Economic Collapse/ Dooms day/ The Sky is falling thread

[TVCasualty]

Well, people don't love greed as it's intangible. They love money, though. Also, greed alone doesn't have leverage like money has; you can want more and more and more but without money involved you only get what you can grab with your two hands. With money involved you can get far more than you can grab thanks to its abstract and illusory nature.

[Hippie3]

greed is natural, as well as rational in limited context.
what is lacking is
proper socialization.
society in general is breaking down
because of a failure in parenting and mentoring
that's supposed to instill ethical values
that turns greedy little monkeys
into civilized human beings.

[eatyualive]

Originally Posted by finite_synapses

That quote's still a crock of shit, no matter what words are omitted. I understand that in the contexts of the book of Timothy, it fits, but would a broader generalization not suffice? ie GREED is the root of all evil? As in, capitalism suffices in building up the standing and infrastructure of a country, but in the end it all falls apart because everyone's a greedy bastard? As in, the USSR may have had a fighting chance if their government weren't as greedy and corrupt as everyone else? As in, This country's falling to shit because the bankers and politicians are greedy little shits? As in, I've had way too many dealings with greedy people who try to fuck me over when all I want is an honest and mutual cooperation, be it work or drugs or life in general?

seems to all fit together. so greed, money being the paper representation of it... but yeah your right.

but hips also right. love of money is or greed is the root of all evil, right? same thing? maybe that statement derives from the creation of money. id say its the perfect representation of paper greed.

but not everyone is a greedy bastard. id say most people are happy with what they have or lives they lead. its just too bad our lives have to be governed by money. bc without it you can't function or live.

those who dignify material possession as happiness are the biggest fools of them all. because no matter what, like you said, greed will make you want more more.

its the fact. that we as the people don't have control over most of this bullshit. so we just try to be as happy as possible. nothing ive ever bought made me happy on the long term. its all been empty lies of the american dream.

the reality is if you live the american dream. you better be making well over 100,000 a year to be comfortable with that mortgage, that pool, that new car, those big boat water toys.

im more happy finding someone i can share everything with. even if i don't have shit to show for it. the least i have is happiness. and love is happiness. not money. wonder why so many people mistake it?

[eatyualive]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

greed is natural, as well as rational in limited context.
what is lacking is
proper socialization.
society in general is breaking down
because of a failure in parenting and mentoring
that's supposed to instill ethical values
that turns greedy little monkeys
into civilized human beings.

i agree with this.

anyone seen the movie "idiocracy" by the guy who made the office?

kinda makes me think of this. its a stupid funny movie but the idea really had me thinking quite a bit about how fucked our society is. people just don't have the work ethic anymore. all they care about is brand names, movie stars getting in wrecks and not about the reality we are leaving for the future generations.

[eatyualive]

wow someone had the balls to say it. and wow it was a republican. wasn't expecting that!

props!

[eatyualive]

Bankruptcy lawyers likely are managing just fine, but the depth of this downturn leaves few groups untouched -- even the wealthy are suffering

Greg Burns July 20, 2009 A doctor. A professor. A trash collector, funeral director and midlevel federal bureaucrat.

They all share one common element: They're recession-proof, right?

No question, their jobs sound safe and secure from the standpoint of car sellers, home builders, hedge-fund traders or, yes, newspaper reporters.

But the way that term "recession-proof" is tossed around these days, practically the entire economy seems to qualify. If almost everything is immune to the effects of recession, the nation's nearly 10 percent unemployment rate must be a bad dream.

Yet recent news coverage has slapped the "recession-proof" label on spa treatments, catering and beer. The economy of Peru is said to be recession-proof. Private campgrounds too.

Just imagine a campground in Peru that provides drinks, snacks and manicures. It's a sure thing.

Giant industries that have taken on the recession-proof mantle include health care and food, education and government. Clearly, it can't all be recession-proof.

"No, it's not. That's a fiction. There is no such thing," said William Hummer of Chicago's Wayne Hummer Investments. "Everyone's affected one way or another. The recent downturn leaves virtually no one untouched."

Some individuals do benefit from recessions: Bankruptcy lawyers spring to mind, and business workout experts. Anyone who avoided financial commitments, took no risks and kept money stuffed in a piggy bank might hold a temporary advantage too. But those folks are few in number.

