The fallacy that synthetic is equal to natural compounds

[learnerdr]

This is just an example clarifying the facts since Ive heard the opposite on this site a few times and thought the truth should be known. Nothing against cool synthetic compounds but God still knows best so when you can, use the real thing. Here are 2 examples: Vitamin C occurs naturally in fruits in 2 ascorbate forms with bioflavonoids. Synthetic type is made by fermenting corn surag into sorbitol and then hydrogenating it until it turns into sorbose. Acetone (nail polish remover) is then added to break the molecular bond, creating isolated, crystalline ascorbic acid. Ascorbic acid does not contain ascorbate or bioflavonoids: thus it is too incomplete to be called Vitamin C. Another example is Vitamin E, which is found in foods as d-alpha tocopherol, but chemical synthesis produces is dl- alpha tocopherol. Natural Vit E has up to 4 times the anti- oxidant capacity of synthetic Vitamin E. In addition, synthetic Vitamin E has less ability to correct vitamin E deficiencies than the real thing. The body also retains Vitamin E in its natural form 2.7 times better than in its synthetic form. To put it simply, natural vitamins can not be invented. I know this may seem obvious to some, but there are others who are still convinced synthetic compounds are just as good as natural. Incidentally, there are many who masquerade as natural which are not, but the point is to at least prefer the real thing- to get the real benefits. THis is why SWIM likes aya tea, bc its the real deal, like cannabis, and other sacred compounds... unlike bad acid, and government sanctioned drugs of choice for idiots to become bigger idiots- nicotine, alcohol, and caffeine.

[Doctor D]

Originally Posted by learnerdr

His is why SWIM likes aya tea, bc its the real deal, like cannabis, and other sacred compounds... unlike bad acid, and government sanctioned drugs of choice for idiots to become bigger idiots- nicotine, alcohol, and caffeine.

How is ayahuasca more natural than coffee beans steeped in hot water? Smoked tobacco is no more synthetic than your cannabis, so I'm unsure what point you were trying to make other than to denigrate people who like different drugs than you do.

[learnerdr]

Coffee bean steeped in hot water makes people work harder, nicotine is a stimulant so keeps people awke to work longer, and alcohol makes us stupid. Dont get me wrong, Ive enjoyed a cig with some coffee and God knows drank more than my share of alcohol, but their governement sanctionedness- thats my point- Id rather not be taking what "they" want me to take. Id rather take what I want to take, even if its harder to come by. Plus cigarrettes especially are a lot more synthetic with deadly carcinogen chemicals that inject nicotine faster into the blood stream than otherwise- this is not just rolled up tobacco anymore bro. I wish it were that innocent.

[Diacetyl-M]

While I like natural drugs for aesthetic reasons, I'd have to disagree that natural is always better. A chemical that is produced in nature can often be sythesized and is in every way identical, except for the fact that in natural sources there are usually more than one substance. I've never heard that about vitamines though, and can't agree or dispute it one way or the other. I do know that I'd be just as happy to take pure sythetic mescaline as I would san pedro Though I would not feel the same reverence for synthetic mescaline as I would peyote.

I have a special respect for the gifts that come from nature, but as I just posted in another thread, I was surprised to find that methamphetamine has been found in a natural source, (the bark of some tree, I forget which species). I can't say I feel reverence for methamphetamine though lol. Even if it can be fun

A lot of this site in fact seems to be devoted to removing a little bit of nature from natural sources lol. Spice, mescaline, LSA extraction, etc. But there are special cases where nature seems to have designed things to be taken "as is", like weed, and pan cyans as I hear, and eagerly await trying

[Diacetyl-M]

Id rather not be taking what "they" want me to take. Id rather take what I want to take

I can't argue with this, the substances that happened to be kept legal are not the least harmful of the bunch lol. If only when drug laws were made, a group of people who actually knew what they were talking about, weighed the merits of each substance.

[LotRev]

You should only ingest what you choose, of course.
And many many people do roll up their own tobacco for cigs.

I disagree pretty much with all of that about the synthetics and naturals.
You cannot compare the vitamin situation to synthetic compounds.
If one were to come up with a Vitamin E that was just like
the natural one, would it still be worthless?

