraud, etc.

[koldjgdaro]

There are many many ways to reach a spiritual experience. Like I said before entheogens are just one of the many possible ways. Sensoric deprivation, illness, meditation, prayers are just some of examples. For some ppl it even happens spontaneously without any preparation.

Entheogens are merely keys to open the Doors of Perception of other realms.
There has also been some discussion around the so called "God gene", which says that not all of us have "the circuits in the brain" that can open our consciousness to spirituality.

God gene - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Sunstar]

Mul there is a video out based upon the subjest you brought up
and its directed at the christian faith
heres a link to the promo
The Pharmacratic Inquisition
But as for all of religion Ill agree with what Hip said and there was probably many reasons for belief in certain things or ways
that could in turn be viewed as religion

[mullugh]

Sorry, it was a bit general.
Does anyone beleive that the west (europe/Great Britain) ever had deliberate mushroom usage from Neolithic times onwards? A use that was forgotten in time or erased from history during the rise of christianity/catholisism.

Purely just for interest.

[mullugh]

oh, thanks for the link sunstar.

[Hippie3]

the discovery of the iceman in the alps would seem to support
at least the possibility of widespread use of mushrooms for many purposes
possibly including 'spiritual' uses
although i don't believe people from 10,000 years ago
had 'religion' in the sense of modern man's meaning for the word.
early writings don't go back that far, of course,
but what little records we do have seem to indicate that
religion was family/clan based with few if any formal rituals.
simple idolatry of the family's 'gods' , ancestor worship, totemism/animism mostly.
one must enter the realm of speculation to go much further,
we know neanderthals buried their dead but not why.

[aumbrellaforainydays]

we mustn't forget all those various plants which have also served to open this transformed spiritual consciousness. I say transformed because i believe that our basic skills of surviving were in a way spiritual akin to the grace and resiliency of scores of species of mammals able to niche out a living. This transformed consciousness could be catalyzed by either a deep earthly connection with the help of drugs or without. Buddha Sakyamuni is said to have smoked a bud of Cannabis a day. What of Siberian communities that ingested Amanita muscaria and its after product (the urine) or how closely it resembles the mushroom in the Rig Veda. You can even stretch across the sea to south america where ancient Mayans venerated some kind of mushroom with a depiciton of a man or spirit carved in it. To this day indians in the Mazatec still practice a practice of use with salvia, morning glory, and the psilocybe. and what of the Divine Cactus? Poyote, which is legal if used for religious ceremonies by the Native American Church? Finally what can we conclude about the seemingly ritual nature of alcohol, coffee and nicotine use? For some, without which ,their lives would not be as "fullfilling" than with them.

[mjshroomer]

Originally Posted by mullugh

Does anyone out there truly believe that all religion stems from neolithic man deliberately ingesting magic mushrooms as Wasson thought??
Just curious as I am reading an excellent book called 'Shroom - a cultural history of the magic mushroom' by andy letcher that has lots of info on these theories (and everything else shroom related).
I have not made my mind up on the issue.

Hello mullugh,
Many ethnomycologists are currently debunking a lot of Andy's book.
He was totally unaware of the happenings in the Pacific Northwest which began the shroom culture of this and the last century.

He provided a lot of false data and misinformation regardingthe historical chonology of the shrooms from the PNW and stuck to his nativce England as the source of the culture.

If you can read Dutch, below I have placed a link here from Mycotopia to one review of his book by Swiss Chemist and mycologist Dr. Tjakko Stijve, who recently retired from Nestles in Vevey, Switzerland. Dr. Stijve has published numerous articles in European Journals on magic shrooms and on trace elements in fungi.

But first a letter from Dr. Stijve and then one from Jan Irvin, the author of "Astrotheology and Shamanism" concerning this book and I note this authors email has been sent out to dozens of shroom scholars around the world and in the U.S.A.

This first letter is from Tjakko Stijve to me (March 30th, 2007) about the book before Dr. Stijve wrote the review in the Belgium/Swiss Journal posted in the URL below here at Mycotopia.

