Economic Collapse/ Dooms day/ The Sky is falling thread

[catdaddy]

Most of what I learned about hunting, fishing and camping was from a soft-spoken old man I knew as "Mr. Berry".

Sadly, I don't live near anyone like that anymore- or if I do I was too busy being Daddy for 25 years... so much of what I learned after leaving home did come in other ways- but I never stopped getting out there and living it, even if I had to occasionally rely on a guide to keep from eating the wrong plant or shroom... and what grows here is somewhat different from where I grew up.

I envy your positioning, man- and in a couple more years I will again be free of the State's requirements on my life- likely I will once again make my living trading my skills in complete freedom from taxation... well, almost complete...

When my folks pass on, I will likely retire on the family land "back home"- too much drama there now. Maybe not.

Plenty of game, the river nearby, woods as far as the eye can see from a TALL hill...

A man could get lost completely there.

[Hippie3]

yeah, hard to get around paying some sales tax.
bet half the fuckers collect the tax
but never send it in.

[Oblivion]

That's the easiest way for a bar to close down. They have to ante up the taxes from all the booze but they done spent it all.

[TVCasualty]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

age's relevancy pertains to health,
at 38 you're past your prime,
to put it mildly.

And yet, the guy who taught me that stuff is 20 years my senior and can still kick the twentysomething's asses on the trail. Lifestyle has a lot to do with health, and to a point is less relevant than how many times the Earth has gone around the Sun since we were born. A 61 year old friend of mine mountain bikes about 60 miles a week on steep technical singeltrack and he also beats the young'uns to the top of the mountain every time he doesn't crash into the bushes. He cracked a vertebra in his back trying to get air when he was skiing two years ago and was framing houses again 4 weeks later. His attitude is ferocious, and that compensates for a lot of years (those are some of my 'role models' for gettin' old).

Besides, hunting and gathering is not nearly as physically intensive as agriculture. It's more knowledge-based than labor-based, so the older one gets in that context, the more valuable they become as their knowledge is proportionally greater. A bunch of young, strong guys will still starve to death if they don't know which plants to eat. For what it's worth, the guy who taught my teacher was 80 at the time.

One glaring oversight I forgot to mention in my incredibly pessimistic sounding assessment that so few people would survive a collapse is the primary force behind the probable mass-death: diarrhea. Hygiene and disease is the Achilles Heel of post-industrial survival, so large groups of refugees, even if friendly, should be carefully avoided. Don't go anywhere near the Superdome!


As far as using a field guide to ID plants goes, I would highly recommend using two guides and cross-checking them. Like with mushrooms, a misidentified plant (if eaten) can be... bad.

[Hippie3]

guys that are in great shape at 80
are 1 in 100,000.
statistically most men are dead by that age.

so some extraordinary examples like you cited
don't go far towards convincing me.

sounds like
as long as i avoid
you and your octagenarian sensei
i'll be ok against the rest.

typical middle-aged americans circa 2010 AD

[Hippie3]

hunting and gathering is not nearly as physically intensive as agriculture

depends on how one does agriculture.
i see these good old boys
sitting in air conditioned cab
of huge tractors,
they aren't working that damn hard.

besides
i'll tell you what beats both-
raising meat animals.

a chicken goes from egg to fryer
in about 16 weeks.
let them roam free-range
and labor is almost nil-
just fill water holes daily.

my 30 chickens will soon
give me a dozen eggs a day
plus more chicken than i'd care to eat.
feathers for pillows, stuffing quilts, coats, etc.

a breeding pair of pigs
can crank out about
30 piglets a year,
each harvesting at over 200 pounds.
meat plus lard,
lard = oil .fuel.

my goats give me milk, cheese, meat and fur.
ducks give eggs, meat, water-proof feathers.
rabbits = meat, fur.

plus all have real economic value-
wealth was measured in livestock
for thousands of years
before money was even invented.

and best thing is
they're portable-
herd-able actually.
they follow me
'cause i'm the feed guy,
as well as their protector.