It's fairly biased to name Acetone as nail polish remover, what about all
it's other uses? That's like the truth ads telling you you're smoking rat
poison...well, you're not really, but there may be an ingredient that is used
in rat poison - it's not the same thing.

Ayahuasca is a simple chemical process, which in some sense makes it
unnatural as well.

Alcohol, Nicotine, and caffeine have little to do with government, they
have all been around for FAR longer than our government and they are ALL
natural.

And as far as bad acid goes, I'm sorry you've had those experiences, because
it does suck to eat shitty acid, but all you need to do it find good LSD.
I am positive that you will change your mind about it if you do.
LSD is absolutely beautiful, and very mind expanding. A gift from the gods
themselves.

That's my view anyhow.

[Diacetyl-M]

LSD is absolutely beautiful, and very mind expanding. A gift from the godsthemselves.

I second that.

[plantman21]

HERE HERE

[August West]

Originally Posted by learnerdr

Coffee bean steeped in hot water makes people work harder, nicotine is a stimulant so keeps people awke to work longer, and alcohol makes us stupid.

these substances are benign.
aside from the physiological effects, how one chooses to use them is how they gain their power - so to speak.

as has been stated, regardless of the alleged effects these substances have on a person, i believe your initial point was synthetic vs. natural - therefore, using coffee, nicotine and alcohol doesn't really seem to be the most effective way to get your point across...just sayin.

also, in swims experience, lsd is most certainly touched by the hand of god - or however one relates to that (god) concept.



as an aside, i'm not convinced the proper use of the effect/affect difference was applied by yours truly...but i couldn't seem to reconcile it...just sayin

[lysergic]

Originally Posted by learnerdr

Here are 2 examples: Vitamin C occurs naturally in fruits in 2 ascorbate forms with bioflavonoids. Synthetic type is made by fermenting corn surag into sorbitol and then hydrogenating it until it turns into sorbose. Acetone (nail polish remover) is then added to break the molecular bond, creating isolated, crystalline ascorbic acid. Ascorbic acid does not contain ascorbate or bioflavonoids: thus it is too incomplete to be called Vitamin C.

Can you please cite a source supporting this information?


Wikipedia defines Vitamin C as thus:

Vitamin C or L-ascorbic acid is an essential nutrient for humans, a large number of higher primate species, a small number of other mammalian species (notably guinea pigs and bats), a few species of birds, and some fish.

The article continues to say:

Vitamin C is purely the L-enantiomer of ascorbate; the opposite D-enantiomer has no physiological significance. Both forms are mirror images of the same molecular structure. When L-ascorbate, which is a strong reducing agent, carries out its reducing function, it is converted to its oxidized form, L-dehydroascorbate.[6] L-dehydroascorbate can then be reduced back to the active L-ascorbate form in the body by enzymes and glutathione.[

Vitamin C and Ascorbic Acid are used interchangeably throughout the article.

Vitamin C is just that. Ascorbic Acid.
A single compound.

Originally Posted by August West

these substances are benign.
aside from the physiological effects, how one chooses to use them is how they gain their power - so to speak.

as has been stated, regardless of the alleged effects these substances have on a person, i believe your initial point was synthetic vs. natural - therefore, using coffee, nicotine and alcohol doesn't really seem to be the most effective way to get your point across...just sayin.

also, in swims experience, lsd is most certainly touched by the hand of god - or however one relates to that (god) concept.

I'd rep you for that if it would let me

[jjoj]

While natural sources may be better for nutrition/sustenance, you can't apply the same measuring stick to psychedelic substances. Most natural psources have a range of related alkaloids that can have undesriable side effects. To remove the substances that cause undesirable side effects or to synthesize a pure product without these compounds is common sense. They are not to the detriment of the affect of the drug at all.

[Hippie3]

neither is it logically sound to
reason, based on 2 vitamins,
a generalization applying to all.
that itself is a 'fallacy'.

[Hippie3]

drugs of choice for idiots to become bigger idiots- nicotine, alcohol, and caffeine.

hey, you know what ?
fuck you.

an idiot is someone
who insults others
for no good reason,
like you.

watch yer mouth in the future-
call me an idiot for having a drink again
and i'll show you out the door.

[TVCasualty]

I'm pretty dizzy on some crazy-ass molecules right about now, lemme tell ya!