Dear John,
Thanks for drawing my attention to Andy Lester's "SHROOM, A cultural history of the magic mushroom". It was already rather positively reviewed in one of the leading Dutch newspapers (NRC Handelsblad of December 29th 2006). Indeed, the author is highly critical of all mushroom pioneers, especially of Gordon Wasson.

I have not seen the book yet, but will order it next week. I could indeed publish a critical review.

As you know, The Netherlands is still the only European country, where psychoactive 'shrooms may be sold freely. This may change. About 10 days ago a French schoolgirl, on visit with her class in Amsterdam, swallowed Paddo's, became confused, and killed herself by jumping from a bridge.

Now the Dutch Parliament discusses a possible prohibition, but many politicians are against it.

Best regards,
Tjakko

Here is Jan Irvin's email to me concerning Letcher's book on shrooms.

"Hi John,

This is Jan Irvin. I co-authored Astrotheology & Shamanism with Andrew Rutajit.
I sent this out tonight for the major researchers. Hopefully we can do something about this ASAP. I've read about 50 pages. We've got some debunking to do.
-----------------

This email is being sent to the following researchers in entheobotany and related fields:
Clark Heinrich
Mike Hoffman
Mark Hofmann
Rick Strassman
Dennis McKenna
Jack Herer
Chris Bennett
Andrew Rutajit
Judith Anne Brown

The reason this email is being sent out to everyone is because we have something that I deem as URGENT for follow researchers in this field. This email is going out in order to (hopefully) establish a collaborative effort in order to confront the matter at hand. Those who have contact, please also forward this email to Carl Ruck, Paul Stamets, Christian Rastch, Paul Devereux, Jim Dekorne, Ralph Metzner, Kat Harrison and anyone else currently involved in the study of ethnomycology / ethnobotany.

As you may or may not know, in February of this year Dr. Andy Letcher published his book called Shroom: A Cultural History of the Magic Mushroom.

http://www.amazon.com/Shroom-Cultura......0131&sr=8-1

In this book, Dr. Letcher attacks head on the works of Heinrich, Stamets, (T.) McKenna, Kat Harrison, Allegro, Wasson, Ruck and Herer and ourselves (though some of us not named directly), as well as many others. This is a frontal, academic attack in a well written and researched hard bound, 360 page book, published by HarperCollins. This book is receiving WINDOW STATUS at major book sellers such as Barnes & Noble and Borders Books. The book seeks to DISPROVE any entheogen (especially mushroom) theory to established religion, cultural identity, etc. except on a very small scale e.g. Maya, Mazatec, etc.

As I discussed with Mike H. this evening, the book seeks to show that there is zero archaeological/historical evidence of the mushroom/entheogen theory of religion. I’ve read about 1/6 of this 300 page (+ footnotes) book thus far. I zoomed to the bookstore last night in order not to delay its reading when I heard more specifics on its content. The book certainly does have its errors, as well as its points, and I think that all of us on a collaborative effort can debunk it, at least most of it, quickly. For instance, the book repeats the same errors regarding Allegro that Mike H. and I debunked last year: Wasson and Allegro on the Tree of Knowledge as Amanita . Our article also questions the integrity of some critical areas of Wasson’s research. However, Letcher seeks to utterly destroy G. Wasson’s research and reputation, singling him out specifically for the most ruthless attacks in the book. As

one reviewer writes on Amazon:
“Letcher pushes forward into the roots of the cultural movement that elevated the humble mushroom into an archaic religious symbol for an increasingly cynical age, and the primary target of this academic hit job is the legendary banker-turned-amateur ethnomycologist R. Gordon Wasson, the originator of the sacred mushroom myth. To say that Letcher has a bone to pick with Wasson would be putting it mildly. Let's just say Letcher barely masks his glee in annihilating this man's historical legacy, not only peeling apart his legendary theories one after the other, but criticizing the man himself for being somewhat stubborn and single-minded; too blinded by his own theory to do the proper research; too quick to mold the facts to meet his preconceptions; too arrogant and forthright to allow dissenting voices to penetrate his mythos. It is a view of Wasson I have never seen before -- including new insights into his relationship with Maria Sabina -- and like much of this book, contains a wealth of new material.”

