Economic Collapse/ Dooms day/ The Sky is falling thread

[Hippie3]

dude...draw the line.

[johnnydigital]

Big girls need love too!!!

[stimpy]

AK's are reliable, AR's are accurate, but .22's keep you from starving.
saw a tacticool ruger 10/22 for $330 today. All synthetic with fold out stalk like whoa?

[Oblivion]

Definitely. For the price of ammo, .22 is the way to go for meals. Easy enough to accumulate tens of thousands of rounds. Enough to last a lifetime. The other firearms you mentioned are a must for defence though. The .22 won't do much good against a mob of starving people.

[Hippie3]

can't re-load .22 either
but they are cheap and fairly effective

[eatyualive]

here s the russian guy who thought in 1998 that us was going to collapse. some of what he says makes sense. some of it well..

he says that its really bad for russia but also thinks that the country would split into 6 sections.



also talking about shifting off the us dollar as well.

here is another guy talking about food shortages, commercial real estate collapse, and revolution, tea parties.



here is a marathon. i guess this is rt channel russian talk? i dont know. they have a very different view than our media.



civil war in the us. wow crazy. this is regular talk on this station.



bankers partying



world central bank on the way

[eatyualive]

http://blogs.moneycentral.msn.com/to...ady-at-20.aspx

Really, how hard is it to find a job? Was June's horrid numbers, in which 467,000 people lost their jobs compared to 345,000 in May, a one-time fluke? Or does it mean that all those Wall Street economists who believe the economic recovery is starting are dead wrong?
Not to scare you, but the situation is actually worse than it seems. Over the years, the government has changed the way it counts the unemployed. An example of this is the criticized Birth-Death Model which was added in 2000. The model is designed to account for the birth and death of businesses and the resultant lag in survey data. Unfortunately, the model doesn't work that well during economic contractions (like we have now) and consistently overstates the number of jobs being created each month.
John Williams of Shadow Government Statistics specializes in removing these questionable tweaks to the government's statistical data to better align current numbers with the methodology used to gather historical data. After reviewing the data, Williams believes that "the June jobs loss likely exceeded 700,000." David Rosenberg of Gluskin Sheff notes that the fall in the number of hours worked in June (to a record low of 33 per week) is equivalent to a loss of more than 800,000 jobs.
There are similar issues with the way the unemployment rate is measured. The headline rate only jumped from 9.4% to 9.5% because of a drop in the number of people in the workforce. The more inclusive "U-6" measure of unemployment, which includes discouraged workers, jumped from 16.4% to 16.5%. But even this doesn't adequately capture the situation on the ground: Back in the Clinton Administration, the definition of discouraged worker was changed to only include those that had given up looking for work because there were no jobs to be had within the last year.


By adding these folks back in, William's SGS-Alternate Unemployment Measure rose to a jaw-dropping 20.6%. Separately, the Center for Labor Market Studies in Boston puts U.S. unemployment at 18.2%. Any way you cut the numbers, the situation is very bad. According to David Rosenberg, one-in-three among the unemployed have been looking for a job for more than six months and still can't find one.


This brings us to another issue: expiring unemployment benefits. Continuing unemployment claims fell 53,000 to 6.7 million last week, but Deutsche Bank's chief U.S. economist Joseph LaVorgna wonders how much of this decline is due people exhausting their standard 26-week benefit. He says: "We are concerned about what will happen when a significant share of out-of-work individuals' benefits completely expire, because this could lead consumer spending to re-weaken, hence jeopardizing a fragile recovery."
Unless the economy starts getting traction here in the third quarter, we could face a situation where people find that they have no job and no unemployment benefits. For these people, 2009 will feel an awful lot like 1932. As a result, spending cuts will be deep and dramatic.
My positions
The ongoing job losses will continue to weigh on the retail sector -- which was one of the best performing groups coming out of the March low. I've added short positions in Target (TGT), Macy's (M), and Office Depot (ODP) to my portfolio. Besides penny-pinching consumers, retailers face a federal minimum wage increase as well as a tough back-to-school and holiday shopping season.

[Hippie3]

yeah, pretty damn grim.

[eatyualive]

that russian talk channel says quite a bit of things our media doesn't. some good discussion on there.

plus new stimulus, possible carbon cap and the new housing regulations they passed are not helping. hope our rulers wake up and figure out passing endless spending bills will not push us forward.

i don't buy the usa splitting into 6 sections. but the possibility of a third world usa. could be a reality. this is already dwarfing the great depression numbers of the first year of depression. read something about it the other day. but we didn't have the housing and commercial real estate issues and we had manufacturing then.

and the talk of passing more stimulus to upgrade our infrastructure such as bridges and roads and military bases. yes we need these upgraded i agree. but i don't agree that spending this money to do so is going to help us get out of this recession. the war got us out of depression in the past. but we were building things here. not importing them. and now we have two wars ongoing. so world war 3 is not an option to get us out of this mess.

[Hippie3]

oh, don't worry,
it won't be just spending-
they're coming after us all
for more taxes.

[eatyualive]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

oh, don't worry,
it won't be just spending-
they're coming after us all
for more taxes.

yeah seems like they are slowly going to tax us out of existence.

sounds like fun. ill attach traps to my tax stubs.

[Oblivion]

Well, money isnt real, not anymore anyway. Especially with all of our digital money. Our masters know that to be true. We are under the illusion that we are in debt and that's how they like it. What they are really doing is keeping us under control and trying to make that permanent.

[eatyualive]

The US trade deficit narrowed sharply in May to its lowest level in a decade, led by a plunge in imported oil, government data showed Friday.
The deficit fell nearly 10 percent in May to a seasonally adjusted 26.0 billion dollars, the lowest level since July 1999, the Commerce Department said.
Most analyst expected the gap would widen to 30 billion dollars amid the global recession that has battered international trade. The May deficit was 57.1 percent lower than a year ago, while trade volume grew only 0.4 percent.
The Commerce Department lowered the April deficit to 28.8 billion dollars from 29.2 billion dollars.
The reduction in the trade gap resulted from a slight decline in imports and a stronger increase in exports as the weak dollar made US goods and services more affordable.
With the world's biggest economy reeling from a prolonged recession, imports fell for the 10th consecutive month, by 0.6 percent, to 149.3 billion dollars, their lowest level since July 2004.
Exports, which had fallen for the two preceding months, leapt 1.6 percent, their strongest gain since July 2008, to 123.3 billion dollars.
In a sign of continued weak US domestic demand, the goods deficit fell 6.5 percent to 37.330 billion dollars.
The services surplus rose for the third month running, by 2.1 percent to 11.368 billion dollars.
A steep drop in oil imports accounted for half the decline in the May trade gap. Oil imports fell 11 percent in May. Excluding oil, the trade gap closed 4.7 percent.

if you read what schiff says. he says watch out for the trade deficit shrinking. he says at first it will be looked at as good. but it will truly show the plunge in the dollar. and it means other countries are buying more us bc the dollar value is lower. one big thing he talks about watching for is a trade surplus. one of his tell tale signs dollars about to crash.

[Hippie3]

long term
a trade surplus
is a good thing...

[eatyualive]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

long term
a trade surplus
is a good thing...

yes it is. but not when we are not exporting anymore than we were. looks like it lowered bc we are importing less gas.

gets scary if the trade deficit turns to surplus not of our doing...

[Hippie3]

i'm not scared-
it just means we're spending our money and time at home.
much lost productivity could be rebuilt in several years,
we have the resources needed to be a thriving economy
right here in the usa.

[roc]

Ok I have stayed out of this simply because I have recently been thrown into survival mode and I simply don't have as much time to post or read here but let's get fucking real about one thing - this whole bullshit perspective about oil and gas prices and what causes the big ups and downs in prices you pay is simply the greed of a few american people that speculate and play the futures market. And then turn around and blame it on some foreign country or dictator.

As far as civil war goes in this country (usa) we should have all got up off of our asses a long time ago when we saw the takeover of the family farms that produce the food and revolted then... for those old enough to remember the tractor parade in DC and the movement Willie and the Boys sang about and started Farm Aid it will become clear that DC did not care for the fact that the bread basket of the world could threaten them by the fact that they had the food source and had a lot of leverage against our commie government. Over the past 20 years they have taken over the family farms and now most of KS, TX, NE, IL are run by a few big Corporate companies. How did they pull it off? Getting control of the food source was pretty damn easy when the banks loaned more money to the farms than there land was worth and then thru deregulation of the nat gas, diesel, and other energy sources within a 10 year period all the small family farms were lost due to the fucking bank ordered sales to the corporate bastard farms and the technology they use to automate and run from control stations behind a fuckin desk with a few migrant workers and the previous land owners that still had to work to feed themselves. This is exactly the same thing that has happened recently to to housing market - more loaned than the people could afford and more than the value of the house. Get it?

Wake the fuck up people - it is time for a war in this country but I really would not consider it a civil war - the war should not be among ourselves like the North and South was but should be "we the people" against this slime bag greedy bunch of politicians and runaway government we have in place today.

