9/11 was it terrorists?

[AfraidofAmerica]

Popular Mechanics article on Debunking 9/11 Myths

Good article. Uses real evidence, not just the claims of a few people out of thousands. Addresses every issue mentioned in this thread and more.

Peace
-AoA

[maidenofiron]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

there is NO evidence to support these wild conjectures-
where is the explosives residue that should have been in the WTC wreckage if it was demolished deliberately ?

The problem is they cleaned up the wreckage at extremly fast rates w/ out even keeping evidence! they disposed of it before a proper investigation could take place. seems odd for the worlds biggest crime in recent history.

Originally Posted by Hippie3

where are the 'missile' fragments at the pentagon ?

Well where is the plane fragments? if they cant find evidence of a huge commercial jet airliner then obviously they lied. does it even matter what else it could have been then?

Originally Posted by Hippie3

where are the people who made all those 'fake' phone calls, planted explosives, fired missiles at their own people ?

maybe if the current administration didnt hault the investigation we would know these things!

Originally Posted by Hippie3

explain the plane on the ground in pennsylvannia,
that obviously is not 'fake'.

did anyone say it was fake?

Originally Posted by Hippie3

all i see here
is a feverish DESIRE to believe bad things about a hated man,
it's just blind faith married to blind hate,
might as well claim that bush boils down dead babies to make candles
some fool will believe it,
repeat it to his buddies
and you'll have some new crap to post

do you really think GWB is capable of planning something like this? do you think he even writes his own speeches? NO and NO. whatever happened that day needed to be planned by many high ranking people. Do you really think all these "conspiracy theorist" are making movies and books because they just hate GWBs guts? this isnt an issue of "lets try to make everyone hate Bush". If you would actually read these "conspiracies" yould know that they are not direct attacks on bush. While bush was obviously involved, yes he makes a great scapegoat. He is the symbol and lightning rod of the current administration.
This was one of the greatest disasters to take place on American soil in a very long time, and if those in power dont like the idea of an investigation to take place well then something is seriously wrong!

[Venice]

the real enemy are those who planned and administered the attack...same as in all of the others and the prior Towers attack...Muslim Fascists. The free nations of the world will get it right for the good of all, just as they did in WWII against the Nazi's.

simple as that...fight or die and people with balls are fighting.

[maidenofiron]

Venice- are you really that affraid of these people? do you really think they are capable of destroying the "free world"? look the fact is they have a budget so small compared to us it is a shame that "they" successfully attacked us. And it wasnt even a surprise! they had plenty of info pointing to the exact week. If these guys were such a huge threat to us then why the f*ck did the CIA fund and train them in the 80s???? al-qeada and saddam hussein are both hugely exagerated threats, used to instill fear and justify war. If this goes against what mainstream media and the government has been telling you constantly for the past 4 years then obviously you will think this is horse poo. But that is what propaganda will do to you. take Nazi germany for instance. Would you say that the citizens of germany are evil people for thinking Jews are the root of their problems? or that they were simply told that over and over by very influential people and they accepted it as truth? They were givin an enemy, and united* under the common goal of destroying that enemy and thus their problems. (* not everyone agreed to the policies of hitler but when you can be shot or jailed for disagreeing, then your not gonna get the kind of protests you see in America) This same type of propaganda is being dished out here in America, with the new enemy being "terrorists". some other false enemies propped up by propaganda include marijuana (and all other non-commercialized drugs), communism, homosexuals, african-americans and native-americans (back in the day).

And furthermore what makes their "terrorism" any different from our "terrorism"? is it because we dont call our foreign policies terrorism that you think its ok? do yourself a favor and look it up in the dictionary.

[Venice]

If one accepts the theory that we are terrorists as well, which of course most know is absurd, then it just comes down to who is most likely to detonate a nuclear bomb in New York city, Al Qaeda or the U.S. government...

gee, I guess I'll stick with the U.S. "terrorists" on this one unless of course you think I gov are the perps that blew up the towers, too?