[catdaddy]

SHIT! I always thought animals followed me around for my rugged good looks and sexy physique!

Are you saying it COULD be because I feed them and fulfill their sexual desires?

No, wait, that's the women... I get them confused sometimes...

[Hippie3]

i bet you do,
you baa-baaaaad boy

[eatyualive]

more news...

State shutdowns loom as deadlines near


At least 19 states still have to approve their fiscal 2010 budgets before next Tuesday. If they don't, staffers might not be paid and services might shut down.


NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- One week and counting. An unprecedented number of states have only days left to pass their fiscal 2010 budgets.
At least 19 states are still hammering out their spending plans as the recession wreaks havoc with their finances and sparks fights between governors and lawmakers. If spending plans aren't approved, state workers may not receive their paychecks and some government offices may shut down.
"A lot of states are coming down to the wire," said Todd Haggerty, research analyst for the National Conference of State Legislatures. "More than what's typical. The unprecedented economic situation is creating a lot of difficulty this year."
0:00 /02:56State budgets: billions short
Some 46 states end their fiscal years on June 30 and all but one require balanced budgets be adopted.
States are struggling to close shortfalls totaling $121 billion for fiscal 2010 as the recession decimates tax revenues.
The budget battles have even landed some in court. In Arizona, Republican Gov. Jan Brewer has filed a lawsuit against the Republican-controlled legislature seeking to compel lawmakers to send her the budget it passed on June 4. The lawmakers are holding backuntil an agreement is reached because she has said she would veto it.
Leaders are at odds over how to contend with a deficit that exceeds $3 billion. The governor has proposed raising taxes, including hiking the sales tax by a percentage point, while the legislators are cutting spending.
Brewer is hoping lawmakers will send her a budget before Arizona has to start shutting down non-essential state services. That would require some major changes since she does not support the current spending plans.
"She doesn't think much of what's in them," said Paul Senseman, the governor's spokesman.
Arizona Senate President Bob Burns is also confident that the two sides will reach an agreement and avoid a government shut down. The two branches are meeting daily, a spokeswoman for Burns said.
In some states, the leaders aren't even talking. Pennsylvania's governor and Senate Republicans, who have to close a $3.2 billion gap for the current year, are not negotiating on their budgets.
"There's been no significant movement on the budget," said Chuck Ardo, press secretary for Gov. Ed Rendell, who is prepared to cancel his African safari in August if the budget isn't set.
The governor's $28.4 billion budget seeks to raise the personal income tax rate by half-a-percentage point and draining the commonwealth's $750 million rainy day fund. Senate Republicans' $27.3 billion plan looks to cut spending on areas such as education and community revitalization.
Though the states has never passed a budget on time during Rendell's seven years in office, both sides agree this year is the worst standoff ever.
"It's hard to see how a meeting would be productive given the two very different points of view," said Erik Arneson, communications director for Senate Majority Leader Dominic Pileggi. "At this point, there's no support in our caucus for a tax increase."
Sending IOUs instead of $$$
If states don't pass their budgets on time, one of three things usually happens, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures. Lawmakers can pass temporary appropriations measures to keep the doors open and bills paid. Some states have provisions that maintain funding for agencies and services even without a budget.
Sometimes, however, the government faces a shutdown. When Tennessee officials failed to pass a budget on time in 2002, classes stopped at public universities, drivers licenses were not issued and road construction ceased.
Pennsylvania's Rendell has already said state workers would have to stay on the job without being paid if the budget isn't approved. Services will start to be affected if the budget standoff continues beyond its typical week's delay.
Even states that have passed budgets are struggling to close expanding deficits.
California approved its budget in February, but lawmakers and the governor are now locking horns over how to solve a $24 billion shortfall before June 30. The legislature presented a budget proposal last week that includes $11.4 billion in cuts and $2 billion in revenue hikes, but Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger dismissed it as a piecemeal approach full of gimmicks.
If a budget isn't passed in coming days, California will run out of cash and be forced to start issuing IOUs, Controller John Chiang said on Wednesday. The state faced a similar situation in February, but at that time it had the option of withholding $3 billion in state tax refunds.
Now, it doesn't have that cushion. Also, the shortfall is now nearly five times as large, forcing the controller to withhold payments to local governments for social services, private contractors, state vendors, as well as income and corporate tax refunds.
"Next Wednesday we start a fiscal year with a massively unbalanced spending plan and a cash shortfall not seen since the Great Depression," Chiang said. "The state's $2.8 billion cash shortage in July grows to $6.5 billion in September, and after that we see a double-digit freefall."