It will not be a civil war, it will be a revolution!

It somewhat sickens me that people will prepare to hunker down with ammo, food, and survival stuff all the while setting in fear and not doing a fucking thing except giving up and not fighting the real problem being DC and those crooked bastards we call congress.

I am glad that Eats has it figured out!
If you really want to know what is happening in this country then you damn well better start reading and seeing news reported from other countries and stop watching and reading the shit put out in the usa. Our media is controlled by government and the folks with an agenda to weaken and control our public masses.
Stop and think about this one... the digital tv conversion and all the government funded boxs and delay due to not having all the rural and poor people that don't have any other means like cable and internet. They will damn well kill the ego and spirit of the people (already happening) and those not in the know will turn into sheeple and will no longer be free. Doesn't it burn your ass to set watch/hear/read and focus all media on the digital conversion ad cost, coupon cost, and delay cost while people are going homeless and hungry and unemployed? The first expense to go at my house is going to be cable tv and then my landline so if I want to watch anything it will be via HDTV broadcast over the air to watch and hear a very limited source of info and once I can't afford an internet connection then they have the sheeple under conditions like we see about other countries and go Wow! I sure am glad I am not living there...

Enough of my random shit thought storm but hey wtf I have to throw in my 2 cents!

[valleyofmushies]

i think someone posted earlier something that said that this next christmas might be the last retailer's christmas which we have seen since it has been a retailer's one since we started buying everything we give away at xmas time....maybe next year will be a change i mean i think ppl are actually dumb enough i think to fix thier own problems without even knowing it ......that is PPL ( not the individual that is working their ass off,behind the scene to make it all happen) i mean i am a dumb american and do not underestiamte it either lol

all is a pipe dream of course

[catdaddy]

As roc so eloquently stated, there must be a revolution.

I submit that it has already started, in fact it started decades ago.

It's just that the atrocities imposed on us have always been just a LITTLE bit less than enough to kick off an armed attack on DC.

Which, BTW, would solve nothing, and just get a lot of us killed.

It will be slow, but it must be done in this fashion:

GET INVOLVED. Talk to like-minded individuals about what's happening. Join local grass-roots organisations. Start a chapter in your town if necessary.

Seek out quality candidates and support them. Here let me insert a reminder- this accumulated imposition on our liberties has been instituted by BOTH parties... and since the two-party system is not likely to fade soon, each candidate must be examined for who THEY are...

I could go on, but you get the idea.

While you're doing this, prepare for the worst. While you can, prepare to feed, clothe, and protect your family and friends. CAREFUL social networking will be beneficial to some, maybe all of us.

Again you get the idea.

And last, but not least- be prepared to help a friend or neighbor. They may have your back tomorrow.

We CAN restore America to a place of liberty, limited government, and prosperity. But it took time to get here, and it will take time and diligence to get back to common sense and freedom.

Let's hope it's not too late. Let's start NOW!

[Hippie3]

We CAN restore America to a place of liberty, limited government, and prosperity. But it took time to get here, and it will take time and diligence to get back to common sense and freedom.

Let's hope it's not too late. Let's start NOW!

no offense intended
but man
you sound
a lot like a politician .

[catdaddy]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

no offense intended
but man
you sound
a lot like a politician .

You haven't figgered that out until NOW?

Truthfully, getting involved is VERY hard for me, because I see being publicly active as a dangerous position for a man like me- as likely to be one of the militant as not...

But I'm willing to try non-violent revolution first, along with my personal rebellious activities, which I shall keep close to the vest...

[eatyualive]

off a canadian website.

Many observers think that “prosperity is around the corner” and that this recession, like others since World War II, will end as soon as the stock market, as a leading indicator, recovers and people start spending again. This is a myopic view of the current economic big picture.
In fact, since the peak of the housing bubble (in the U.S.) in 2005, the onslaught of the subprime financial crisis in August 2007 and the beginning of the recession in December 2007, the U. S. economy, and to a certain extent, the world economy, have entered a period of protracted adjustments. For sure, there will be some quarters of positive economic growth ahead and the recession may be declared officially over in the coming months, but the radical economic reorganization that is taking place will go on for years to come.
Why is this so?
Essentially, because we are at the very end of the 60-year inflation-disinflation-deflation Kondratieff cycle that began in 1949 when war-frozen prices were liberalized; and that powerful long cycle is ending now. The post 1980s era, i.e. the Reagan era, is over, but the excesses and bubbles of the last few decades have to be corrected, at a time when large population shifts are about to take place. Such adjustments will take years to unfold and this will entail a lot of efforts and a lot of changes.
Indeed, the era of excessive spending and of excessive debt is over. The era of excessive government economic disengagement and of financial deregulation is over. The era of irresponsible Ponzi-scheme finance is over. The era of unregulated derivatives is over. The era of greed as an ideology is over. The era of wild and predatory capitalism is over. The era of cheap oil, of cheap transportation, of cheap commodities and of cheap food is over. The era of excessive concentration of wealth and income is also over. However, the age of political corruption, of incompetent politicians and of destructive wars of aggression is not over. What has arrived is the age of hyperstagflation.
The central driving force behind most of these developments, besides the collapse of the financial sector, the debt pyramid and the derivative products structure, and irresponsible talk of larger wars by loose cannon politicians (as if there were not enough problems!) is going to be demographic. Indeed, we have entered a period during which the largest demographic cohort in the history of mankind, the post Word War II baby-boomer generation, has passed its spending peak. This is not something that can be reversed overnight. This is going to be a decade-long process of adjustment, of less spending, of more saving, and above all, of paying off excessive debt loads. Let's keep in mind that consumer spending represents 70 percent of GDP.
The economic consequences are going to be profound and will affect all sectors of the economy. We only have to consider how the automobile industry, once a major engine of economic growth, is presently going through a fundamental reorganization and downsizing. Even computer-based industries have matured and cannot anymore be considered fast growing industries. The only growth sectors left in the U.S. seem to be the health services industry, as the population is aging, and the war-related industries, as the U.S. military-industrial complex keeps on expanding. But even those sectors will have to slow down; lest they bankrupt the entire economy.
That's why I think these industrial and demographic trends herald a period of slower economic growth that could last many years. Governments better wake up to the challenges that such a slow growth environment entails. Very few people are prepared for such a prolonged period of economic stagnation that will be accompanied by forced debt liquidation, in a deflationary environment. This is particularly true of private pension plans that will have trouble paying pensions to recipients in the coming years. This is also true for employment that will expand at a slower pace than the working population, at least for a while, resulting in a rise in the level of unemployment.
Baby-boomers are those individuals who were born between 1946 and 1966. Because of its sheer size (more than 70 million people in the U.S.), this generation has been dominant in all spheres of life for the last fifty years. But now, it has passed its spending peak. This occurred in 2005-06, at the very top of the housing bubble. The average age of the baby-boomer demographic cohort was then 50, which is the age of top spending. At that time, the U.S. personal savings rate fell to a whopping minus 2.5 percent per year. As a comparison, it was 12.5 percent during the 1981-82 recession and it has now rebounded a phenomenal 5.7 percent in April 2009, and it's climbing fast.
Indeed, the end of the housing bubble, the financial crisis, and the economic recession altogether have sent a clear signal to Baby Boomers. You'd better begin saving soon, or your retirement will have to be postponed. And saving means consuming and spending less, while paying up debts, in order to boost net current personal assets to a level that could sustain retirement needs. But if the largest cohort of consumers cuts down on its spending and borrowing, what does it mean for aggregate spending and economic growth? It can only mean slower overall economic growth and some painful economic adjustments. Therefore, there is a high probability that this recession will be a super one that may linger on for years, being interrupted by short-run upside bursts, but soon being followed by a return of stagnant conditions. In Japan, in the nineteen-nineties, a similar financially and demographically induced recession lingered on for an entire decade. And even after twenty years, it cannot be said that Japan is out of the woods yet.
In the short run, in order to counteract the effects of the financial crisis and to fight the current recession that began officially in December 2007 (according to the National Bureau of Economic Research- NBER), the Obama administration has devised a three-quarter billion dollar stimulus plan and has let the fiscal deficit explode to more than two trillion dollars a year because of its bail-out of the troubled banks. Similarly, the Fed has lowered short-term rates to zero and has purchased billions of dollars in long-term Treasury securities, in government agency securities, and even in mortgage-backed securities, in a desperate effort to save large financial institutions such as AIG, Fannie and Freddie, and other American financial institutions from imploding. But now bond investors, especially international investors, are selling Treasury bonds and are pushing long-term interest rates up and the U.S. dollar down as inflation fears increase, even though paradoxically the collapse of the pyramid of debts creates a deflationary environment for the entire economy.
The danger here is that bond investors will be selling Treasury bonds faster than the Fed can buy them. In which case, there will be a downward spiral in bond prices as inflation and solvency fears are exacerbated. In a word, if the Fed does not tone down its current policy of excessive monetizing of public and private debts and its obvious 'benign neglect' policy toward the dollar, high inflation and possibly even hyperinflation become a possibility down the road. This has happened elsewhere in the past and there is no reason why it could not happen again, especially if the U.S. keeps getting involved in costly wars abroad, paying those adventures with money it does not have.
For now, a quick resurgence of inflation is only a remote possibility. This is nevertheless a possibility, considering that central banks have a tendency to overdo the printing of fiat money. In fact, if governements attempt to print their way out of the coming structural demographic problem, they will end up generating an hyperstagflation. In a nutshell, this is what the huge international dollar-denominated bond market sees and fears, at a time when it has to absorb a huge supply of new bond issues. In reality, the bond market will always win against any central bank, any time. The solvency woes and the likely default of the state of California on its outstanding debt will only add to the anxiety.
A few weeks ago, I warned against the risk of future long term interest rates hikes and future U.S. dollar depreciation following the decisions by the U.S. Treasury and by the Fed to flood the markets with trillions of dollars of new Treasury bond issues and with newly printed money. The undertow is coming even faster than I thought. Only when the markets expect relative economic stagnation and a lasting deflationary environment will long term interest rates taper off.
Brace yourself and hold on to your britches. There is a rough economic decade ahead.