They are going to kill many Americans and it has nothing to do with how many there are. Today, it doesn't take that many my friend.

[maidenofiron]

Originally Posted by Venice

If one accepts the theory that we are terrorists as well, which of course most know is absurd, then it just comes down to who is most likely to detonate a nuclear bomb in New York city, Al Qaeda or the U.S. government...

ter·ror·ism
The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

where in this definition does it say you are only a terrorist if you attack america? detonating a nuclear bomb in new york city has nothing to do with it. please gain some knowledge of the history of american foreign policiy before you make any rediculess comments.

[Venice]

you guys are all the same...you have to insult people to make yourselves feel full size. I'm sorry for you friend, you are one confused human.

[Venice]

it really is all about penis size for you isn't it? did this problem start in the showers at school as a boy? they have implants now...

Originally Posted by maidenofiron

ter·ror·ism
The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

where in this definition does it say you are only a terrorist if you attack america? detonating a nuclear bomb in new york city has nothing to do with it. please gain some knowledge of the history of american foreign policiy before you make any rediculess comments.

[Venice]

oops..."maidenofiron"..have I insulted a "lady"? whatever you are you need some help or move to Paris where there's others just like ya...

[Ttiger]

I dont have their names, but they are in the video i posted a link to.

[maidenofiron]

Originally Posted by Venice

it really is all about penis size for you isn't it? did this problem start in the showers at school as a boy? they have implants now...

LOL how does penis size have anything to do with this?!?! and im sorry if you think my comments were meant to insult you. To bring up penis size in this political debate only shows your lack of a valid response and weakens your case.

[Forager]

Gotta side with the 'conspiracy theorists' on this one. So far they are presenting the most plausible case. Simple precautionary reasoning. The defenders of the mainstream ideology seem to be more emotionally charged. The facts about 9/11 remain questionable. The explanation of who is to blame remains doubtful, especially in light of the other fabrications used by the current administration to justify the war in Iraq (i.e. WMD). Regardless of the justification, I have no doubt the intent of the war (and perhaps 9/11?) was to secure greater wealth and security for the nation, and perhaps averted a worse situation for the U.S. Be careful of judging the 'freedom' of other nations. That the people of the U.S. are so 'free' is not necessarily the perception across the planet.

[Venice]

I'm just so wore out on the topic. The penis envy is a joke...not a very good one though. So many people here in the U.S. are sooo incredibly ungrateful for all we have and all of the sacrifice that's been made to get where we are today. Not perfect but pretty damn good, if you asked me.

Merry Christmas!...oops, I hope that didn't offend anybody...

Originally Posted by maidenofiron

LOL how does penis size have anything to do with this?!?! and im sorry if you think my comments were meant to insult you. To bring up penis size in this political debate only shows your lack of a valid response and weakens your case.

[doodaa man]

Just to add my little two cents !
I'm an iron worker. I climb/connect/weld steel structures.
The wtc structures were the first structure of it's kind.
Open floor plans. No inner colums except for the elevator and stair towers. They were in the center. Each floor was supported by what is called steel flat truss connected at the ends to the outer supporting walls and inner steel frame work for the evevator tower. This allowed for expancive open space unherd of at the time. The clips that attached the horazontal trusses to the steel colums were undersized.
SOOOOO. the heat from the fire twisted the light wight trusses,
Putting stress on the bolts and welds holding the truss in place. The clips also heated and under extream stress shear at the colum. All the weight from above comes down and floor after floor cave in. The outer steel walls take most of the down ward weight in these structures. They fell inside of its self.Concreat pulverized under such stress. The so called puffs and explosions were actually the air prussure from the above floors pushing air down the air tight building . These are facts. I seen intreviews of the archatect. I seen the colums in the scrap heap.With sheard clips.
I was working acrossed the river on a building when the first plane hit ! It was not a good sight. Yea our government is screwed up and it has done some F'ed up stuff But they did not do this ! Actually it's the laws of physics. Also did we drive that van into the parking garage That cold morning ten years earlier?
The only conspiracy there was that we did not act on what we knew about these people before 911. I guess we also blew up our own ship, our own bases and embassy. My nephew is not shooting and getting shot at ghost of there in afganistan !