http://money.cnn.com/2009/06/24/news/economy/Clock_ticking_on_state_budgets/

[Hippie3]

the economic collapse of state governments
doesn't exactly bring a tear to my eye.
the way i see it
less money
means fewer state-paid piggies
trying to stick their snouts
where they don't belong...

[TVCasualty]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

guys that are in great shape at 80
are 1 in 100,000.
statistically most men are dead by that age.

so some extraordinary examples like you cited
don't go far towards convincing me.

Convincing you of what? How did age come into this in the first place? Oh yeah, it's when you asked me how old I was and then steered the discussion toward how "past my prime" I am, which has no bearing on anything else we're talking about (I am not the topic, or so I thought).

And sure, most folks are dead by 80, so what? If a critical mass of our infrastructure collapses or becomes otherwise unviable, most folks will be dead by the end of the year, and the majority of deaths will come from disease, not violence, but rampant disease will compel those not yet sick to run like Hell in all directions (as panic tends to make people do). I should probably say "flee" instead of "run," especially in light of the pics you posted of those big folks (btw, that one of the woman in the pink dress was 'shopped; I've seen it before but none of the "code pink" or antiwar stuff was in it originally, but I digress). When the fleeing, panicked people encounter the stationary (and possibly also panicking) people, gunfire will ensue and pathogens will be exchanged.

In the not too distant past, say over 100-150 years ago, a social collapse would appear comepletely different than if it happened today. Most people in developed nations don't have any sense about living off the land at all anymore (or what to wipe their asses with when there's no toilet paper), unlike back before ubiquitous industrialilzation when a measure of self sufficiency was a basic requirement to live.

Now we take it for granted that we won't die when we get diarrhea or break our arm, but those are life-threatening conditions if clean water and modern medicine are not available. Most people have forgotten that scurvy can be a serious problem, and even fewer people know that they can get at least as much vitamin-C from pine needle tea as from oranges, or that wild edibles are generally twice to three times as nutritious as our domesticated crops so much less mass needs to be procured/grown and consumed if gathering wild plants than if farming (part of the reason for less effort involved).

And if our culture collapses or implodes or whatever, the thought of continuing along doing air-conditoned tractor work sounds to me more like a post-apocalyptic Mad Max fantasy than anything else, at least after the first year or two.

[Hippie3]