[lysergic]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

neither is it logically sound to
reason, based on 2 vitamins,
a generalization applying to all.
that itself is a 'fallacy'.

[DocOc]

and how much chemistry have you actually performed or studied learnerder?

[buteo]

where did this come from? lol. i believe whether sumthings man made or not it was still put here on earth by us which belong to it. If its here its here for a reason...idk maybe im an idiot...but i dont insult people for the things they enjoy....

[Frequency]

Originally Posted by Diacetyl-M

While I like natural drugs for aesthetic reasons, I'd have to disagree that natural is always better. A chemical that is produced in nature can often be sythesized and is in every way identical, except for the fact that in natural sources there are usually more than one substance.

Originally Posted by Doctor D

How is ayahuasca more natural than coffee beans steeped in hot water? Smoked tobacco is no more synthetic than your cannabis, so I'm unsure what point you were trying to make other than to denigrate people who like different drugs than you do.

Originally Posted by LotRev

I disagree pretty much with all of that about the synthetics and naturals.
You cannot compare the vitamin situation to synthetic compounds.
If one were to come up with a Vitamin E that was just like
the natural one, would it still be worthless?

Originally Posted by August West

i believe your initial point was synthetic vs. natural - therefore, using coffee, nicotine and alcohol doesn't really seem to be the most effective way to get your point across...

Originally Posted by lysergic

Can you please cite a source supporting this information? Vitamin C and Ascorbic Acid are used interchangeably throughout the article. Vitamin C is just that. Ascorbic Acid. A single compound.

Originally Posted by Hippie3

hey, you know what ?
fuck you.
an idiot is someone
who insults others
for no good reason,
like you.
watch yer mouth in the future-
call me an idiot for having a drink again
and i'll show you out the door.

learnerdr: Your elitist attitude is neither wanted nor warranted and this (above) is what getting your arse handed to you looks like on the Topia. Not to be rude, but grow up.

[LotRev]

And I don't mean any of that harshly, I just really disagree.

I have known many people who are against anything "unnatural" - but honestly,
I feel that can generally be traced back to inexperience.

...or maybe I'm just a crack head for this kind of stuff

Especially the "bad acid" comment though. It truly is a sad thing that LSD has gone
so far down hill as far as the quality of the products going around.

[Azuloso83]

I believe what learnerdr may have been trying to express was his personal disdain for chemical compounds which do not provide a "psychedelic" experience. However, just because a chemical is sanctioned by the government, synthetized by man, and/or not "mind expanding" in a psychedelic sense does not mean that it necessarily "makes idiots bigger idiots". I have said before in this forum that I believe alcohol to be more detrimental mentally, physically, and spiritually to people than many illicit drugs. And I have lost beloved relatives to smoking. However, the bottom line is that these chemicals exist and it is how you choose to utilize them that makes you necessarily "smarter" or "healthier", whatever those might mean to you. For some people, having a few beers with a buddy can slove a disagreement, and when I chewed tobacco nothing was more of a relief when I was stressed out. Since I enjoy stimulants, I have substituted caffiene for drugs which, for me personally, were more destructive, such as cocaine. I understand what you intended to express, but it is not for you to cast judgement on what others put into their bodies, no more than the government should be allowed to do that. Recently, there was a thread floating around about Datura. And though the chemicals in this plant were overwhelmingly condemned as dangerous and destructive, at the same time I believe that if you want to use it responsibly and safely without endangering others thatn that is your right. I might think to myself "That's not a smart move," but I wouldn't criticize you. If you were intent on using it, I would do what I could to educate and help you. Perhaps if you truly feel that alcohol, nicotine, and caffiene are haveing a deleterious effect on people, you should try to research and educate to that end instead of making broad criticisms.

[learnerdr]

Oh thankyou everyone for straightening me out. I guess synthetic drugs are better than natural ones, based on the anger generated by implying different. My bad.

[Hippie3]

the anger was generated
by you calling people
idiots.
you understand that yet ???

[The Truth.]