[~Hippie3]

if they cant find evidence of a huge commercial jet airliner then obviously they lied.

wrong.
absence of proof
is not
proof of absence-
very basic rule of logic.
NOT finding something
does not prove it doesn't exist
in any way.
your argument is faulty.
there is no evidence of a missile at all.
and it matters because that IS your claim.

[~Hippie3]

If these guys were such a huge threat to us then why the f*ck did the CIA fund and train them in the 80s?

lol
yet another ridiculous pseudo-question.
the answer is obvious-
no one knew, in 1980s,
what would happen 20 years later.
duh.

[~Hippie3]

Would you say that the citizens of germany are evil people for thinking Jews are the root of their problems? or that they were simply told that over and over by very influential people and they accepted it as truth?

if you knew anything about history
you'd know the roots of anti-Semitism in eurasia
predated hitler's regime by centuries.
the german people needed no brain-washing to convince them
that the jews were their enemies,
they had been taught so from birth,
by parents and grandparents,
not by hitler.

[~Hippie3]

The problem is they cleaned up the wreckage at extremly fast rates w/ out even keeping evidence!

simply untrue.
plenty of forensic 'evidence' was collected at the pentagon.
much of it remains, unfortunately, classified.
however here you can find a list/transcript of numerous
eyewitnesses to the pentagon attack,
all stating they saw a plane, not a missile.

http://www.geocities.com/someguyyoud.../witnesses.htm

[AfraidofAmerica]

Evidence That A Boeing 757 Really Did Impact the Pentagon on 9/11

Peace
-AoA

[Lazlo]

There's the final nail in the coffin of this silly theory...lol

[~Hippie3]

don't bet on it,
these folks aren't interested in scientific evidence,
esp. evidence that undermines a cherished belief.
it's like i already stated-
they have FAITH in their position,
it does not rest upon evidence and reason
but upon an intense dislike for the government
and in particular the current administration.
one cannot reason with true believers.

[maidenofiron]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

wrong.
absence of proof
is not
prppf of absence-
very basic rule of logic.
NOT finding something
does not prove it doesn't exist in any way.
your argument is faulty.
there is no evidence of a missile at all.
and it matters because that IS your claim.

proof of absence is very hard to pull off if not imposible in cases such as these. therefor absence of proof is anyones best bet. if i had to choose between 2 options, a missle or 757 commercial jet airliner, by looking at all the evidence givin by both sides I would easily choose a missle. for one a missle is small enough to destroy itself upon impact thus having absence of proof that it exists. A 757 jet on the other hand, well look at the evidence we are left with. a scap peice that could be the outer wall, a wheel looking thing, and another peice that could be from the engine??? Realisticly here planes dont dissapear when they hit buildings. where are the wings, other wheels, tail end, seats, cargo, human bodies, engines, etc etc etc!!! And if you can claim that they decintigrated upon impact then why was that which was found not decintigrated? It also seems to me there was not sufficient damage to the pentagon itself to claim the COMPLETE destruction of a whole plane. also I originally never claimed it was a missle, I just dont believe there is enough evidence to claim it was a plane.

[maidenofiron]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

if you knew anything about history
you'd know the roots of anti-Semitism in eurasia
predated hitler's regime by centuries.
the german people needed no brain-washing to convince them
that the jews were their enemies,
they had been taught so from birth,
by parents and grandparents,
not by hitler.

I can agree anti-semitism predated hitlers regime, but any historian knows that Hitler used massive amounts of propaganda to convince germans that it was a relevant problem. Jews did live in germany pre-hitler regime. many of them rich, important and unharmed untill hitler gained significant power and kicked them out of the country or had them killed.

[~Hippie3]

Originally Posted by AfraidofAmerica

Popular Mechanics article on Debunking 9/11 Myths

Good article. Uses real evidence, not just the claims of a few people out of thousands. Addresses every issue mentioned in this thread and more.