gee, relax man, i'm not getting personal-
the pics i linked plainly show that my point was that
very damn few are capable of what you claim 'hordes' will be doing.
'convincing me' addresses your points specifically,
the scenario you've laid out.
but i just think maybe you're locked into one perspective-
i.e. the 'naked guy in the bushes'.
i'm just saying that there's more than one solution to such a problematic scenario.
your approach just would not work for me,
and i submit it would not work for most people either.
as i see it
there won't be hordes of special forces / army rangers / SEAL teams
boiling out of the cities like locusts to devour the countryside.
nearly all of us will be compelled by neccesity to make the best of it
right where we are.
so i'm just addressing that issue-
what to do for those of us that are unable/unwilling to live on the run in the bush.
how to defend the homestead against those that will come with bad intentions.
there are ways of dealing with hordes of men , too.
so i'm not trying to tell you personally anything-
as always i'm addressing 'the crowd' who read these threads.
i have no reason to doubt your statements about your own abilities,
i'm just arguing that there are
damn few like you.
as for the hordes of hungry city refugees,
i plan to emulate the Southerners that resisted the Union raiders,
when they come
no one will be home.
everything worth stealing will have already been hidden away
deep in the woods.
they won't stay long when it's just another abandoned house,
they'll have to move along in search of more.
and i don't see people as unable to deal with simple problems
like diarrhea or fractures.
we know to boil creek water and to make splints.
with some preparation and planning
i think it's entirely feasible for many to hold their ground,
and occasional episodes of being compelled to hide in the woods
will be brief.
that, too, can be prepared for , stashing needed food, water, gear
in the woods ahead of time.
bug spray too.

[johnnydigital]

Nowaday's people just take so much shit for granted. They turn on the faucet and get water, they flick a switch and get light, go to the grocery store and pick up their pre-packaged, select cuts of meat and genetically modified produce year round... once those things are no longer available, the majority will have no clue what to do next... not to mention the diseases. And how much you wanna bet that if shit goes down, people will be looting clothes and bigscreen Tv's right off the bat... and I'll be laughing at them while i'm looting guns and food stocks and medicine.....

Even if people had the tools to kill a cow, do you think they'd know how to gut and clean it? Not to mention to preserve it without electricity. Ever see the 'into the wild' movie? The kid goes out into the Alaskan wilderness to live off the land... he does ok at first, kills a moose, but doesn't know how to preserve the meat and it all goes bad, then he eats poisonous berries and slowly starves to death. He lasted about 7 or 8 months I think.

Once the collapse of society happens, everyone will need to be a doctor, everyone will need to be a farmer, everyone will need to be an engineer...
It's just all about knowledge and preparation... come up with a plan. Invest in things that are sustainable, or that can sustain. Learn how shit works, and why it works... be an engineer....Become one again with nature, learn how shit grows and what it likes, what is edible and what isn't. With the right plan, and preparation, one can live out his/her life fairly easily without 'society'. Hell, it's a lot easier to do so now, than it was even 100 years ago.... much less 1000 years ago... and people managed.....

If one is interested in further reading on this topic, I recommend an e-book, "A SteamPUnks Guide to the Apocalypse".

[Hippie3]

keeping a stockpile of viable seed for needed crops is wise.

[catdaddy]

For the last few years I have been collecting seeds- heirloom when possible. Last summer I scored a HUGE quantity of vegetable seeds, some heirloom. I will use up the hybrids, while planting my "permanent' garden in heirloom seed.

REALLY need a better tiller, though. This one beats the shit out of me, but! It's bought and paid for...

[Hippie3]

my collection is small and focused primarily on feed for animals,
like beets, which i personally detest.
pumpkin, alfalfa, cabbage.
lots of corn too, ethanol is fuel.
remember to rotate out old seed [plant them]
and replace with fresh seed yearly if at all possible.

[catdaddy]

You can make vodka out of beets, with no additional sugar... but it sucks ass.

I did date the seeds as they arrived, but mine are all vegetable at this time. I don't have enough land here for pasture, but the family land back home has about ten acres in alfalfa and clover.

Never got a goat this year, but a pig will eat damn near anything.

[Hippie3]

true that,
my new pig eats banana peels, watermelon rinds.
walking garbage disposal they are.

got a friend working in elderly care center
in the kitchen.
every 3 days they toss out the leftovers, old produce, etc.
so she's hooked me up,
every 3 days i go by and grab 5 gallon buckets of free slop.

i'm naming him
Roadkill,
because when he escaped
i had to run him over with my truck
to catch him.
knocked the wind out of him
but otherwise he came out of it un-hurt.

now i wait till spring next year
to bring home a gilt for him to breed.