I think you got off on the wrong foot.
Coming to a site of experienced "users" with a loaded opinionated statement as you did
was a bad idea. Maybe next time propose an idea or generalize a statement your pondering. You'll go a lot further around here by keeping an open mind and not
being too stubborn to listen or learn. Your view doesn't make it written in stone and sometimes our opinions are crap. After all you did post for feedback, correct?
If I were you, I'd suck it up, apologize and try to stick around and actually learn something.

just my 2 cents
(cuz I'd hate to see you go, but you can't stay with that attitude)

[lysergic]

Originally Posted by learnerdr

Oh thankyou everyone for straightening me out. I guess synthetic drugs are better than natural ones, based on the anger generated by implying different. My bad.

Does this mean you aren't going to cite a source for your information?

[fortezozo]

Originally Posted by lysergic

Does this mean you aren't going to cite a source for your information?

When people started synthetically making molecules (such as vitamin c) they had no idea about the quantum mechanics behind the reaction.

What is created is exactly the same molecule as found in nature but of two different polarizations (both left and right polarization have the same probability at that energy level). When the molecule is created in nature, only the right polarization is created.

As a result, only the right polarization is recognized by the body. Artificially created molecules are therefore only half as effective when consumed (since only half of what is created is of the proper polarization).

Additionally, people are now studying the effects of left polarized molecules on the body (some are finding it to be harmful).

Does this mean that all synthetic molecules are bad? Hell no. All it means is that the more we try to mimic nature, the more we find is to it.

We will eventually be able to make exactly the same molecule. It is merely out of reach at this moment in time.

If this is inadequate (some generalizations in there), just search the internet for "polarization of synthetic vitamins." Stick to the scientific journals unless you have a taste for liberal propaganda.

[lysergic]

Originally Posted by fortezozo

What is created is exactly the same molecule as found in nature but of two different polarizations (both left and right polarization have the same probability at that energy level). When the molecule is created in nature, only the right polarization is created.

As a result, only the right polarization is recognized by the body. Artificially created molecules are therefore only half as effective when consumed (since only half of what is created is of the proper polarization).

Did you bother to read my prior post?

From wikipedia:

Vitamin C is purely the L-enantiomer of ascorbate; the opposite D-enantiomer has no physiological significance. Both forms are mirror images of the same molecular structure. When L-ascorbate, which is a strong reducing agent, carries out its reducing function, it is converted to its oxidized form, L-dehydroascorbate.[6] L-dehydroascorbate can then be reduced back to the active L-ascorbate form in the body by enzymes and glutathione.

I fail to see how synthetic Vitamin C is only half as effective if it consists of ONLY the effective " L-enantiomer of ascorbate."

Synthetic compounds with multiple isomers can definitely be separated.

Take Dextroamphetamine for example:

Dextroamphetamine is the dextrorotary or "Right-handed" stereoisomer of the amphetamine molecule

And in contrast Adderall, which is a racemic mixture:

Specifically, Adderall XR is composed of the following proportions of active ingredients[1]:

* 1/4 dextroamphetamine saccharate
* 1/4 dextroamphetamine sulfate
* 1/4 (racemic dextro/levo-amphetamine) aspartate monohydrate
* 1/4 (racemic dextro/levo-amphetamine) sulfate

Originally Posted by fortezozo

If this is inadequate (some generalizations in there), just search the internet for "polarization of synthetic vitamins." Stick to the scientific journals unless you have a taste for liberal propaganda.

I've provided sources supporting my information...

It's your job to provide your own sources.

[Frequency]

Originally Posted by lysergic

I fail to see how synthetic Vitamin C is only half as effective if it consists of ONLY the effective " L-enantiomer of ascorbate."

Synthetic compounds with multiple isomers can definitely be separated.

Take Dextroamphetamine for example. And in contrast Adderall, which is a racemic mixture.

And the pwnage continues!! I think we all owe Hip and Lys tuition now, cuz those guys were completely schooled!

[learnerdr]

Well, now that Ive got all of your attention, let me just take this opportunity to say Hi . Now, according to Eckart Tolle, we need to all practice a little more nonjudgement, nonresistance, and nonattatchment. Then we can finally evolve beyond the egoic mind- endlessly wanting and fearing. Just kidding about all that caffeine, alcohol, and nicotine making idiots even bigger idiots- stuff- damn, defensive much? But I understand people's need to attatch to things, to judge, and to resist what is. God knows Ive had more than my share of all of those 3- I just wish I wouldnt.. Wish we all wouldnt. Just saying it'd be nice to trade those 3 in for 3 better choices, which would probably be less lethal, less trouble, more fun, and more helpful- Geez.