i think hes got it right about less spending, more saving. but right now. seems our government has increased spending tenfold. while expanding the government the most in the last 4 years than any other government we have had in history. the top is getting way too big. this building is gonna fall.

[eatyualive]

ive heard the idea that companies that are accepting these iou's are saying we will accept 40 percent of your dollar. i think the state issues them at 3.5 percent or something close to that. either way, the taxpayer takes the sharp end of the sword on that deal. whats to say that cali will be able to pay this back when they say they will. and thats not changing the minds of the bank big wigs...

cali's budget issues are not a quick fix.

off cnn

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Californians have fewer places to redeem IOUs issued by the cash-strapped state.
At least three major banks, Wells Fargo (WFC, Fortune 500), JPMorgan Chase (JPM, Fortune 500) and Bank of America (BAC, Fortune 500), stopped accepting the IOUs after Friday.
More than 60 credit unions, however, continue to accept the paper.
State Controller John Chiang started issuing the IOUs on July 2 to conserve cash, while lawmakers and Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger tussle over closing a $26 billion budget gap. Friday also marked the start of a mandatory third furlough day for most state employees.
The state, the world's eighth largest economy, has issued more than 90,000 IOUs worth nearly $355 million. Also called registered warrants, the IOUs pay an interest rate of 3.75% and can be redeemed on Oct. 2 or earlier if divided state officials reach a budget deal.
Recipients will include state contractors, social service agencies and those owed income tax refunds.
Banks will work with customers on an individual basis to assist them, perhaps offering them home equity lines or short-term loans, said Beth Mills, spokeswoman for the California Bankers Association. But the institutions are also hoping to send a message to Sacramento.
"What's ultimately in the best interest of everyone will be for the state to act quickly and resolve the budget impasse," she said.
Bank of America's decision stems from its experience in 1992, the last time the state issued IOUs amid a financial crisis. The bank, along with Wells Fargo, were among the first to stop accepting the IOUs. A budget was signed about a month later.
"The longer the registered warrants were accepted, the longer it took the legislature to resolve the matter," said Britney Sheehan, a Bank of America spokeswoman. "We do not want our acceptance of registered warrants to deter the state from reaching a budget agreement as soon as possible."
Customers at participating credit unions can continue to redeem the IOUs. The institutions are bracing for a crush of people looking to turn the warrants into cash.
0:00 /2:26States face budget disasters
"There are options," said Daniel Penrod, senior industry analyst at the California Credit Union League. "If people look for those options, they'll realize they are not stuck past the July 10 deadline."
IOUs to be regulated
Some people actually want to get their hands on the registered warrants, posting ads on online marketplaces such as Craigslist. Several postings offer to buy the paper for 85 cents on the dollar, while another listing is looking to sell the IOUs for 95 cents.
This practice, however, has heightened fears that desperate IOU holders might be taken advantage of and that counterfeiters might make copies of the warrants.
State Treasurer Bill Lockyer last week said that warrant buyers must obtain a notarized bill of sale from the recipient when purchasing the IOUs. This will help ensure that the person redeeming the IOUs is the legitimate owner, said Bill Dresslar, Lockyer's spokesman.
The Securities and Exchange Commission on Thursday said that the IOUs are securities and are subject to federal anti-fraud provisions. The agency also issued an investor alert warning both buyers and sellers to be careful when trading the warrants.
"If you hold an IOU and wish to sell it prior to maturity you should consider whether you think you are getting a fair price," the alert said. Investors who wish to buy IOUs should also understand who the seller is. If you are buying from a third party, ask if the person is registered to do this business.
The SEC's action has both positive and negative impacts on IOU recipients, experts said.
It should cut down on scams because the warrants would have to be traded through registered brokers, said Joseph Fichera, who heads Saber Partners, a financial consulting firm for governments and corporations. Sellers would have to provide disclosure and make sure they are marketing the products properly.
This, however, would also make it harder to offload the IOUs, which could frustrate recipients in need of cash.
"The SEC is trying to provide some sort of framework for investor protection in the middle of uncharted territory," Fichera said.

[TVCasualty]

So with the surge in gov't spending happening at the same time they're adding mandatory furlough days for gov't employees, I'm thinking it might be a secret plan to save money without being criticized for cutting program budgets; allocate funds to various entitlement programs to make constituents happy but then make the employees who disburse those funds take a gradually increasing number of furlough days until they finally are told to not show up at all.

It's brilliant: The money is there (well, not really) and we promised to give it to you, but I'm afraid everyone's on furlough so there's no one at the office to write you a check; please try again later (say around February of 2013...).

[eatyualive]

look a new record. this ones not a good one either.

off bloomberg.

July 13 (Bloomberg) -- The U.S. budget deficit topped $1 trillion for the first nine months of the fiscal year and broke a monthly record for June as the recession subtracted from revenue and the government spent to rejuvenate the economy.
The shortfall for the fiscal year that began Oct. 1 totaled $1.1 trillion, the first time that the gap for the period surpassed $1 trillion, Treasury figures showed today in Washington. The excess of spending over revenue for June was $94.3 billion, the first deficit for that month since 1991, according to data compiled by Bloomberg.
Individual and corporate tax receipts are sliding even as the worst recession in five decades shows signs of easing because the jobless rate continues to rise -- reaching a 26-year high in June -- and companies have yet to see a sustained increase in demand. The shortfall is also widening as the government ramps up spending from the $787 billion stimulus program President Barack Obama signed into law in February.
“This is a difficult pill to have to swallow,” said Richard Yamarone, director of economic research at Argus Research Corp. in New York. “The economy and banking system need these funds to recover, yet it will ultimately hit Americans’ wallets hard. It’s a necessary evil.”
Treasuries Drop
Treasuries fell to their lows of the day after the figures, with yields on benchmark 10-year notes rising to 3.35 percent at 3:29 p.m. in New York from 3.30 percent late yesterday.
Economists surveyed by Bloomberg News forecast a June deficit of $97 billion, according to the median of 30 estimates. Projections ranged from deficits of $109.3 billion to $70 billion.
The June deficit compares with a surplus of $33.5 billion in the same month a year earlier. Spending last month surged 37 percent to $309.7 billion and revenue fell 17 percent to $215.4 billion, the Treasury said.
The Congressional Budget Office estimates the federal budget shortfall for the first nine months of the fiscal year was also $1.1 trillion, while saying the budget deficit for June was $97 billion. For the fiscal year that ends Sept. 30, the Office of Management and Budget forecasts the deficit to reach a record $1.841 trillion, more than four times the previous fiscal year’s $459 billion shortfall.
For the fiscal year to date, the interest expense on the government’s outstanding debt was $320.7 billion, according to Treasury data released July 7. Total public debt outstanding exceeds $11.5 trillion, according to the Treasury’s July 9 statement on the government’s cash balance.
Tax Receipts
Corporate tax receipts totaled $101.9 billion through June versus $236.5 billion, a decline of 57 percent, the Treasury’s budget statement said today. Individual income tax collections were down 22 percent so far this fiscal year to $685.5 billion compared with $877.8 billion in the year-earlier period.
In other categories, spending by the Social Security Administration rose to $544.7 billion from $491.7 billion for the fiscal year to date; spending by the Department of Health and Human Services, which administers the Medicare and Medicaid health programs, rose to $588.7 billion from $520.4 billion and spending by the Defense Department rose to $472.8 billion from $439.5 billion, Treasury said today.
The Treasury also said that for the fiscal year to date it has spent $147.2 billion on the financial rescue plan called the Troubled Asset Relief Program, and $84.9 billion to purchase mortgage debt from government-sponsored enterprises including Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, now in government conservatorship.
Geithner Letter
U.S. Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner said in a letter to Senator Judd Gregg last month that $70.1 billion in repayments from 32 banks that received government funds indicate financial firms are healing.
The banks have paid back funds from the $700 billion TARP program, enacted last year. Participating financial firms also have paid $5.2 billion in dividends to the U.S. government, Geithner said in the letter, dated June 30 and released July 7.
The economy has lost 6.5 million jobs since the recession started in December 2007, and gross domestic product contracted at a 5.5 percent annual rate in the first quarter, the third consecutive quarterly decline.
Growth will average 1.5 percent in the July-to-December period, compared with last month’s 1.2 percent projection, according to the median of 57 forecasts in a Bloomberg survey taken from July 2 to July 8. The jobless rate will exceed 10 percent early next year and average 9.8 percent for 2010, the survey said.
Obama Stimulus
The stimulus plan Obama signed in February is designed to preserve or create millions of jobs. The administration also has committed funds to help the automotive and banking industries, taking a major stake in bankrupt automaker General Motors Corp. and interests in a variety of financial firms including Bank of America Corp. and Citigroup Inc.
The government has paid about $29 billion from the stimulus to state and local governments, the Government Accountability Office said in a report obtained by Bloomberg News. Most of that is allocated for health care and education and it makes up about 60 percent of the stimulus funding states and local governments will get for fiscal 2009, congressional auditors said.
The Treasury is increasing auctions of securities to finance the government’s spending. After more than doubling Treasury note and bond offerings to $963 billion in the first half, another $1.1 trillion may be sold by year-end, according to Barclays Plc. The second-half sales would be more than the total amount of debt sold in all of last year.
Message for China
Geithner has sought to reassure China, the largest foreign holder of Treasuries, that its investments are safe, while also seeking to reassure U.S. voters that the government has a plan to get its debt under control.
“If we don’t convince the American public and investors around the world we have the will to do that, then we will face the risk that interest rates rise, they choke off incipient recovery, and we’re left with higher unemployment, lower private investment, for a longer period of time,” he said in a June 18 interview on “The News Hour with Jim Lehrer”.