[ethnobotanica]

typical middle-aged americans circa 2010 AD

Looks there's there's enough meat on these 2 to keep one going for a while, not to mention all the "lamp fuel" as well.
Sorry, i couldn't help that one.

[catdaddy]

Back when I was a kid, one of my uncles- a pig farmer- bought a BRAND NEW Studebaker pickup.

On the way home he rounded a corner, and hit a 300 lb sow- one of his own!

TOTALLED the pickup, and the pig got up and walked away!

Ethno- the youngest son and I have an ongoing conversation about the possibility of using the clientele of Ryan's as a food source...

[Hippie3]

luckily my little guy is only about 45-50 pounds, i'd guess, just weaned
so the truck was not damaged.

[TVCasualty]

Originally Posted by catdaddy

Never got a goat this year, but a pig will eat damn near anything.

I was warned not to mess with a hog farmer. They might find your dental fillings or any rings you happened to be wearing in the hog poop, but that's all they're gonna find once you're body's tossed in the pen. Conversely, hog farmers are good to know when some asshole is messing with you.

Originally Posted by Hippie3

gee, relax man, i'm not getting personal-
the pics i linked plainly show that my point was that
very damn few are capable of what you claim 'hordes' will be doing

.

I interpreted this as being directed at me personally:

Originally Posted by Hippie3

age's relevancy pertains to health,
at 38 you're past your prime,
to put it mildly.

And yes, I fully agree that few will be able to do it. That's why I think most will not survive. As that realization dawns on those who are still left, things will get really interesting really fast. Those mega-people in hte pics will be the first to go is all.

The hordes probably won't be organized beyond small gangs of thugs, so any semblance of organization among you and your community would likely repel them fairly easily if they came one group at a time. 24/7 sentries posted at all access choke points would be key, as would rigging the bridges to blow if they're overrun. Sortwave radio communication with other possible surviving groups would be nice, so we need HAM radios and solar panels to charge the batteries too. We will be back in the old days in terms of the types of battles we'll be in, so the old tactics apply again as well. I like studying Napoleon's tactics, and Medieval fortification design for this reason (which is amazingly complex and brilliant in many cases).

My focus is on is the absolute worst case scenario. You're focused on a really really bad scenario, but not the absolute worst. I hope yours is the one that comes to pass, but I'd like to be ready for the worst one too.

And as I said the last time we had this conversation, the only thing we can always bring with us if we have to flee without any notice is the knowledge inside our heads. Even if you and your friends return and re-take your homestead after being driven off by a large mob, there will be a few days/weeks of living the way I keep describing and you may not even have your knife. You could always store a (subtly marked) batch of tasty food that's been dosed with strong poison among the rest of your stores so that if you do get raided you'll be able to go back in a couple of days and bury all the bodies, which is better than open warfare against a force of superior numbers.

But if people for various reasons can't flee, I think they react negatively to my take on this because they see themselves as being dead meat in the scenario I often describe, and no one wants to be in that role so my assessment must be wrong. Well, frankly I'd most likely be toast too, but I'm trying to steer the probabilities my way a little bit by learning what I can while I can. I can only do my best, just like everyone else, and we're all gonna die anyway so until then all we can do is go for it with what we have.

Even if you can't get out of there in a hurry like someone else might, your knowledge and intelligence insures you'll get the help you need (because of the help you can offer). Knowing where a natural salt lick is is literally priceless information, for example. Knowledge, experience, and skill is worth a lot more than simple strength; someone has to tell all those youngun's still in their primes where to stack the wood and how to build/repair/modify stuff etc etc.