And, of course, there must be opportunists with an eye for value who got out of the stock market at its peak in October 2007 or snapped up distressed assets during the depths of the financial meltdown that followed. Such timing requires unusual luck along with skill. As Hummer noted, "There's no consistency in that game."

Even among the most economically bulletproof industries, such as higher education, the recession is taking a toll in layoffs and declining enrollments.

While for-profits such as Oakbrook Terrace-based DeVry Inc. and Hoffman Estates-based Career Education Corp. have performed relatively well, trends have favored that sector for some time. As Hummer put it, "They would have done all right with or without a recession."

Government jobs are no longer an entirely safe bet, despite skyrocketing federal expenditures. California is on the brink of drastic cutbacks, and Illinois' $26 billion budget includes $1 billion in as-yet-unspecified trims.

The news last week that Moody's Investors Service is reviewing the state's credit rating for a potential downgrade bodes poorly for Illinois government workers.

Much depends on the depth of the downturn, and this one, unfortunately, is deep, said Paola Sapienza, a finance professor at Northwestern University's Kellogg School of Management.

"It's a question of degree," she explains. "I really don't believe there is any such thing as recession-proof, but there are some things less affected. If it goes deeper and deeper, there are consequences for everybody."

Recessions typically hurt the poor, and, as recent NU research shows, the rich. The middle's not getting a pass, as economic indicators make obvious practically every day. With the downturn still unfolding, Sapienza said, it's too early to tell what income group will suffer the most pain.

Those with the lowest incomes might seem obvious candidates for that unpleasant distinction, but they could benefit from relief programs aimed at subprime borrowers, for instance.

Contrary to conventional wisdom, the rich may bear the greatest burden, because the recession originated in the real estate and financial markets where they have the most exposure. "The wealthiest have suffered tremendously," Sapienza said.

Cue the violins.

The grip of the recession is said to be easing. Economists generally expect tepid growth to resume in the second half of the year and unemployment rates to retreat in 2010. Still, most also agree that recovery will be slow, and that goes for the "recession-proof" as well as everybody else.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/busine...0,84225.column

[eatyualive]

off msnbc

WASHINGTON - The federal government has devoted $4.7 trillion to help the financial sector through its crisis, a watchdog report said Monday. Under the worst of circumstances, the report said, the government's maximum exposure could total nearly $24 trillion, or $80,000 for every American.
The figures are part of a tough new quarterly report to Congress from special inspector general Neil Barofsky, who accuses the Treasury Department of repeatedly failing to adopt recommendations aimed at making one component of the government financial rescue effort more accountable and transparent.

The $4.7 trillion commitment to the industry equals about one third of the overall U.S. economy and takes into account about 50 initiatives and programs set up since 2007 by the Bush and Obama administrations as well as by the Federal Reserve. Barofsky oversees one of the initiatives — the $700 billion Troubled Asset Relief Program.
Much of the government assistance is backed by collateral and Barofsky's $23.7 trillion estimate represents the gross, not net, exposure that the government could face. No one has suggested that the full amount will be used.
Because of declining participation in short-term loan programs and because some infusions of money have been repaid, the maximum amount actually spent has declined to a current outstanding balance of $3 trillion, Barofsky said.
The agencies and the programs assisting the financial sector include a newly created Federal Housing Finance Agency, increased deposit insurance initiated by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp., and 18 support programs created by the Fed under the special powers it can deploy to address a systemwide financial crisis.
Banks have cut back on their use of the Fed's emergency lending program as well as other programs to ease credit stresses. Given that, the Fed has reduced the amount it will lend to financial institutions under two programs and it has decided to let a program to support money market mutual funds to expire as currently scheduled at the end of October.
Barofsky's $23.7 trillion estimate represents the maximum exposure that the government would face if all eligible applicants requested the maximum assistance at the same time. It does not account for the fees and other costs that some of these programs charge and for the collateral that many of the programs require that participants provide.
"While quantity and quality of the assets backing all of these programs vary, ignoring that side of these programs misrepresents 'potential exposure' associated with them," Treasury spokesman Andrew Williams said.
In his report, Barofsky says Treasury has accepted some of his recommendations for greater accountability, but says the department has not taken steps to require all TARP recipients to report on their actual use of funds. He said Treasury also should report the values of its investments in banks and other financial institutions, disclose the identity of borrowers under a nonrecourse loan program and disclose trading activity under a public-private investment fund.
Barofsky says Treasury's inaction means taxpayers have not been told what the financial institutions that have received assistance are doing with the money.
Barofsky's conclusion is contained in a quarterly report to Congress and in testimony he is prepared to give Tuesday to the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee.
"The very credibility of TARP (and thus in large measure its chance of success) depends on whether Treasury will commit, in deed as in word, to operate TARP with the highest degree of transparency possible," Barofsky said.