[lysergic]

Originally Posted by lysergic

Does this mean you aren't going to cite a source for your information?

I'll take that as a no...



And for the record,
Alcohol is a naturally occurring substance as well

[The Truth.]

Originally Posted by learnerdr

Well, now that Ive got all of your attention, let me just take this opportunity to say Hi . Now, according to Eckart Tolle, we need to all practice a little more nonjudgement, nonresistance, and nonattatchment. Then we can finally evolve beyond the egoic mind- endlessly wanting and fearing. Just kidding about all that caffeine, alcohol, and nicotine making idiots even bigger idiots- stuff- damn, defensive much? But I understand people's need to attatch to things, to judge, and to resist what is. God knows Ive had more than my share of all of those 3- I just wish I wouldnt.. Wish we all wouldnt. Just saying it'd be nice to trade those 3 in for 3 better choices, which would probably be less lethal, less trouble, more fun, and more helpful- Geez.

Just breath easy. Be cool
No one wants to see you leave (or get booted)
But you're dealing with thousands of people with different views and experience than you. Respect that, you'll find some in return.
You'll be better off listening round here and embracing the eclectic views of others
before attempting to push your ideals.
Look around and see what makes this place so special. We talk, we share, and of course learn.

I agree with this. A little will power goes a long way. Of course old habits die hard.
I agree we have been influenced to use these for so long. But we still have a choice.
Funny thing is, now some of these are strongly advised against. By who?
None other than our good old gov. But what do they really want for us besides complete control?

Originally Posted by learnerdr

Wish we all wouldnt. Just saying it'd be nice to trade those 3 in for 3 better choices, which would probably be less lethal, less trouble, more fun, and more helpful- Geez.

cheers

[firerat]

Originally Posted by learnerdr

Just kidding about all that caffeine, alcohol, and nicotine making idiots even bigger idiots- stuff- damn, defensive much?

Well try being a little more tactful guy, and people won't be so defensive.

Coming in 26 posts later and say "just kidding guys" doesn't make it better. Don't act like them being defensive isn't justified when it was a case of you being an ass-just kidding geez. Come on guy.

Originally Posted by learnerdr

But I understand people's need to attatch to things, to judge, and to resist what is. God knows Ive had more than my share of all of those 3- I just wish I wouldnt.. Wish we all wouldnt.

So are you saying you were judged because you were disagreed with and maybe some took offense to your tone? Awwww

[Frequency]

Originally Posted by learnerdr

Well, now that Ive got all of your attention, let me just take this opportunity to say Hi . Now, according to Eckart Tolle, we need to all practice a little more nonjudgement, nonresistance, and nonattatchment. Then we can finally evolve beyond the egoic mind- endlessly wanting and fearing. Just kidding about all that caffeine, alcohol, and nicotine making idiots even bigger idiots- stuff- damn, defensive much? But I understand people's need to attatch to things, to judge, and to resist what is. God knows Ive had more than my share of all of those 3- I just wish I wouldnt.. Wish we all wouldnt. Just saying it'd be nice to trade those 3 in for 3 better choices, which would probably be less lethal, less trouble, more fun, and more helpful- Geez.

That was the least sincere apology I've ever read. It doesn't surprise me that you'd invoke a profiteering snake-oil salesman like Tolle. In the words of Jody Radzik...

...another disappointing glamorization of self-realization by a guru bent on building his business. What little understanding of self-realization he can offer to others is not augmented by the "presence" fantasy, it is thwarted by it. It seems to indicate a basic maxim of the guru business: make it all about the power of your presence, and they will come. Make it all about the actual truth, that self-realization is ultimately normalizing rather than some kind of magic gift bag from God, and you're just another fool with a webpage.

And you learnerdr need to detach yourself from a bit of your own fantasy.

[August West]

Originally Posted by lysergic

Did you bother to read my prior post?

From wikipedia:


I fail to see how synthetic Vitamin C is only half as effective if it consists of ONLY the effective " L-enantiomer of ascorbate."

Synthetic compounds with multiple isomers can definitely be separated.