Being ready to be hyper-moblie as I am, if the shit starts hitting the fan Big Time, I'd be happy to get the hell out of where I am right now and if invited I'd head up there and join your fortified county since it does sound like you are already ahead of the game in terms of preparation and only getting moreso as time goes on. I'd bring some very, very useful people with me, and a large group of intelligent, skilled, and tough people may even eventually control the whole region and be the starting point of what comes next in terms of reinventing our society. It would take us about a month to walk to your place from mine (or at least to the post office you use for 'Topia's address), maybe two if things were really intense and we had to travel invisibly. It'd take me two weeks if I was solo (I have hiked 25 miles in a day before; a loooong day that hurt).

I'd prefer to do it the way you have been describing, but I feel compelled to prepare for Plan B as well. In any case, the larger the group of smart, like-minded individuals we're part of, the greater the chance we can live closer to Plan A. But the plan has to be in place before we need it.

[Hippie3]

i'd always figured the absolute worst case
would be nuclear war-
until i learned about asteroids and super-volcanoes .
but to me that's worst case.
i don't think economic collapse would happen quickly enough,
people would be able to see it coming, at least a few weeks or months in advance.
and that means there would be resources still in the chain headed to market,
and warehoused, inventory.
might not be much diesel fuel to be found though,
and gasoline could disappear pretty quickly, too.
better get equipment that could burn what you can make,
ethanol from grain/fruit and perhaps even methane from dung.
power could go fast too, if the coal trains quit coming.
better study the Amish and Mennonites for how to live without electricity.
even with a couple generators, you'll save fuel if you ration electric use.
www.lehmans.com carries lots of Amish goodies.
solar panels-great idea, useful.
i'd love to have a small windmill, too.
shortwave radio is one i don't have yet but it's smart move too.
first rally 'round the Family
then recruit allies.
there's a lot of land outside the cities,
America's not nearly full like some countries.
proximity to mega-urban areas like the D.C. corridor
would be more dangerous
than most of the rest of the country.
so i'd urge folks to get out of large cities ASAP .
put several miles distance between yourself and megalopolis.
say 50 miles distance for every 1-3 million in the city.
across that much land area
even a million would spread very thin.
most would find a place to hole up, or perish,
before they reach your area.

[toadshroom]

here's an interesting tidbit...people that consume a lot of garlic in their diets typically don't get bit by bloodsuckers (ticks, mosquitos, vampires, etc.) If bug spray runs out, have a BIG patch of garlic growing! However, garlic takes a while until it's ready to be harvested, so think ahead

[Hippie3]

I like studying Napoleon's tactics, and Medieval fortification design for this reason (which is amazingly complex and brilliant in many cases).

going even further back
the romans were pretty damn good for low tek,
check out
Julius Caesar's Gallic wars for great stuff on
impromptu fortification ideas,
like digging a ditch at the base of a wall to increase effective height.
placing sharpened wooden stakes/spears at bottom of the ditch, etc.
materials used were mostly all just dirt and timber,
forts you could slap together in a day or two.

[catdaddy]

I had to look twice- I thought you said "Julius Caesar's GARLIC wars"

Garlic is also good for keeping away women.

[Hippie3]

Gallic- as in Gaul, roman name for area now known as France

[catdaddy]

Believe it or not, I actually KNEW that! It's just my vision is slowly failing, and I need to increase the font size.

On the garlic issue, my Dad had a NICE patch of elephant garlic, but I FORGOT to dig some up while I was there.

BTW (OT WARNING)- How was the band?

[Hippie3]

re- garlic [preserving]
cf. http://extension.oregonstate.edu/fcd...pdf/50-645.pdf
.......................................
not too bad really.
unfortunately a badass thunderstorm came thru
and they had to get off-stage early.
but the rain eventually stopped,
they did a couple more songs,
the fireworks show was awesome,
one of the best i've ever seen.
then it rained some more.
but country folks are tough-
no one left even at peak of storm.
we don't get out much down here
so given the chance
we won't give it up easily.

[xxcportxx]

hey anyone know the nutrional content of a person , I think enthobotanical had a rather off the wall but important point...... wouldnt there be people out there killing and eating other people for food?would you look down on those that did so to survive? would you eat a person?