[Hippie3]

damn.

[finite_synapses]

I feel like the US government is undermining the prosperity of the USA in the guise of help, but I honestly don't understand why this shit is happening. If they're just doing this all as a get-rich-quick scheme in the guise of help, wouldn't more people be able to see it? I mean, are we all blind, or does no one give a shit, or what?

I'm wondering, we all know that fossil fuel reserves are depleting, right? So why are people so vehemently against renewable resources? Because they cost a shitton? Because everyone should wait until the fossil fuels we have start to REALLY dry up? I mean, if something isn't done, there WILL be a point where humanity has to decide, as a whole, whether it wants to live off the grid...

here's my mandate
Mankind needs to invest in any form of renewable energy research and or propagation before we run out of the reserves we have. This is apparent. Oil and coal reserves are both rapidly declining. It does not matter when they run out, be it 20 years or 50 years or 100 years. What does matter is that humanity must have the measures put in place to replace the lost output from non-renewable resources with renewable resources. The decline of fossil fuels will be gradual, yet humanity is constantly in demand of increasingly more fossil fuels, so as we keep tapping into these reserves whilst discovering more, we are just feeding a constantly growing, giant, insatiable beast with shit we can't get back. In order for society as we know it to function, we need to make sure that we will consistently have electricity. If we invest in actually developing and discovering energy sources, we will not have to worry about what's on the horizon. Simply developing and discovering new fossil fuel prospects is not a logical step. Although it is big source of revenue, that revenue will dry up. Without revenue, no one's doing shit.

Oil companies are investing in alternative resources because they're not completely fucking stupid. When a company is dealing with limited resources, they are bound to either dissolve or diversify. To spend part of the company's revenue on propagation and research of renewable resources seems to be a sound investment. If a piece of machinery cost $1000 to make and created $2000 worth of shit out of thin air, would it not be a wise investment? If you had proprietary rights to the next big electrical innovation, would it not be a wise investment? Besides, maybe they think they will get a better PR...

Economic collapse would be imminent without proper procedures in place for society to continue along without interruptions. I guarantee i will see one of three things come from the energy industry in my lifetime:
1. Societal collapse
2. Massive technological innovations
3. Green energy
Green energy seems the most probable. Hell, maybe fusion will truly be developed, but it's still got some nasty side-products just as nuclear does. People like to be told they're not fucking their home up, so green energy goes down more smoothly with everyone. If we continue along the current path indefinitely, non-renewable costs will be much much higher than that of renewables by demand alone.

Why not start investing now, unless you believe it to be a huge waste of money? Technology is ever-advancing, and in the renewables department, they need all the help they can get. However, helping them make breakthroughs (and get rich on the side) is what may very well keep us afloat as a whole. I honestly don't think the level of humanity's societal advancement is great enough to keep us ahead of the game at these levels. I mean, if everything goes along as it is, and we reach the tipping point in terms of energy consumption, what's going to happen? Someone's going to have to pay, that's what. Whether it's the poor or the Middle East or everyone, someone will be incapable of continuing life as they had been doing. Would it not be in the vested interests of the people as a whole to continue advancing the human species? I guess you could be like, "fuck 'em" but what if you're one of them? It's the WHAT IF scenario, dammit.

Just as rising CO2 levels is a what if scenario... i honestly don't know what to think about CO2 emissions... I mean, it's mostly all been in the atmosphere before, right? Billowing out of volcanoes and settling back into the ground... no one knows how much that shit affects the global warming/cooling cycle, only that more of it has been around at certain times.

I honestly think the world is going to end in some insanely spectacular event, not some vast societal collapse(although that would be quite insane in and of itself).

[eatyualive]

Originally Posted by finite_synapses

I feel like the US government is undermining the prosperity of the USA in the guise of help, but I honestly don't understand why this shit is happening. If they're just doing this all as a get-rich-quick scheme in the guise of help, wouldn't more people be able to see it? I mean, are we all blind, or does no one give a shit, or what?

I'm wondering, we all know that fossil fuel reserves are depleting, right? So why are people so vehemently against renewable resources? Because they cost a shitton? Because everyone should wait until the fossil fuels we have start to REALLY dry up? I mean, if something isn't done, there WILL be a point where humanity has to decide, as a whole, whether it wants to live off the grid...

here's my mandate
Mankind needs to invest in any form of renewable energy research and or propagation before we run out of the reserves we have. This is apparent. Oil and coal reserves are both rapidly declining. It does not matter when they run out, be it 20 years or 50 years or 100 years. What does matter is that humanity must have the measures put in place to replace the lost output from non-renewable resources with renewable resources. The decline of fossil fuels will be gradual, yet humanity is constantly in demand of increasingly more fossil fuels, so as we keep tapping into these reserves whilst discovering more, we are just feeding a constantly growing, giant, insatiable beast with shit we can't get back. In order for society as we know it to function, we need to make sure that we will consistently have electricity. If we invest in actually developing and discovering energy sources, we will not have to worry about what's on the horizon. Simply developing and discovering new fossil fuel prospects is not a logical step. Although it is big source of revenue, that revenue will dry up. Without revenue, no one's doing shit.

Oil companies are investing in alternative resources because they're not completely fucking stupid. When a company is dealing with limited resources, they are bound to either dissolve or diversify. To spend part of the company's revenue on propagation and research of renewable resources seems to be a sound investment. If a piece of machinery cost $1000 to make and created $2000 worth of shit out of thin air, would it not be a wise investment? If you had proprietary rights to the next big electrical innovation, would it not be a wise investment? Besides, maybe they think they will get a better PR...

Economic collapse would be imminent without proper procedures in place for society to continue along without interruptions. I guarantee i will see one of three things come from the energy industry in my lifetime:
1. Societal collapse
2. Massive technological innovations
3. Green energy
Green energy seems the most probable. Hell, maybe fusion will truly be developed, but it's still got some nasty side-products just as nuclear does. People like to be told they're not fucking their home up, so green energy goes down more smoothly with everyone. If we continue along the current path indefinitely, non-renewable costs will be much much higher than that of renewables by demand alone.

Why not start investing now, unless you believe it to be a huge waste of money? Technology is ever-advancing, and in the renewables department, they need all the help they can get. However, helping them make breakthroughs (and get rich on the side) is what may very well keep us afloat as a whole. I honestly don't think the level of humanity's societal advancement is great enough to keep us ahead of the game at these levels. I mean, if everything goes along as it is, and we reach the tipping point in terms of energy consumption, what's going to happen? Someone's going to have to pay, that's what. Whether it's the poor or the Middle East or everyone, someone will be incapable of continuing life as they had been doing. Would it not be in the vested interests of the people as a whole to continue advancing the human species? I guess you could be like, "fuck 'em" but what if you're one of them? It's the WHAT IF scenario, dammit.

Just as rising CO2 levels is a what if scenario... i honestly don't know what to think about CO2 emissions... I mean, it's mostly all been in the atmosphere before, right? Billowing out of volcanoes and settling back into the ground... no one knows how much that shit affects the global warming/cooling cycle, only that more of it has been around at certain times.