Take Dextroamphetamine for example:


And in contrast Adderall, which is a racemic mixture:





I've provided sources supporting my information...

It's your job to provide your own sources.

Originally Posted by learnerdr

Well, now that Ive got all of your attention, let me just take this opportunity to say Hi . Now, according to Eckart Tolle, we need to all practice a little more nonjudgement, nonresistance, and nonattatchment. Then we can finally evolve beyond the egoic mind- endlessly wanting and fearing. Just kidding about all that caffeine, alcohol, and nicotine making idiots even bigger idiots- stuff- damn, defensive much? But I understand people's need to attatch to things, to judge, and to resist what is. God knows Ive had more than my share of all of those 3- I just wish I wouldnt.. Wish we all wouldnt. Just saying it'd be nice to trade those 3 in for 3 better choices, which would probably be less lethal, less trouble, more fun, and more helpful- Geez.

please keep me out of you condescending attempt at making nice. i didn't use judgement, resistance or attachment in my response to your flawed point-of-view. and i personally don't buy that you were kidding, especially since you restated you initial opinion at the end of the above quote.

unless you actually bring some insight into the conversation about the detrimental affects of the substances in question, i suggest re-reading the responses to your thread. they are informed and generally grounded in something more than subjectivity.

and yea, i do get defensive when someone patronizes me

[Diacetyl-M]

Hey man, honestly, I think you could have phrased things in a more tactful way to get your point across, but I also understand how easy it is to miss people's meaning when communicating on the internet. Without all the body cue's, tone of voice, etc. it can be very easy to misinterpret someone's message... emotes help but, it doesn't compare to direct face to face communication. The way you said things was easy to interpret as close minded and insulting. However, I can just as easily, after re-reading your first post interpret your message as this:

"Man I really am amazed that nature come's up with such great substances! I feel a true appreciation for natural drugs Man it frustrates me how hippocritical the government is! On one hand they outlaw wonderful mind expanding drugs that cause no physical or emotional damage... on the other hand they legalize and collect taxes from ciggs, which kill so many people. I hate how they try to tell us what we can and can't put in our bodies. Oh golly. Golly gosh."

Perhaps not spoken with eloquence, but this is a very common sentiment. I can't count the number of people I've met who will only take natural drugs. To each their own I say. Now if you acctually claime that all substances produced by nature are of superior quality, then I would argue that you are simply talking about racemic mixtures, stereoisomers, etc. perhaps in the past we didn't have the technology to sythesize specific isomers... but we do now for the majority of substances that use. I would also argue, that humans create substances that are superior to natural substances just as often. Compare getting high ergot (St. Anthony's Fire if I remeber right) vs. good clean LSD lol. I'd say we've improved things a little.

But all that aside, I say welcome! Even though I'm probably newer than you. And just remeber how much gets lost in the translation from concepts/insights/thoughts....to language, and then to text. I find I have to be extra careful to make sure I'm typing what I want people to interpret. And sorry if you felt like you got jumped on, the people here are really cool and accepting in general I've found

Oh yeah and lys, the dextromethorphan being a stereoisomer of what? levomethorphan? How could an opioid be made out of it. I don't think it can be done but it'd be awsome if it could. Your comment also made me think of ICE vs. meth made with ephedrine/red phosphorus/iodine ... wasn't most of the meth in the 60-70's racemic and only half as potent?

[Frequency]

Originally Posted by Diacetyl-M

Oh yeah and lys, the dextromethorphan being a stereoisomer of what? levomethorphan? How could an opioid be made out of it. I don't think it can be done but it'd be awsome if it could. Your comment also made me think of ICE vs. meth made with ephedrine/red phosphorus/iodine ... wasn't most of the meth in the 60-70's racemic and only half as potent?

Not dextromethorphan, he said dextroamphetamine. You're right about the Ice vs Crank, it's a difference in isolation of isomers which affects the quality and effectiveness of the drug.

[Diacetyl-M]

Oh lol, didn't read it properly....well there's another example of two stereoisomers being quite different indeed....one a full opiod agonist, the other some shit ass cough syrup lol

dextromethorphan vs. levomethorphan

[Frequency]

Originally Posted by Diacetyl-M

Oh lol, didn't read it properly....well there's another example of two stereoisomers being quite different indeed....one a full opiod agonist, the other some shit ass cough syrup lol

dextromethorphan vs. levomethorphan

Very nice comparison indeed! It's completely fascinating how the simple rearrangement of the same molecule can vary it's effects so significantly. The d-meth/l-meth bit you mentioned earlier is also very pertinent.