[Hippie3]

if the shit starts hitting the fan Big Time, I'd be happy to get the hell out of where I am right now and if invited I'd head up there and join your fortified county since it does sound like you are already ahead of the game in terms of preparation and only getting moreso as time goes on. I'd bring some very, very useful people with me, and a large group of intelligent, skilled, and tough people may even eventually control the whole region and be the starting point of what comes next in terms of reinventing our society. It would take us about a month to walk to your place from mine (or at least to the post office you use for 'Topia's address), maybe two if things were really intense and we had to travel invisibly.

sure, come on down.
grab some horses on the way.

[Hippie3]

Originally Posted by xxcportxx

hey anyone know the nutrional content of a person , I think enthobotanical had a rather off the wall but important point...... wouldnt there be people out there killing and eating other people for food?would you look down on those that did so to survive? would you eat a person?

i hear that human meat does not taste very good,
of course in severe famine
folks have been known
to eat their own children
so anything is possible...

[eatyualive]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

i hear that human meat does not taste very good,
of course in severe famine
folks have been known
to eat their own children
so anything is possible...

you can put jerk spice on anything and it will taste good!joking of course...or am i?

[Hippie3]

as for me
i cannot envision eating a human.
i'd sooner eat sparrows or earthworms.
and you - just keep yer distance
mr. eats you alive

[catdaddy]

I always heard it was quite sweet- but all I ever ate tasted like clorox- treated water and smelled slightly of fish...

Except this one time, it smelled like strawberries...

[TVCasualty]

Originally Posted by xxcportxx

hey anyone know the nutrional content of a person , I think enthobotanical had a rather off the wall but important point...... wouldnt there be people out there killing and eating other people for food?would you look down on those that did so to survive? would you eat a person?

Are you talking about exocannibalism or endocannibalism? That is, eating people from a different social group, or from within your own? Either way, there is a risk of Kuru (brain disease similar to CJD). I really didn't know there were so many sub-categories of cannibalism until I checked the wiki page. Sorry, no recipes or USDA Nutrition Facts were posted.

[TVCasualty]

Originally Posted by toadshroom

here's an interesting tidbit...people that consume a lot of garlic in their diets typically don't get bit by bloodsuckers (ticks, mosquitos, vampires, etc.) If bug spray runs out, have a BIG patch of garlic growing! However, garlic takes a while until it's ready to be harvested, so think ahead

They also leave you alone if you eat local wild vegetation for a week or so. A thin layer of mud can also protect your skin from skeeters and sunburn, and helps make you harder to see should that be necessary.


On a semi-related note, I've been corresponding with some like-minded individuals about this very subject for a while now, and apparently one of them is in the process of securing the resources to make something significant happen in terms of a large land purchase. Right now we're discussing possible locations, and some suggestions have been Belize (buying an island off the coast of it), rural parts of France, maybe Portugal, Romania, etc.). Obviously nothing is off the table yet, so I'd like to ask if y'all got any suggestions for good spots for a group comprising about 150 people from about a dozen different nationalities who don't want to get strung up for smoking a joint or quaffing some ayahuasca occasionally. The Island of Mauritius (just East of Madagascar) sounded absolutely perfect until I read that it was one of those backward-ass barbaric places where I could get strung up by my own rope if I tried to grow some there. So the search continues...

The people involved so far are from diverse backgrounds and many have extensive experience with intentional communities from the 60's and 70's, so we won't be re-inventing the wheel (and making the same old mistakes) and a few are Western-trained physicians which is handy, and most are professionals of some type which will help with the economic aspect. This isn't a classic hippie commune; it'll be more like a master-planned neighborhood focused on economic, agricultural, and existential autonomy within the limits of what is practical. We're not trying to run away somewhere distant, we're trying to live an example of a way to do things a little differently.