I honestly think the world is going to end in some insanely spectacular event, not some vast societal collapse(although that would be quite insane in and of itself).

i do hope we move to green energy and that it is not exploited like oil.

i doubt it. and hopefully we can move to it without bankrupting the country any further. i don't think china wants to foot the bill for us to rebuild our energy structure.

green energy combined with the speed of the internet could be a very powerful tool. seems like all the jobs are gonna be headed in that direction in the near future.

[eatyualive]

JPMorgan Profits From Investment Bank; Defaults Rise

July 16 (Bloomberg) -- JPMorgan Chase & Co., the second- largest U.S. bank, said profit rose for the first time since 2007 on record investment-banking fees. Chief Executive Officer Jamie Dimon predicted more losses on consumer loans.
Second-quarter earnings increased to $2.7 billion, or 28 cents a share, from $2 billion a year earlier, the New York- based bank said today in a statement. The average estimate of 14 analysts surveyed by Bloomberg was 5 cents a share, including costs to repay government bailout funds and an assessment by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp.
Investment-banking revenue from trading and stock and bond underwriting is helping offset rising defaults on consumer loans, such as mortgages and credit cards. Dimon said he doesn’t expect the card business to make a profit this year or in 2010, and the company increased its loss projections for prime and subprime mortgages.
“The credit problems, although they have stabilized, we’re still not out of the woods,” said Gerard Cassidy, a banking analyst at RBC Capital Markets in Portland, Maine, in a Bloomberg Radio interview. “For JPMorgan Chase, the challenge going forward is going to continue to be deterioration of credit.”
JPMorgan fell 37 cents to $35.89 at 11 a.m. in New York Stock Exchange composite trading, paring its gain for the year to 14 percent.
Net Revenue
The firm’s total net revenue was a record $27.7 billion on a managed basis, which compares with $19.7 billion in last year’s second-quarter. The return on common equity fell to 3 percent, which includes a charge for repaying government money. That figure would have been 6 percent excluding the TARP charge, unchanged from the previous year’s period.
JPMorgan’s retail bank posted income of $15 million as home-equity and prime mortgage defaults continued to rise. Home- equity charge-offs climbed to $1.3 billion, or 4.61 percent. Prime mortgage defaults were $481 million, or 3.07 percent, versus $104 million, or 1.08 percent a year earlier.
Credit cards lost $672 million, compared with income of $250 million in the second-quarter last year. The managed charge-off rate, which generally tracks unemployment, climbed to 10.03 percent, from 7.72 percent in the first quarter and 4.98 percent in the year-earlier period, according to the statement.
JPMorgan said losses in its Chase credit-card portfolio may be 10 percent next quarter and will be “highly dependent” on unemployment after that. Losses for cards issued by Washington Mutual, which the bank acquired in September of 2008, may reach 24 percent by the end of the year, the company said.
Credit Losses
The lender boosted its loan loss reserve to $2 billion in the quarter, adding to the $28 billion set aside to cover credit losses as of March 31. Tier 1 capital, a gauge of the bank’s ability to withstand losses, climbed to 9.7 percent from 9.3 percent in the first quarter.
JPMorgan said prime mortgage losses may be $600 million “over the next several quarters,” and subprime losses may be $500 million. Its guidance for home-equity loan losses remained the same at $1.4 billion.
Dimon, 53, said the firm supported “proper consumer protection” and that pending legislation setting up an agency to monitor consumer lending practices would hurt short-term profits in credit cards.
“There should be less regulatory agencies and not more” to avoid unnecessary bureaucracy, Dimon said on a call with analysts.
Investment Bank
The investment bank generated $1.47 billion of profit, almost quadruple the amount earned in last year’s second- quarter, as fees from underwriting stock and bond deals and fixed-income trading boosted results.
This was the first time since the beginning of the credit crisis in 2007 that JPMorgan didn’t take writedowns on its leveraged loans, Chief Financial Officer Michael Cavanagh said. The bank had “modestly positive” gains in the second quarter, net of hedges.
JPMorgan now holds loans with a market value of $3.3 billion, down from $43 billion in September 2007, including loans acquired from failed investment bank Bear Stearns Cos.
The bank ranks No. 1 in underwriting stocks globally and in managing bonds sold in the U.S., according to data compiled by Bloomberg.
Goldman Sachs Group Inc. said July 14 it made $3.44 billion in the quarter on record revenue from trading and underwriting stock. Revenue in the three months ended June 26 was $13.8 billion, up from $9.43 billion in the first quarter and $9.42 billion in the second quarter a year earlier.
Asset Management
Profit at JPMorgan’s asset-management unit fell 11 percent to $352 million, while treasury and securities services posted income of $379 million, 11 percent less than the previous year. The commercial banking unit had income of $368 million, a 4 percent increase from last year’s quarter.
The bank is the largest to repay government cash under the Troubled Asset Relief Program, freeing it from compensation and other government restrictions. JPMorgan returned $25 billion in government funds last month, and paid more than $795 million to the U.S. in dividends, according to a June 17 statement. The TARP repayment accounted for 27 cents a share, or $1.1 billion, the bank said today.
JPMorgan paid the FDIC a special assessment of $675 million in the quarter, resulting in a cost of 10 cents a share, as the agency asks banks to help replenish its cash reserves. The fund fell to $13 billion in the first quarter, the lowest since September 1993, after 53 lenders failed far this year.
Bank of America Corp., the biggest U.S. bank by assets, and No. 3 Citigroup Inc. are scheduled to release their latest results tomorrow. Wells Fargo & Co. and Morgan Stanley will announce earnings July 22.
To contact the reporter on this story: Elizabeth Hester in New York at ehester@bloomberg.net.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=abBPprdzCGg8

[eatyualive]

July 16 (Bloomberg) -- China overtook Japan as the world’s second-largest stock market by value for the first time in 18 months, after government stimulus spending and record bank lending boosted share prices this year.
The Shanghai Composite Index rose 1.4 percent yesterday, sending the value of China’s domestic stock market to $3.21 trillion, compared with Japan’s $3.20 trillion, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. The Shanghai index has gained 75 percent this year, the best-performing major market, against a 5.5 percent advance in the Nikkei 225 Stock Average. The U.S. has the biggest equities market worth $10.8 trillion.
“China is just entering its stride and is still very much in a growth phase, while Japan is already a developed economy,” said Daphne Roth, Singapore-based head of Asian equity research at ABN Amro Private Banking, which oversees about $14 billion.
China last surpassed Japan in stock-market capitalization from Jan. 4 to Jan. 24, 2008, data compiled by Bloomberg show. The Shanghai Composite tripled in the two years leading to its record on Oct. 16, 2007, before tumbling 72 percent to its trough the following November.
The Shanghai Composite fell 0.2 to 3,183.74 at the close, while the Nikkei 225 advanced 0.8 percent to 9,344.16.
Government Stimulus
A government-led 4 trillion yuan ($585 billion) stimulus package and record bank lending has shielded the Chinese economy against a plunge in exports. Foreign-exchange reserves topped $2 trillion for the first time, while money supply rose a record 28.5 percent in June, the central bank said July 15. The economy expanded 7.9 percent in the second quarter, the statistics bureau said in Beijing today, more than the 7.8 percent median estimate of 20 economists surveyed by Bloomberg News.
New loans rose fivefold in June from a year earlier to 1.53 trillion yuan, increasing concern that attempts to revive the world’s third-largest economy will lead to bad debts and asset bubbles. Rapid credit growth poses risks for lenders and the financial system, Wang Huaqing, the disciplinary secretary of the China Banking Regulatory Commission, said on July 7.
BNP Paribas Securities (Asia) Ltd. last month cut its rating on China to “neutral” from “overweight,” citing valuations. Stocks on the benchmark index are trading at 33.2 times earnings, almost triple the 12.9 multiple on Nov. 4, when the measure dropped to its lowest since the financial crisis. Earnings per share declined 7 percent last year and will probably remain “flat” this year, the brokerage said.
Overvalued
“We share concerns that the corporate earnings recovery is not going to be very strong,” Erwin Sanft, head of China and Hong Kong equities research at BNP Paribas said in an interview with Bloomberg Television today. Some Chinese shares have soared by “1,000 percent from the bottom, so they’re pricing in a very strong rebound in earnings,” he said.
In Japan, nagging deflation and an aging population have sapped strength from what was once the world’s largest market by capitalization. During the 1990s, Japan spent 135 trillion yen on 10 economic stimulus plans and lowered interest rates to zero, none of which succeeded in promoting sustainable growth.
Japan’s economy shrank at a 14.2 percent annual rate in the first quarter, the most since data began in 1955. The country’s gross domestic output will shrink 3.4 percent in the year ending March 2010, the central bank predicted. The contraction coincided with a drop to a more-than 25-year low by the Topix index.
Japan’s Problems
“Japan has two main problems; the enormous public debt handicaps the government’s ability to spend additional money to boost the economy and we are too reliant on exports,” said Takashi Kamiya, chief economist at T&D Asset Management Co. in Tokyo, which helps oversee some $16 billion. “There’s no way to expect the emergence of a domestic growth driver that can propel us out of this funk.”
Chinese companies account for four of the 10 biggest companies when measured by market value, according to Bloomberg data. Toyota Motor Corp. is the top-ranked Japanese company, at 25th, worth about one third the capitalization of PetroChina Co., the world No. 1.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=a_84o9PPPGqk