80k for each american. i didn't sign up for that....

[catdaddy]

It gets easier and easier to see now that someone who is looking out for the best interests of the people is NOT in charge.

If the folks running our country are intelligent folks- as we are here- do they not SEE the quagmire we are walking into at their bidding?

Of course they do.

But there's a REASON(s) it must be so.

There is going to be, and it is in progress, an orchestrated CHANGE in the very fabric of America- in what directly effects you and me.

The change is rather drastic, and in order to accomplish it rapidly, we must first be put as individuals into situations where we will accept this great change in order to survive- whether we agree with the end goal or not.

NOTHING I just said is unresearchable. It's the professed goal and documented acceptable processes of certain groups and individuals best grouped under the fuzzy title "Progressives" of the "Progressive Movement".

It has gotten easier to see in the last few months, has it not? It will be more so as it unfolds. Certain groups and their "members" want more/total control over us. Over our money, our lives, our health....

Over 30 years ago I said America would never fall over pressures from without, but pressures from within.

Maybe "fall" isn't accurate.

"Peter out" might be more accurate.

I think I'll stop here.

[Hippie3]

cat-
isn't it true that 'progressives' is just a code word for democrats ?
one hardly hears the term 'progressive movement' applied to conservatives AKA republicans.
that's why i termed your last testimonial as partisan politics-
just does not sound to me like you are talking about reagan or bush.

[catdaddy]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

cat-
isn't it true that 'progressives' is just a code word for democrats ?
one hardly hears the term 'progressive movement' applied to conservatives AKA republicans.
that's why i termed your last testimonial as partisan politics-
just does not sound to me like you are talking about reagan or bush.

Most certainly, progressive goals WERE accomplished under both Bush AND Reagan- (although minimised under that administration). The most glaring at this time is, of course, TARP 1.

Actually ALL the way back to Wilson, and possibly before- under both Democrats and Republicans.

PLEASE accept my heartfelt disclaimer here that although I tend to agree more with Republican policies that with Democrats... It wasn't always so, and it REALLY is irrelevant- this DOES cross party lines, and BOTH have accomplished stated goals of the Progressive Movement.

I believe in neither as our protectors and friends, let alone Saviours. I believe in the American citizen's right and ABILITY to govern himself.

its just that right NOW we are seeing the culmination of a century of planning and influence upon our society- and you can call it anything you want- any name is good- it all boils down to SOMEONE wanting power over ME.

And you.

This I cannot stomach. Enough is enough.

So I speak up. You know, I DO understand that some people actually desire the kind of government Socialism brings.

I do not.

I'd rather have my survival knife and freedom, than be a number in a line to have the government care for me.

And since I have a lot of pain just living these days, that's a lot to say.

Camping just ain't the fun it used to be, you know what I mean?

So anyway, man- I don't mean to appear to be partisan.

Maybe I can explain what I THINK is true... The Progressive Movement will use anything to accomplish its goals.

Fair enough- you want something, go for it. Make it happen.

It just happens that the goals of the PM are easier to accomplish disguised behind the sweet names of liberal causes. Like Global Warming or Universal Healthcare.

It's not about Liberalism versus Conservative.

Or Democrat versus republican.

It's about freedom versus servitude to the state, to me.

If I have to live somewhere on the arc between the two, I'll choose closer to the freedom side.

Any way, a shitload of manipulation of the people's money and freedoms is a' hapnin.

I just don't think this is the right road.

[catdaddy]

You should elect me to REPRESENT yer ass!

You could do a lot worse!

[Hippie3]

i AM doing worse thank you.
but i can represent myself better yet.
you haven't yet come into the full realization
that government is inherently hostile to free men and women.
law is one group of men telling all others groups what they may or may not do.
law is enforced by chain and shackle, prison cells and guns.
there is no such thing as a legitimate government-
it's foundations are laid upon tyranny and extortion.
patriotism is indoctrination.
the constitution is propaganda .
political parties are gangs,
politicians are gangsters.
the USA is a prison state.
i live in enemy occupied territory.