I hope this email comes across as informational and organizational and not as anxious or over zealous. From what I’ve read so far, this book requires our immediate attention. Please order your copy ASAP and let’s begin to dissect this attack on this field of study.

Kindest regards,
Jan Irvin

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
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A REVIEW

Pubdate: Sun, 01 Apr 2007
Source: Washington Times (DC)
Copyright: 2007 News World Communications, Inc.
Contact: letters@washingtontimes.com
Website: The Washington Times, America's Newspaper
Details: MAP: Media Directory
Author: Jacob Sullum
Note: Jacob Sullum, a senior editor at Reason magazine, is the author
of "Saying Yes: In Defense of Drug Use" (Tarcher/Penguin).
Bookmark: MAP: mushrooms 1/1/1997 - 31/12/2007
Bookmark: MAP: psilocybin 1/1/1997 - 31/12/2007
THIS MAGIC MUSHROOM MOMENT
Shroom: A Cultural History of the Magic Mushroom, By Andy Letcher,
HarperCollins, $25.95, 360 pages
Not long ago, at a party in Amsterdam, I was about to swallow some
psilocybin mushrooms when the host interceded. Dividing the pieces
into two piles, he twirled a small metal ball hanging from a thin
chain above each, dangled the same "dowsing" device over my hand, and
after some contemplation pointed me to the pile that was right for
me. He also predicted, using amazingly precise but unverifiable
numbers, exactly how the mushrooms would affect me along several
different personality dimensions. This ceremony, akin to an
unsolicited palm, aura or astrological chart reading, did not enhance
my mushroom experience.
If you, like me, prefer your shrooms without the New Age baggage,
Andy Letcher's book is for you. In "Shroom: A Cultural History of the
Magic Mushroom," Mr. Letcher, a British writer and musician with a
doctorate in ecology and another in religious/cultural studies, is
careful to separate the truth about his subject from a "fantastical
history . . . dreamed up on the basis of wishful thinking and
overworked evidence."
Without dismissing the potential for mushroom-assisted mystical
experiences (a phenomenon explored in a government-funded study by
researchers at Johns Hopkins University that made headlines last
year), Mr. Letcher rejects the idea that psychoactive fungi
inevitably lead people in a specific spiritual or ideological
direction. At the same time, he scolds politicians for overreacting
to a practice that poses minimal risks and brings much-needed
"enchantment" to quotidian life.

Mr. Letcher emphasizes that the significance of mushrooming, like
that of other drug experiences, is "culturally contingent." In the
1960s, Americans and Europeans began to seek an experience they had
until then equated with poisoning, reinterpreting effects that were
once treated as signs of insanity or imminent death as an opportunity
to explore inner worlds and see the outer one in a new light. Mr.
Letcher's witty, entertaining and surprising book tells the story of
how this happened, chronicling the contributions of explorers,
naturalists, mycologists, philosophers, authors, charlatans, rock
musicians and psychedelic visionaries.

Some of the facts Mr. Letcher confirms are at least as strange as the
legends he debunks. Siberians, for instance, really do have a history
of consuming fly-agaric mushrooms not only directly but also
"distilled via human kidneys." Mr. Letcher speculates that they
discovered the psychoactive properties of the mushroom itself, and of
the urine excreted by people who have eaten it, by observing the
antics of reindeer. In the winter, the animals supplement their
meager diet of lichen by lapping up human urine, presumably for its
mineral content.

In addition to the Siberian example, which goes back centuries at
least, and there is substantial archeological evidence that
psilocybin mushroom use in Mexico and Central America, observed by
Europeans at the time of the Spanish conquest, has been going on for
thousands of years. Mr. Letcher notes that both the Siberians and the
Aztecs used psychoactive mushrooms recreationally as well as for
healing and prognostication.