Peace
-AoA

good link, too

[~Hippie3]

Originally Posted by maidenofiron

proof of absence is very hard to pull off if not imposible in cases such as these. therefor absence of proof is anyones best bet. if i had to choose between 2 options, a missle or 757 commercial jet airliner, by looking at all the evidence givin by both sides I would easily choose a missle. for one a missle is small enough to destroy itself upon impact thus having absence of proof that it exists. A 757 jet on the other hand, well look at the evidence we are left with. a scap peice that could be the outer wall, a wheel looking thing, and another peice that could be from the engine??? Realisticly here planes dont dissapear when they hit buildings. where are the wings, other wheels, tail end, seats, cargo, human bodies, engines, etc etc etc!!! And if you can claim that they decintigrated upon impact then why was that which was found not decintigrated? It also seems to me there was not sufficient damage to the pentagon itself to claim the COMPLETE destruction of a whole plane. also I originally never claimed it was a missle, I just dont believe there is enough evidence to claim it was a plane.

see what i mean ?
here's a guy that,
despite seeing photos of landing gear and jet engines, etc.
and despite the total lack of evidence of any missile parts
and despite testimony from numerous eyewitnesses
openly admits
he'd rather still believe his conspiracy theory.

[~Hippie3]

a missle is small enough to destroy itself upon impact thus having absence of proof that it exists.

got any evidence of your claim ?
from what i've seen over the years
even small missiles leave bits and pieces behind,
often enabling palestinians to prove the israelis hit them, etc.

[~Hippie3]

planes dont dissapear when they hit buildings.

and neither did that plane, we can all plainly see wreckage in the photos linked above.
but tell me, please, how many other cases that you know of
are there of loaded jumbo jetliners hitting buildings ?
you seem to think you know what happens when they do
but i don't seem to recall any other examples pre-9/11
so how could you know what should or should not be there ?

[~Hippie3]

Originally Posted by maidenofiron

I can agree anti-semitism predated hitlers regime, but any historian knows that Hitler used massive amounts of propaganda to convince germans that it was a relevant problem. Jews did live in germany pre-hitler regime. many of them rich, important and unharmed untill hitler gained significant power and kicked them out of the country or had them killed.

hitler's words fell upon receptive ears,
and hitler was not the only voice in germany
vilifying the jews.
the jews had been 2nd class citizens at best,
forced to live in crowded ghettos,
restricted from honorable professions,
and persecuted openly for centuries,
and not just in germany
but all across christendom.
it's simple-mindedness to pin all the blame on hitler,
the german people must bear their own share of the blame
as they willingly followed hitler, fully knowing his intentions.

[maidenofiron]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

see what i mean ?
here's a guy that,
despite seeing photos of landing gear and jet engines, etc.
and despite the total lack of evidence of any missile parts
and despite testimony from numerous eyewitnesses
openly admits
he'd rather still believe his conspiracy theory.

no no i simply said they could be from a plane because that is your argument. landing gear is the description YOU gave it, not me. just because that is what the government tells you and you believe them does not make it true. please look at the pic of the wheel again and tell me that is landing gear!?
Im simply arguing the other side of the story, it is not my conspiracy, neither do I believe "it". It is fun doing debates until someone twists the others words around. like that jerk Bill O'Reilly.

[pskovinsky]

That, is an excellant link.

That sure as hell looks like a rim to me.

I'd still like to know what happened to the bodies, but there is evidence for a plane, and no evidence for a missile.
Good evidence, even, the picture of a chunk of shock off the front landing gear looks highly strutish, and like nothing you would find in a building.
This is a classic case of the conspiracy types searching for the few pictures that (sort of) support their claims.

One of the MAIN claims of the conspiracy types was the lack of damaged lightpoles.
Oh, whoops, so much for that.
Ditto for the generator.