Right now I'm totally unencumbered except for a mortgage, but those are easy enough to walk away from when the equity is negligible, so in the interest of keeping my life an adventure worth waking up for I'm priming myself for another big move soon. The Journey is the Quest, after all.

[Hippie3]

problem is in foreign nations
your legal rights largely don't exist,
you're not from around there,
no relatives to complain if you disappear.
you're not a citizen,
and the american embassy is next to useless.
plenty of great remote under-populated areas in the usa,
and law enforcement in the rurals is different, too.
more laid-back,
i see folks here still riding around in the bed of pickup trucks-
illegal under state law, get you busted quick trying it in big city.
the western usa and the rural south / midwest still have strong traditions
of self-sufficiency, independence, privacy.
states like arkansas are mostly empty as the land is almost worthless,
too hilly to farm , a few raise goats .
really,
most areas with limited commercial value are still quite livable,
land in the hills/mountains,
land in flood plains / swampy areas,
arid / barren / desert / frozen land, etc.
go where the money ain't,
cost of living is often lower too.
and you get to help the local economy.

[johnnydigital]

Solar panels are pretty expensive, I'd be stealing as many solar powered streetlights as I can get my hands on. For power though, ethanol and steam would be my power of choice. You can do a hell of alot with steam power. What else would be cool, would be to do one of those diesel to biodiesel conversions... then you wouldn't have to worry about fuel as much...

I'd go comondeer a rural school first.. big cafeteria, usually a boiler system that can be easily retrofitted, a workshop, etc....

[Hippie3]

one reason horses are so great-
they self-reproduce, can heal from injuries
unlike machinery.
their fuel is vegetation.
for thousands of years,
before gas or steam engines
horses are how folks got
themselves, their goods, etc., around,
how they did heavy work,
and how they went to war.

[catdaddy]

Not to mention they make about as good a friend as a good dog.

[Hippie3]

they're beautiful animals.

[toadshroom]

I would think oxen would be great too. I just finished reading a book titled "Germans in Wisconsin" it's about their immigration story from leaving germany, the ship's journey to new york then ferry or wagon or train ride to wisconsin. Many of them prefered oxen as they could get more work done in a day and didn't tire out so quickly. It's a good, short read if anyone's interested. It's interesting to read about the struggles the early farming immigrants went through. Once arriving at their destination they had to get a piece of land, quickly clear enough land to build shelter and a small garden to produce their own food before the next winter set in and only after a year or two of this were they able to start farming the bulk of their land. It's just incredible the amount of work they had to get done in such little time so as to be able to survive through the winter.

[Hippie3]

don't see many oxen around anymore,
only reason there are many horses
is people ride / race them.

[toadshroom]

maybe it would be a great investment then, to get oxen now.

On a side note, there's a place around here that has buffalo, lots and lots of buffalo on a ranch. I doubt you could hook up a plow to a buffalo, but it would be a great food source, imo, depending on the rate of how much they consum to how much yield you'd get from their meat. Lots of good hide and fur on a buffalo too.

I'm but just wanted to point out another great food source (and source of many other implements) in buffalo. Plus, i wouldn't worry about the naked guy in the bush with his coke bottle knife taking down a buffalo

[eatyualive]

also if the horse dies. you can eat it. jerk horse!

actually saw some buffalo in washington the other week.

[Hippie3]

yeah,
there are a couple ranches around here that raise buffalo,
elk too. hear there's good money in elk antlers,
and it's a renewable resource
as they grow a new set every year.
a nice rack can fetch $1000 .

[Oblivion]

Originally Posted by catdaddy

I know where the nearest salt BLOCK is.... about 75 yards from my back door, in a clear line of sight...

You will want quite a few of those blocks to keep the wild animals close.

[Hippie3]

you do know to bury them a few inches,
the salt leaches into soil.
lasts longer than dumping block on ground.

[johnnydigital]

Is she wearing mushroom socks? If so, I think I've found my new love interest.... mmmmm, a 'code pinker' too....