[eatyualive]

the USA is a prison state.

word. or police state.

[catdaddy]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

i AM doing worse thank you.
but i can represent myself better yet.
you haven't yet come into the full realization
that government is inherently hostile to free men and women.
law is one group of men telling all others groups what they may or may not do.
law is enforced by chain and shackle, prison cells and guns.
there is no such thing as a legitimate government-
it's foundations are laid upon tyranny and extortion.
patriotism is indoctrination.
the constitution is propaganda .
political parties are gangs, politicians gangsters.
the USA is a prison state.
i live in enemy occupied territory.

Sorry to hear that- I DID offer to represent you!

The interesting thing here to me, hip, is-

You seem to misunderstand me, because I whole-heartedly believe every word you just said!

In my world, the PREMISE was sound- what was built on it got ever much worse as it rolled along.

But that's the past.

Here we are.

And that's what I've been discussing.

I completely understand what you just said, and I think it is a VERY accurate representation of what you feel. And I heartily agree!

So, here we are now. What do we do- what do we discuss- that helps us prepare for where we are?

That's what we're doing right? The survivalist info,, the self-sufficiency how-to's. Discussion of political and social developments.

But no, I didn't miss the things you pointed out.

I just thought it was a given.

"Enemy occupied territory". That about sums it up.

[catdaddy]

You know the more I read back over what you said, the more I think it is hippieism material. Solid, to the point, and accurate.

This COULD have been so much more. (with MUCH less government!)

Anyway, we got what we got. As individuals, what we can do is limited to our little circle of friends... I see THAT coming together in many ways...

[Hippie3]

drop out,
turn on,
tune in.
as the good doctor advised.

drop out of the rat race,
turn on your mind and senses,
tune in to your personal world.

and do not fear the end,
for there must be one.
endings are never happy in the real world.

tune in to the day,
it's a gift from god
to you.

[catdaddy]

Damn- you sound like a hippie I once listened to...

You know, I do- but I still care, and I want to see a solution that allows all men to be free.

But I do look out for my own freedom FIRST.

[roc]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

drop out,
turn on,
tune in.
as the good doctor advised.

drop out of the rat race,
turn on your mind and senses,
tune in to your personal world.

and do not fear the end,
for there must be one.
endings are never happy in the real world.

tune in to the day,
it's a gift from god
to you.

Hey that's my line... well said!

[Oblivion]

the constitution is propaganda

It's nothing more than a pacifier. It offers no sustenance. It only keeps us from crying.

[LSDarkstar]

Hippie3

drop out,
turn on,
tune in.
as the good doctor advised.

drop out of the rat race,
turn on your mind and senses,
tune in to your personal world.

and do not fear the end,
for there must be one.
endings are never happy in the real world.

tune in to the day,
it's a gift from god
to you.

Theres much TRUTH in those words man.
we have yet to see crazy...

With a little help from our friends we can create a much nice space to ride this one out .....inthrough the next.

( give ya some rep one that one ....hehe)

Honestly , your one hell of a guy and knowing that (ie. above) energy is behind all you do , is simply........ beyond the beauty of words. Thanx Hip

Words to Love by,
LSD

[eatyualive]

Two of America’s biggest banks, Morgan Stanley and Wells Fargo, on Wednesday threw into sharp relief the mounting woes of the US commercial property market when they reported large losses and surging bad loans.
The disappointing second-quarter results for two of the largest lenders and investors in office, retail and industrial property across the US confirmed investors’ fears that commercial real estate would be the next front in the financial crisis after the collapse of the housing market.
The failing health of the $6,700bn commercial property market, which accounts for more than 10 per cent of US gross domestic product, could be a significant hurdle on the road to recovery.
Colm Kelleher, Morgan Stanley’s chief financial officer, said he did not see the light “at the end of the commercial real estate tunnel yet”, after the bank reported a $700m writedown on its $17bn commercial property portfolio in the second quarter. “Peak to trough, you have already had a pretty nasty correction in the market but it is still not looking very good at the moment,” he said after Morgan Stanley reported its third straight quarterly loss.
Wells Fargo saw non-performing loans in commercial real estate jump 69 per cent, from $4.5bn to $7.6bn in the second quarter as the economic downturn caused developers and office owners to fall behind in their mortgage payments.
Shares in the San Francisco-based bank were down more than 3 per cent at $24.55 in the early afternoon in New York as the increase in commercial non-performing loans undermined news of its best-ever quarterly profit. Morgan Stanley shares dipped before moving higher.
Ben Bernanke, chairman of the Federal Reserve, was repeatedly questioned by lawmakers on commercial real estate while testifying to Congress on Wednesday.
Mr Bernanke warned that a continued deterioration in commercial property, where prices have fallen by about 35 per cent since the market’s peak and defaults have been rising sharply, would present a “difficult” challenge for the economy.
He added that one of the main problems was that the market for securities backed by commercial mortgages had “completely shut down”.
The widespread weakness in commercial real estate is a crucial issue for US banks, especially regional lenders that ramped up their exposure to local developers in the easy credit boom that preceded the crisis.
“The commercial real estate market is soft, and most of the big banks are seeing the same kind of thing,” said Howard Atkins, chief financial officer of Wells Farg