Economy in China Regains Robust Pace of Growth


SHANGHAI — Fueled by an ambitious economic stimulus program and aggressive bank lending, China’s economy grew by 7.9 percent in the second quarter of this year, the government said Thursday, a surprisingly strong showing given the world economic crisis.
The gross domestic product figures, released Thursday morning in Beijing by the National Statistics Bureau, are also surprising given how China’s exports have declined sharply after years of torrid growth.
Late last year, Beijing set a target growth rate of about 8 percent in 2009, though many analysts doubted it was possible, and the country seems to be accelerating toward that pace, particularly in the past few months. That level of growth was seen by many analysts and policy makers as vital to helping maintain social stability in the country.
The robust growth in China’s economy came as the United States and several other leading economies remain mired in recession, hobbled by the aftereffects of bad lending, weak real estate markets, and the uneven results of economic stimulus packages.
In China, strong auto and housing sales, a soaring stock market and solid retail sales have helped renew confidence here.
"It’s very encouraging, the 8 percent growth target is in sight," Daniel Soh, an economist at Forecast in Singapore, told Reuters.
"It’s by now clear that the fiscal stimulus package has offset the contraction in export activity,” he said.
Some analysts, however, have warned that China’s growth also holds serious risks because of an explosion of bank lending that could eventually lead to non-performing loans, overly aggressive infrastructure spending that could be wasteful, and policies that do not favor private businesses.
Still, the strong second-quarter showing, which makes China one of the few major economies in the world with spectacular growth, indicates that China is recovering well, after its gross domestic product rose 6.1 percent in the first quarter of the year.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/17/bu...1&ref=business

looks like their economy is stabilizing. and they have the highest reserves in the world. 1 trillion or something. as we are in debt 1 trillion and now this healthcare talk is about costing us 1 trillion more. we will be double in debt what we are now if that passes. imagine that. look at how it is now. imagine double debt.


sorry lots of news today. i just read something on financial times about the california iou's being traded now. damnit....


will we ever learn?

California IOUs set for trade



A market is set to emerge this week in Californian IOUs as the persistence of the state’s budget crisis is making it increasingly difficult to exchange these emergency instruments for cash.

California is printing $3bn of IOUs for businesses, individual taxpayers and local counties in lieu of cash. It has sent more than $450m of them to court-appointed attorneys, county-run health schemes and taxpayers awaiting rebates, among others.

[catdaddy]

In order to "remake" America, it will be necessary to drive it to it's economic knees.

This has been a goal of the Progressive movement for DECADES.

When you are hungry, you will accept Socialism in any form-

Followed by Communism, when it becomes necessary to enforce Socialism at gunpoint.

History repeats itself.

We were warned.

[TVCasualty]

What works for California works for me, so I'm going to send my mortgage company an IOU for next month's payment. Oh hell, it seems that what works for California gets me foreclosed on...

It's infuriating that a State can follow it's own rules (such as IOU's being acceptable as payment), but the people who work for the State have to follow a different set (the grocery store sure as hell won't accept them in exchange for food).

So, I work my 40 hours according to the rules, get "paid" in promises according to a different set of rules, but then I need to pay my debts with actual money, not promises, as is expected under the first set of rules. But it gets better; many are offered less than the face value of their IOUs due to their risk, so not only are the State employees not getting paid in real money, they're taking a de facto pay cut at the same time!

This ain't gonna be pretty if it goes on very much longer.

[cap]

i dunno if i can agree here, (btw, EXCELLENT thread i been folllowing it but have failed to comment because, well, it changes so often and the content is so real-time its not funny. u guys are on ur game here when it comes to the sky fallin. lemme tell ya!
anywho....
we're fucking broke. this country is for shit. best to get out now or hunker down. its gonna be a long 20yrs.
easy.
this thread cant possibly last 20+ yrs, and thats gonna suck bigtime when i have to resort to pbs or the paper for the latest in global markets. my financial times is callin....maybe time to buy some more stock since i cashed out my mutual fund and 401k already this yr my financial woes are the least of worries, lets get back on topic
we have been through so much its scary to think about any more harm being done to us. of course its usually of our own doing, but more often then not, its beyond our control. but i do agree about the hunger part GREAT IDEA! starve us out thatll make everything perfect naw i hear ya but i cant agree that its the right, or the responsible thing to even think about!
also--socialism and fascism, the same?
socialism
fascism
eh...close enough, right!

Originally Posted by catdaddy

In order to "remake" America, it will be necessary to drive it to it's economic knees.

agree. been there. we are on the rise...
turn on cnbc and look for yourself !

This has been a goal of the Progressive movement for DECADES.
When you are hungry, you will accept Socialism in any form-
Followed by Communism, when it becomes necessary to enforce Socialism at gunpoint.
History repeats itself.
We were warned.

were we? when was this? news to me.
perhaps i missed that headline? got a link? bustin balls of course, i think u mean the great depression but in case im wrong, do correct me! you see my point? doesnt matter.
"donald duck is a fascist." -bob weir

[catdaddy]

cap, nice to see ya!

Don't count on any economic recovery any time soon. Either the Cap N Trade bill OR the proposed Nationalised healthcare package is enough to finalise our ruin economically. Not enough energy in me right now to explain how, or in how many ways.

Yes, we HAVE been warned, every single baby step of the way on our path to Socialism, and/or the final dream State of the Progressive Movement.

Sometimes the voices were very few, and always we forget, and/or have that piece of history forgotten...in fact, if it were NOT for my intense interest IN American History, I would, like most Americans, be totally unaware of ANY of it...

But what we see happening today is largely ruse- A path has long been conceived, and the final steps are now being carried out.

It's gonna be an interesting time to be alive, for sure.

Here's a poser for ya- in the Healthcare bill, taxes are raised on many New York residents to (total) levels of near 60%.

What happens? New York begins to empty of higher income families (and in NY, 250K+ is NOT a rich person... Then how do you keep a city full of low-income Gov't dependent people in basic necessities?

MANY seemingly attractive ideas have been legislated into law, and more are coming, that are SO RUINOUS financially, that, along with all the customary PORK, we are WAY past unable to pay- already...

The sad thing is- the really GOOD ideas and principles that liberalism embraces could and SHOULD be implemented- but that's not what's happening here..

What's happening is a power accumulation, the likes of which have occurred MANY times... They control your money, they control your healthcare, they rent you the house you lost due to the real estate bubble burst...

The list goes on. The point is, some of us are still hoping for a better life, and believing the gov't is TRYING to give us that.

Not so. They are trying to consolidate power for themselves, and lying to us like we are stupid children, or worse,

Maybe we are, and it's time to understand the world we live in in MUCH greater detail.

I think it MAY be essential that we do so, and soon.

[Hippie3]

politics.
bah.


i have zero faith in either side,
liberals, conservatives, you name it.
all scoundrels.

my only expectation about the government
is that it will screw me, fast and hard and repeatedly.

reagan was just as bad as obama and vice versa.
so-called heros to their respective sides.
bah.

insurrection is here, now.

[eatyualive]

here is a question. how much does it cost cali to print all these iou's?

maybe if they stopped printing them they might start reaching into that budget deficit.

[Hippie3]

it's ok,
they're paying the printers in I.O.U.s too.

[catdaddy]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

politics.
bah.


i have zero faith in either side,
liberals, conservatives, you name it.
all scoundrels.

my only expectation about the government
is that it will screw me, fast and hard and repeatedly.

reagan was just as bad as obama and vice versa.
so-called heros to their respective sides.
bah.

insurrection is here, now.

It is well not to place faith in politicians, of any ilk.

My point was to outline why there is a last major surge toward a different America, and to point out that this movement- which BTW extends well across Party lines- has been around since the early 1900's- maybe earlier.

It is a different vision of our country than that of the founding Fathers and our constitution, and greatly resembles the ideals of certain other visionaries- all of whom have ended badly, or will eventually, their countries in shambles and abject poverty.

Since the actual outcome of many of the ideals of the Progressive Movement can easily be seen for what they are, failures and slow rot of our liberties, why do they persist?

Over time, small steps don't seem so big, the liberties they removed forgotten by most... so we plow forward.

Also, in any movement, there is always the hope, spoken or not, that the supporters of the movement will end up having power over those they defeated, or at least bragging rights. At the very least they will be "buddies" with those in power, and that alone is what motivates a number of the hangers-on in this movement as they can't be stupid enough to believe they will be exempted from the economic disasters coming.

Since I'm speaking of Hollywood liberals, I have to correct myself- they CAN be that stupid.

As far as insurrection goes, yes it's here. Outbreaks of violence- citizens for liberty against a repressive government- ARE coming.