[~Hippie3]

Originally Posted by maidenofiron

Im simply arguing the other side of the story, it is not my conspiracy, neither do I believe "it". It is fun doing debates until someone twists the others words around. like that jerk Bill O'Reilly.

you twist your own words plenty

if i had to choose between 2 options, a missle or 757 commercial jet airliner, by looking at all the evidence givin by both sides I would easily choose a missle.

look at the evidence we are left with. a scap peice that could be the outer wall, a wheel looking thing, and another peice that could be from the engine

none of those parts could possibly have come from a missile
so explain their presence at the pentagon ?
ah, but you won't,
just as you've dodged every solid point so far,
preferring insults like the o'reilly remark
when pressed hard on the real evidence.
what a joke.
i did not say that you called the items wheels and engines,
i called them that.
neither did i say that you invented the conspiracy theory
so who is twisting who's words here ?

face it, man-
you have been beaten fair and square-
there is NO evidence on your side
versus great evidence to the contrary-
and that is why
you aren't having fun any more.
it is more and more obvious
that what i said was true-
you don't really want to see evidence, facts
because your mind is already made-up.
i suggest you go find some more folks
of low IQ and try persuading them,
i'm sure that would be more fun
than coming here and facing
intelligent well-informed criticism.

[maidenofiron]

Who said those items are only there because of the plane crash? Remember this part of the pentagon was being renovated. and we all know the record of truth telling in this administration. To plant "evidence" is not below them.
Hippie, how can you deny the presence of propaganda in this country? Do you honestly think people make up their own minds on these issues because they are givin a clear view of these situations? Of coarse not! not only are people constantly told what to believe, they are told if they don't believe it then they are unpatriotic.

[suckerfree]

i don't understand this at all.... you see the VIDEO of a PLANE smacking into the TOWER.... YOU SEE IT.... doesn't look like a missle.... looks like a passenger jet.... because that's what it is.... and the AIRLINES KNOW their planes got jacked.... so if you see TWO planes in a tower.... why do you think it was a MISSLE that hit the pentagon?

this is almost like bickering if Elvis is alive...

[Lazlo]

And even worse! There's prolly some poor family or friend of a person that was killed on the Pentagon flight that heard this story and now is loosing sleep every night hoping that there's slim chance that their friend or family member is still alive somewhere. It's terrible speculation and drama like this that causes a non-closer type of situation with some of the gullible ones that did in FACT loose loved ones. Flat out dumb and inconsiderate IMO. Just leave it be so people can move on with their lives and losts...

[Venice]

Lazlo...you hit one of the largest nails on the head...some just don't give a thought to such concerns claiming concern for "the greater good for all" by exposing the supposed liars...

bunch of garbage

[~Hippie3]

Originally Posted by maidenofiron

Do you honestly think people make up their own minds on these issues because they are givin a clear view of these situations? Of coarse not! not only are people constantly told what to believe, they are told if they don't believe it then they are unpatriotic.

lol
another classic tactic,
you escape the trap of facts
by claiming all your opposition is
brain-washed.

do you really think everyone is that stupid ?
but you aren't.

sure, there are people who only know what
they have been told.
but for the most part
such people don't really care much about current events
and so don't bother to inform themselves.
but do not make the mistake
of thinking everyone is that way-
not by a long shot.
plenty of highly intelligent and well informed people
who make up their own minds
and yet still believe the airplane explanation .

you are dead wrong.
you have nothing on your side of the argument
but a feverish desire to believe that
your government is 'bad'
but being a skeptic or a critic is one thing,
talking nonsense about some far-fetched improbability
is quite another matter.

i'm open to well founded theories that explain the available evidence
but i won't ignore the evidence
just to hold on to a belief
that has no foundation in reality,
as you have done.

you can do your 'cause' better
if you abandon all that nonsense
and focus your criticism on real events,
not some wacky conspiracy theory
already discredited.


btw
if the bush admin is planting evidence
then why didn't they 'find' some WMD in iraq ?
surely that would have been very easily done,
yet it wasn't.
bush takes a lot of heat because no weapons were found
but you think he had a few plane parts planted at the pentagon
and neglected to do the same on a much bigger issue ?