[ishkaboo]

Originally Posted by Diacetyl-M

Oh lol, didn't read it properly....well there's another example of two stereoisomers being quite different indeed....one a full opiod agonist, the other some shit ass cough syrup lol

dextromethorphan vs. levomethorphan

More like NMDA antagonist or in other words dissociative anesthetic. It really is amazing that a full opiate agonist was transformed into a heavy dissociative indeed, and a legal one at that.

I personally can't believe they still market DXM with all of the teen abuse associated with it [especially when CPM is involved (CCC's)]

[Diacetyl-M]

But the differences with the d vs. l amphetamine is like a drug that makes you feel good and the other just doesnt do much correct? Or am I off base? Case with the dextromethorphan and levomethorphan we've got a full opioid agonist vs. an NMDA antagonist and dissosiative anesthetic which is quite powerful, but in completely different ways

Ah I seem to have posted slow as this was already addressed.... but you see my point yes? Shouldn't there be a way of converting 1 sereoisomer into another? or would it be VERY hard? If it coulf be done it'd be like unlimmited access to powerful opioids.... that may appeal to some lol

Very nice comparison indeed! It's completely fascinating how the simple rearrangement(mirror image) of the same molecule can vary it's effects so significantly.

So is ther way to convert L and I amphetamines? to eachother? Can levo amphetamine do anything? Can it get changed to dextro?

Edit::: SORRY I'm trying to post after a small hit of spice so I'm i'm i'm i'm gonna wait to beable to thinbk again sorry lol.

[Hippie3]

Originally Posted by learnerdr

Well, now that Ive got all of your attention, let me just take this opportunity to say Hi . Now, according to Eckart Tolle, we need to all practice a little more nonjudgement, nonresistance, and nonattatchment. Then we can finally evolve beyond the egoic mind- endlessly wanting and fearing. Just kidding about all that caffeine, alcohol, and nicotine making idiots even bigger idiots- stuff- damn, defensive much? But I understand people's need to attatch to things, to judge, and to resist what is. God knows Ive had more than my share of all of those 3- I just wish I wouldnt.. Wish we all wouldnt. Just saying it'd be nice to trade those 3 in for 3 better choices, which would probably be less lethal, less trouble, more fun, and more helpful- Geez.

you are a fucking liar-
you were not kidding,
not one bit.
you only say that now.
a back-handed 'apology'
in which you make a few
more hostile remarks about
what's wrong with everyone
but you.
my bet is that
i'll soon be banning your sorry egotistical ass,
and then you can be so superior
elsewhere.
mark my words well,
there won't be any follow up.

[Frequency]

Originally Posted by ishkaboo

More like NMDA antagonist or in other words dissociative anesthetic. It really is amazing that a full opiate agonist was transformed into a heavy dissociative indeed, and a legal one at that.

I personally can't believe they still market DXM with all of the teen abuse associated with it [especially when CPM is involved (CCC's)]

That's a great point as well. DXM has such a wild dosage/response curve, and it differs completely in effect from LXM.

I guess it just depends on which isomer of octahydroisoquinoline you start with!

Originally Posted by Diacetyl-M

Shouldn't there be a way of converting 1 sereoisomer into another? or would it be VERY hard? If it coulf be done it'd be like unlimmited access to powerful opioids.... that may appeal to some lol

Nope, been down that road many times. Wish you could but with DXM/LXM it's not possible. You have to start with the right isomer of the precursor to get there.

[The Truth.]

Originally Posted by Frequency

That's a great point as well. DXM has such a wild dosage/response curve, and it differs completely in effect from LXM.

I guess it just depends on which isomer of octahydroisoquinoline you start with!



Nope, been down that road many times. Wish you could but with DXM/LXM it's not possible. You have to start with the right isomer of the precursor to get there.

You're a code demon.

[Diacetyl-M]

WoW truth and frequency know their shit.... you guys rock...how about this then. Take l amphetamine....does it give any high at all?

[Hippie3]

enough.