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/3a1e9d86-7...nclick_check=1

[eatyualive]

dunno how reliable this link is. but kinda crazy sounding if this is true.

http://almartinraw.com/public/column417.html

(7-6-09) Here’s a glimpse of a Turn Key Approach to Urban Wasteland Management ™. Last week I had a chance to talk to a friend who just got back from Detroit and boy did he get an eyeful of America’s Future. After listening to him describe Detroit , it’s obvious that it has all fallen apart. First of all, there’s very little civil authority or regular civil government remaining and in operation. Almost everything has been turned over to these so-called Private Management Companies. And this is how it’s being done. They block out areas, in which 80% or more of the houses have been foreclosed on, which happens to be almost the entire city and county. They have selectively begun to bulldoze the properties which have been foreclosed on. The rest have been boarded up. Then they have turned over management of these 100 block area to private companies which have become defacto governments. They have the literal authority of “governments” and they’re paid a flat fee from the city, county or state to “manage,” as they say, a square block of this urban wasteland.

These Private Management Companies sell themselves as residual property management firms. Most of these companies, as it turns out, are in fact off-shore subsidiaries of Private Military Contractors (PMCs). They provide a catchall service. In other words, they regulate how much electrical power and natural gas flows through these areas. They also act as police force, and they act as management for local civil government.

However this Urban Wasteland Management has been pretty efficient. They want to protect what remaining wealthy areas that still exist, like Bloomfield Hills. These companies come in and effectively build large barbed wire fences, around these mostly abandoned square block areas. Some people are still living in them, by the way, even though most of them are boarded up because they’re no longer bothering to serve process through the entire foreclosure procedure. Oftentimes once the house has been taken back and is ultimately owned by the city or county or some government, they let the people stay there until it’s abandoned and then taken over by squatters. Then they’re given a 72 hour notice to leave, by this private management company – before they come in and bulldoze the house. If you’re not out, that’s it. The bulldozers run. They can bulldoze the place with you in it – with legal impunity.

So here’s the scene. Imagine a 100-square blocks in a city on a hot summer night. Only one out of every twenty streetlamps is working, and even that is low-wattage. These lamps are broken and swinging back and forth in the wind. There’s rusted out steel drums lying here and there. Pyres of burning scrapwood. In the background there are shadowy figures darting in and out of buildings, trying to salvage anything or strip the remaining buildings of anything that’s worth anything.

Since no electricity is being provided to these residents anymore, what this private management cum security company does is they bring in old water trucks. Then these water trucks are placed at certain locations during certain times. The people then totter down with their old plastic buckets and bottles to get their water.

My friend said that what Detroit looks like now, particularly at night, is like a scene that you would see five or ten years after a Third World War. Everything is bulldozed, but it’s not all collected because there’s not much left after everyone has picked it apart. They just bulldoze it, chop it up and leave it in little piles. So imagine these little smoldering piles of rubble with these low wattage street lamps that are broken swinging back and forth. And don’t forget the rusted out water trucks bringing in water for the “survivors,” what else can you call them? They also bring in food from various charitable organizations and distribute free food like Spam and week old bread etc. The residents (survivors) in order to get anything have to register with the private security company and get a card which must be presented to the authorities if you want to get any water etc.

They also provide very rudimentary medical care, which is part of their contract service, to provide Band-Aids if the need arises.

It’s all very quiet and all you hear is the howling of feral dogs in this urban wasteland scene.