In our lifetimes, we will see the camps and prisons filled to capacity-

Just as we have seen it before, in Russia, Germany, Cambodia, N. Korea. etc...

Just a clarification- the Progressive Movement is NOT Liberalism, per se- It embraces WHATEVER it must to accomplish it's goals, which IS a totalitarian society, where Gov't takes most if not all of what you have, and gives you what it thinks you need, tells you what to do, when to do it, and how/if you can do it- from breathing to shitting- and it has many variations.

Fascism, Socialism, Communism- the top three.

We have passed through stages of Fascism already; Socialism is coming hard and fast, and when the insurrection becomes violent and the enforcement comes at gunpoint, we will then be a COMMUNIST country.

What we must NOT do- and hip, I know you realize this, is ASSUME that what has happened elsewhere in terms of social upheaval and retaliation just CAN'T happen here.

It WILL, barring a REAL stepdown from proposed changes to our way of life, and although it may be different in some ways from past examples, it will be nonetheless bloody and costly to American Citizens.

As it was/is to the citizens of all those other countries who walked this path.

[Hippie3]

first i think it's pretty much impossible to draw any parallels between radically different nations as you do.
your rhetoric is calculated to hit the right buttons-
you use the buzz words like fascism and communism
linking cambodia to korea
not because the comparisons are accurate
but merely for their emotional impact.
you speak in vague generalities,
never specifics.
mostly it's hyperbole,
again for its' dramatic effect.
lost liberties, prisons over-flowing,
totalitarianism, etc.
you say it's not partisan
but you lay it all at obama's feet,
the new conservative's anti-christ.
i just don't see it in black-and-white,
not so clear and simple.
i'm no flag-waving patriot,
could not care less what the 'founding fathers' thought.
they all died a very long time ago in a different world.
and for the most part
they were just as bad as the regime they overthrew.
they did not bring freedom as promised-
the constitution was always a lie.
i see nothing in them worth returning to, nor preserving.
it's every man for himself- always has been.

[TVCasualty]

Don't underestimate the Hidden Variable!

As Chaos theoreticians have pointed out and numerous experiments and computer models have shown, a rigid imposition of Order necessarily leads to an escalation of Chaos.

That's not necessarily referring to the type of "chaos" associated with civil unrest, it's just a short word for unpredictability.

And whether massive cultural changes are on tap due to the intentions of a particular group or whether they are coming simply as part of the natural flow of cause and effect probably doesn't matter; either way I can safely predict that the future will be unpredictable. We live in a time of unprecedented technopolitical realities. No population has ever had the unquestioning sense of entitlement as Western Culture has developed at this point, so it'll be fascinating to see what happens if someone tries to take away our Blackberries and iPhones and internet access or if they fail on their own due to environmental pressures.

That could spell disaster for many, but it might also open up all the right cracks to slip through for some.

[TVCasualty]

I meant to add an example/prediction of the unpredictable future (aka "a guess"):

China will go the way of the USSR fairly soon. It's close to its internal breaking point, and just as when the USSR lost its grip on it's expanded territories, so will China lose its grip on the various once-foreign nations/territories it's swallowed up (could be great news for the Free Tibet movement). And like in the Baltics and Eastern Europe, as soon as the central power dominating the region evaporated, it was left chock full of military hardware and the power vacuum allowed centuries-old conflicts to reignite into full-blown war.

Now, how the dominoes will fall after China gets the game started is anyone's guess, but it's gonna be big. And we thought AIG was "too big to fail." HA!

Officially, China is made up of 56 nationalities: one majority nationality, the Han, and 55 minority groups. The 2000 census revealed a total official minority population of nearly 104m, or approximately 9% of the total population...

...The supposedly homogenous Han speak eight mutually unintelligible languages. Even these sub-groups show marked linguistic and cultural diversity.

China's policy toward minorities involves official recognition, limited autonomy, and unofficial efforts at control. Although totalling only 9% of the population, they are concentrated in resource-rich areas spanning nearly 60% of the country's landmass and exceed 90% of the population in counties and villages along many border areas of Xinjiang, Tibet, Inner Mongolia, and Yunnan.

Xinjiang occupies one-sixth of China's landmass, with Tibet the second-largest province.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8141867.stm

104 million is a lot of potentially pissed off people, and that is only the official (and no doubt fudged) number.

[catdaddy]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

first i think it's pretty much impossible to draw any parallels between radically different nations as you do.
your rhetoric is calculated to hit the right buttons-
you use the buzz words like fascism and communism
linking cambodia to korea
not because the comparisons are accurate
but merely for their emotional impact.
you speak in vague generalities,
never specifics.
mostly it's hyperbole,
again for its' dramatic effect.
lost liberties, prisons over-flowing,
totalitarianism, etc.
you say it's not partisan
but you lay it all at obama's feet,
the new conservative's anti-christ.
i just don't see it in black-and-white,
not so clear and simple.
i'm no flag-waving patriot,
could not care less what the 'founding fathers' thought.
they all died a very long time ago in a different world.
and for the most part
they were just as bad as the regime they overthrew.
they did not bring freedom as promised-
the constitution was always a lie.
i see nothing in them worth returning to, nor preserving.
it's every man for himself- always has been.

It saddens me that I have failed to express myself well enough to avoid some or all of your premises.

I speak my mind- I don't really care if you or anybody else believes ANY of what I think, nor do I wish to incite emotions in anyone other than the ones that will be invoked as they understand more of what's happening.

Far from laying ALL of this at Obama's feet, I continually refer to steps made and liberties lost in decades and by administrations of the past- of both parties. As far as I am concerned, Obama is merely the poster boy for this movement. He's not writing the legislation, he's not voting it in, he's just the front man. Hell, most legislation is no longer written by legislators even! But this IS today, he IS President, and this last push is happening under his administration.

As far as drawing parallels in other regimes, I believe you also have done so- and if it is accurate, so be it. My points are dealing with what the people end up with as a result of overbearing government, whatever form it may take. Crowded prisons, loss of liberty- all these are a given when citizenry are repressed and begin to rebel against oppression.

Of course I cannot give precise future events, as there will be many differences here as always- this is America, we have always done things a bit differently.

I know you are an Anarchist. I submit that, of all government models I have ever read of or studied, the model of our representative Republic is the closest thing to an Anarchy that allows the average person to live in relative freedom and peace.

It has, unfortunately, been radically butchered, from day one. And that WAS expected, and many of those alterations warned against.

Frankly, I would prefer total anarchy to where we seem to be heading, but I would also prefer our country as designed to total anarchy. I doubt I'll ever see either. (I imagine the colonies just after the Declaration, etc, resembled anarchy in major ways!)

I believe in the smallest government possible, in the most freedom possible. I consider myself a financial conservative, but in every other way, I lean libertarian. Give the people the right to live as they will, as long as they don't injure others. I don't believe our desires related to how we wish to live our lives are very different at all.

I hope that we can keep our current and restore our lost freedoms, but realistically, I don't believe it will happen, and I DO believe there will be civil unrest, and armed conflict.

I'm sorry I have evidently failed to express myself properly, as some of the conclusions you have drawn don't match my intentions at all. Perhaps I should refrain from expressing my opinions if I can do no better than that.

There ARE others here I agree with, that evidently do a better job.

Peace-

Something that may be in short supply in our Brave New World.

[eatyualive]

The Bush administration and Congress discussed the possibility of a breakdown in law and order and the logistics of feeding US citizens if commerce and banking collapsed as a result of last autumn's financial panic, it was disclosed yesterday.
Making his first appearance on Capitol Hill since leaving office, the former Treasury secretary Hank Paulson said it was important at the time not to reveal the extent of officials' concerns, for fear it would "terrify the American people and lead to an even bigger problem".
Mr Paulson testified to the House Oversight Committee on the Bush administration's unpopular $700bn (£426bn) bailout of Wall Street, which was triggered by the failure of Lehman Brothers last September. In the days that followed, a run on some of the safest investment vehicles in the financial markets threatened to make it impossible for people to access their savings.
Paul Kanjorski, a Pennsylvania Democrat, asked Mr Paulson to reveal details of officials' concerns, which were relayed to Congress in hasty conference calls last year. The calls included discussion of law and order and whether it would be possible to feed the American people, and for how long, according to Mr Kanjorski.
"In a world where information can flow, money can move with the speed of light electronically, I looked at the ripple effect, and looked at when a financial system fails, a whole country's economic system can fail," Mr Paulson said. "I believe we could have gone back to the sorts of situations we saw in the Depression. I try not to use hyperbole. It's impossible to prove now since it didn't happen."
The Oversight committee is investigating the takeover of Merrill Lynch by Bank of America, a deal forged in the desperate weekend that Lehman Brothers failed, and which later required government support because of Merrill's spiralling losses.
Mr Paulson defended putting pressure on Bank of America when it had last-minute doubts about the deal in December. Not to have done so could have rekindled the "financial havoc" the bailout had calmed.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bu...r-1750076.html

also this is what biden had to say. just shows how much the people running our country really know. yes we need to spend. but who has money to spend? people can't pay their rent!