[OZ]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

where are the 'missile' fragments at the pentagon ?

where are the plane fragments?

[anticheffy]

omg

this is good

[~Hippie3]

Originally Posted by Mycoz

where are the plane fragments?

[OZ]

how did a plane punch a perfect little hole like that?

[Lazlo]

Don't forget, the plane hit the ground first, several hundred yards before the building and slid in to it. I'm sure the wings were lost on ground impact and the slide in to the building. As you can clearly see, there's plane fragments far from the building. The right wing of the plane has already been proved the culprit of demolishing a fence and moving a very large generator for the building. Sorry, but that generator couldn't be moved like that from a missle. Nor could several telephone poles, peoples vehicles, fences, stop lights and everything else in the planes path way slide to the building....

[~Hippie3]

Originally Posted by Mycoz

how did a plane punch a perfect little hole like that?

how did a missile ?

do some reading,
you'll soon discover how-
the fuselage is the only part of the plane solid enough to withstand impact,
tail and wings sheared off and did not penetrate.
and if you'll check the specs of that hole
you'll note it matches that of the airplane's diameter

[microscopyuseonly]

I have soo many points to bring to this discussion but won't for fear that I might acually lose braincells by trying to reason with people this stupid. You know, kinda like the black hole / binary star system effect. But if you must argue that it's a big "Bush conspiricy" then you must give him credit for being able to talk the terrorists into going along with the story by taking credit for it and all...... But i guess then you'd probly say something like " There are no terrorist. Those people are just U.S. government employees in disguise that did all this to trick the American people into a war so they can steal the worlds oil." Sigh, reminds me of a quote I heard in a movie once..... "A person is smart, people are stupid"

[Venice]

amen micro...

[~Hippie3]

i don't care much for that word,
stupid.
not only does it offend
but it's usually not true.
stupid is derived from stupify,
which implies a drugged condition,
e.g. alcohol , etc. is impairing cognition.

the reality is that for many
it's an article of faith,
facts are brought into conformity
with pre-existing bias
or ignored.
they believe what they want,
picking and choosing,
discarding whatever does not
fit their bias.

stubborn , not stupid.

[microscopyuseonly]

Sorry if I offended anyone but I figured since I didn't direct my comments to any one person or group of people that it wouldn't be considered a personal insult. But I do agree that "stubborn" would be the best word to describe those who refuse to accept the facts of the situation.

[Venice]

what word accurately describes the absence or lack of common sense?

"Common sense is a tool for adaptation whose main scope is establishing cause-and-effect and motivational relationships in the physical and social realms. The common sense deficit appears to involve a lack of intuitive attunement (impaired capacity to accurately typify the mental states of other persons because of the incapacity to be involved in their mental lives) and a damaged social knowledge network (disorders of the background of knowledge useful for organizing everyday experiences)."

I think "stubborn" may be somewhat generous.

[pskovinsky]

Idiot? Foolish?
I'd go for foolish, personally.

Furthermore, to get right down to it, ANYBODY who commits a terrorist act is therefor a terrorist.

Be it one of the US's government employees, one of Saudi's gov. people, one of canada's, or some misc civilian type from anywhere.

To commit a terrorist act is to become a terrorist.


To be a bit more on point, i highly doubt that the US government organized 9/11 in any way.
They certainly benefited from it, but it wasn't their idea.

[~Hippie3]

i'm not convinced that
anyone 'benefitted' from 9-11,
not the government
nor even UBL.
it was a net loss for all concerned.
war is always a waste.

[microscopyuseonly]

Originally Posted by Venice

I think "stubborn" may be somewhat generous.

I totally agree but love this forum and being a very new member am not quite sure how far I can go in expressing my critical opinions without fear of banishment. I've been kicked and witnessed people kicked from other such places for saying and or even implying less than I've already said. As Hippie's said on many topics before "this forum is a privilege, not a right or democracy".
I paraphrased from memory there......