But Mr. Letcher finds little or no evidence to support most of the
too-good-to-check claims about the role of intoxicating mushrooms in
human history. Do experiences with the fly-agaric mushroom lie behind
the legend of Santa Claus and his flying reindeer? Did witches,
Druids and whoever built Stonehenge partake? Was a fungus at the
heart of early Christianity, Vedic soma rituals and the Eleusinian
mysteries of ancient Greece? Did prehistoric use of psilocybin
mushrooms give birth to religion? Probably not, Mr. Letcher
concludes, although in many cases the answer is unknowable.
Given the fly-agaric mushroom's unpredictable psychoactivity and its
unpleasant side effects (including nausea and twitching), it is
remarkable that it figures so prominently in speculation of this
sort, not to mention in children's stories such as "Alice's
Adventures in Wonderland" and fantasy writing for adults. Mr. Letcher
suggests the fly-agaric's fictional popularity can be traced largely
to its distinctive appearance: red with white spots in a classic
toadstool shape, perfect for fairy tale illustrations. The more
user-friendly psilocybin mushrooms, which come from several species
and take various shapes, do not have the same iconic form.

The main conclusion Mr. Letcher draws after sorting fact from fancy
is that deliberate use of psychoactive mushrooms by Westerners is a
phenomenon of the last half century. He argues that stories about
ancient and momentous mushroom use can be understood mainly as
attempts to validate a modern practice by giving it deep religious
roots. In reality, he says, now is the magic mushroom moment, not
some vaguely remembered time when a fungus-centered society lived in
harmony with nature because it drew wisdom from a psychoactive sacrament.

It may be true that magic mushrooms have never been more popular, but
they remain a distinctly minority taste. Even in Amsterdam, where
psilocybin mushrooms are available over the counter in "smart shops,"
a 2001 survey found that less than 8 percent of the population had
ever tried them, while only 0.3 percent had used them in the previous
month. The risks this small minority runs, which include bad trips,
accidents and exacerbation of pre-existing psychological problems,
hardly seem to justify the costs of prohibition.

In fact, as Mr. Letcher notes, prohibition tends to increase the
hazards to users by forcing them to rely on the black market,
encouraging potentially deadly amateur mushroom hunting and creating
negative associations that make bad trips more likely. Around the
time Mr. Letcher wrapped up his book, the British government closed a
drug law loophole that had allowed possession and sale of fresh
psilocybin mushrooms, a move he describes as "motivated more by
political concerns than by any sensible assessment of the evidence."

A Labor Party M.P. objected to the hastily imposed ban. "We cannot
make nature illegal," he said. "Magic mushrooms are part of the
natural world. Some might describe them as a gift from God." If that
sentiment sounds naive, how should we describe the attempt to purge
the world of chemicals that produce politically incorrect states of
consciousness, including chemicals contained in mushrooms that
spontaneously pop up on cow patties and rotting wood all over the
world? The mushrooms may not have magical powers, but neither do the
prohibitionists."

That is only part of the story. I have a 14 page paper to submit somewhere concerning the ludible use of these shrooms in culture.

Letcher, seems to have not written much concerning the scene in the PNW and the fact that In the Puget Sound region we had about one dozen authors and experts in these shrooms whose works were omitted from Letcher's book and we also have 18 species of magic in our world here.

He also posted the wrong url to my site in numerous pages throughout his book, which caused me to buy the domain name of index back in May, although I just began putting the new site together about two months ago so that if people did read his book they could visit my site.

I am aware that he did use data fro the original Mushroom John's Shroom World at mushroomjohn.com for his book since I am the only one who has certain original newspaper clippings which are not available in English newspapers and/or articles. But those were insignificant to the book as a whole.

His reporting on R. Gordon Wasson's getting shrooms pills illegally after psilocine and psilocybine were made as a controlled substance, through Albert Hofmann via a phony p.o. box in California could have been left out of the book.

http://forums.mycotopia.net/forum-in...ed-please.html (Dutch Translation is Needed Please)

If you read Dutch then read this article. One of many written.