Vice President Joe Biden told people attending an AARP town hall meeting that unless the Democrat-supported health care plan becomes law the nation will go bankrupt and that the only way to avoid that fate is for the government to spend more money.

“And folks look, AARP knows and the people with me here today know, the president knows, and I know, that the status quo is simply not acceptable,” Biden said at the event on Thursday in Alexandria, Va. “It’s totally unacceptable. And it’s completely unsustainable. Even if we wanted to keep it the way we have it now. It can’t do it financially.”

“We’re going to go bankrupt as a nation,” Biden said.

“Now, people when I say that look at me and say, ‘What are you talking about, Joe? You’re telling me we have to go spend money to keep from going bankrupt?’” Biden said. “The answer is yes, that’s what I’m telling you.”

sounds like bologna to me. we will go bankrupt unless we accept the healthcare bill? did i hear that right? if it cost us 1 trillion. we will go bankrupt passing that bill...

consumerism is built on spending. hes right in that respect. but no one has any money. so the conumerism doesn't work dude. aren't you supposed to be vp?

[eatyualive]

WASHINGTON – Fifteen states have crossed a painful threshold: 10 percent unemployment. More states, and the nation, likely will follow, one of the biggest dangers to an economic recovery.
How consumers behave in the face of rising unemployment will figure prominently in shaping a broader rebound. If they go back into hibernation and sharply cut spending like they did at the end of last year, the recovery could cave in. More likely is that consumers will stay cautious, making for a fragile and slow-moving national economic turnaround, economists said.
The Labor Department on Friday said unemployment topped 10 percent in 15 states and the District of Columbia last month. And the jobless rate in Michigan surpassed 15 percent, the first time any state hit that mark since 1984.
The Federal Reserve this week projected that the national unemployment rate, currently at a 26-year high of 9.5 percent, will pass 10 percent by the end of the year. Most Fed policymakers said it could take "five or six years" for the economy and the labor market to get back on a path of long-term health.
"With so much uncertainty, companies will stay in cost-cutting mode and consumers will watch their spending," said Steve Cochrane, managing director at Moody's Economy.com.
The news was not all bad. North Dakota, helped by the oil business, reported the lowest unemployment rate of 4.2 percent in June. It was followed by Nebraska at 5 percent and South Dakota at 5.1 percent, supported by farm businesses. None of those states ever got carried away with the housing boom, either, so their residents didn't suffer as big a hit to household wealth.
Still, the state unemployment report underscored the damage that the longest recession since World War II has inflicted on companies, workers and communities, and the challenges the economy faces getting back on its feet.
A common theme running through states suffering from high unemployment was heavy layoffs tied to the troubled auto industry and the collapse of the housing market. Workers in manufacturing, construction, retail and finance have been the hardest hit.
"A lot of older industries are having to shut down and many of these jobs will never come back," said Bernard Baumohl, chief global economist at the Economic Outlook Group.
Take Michigan, ground zero of the recession.
Home to the nation's struggling auto makers, Michigan has been clobbered by lost factory jobs. Its jobless rate of 15.2 percent in June was the nation's highest. It was the first time in 25 years that any state has suffered an unemployment rate of at least 15 percent.
If laid-off workers who have given up looking for jobs or have settled for part-time work are included, the state's jobless rate was 22.5 percent, according to Michigan's Department of Energy, Labor and Economic Development. Nationwide unemployment by that measure was 16.5 percent in June, the highest on government records dating to 1994.
"In Michigan and elsewhere, the unemployment rate is just the tip of the iceberg of the extensive adverse impact of this 'Great Recession,'" said economist Lawrence Mishel, president of the left-leaning Economic Policy Institute.
Many workers have seen hours trimmed, their pay cut and have lost benefits. Combine that with a dismal housing market making it difficult for people to sell their homes and move to other places to find work, some jobseekers are trapped.
The other states where unemployment topped 10 percent last month were: Alabama, California, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Nevada, North Carolina, Ohio, Oregon, Rhode Island, South Carolina and Tennessee. In May, 13 states plus the District of Columbia watched their jobless rates surpass 10 percent. Alabama and Georgia joined the list in June.
Rhode Island had the second-highest unemployment rate in the country in June at 12.4 percent. When including people who stopped looking for work and those forced into part-time jobs, the state's unemployment rate was 22.7 percent, Mishel estimated.
Oregon had the third-highest unemployment rate at 12.2 percent, which was 21.6 percent by the broadest measure. South Carolina's jobless rate of 12.1 percent jumped to 22 percent when underemployed workers were included. It was followed by Nevada with a jobless rate of 12 percent, or 21.6 percent by the broadest measure, Mishel said.
The June jobless rates for Nevada, Rhode Island and South Carolina were the highest ever for those states in records dating to 1976. Other record-highs: Florida at 10.6 percent, Georgia at 10.1 percent and Delaware at 8.4 percent.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090717/...e_unemployment

[mister]

On March 5, 1933, in the depths of the banker engineered “Great Depression,” newly elected Franklin Roosevelt declared a “bank holiday” that forced banks closed for four days. Roosevelt then rammed the Emergency Banking Act through the legislature. Passed by Congress on March 9, the act granted FDR near dictatorial control over the dealings of banks. It also allowed the Secretary of the Treasury the power to compel every person and business in the country to relinquish their gold and accept paper currency in exchange.

On March 10, Roosevelt issued Executive Order No. 6073, forbidding people from sending gold overseas and forbidding banks from paying out gold. A few weeks later, on April 5, Roosevelt issued Executive Order No. 6102 ordering Americans to deliver their gold and gold certificates to the Federal Reserve bank in exchange for paper fiat money.

In other words, FDR engaged in one of history’s greatest rip-offs — that is until now.
FDR not only ripped-off the American people, but foreigners holding dollars as well, thus ensuring the “Great Depression” would spread around the world like a bankster engineered contagion.

Shit is going to hit the fan this fall!!!

http://www.infowars.com/bankster-hol...for-september/

[TVCasualty]

A constant-growth consumer society is a cancer. It's not even a metaphor, it is literally cancer; if a piece of our body is growing and that growth is not 'regulated' (a dangerously loaded term in a thread like this, but it is what it is) the doctors call it a "tumor" and financial analysts usually call it a "profitable corporation." If it continues, it spreads and ultimately kills the body. Business itself isn't cancerous, it's just the corporate philosophy of constant growth above all other considerations that's the problem.

America is still one of the healthiest patients in the cancer ward, but it won't be time to celebrate until we get the hell outta here (reinvent economics).

[eatyualive]

Originally Posted by TVCasualty

A constant-growth consumer society is a cancer. It's not even a metaphor, it is literally cancer; if a piece of our body is growing and that growth is not 'regulated' (a dangerously loaded term in a thread like this, but it is what it is) the doctors call it a "tumor" and financial analysts usually call it a "profitable corporation." If it continues, it spreads and ultimately kills the body. Business itself isn't cancerous, it's just the corporate philosophy of constant growth above all other considerations that's the problem.

America is still one of the healthiest patients in the cancer ward, but it won't be time to celebrate until we get the hell outta here (reinvent economics).

lol nice analogy. see im not so scared of having it rough. im scared of the fact that we have what the most deaths out of any nation by guns in the world? don't quote me on it but i think we are up there. and likewise canada has one of the highest percentages of citizens who own firearms and one of the lowest mortality rates from firearms.

im afraid of us not them....lol..

if shit gets out of hand. people will be pointing the guns in the wrong direction. at themselves.

maybe doing away with money. bc its the root of all evil. got to be a way of making it work....

[Hippie3]

you misquote-
money is not the root of all evil-
LOVE of money is...

[TVCasualty]

Originally Posted by eatyualive

maybe doing away with money. bc its the root of all evil. got to be a way of making it work....

IMO the only thing that can keep society functioning as it charges head-first into the future is rising consciousness. Trade and commerce are central to civilization, and we need a symbolic currency for that since we can't barter everything all the time. As long as consciousness is as low as it is now, any type of currency is subject to corruption and manipulation. If we had a bit more cultural cohesion we could have more trust in our currency and the institutions that administer it, but there's also the danger/fear of going too far in that direction and becoming so culturally homogeneous as to slip into a self-enforcing kind of totalitarianism.

I guess a synonym for "life" might be "a never-ending insoluble conflict."

[finite_synapses]

That quote's still a crock of shit, no matter what words are omitted. I understand that in the contexts of the book of Timothy, it fits, but would a broader generalization not suffice? ie GREED is the root of all evil? As in, capitalism suffices in building up the standing and infrastructure of a country, but in the end it all falls apart because everyone's a greedy bastard? As in, the USSR may have had a fighting chance if their government weren't as greedy and corrupt as everyone else? As in, This country's falling to shit because the bankers and politicians are greedy little shits? As in, I've had way too many dealings with greedy people who try to fuck me over when all I want is an honest and mutual cooperation, be it work or drugs or life in general?