If you notice the back cover of his book,all the blurbs presented were comments reviewed by several English Newspapers and not by scholars involved in the legitimate study of these mushrooms, so many scholars ignored the newspaper comments praising the book as a whole.

I hope you find this data to be of good and useful in your study of this book and its many untruths and errors and that you can view these thoughts from Jim Irvin and me with an open mind.

I just wrote a 14 page list of items I found incorrect or errors in the historical aspects of contemporary use and I stayed away from the Wasson and Mckenna thrashing by Letcher.

After my paper is published I will post it here at Mycotopia.
have a shroomy day.

mjshroomer

[Mycolangelo]

Shrooms must have inspired religion but sadly eons ago the idea of religion was tailored to control the masses.
All religions have some good tenants. None are the word of God, they are man made. Religion is Santa Clause for adults.

[mjshroomer]

Originally Posted by Mycolangelo

Shrooms must have inspired religion but sadly eons ago the idea of religion was tailored to control the masses.
All religions have some good tenants. None are the word of God, they are man made. Religion is Santa Clause for adults.

And "TV is the opium of Western Civilization."

mjshroomer

[Hippie3]

i wish
TV was as good
as opium...

[Hippie3]

i'd say
mr.letcher was spot-on in his assessments.
but that's just imo .

[mjshroomer]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

i wish
TV was as good
as opium...

Well y0u sure are not alone on that thought,

Hehehe!

mjshroomer

[nabrxx]

An archeologist named Anton, believes that after reaching a point where cognitive developement allowed for the imagination to be able to concieve of the mind "without" the body, early man's next big step was imagining himself as something "else'...a tree for example. I think mushrooms could have helped both of those milestone moments along ....dont you?....Once early man could imagine a bodiless self...the next step would be to imagine that "it" would not die with the body...thereby creating an afterlife. Then priests came along and began to charge for the whole experience and insist we kill other people who dont believe what WE believe....resulting in the wonderful melange of insanity that exists today called RELIGION.

[Hippie3]

what evidence does 'anton' have ?
what's his full name so i can look him up ?

[Titus]

If cultures with advanced technology such as us are falling back to such simple pleasures as mushrooms, i have no doubt that they played a role in the
evolution of all aspects of social life. Not just religion but visual art and tribal design, dance, music, customs...

Do I think it was the main factor in the creation of religion, of coarse not.

[Hippie3]

simple pleasure ?
don't think i'd agree with that assesment.
now beer is a simple pleasure,
you can drink some every night even.
but shrooms ?
not so simple at all.
life-altering
paradigm-shattering
awesome beauty and
intense love, laughter, sensation.
it's the perfect drug for our digital age
as beer was for the middle ages.

[nabrxx]

Hippie...MY bad..The anthropologists name is Altran, Scott Altran. I expressed some of his ideas from the article 'Darwin's God'. In that article you will find he mentions on pg 1, a term call 'folkpsychology' and goes on to explain the cognitive relevence of it. You can take it from there Im sure. It is MY leap of logic to infer that hallucinogens could have played a role in that cognitive developement. Regardless, early humans who could do it( make that cognitive leap) would have definately been given an edge in the survival game and it would have offset the negatives of religion...ie expenditure of time and recources....Thank you for asking sir.

[nabrxx]

PS Hippie, when searching 'Darwins God', Altran did not write it, he is discussed in it. Later. It was a new york times article. easy

[Hippie3]

uh-huh,
so the archaeologist turned into an anthropologist ,
the theory became your own,
and originally came from an article in the Times ?
interesting.
giving even all that a free pass-
i still do not see
how it makes a case
for this claim-

early humans who could do it( make that cognitive leap) would have definately been given an edge in the survival game

[Titus]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

simple pleasure ?
don't think i'd agree with that assesment.

Well if you're gonna nitpick let me rephrase myself, such an ancient pleasure as mushrooms.

[Hippie3]

don't look at it as
nit-picking.
think of it as
adding context by commentary,