Is Detroit a precursor of times to come in other American cities? As foreclosures mount and despite what the Obama Regime and the Financial Media says, the economy isn’t improving, at least not in the respect that foreclosures are still rising.

Residential foreclosure rates won’t even peak for another year. And the foreclosure debacle that is coming in commercial and industrial properties hasn’t even really begun.

Last week Fannie Mae announced that they expect the coming debacle in commercial and industrial properties is going to increase the foreclosure rate forty-fold in the next 12-18 months.

In spite of that, the Wall Street Journal is promoting REITs, writing about how the REIT market is “Hot” once again. This is what I might call Triple-Reconstituted REITS. In other words, they got busted out, raised money, then bought the same property back for 50 cents on the dollar. Then they got busted out again, raised more money, and diluted shareholder equity even further. Later they bought back the same property for 25 cents on the dollar. Then they’re busted out a third time. Then it becomes a question of how many pennies on the dollar is it ultimately worth?

Residential areas that are on the periphery of industrial areas which are also all foreclosed, shut down or burned out. A lot of the train tracks that run through these areas have already been ripped up and sold for scrap metal.

They must have security guards in hand cars driving up and down with searchlights looking for train track scavengers.

These private management companies have been given more power than the underlying governments ever had. They have become, for lack of a better word, a defacto privatized post-apocalyptic government.

This could be the template for the future of America’s cities. As the state and county governments continue to get squeezed and revenue continues to fall, they have to cut back the amount of money they’re paying these private companies. So what they’re doing instead is allowing these private companies to set up what are defacto private enterprise zones with complete governmental power. All of the aluminum and copper and other scarp metal that’s being stolen by the survivors is being bought by these outfits that are just beyond the fence and are actually owned by the privatized security/ government companies. They also act as pawnshops for anything that’s left. This is one way to subsidize what is a declining government co-payment.

As legitimate government funding for this diminishes, these outfits take on more and more power of government until they become virtual mini-dictatorships.

My friend told me that you go down the street and you see this barbed wire fence and right across the street is the border of a very wealthy area. You see all of the private security that the wealthy people have hired and the searchlights that are monitoring activity in the neighborhood. It’s similar to South America where you see the barrio or favela come right up next to a wealthy neighborhood. As foreclosures mount and government resources diminish, these Urban Wasteland Zones (UMZs) are expanding. Now these companies also hire themselves out to provide security for the remaining wealthy areas, so they have their own security patrols going up and down the street. In some cases it’s only one street that separates where the barbed wire fence stands and what they call “no man’s land” near the wealthy area.

This is evidently going on in cities all across the United States, just on a smaller and less organized scale. Now as foreclosures mount, this will become more prevalent in other cities. Detroit then is a template of what America’s future cities will look like.

Federal government has virtually given up doing anything because they don’t have the money. The states are right because all the money which was hundreds of billons that was promised them under the Bush Regime through Homeland Security grants etc. never came through and all they ever got was maybe 14 cents on the dollar. Under the Obama Regime, federal transfer payments have actually diminished because the regime doesn’t have any money.

You can point to these examples all over. Last week the State of California began paying tax refunds in promissory notes or I.O.U.’s. Many states and counties are now trying to settle obligations in promissory notes.

Looking at the bigger picture, we have entered this W-shaped economy and we are going to go into a second dip. When we are at the trough of that second dip, then it’s push-comes-to-shove time, which means that we’ll see about the Federal government’s ability to hold it all together. Why? Because state governments are in a defacto state of collapse and there’s not much that the federal government can do about it, other than to provide these financial guarantees, which allow the states to sell more bonds and municipal securities, the interest of which they don’t have the ability to service. They come with a federal guarantee, however, so if they go into default, the federal government has to assume the responsibility. What buyers of these notes don’t by and large understand about these federal guarantees is that these guarantees are only guaranteeing the principal of the bond and not the interest. In many cases, as Moody’s and Standard & Poor’s have pointed out, all these guarantees the Obama Regime is making are part of what is a reconstituted Resolution Trust situation. Many of them are only partial guarantees, maybe 60 cents on the dollar. Now many of the people who are buying these securities don’t understand that.

So what has been government’s response to declining tax revenue at state levels? To continuously increase cigarette tax to a dollar a package every six months. As prices increase, sales go down faster than the additional tax revenue is collected. All states have sold tax anticipation revenue bonds, even though none of them have sufficient revenue from increased tobacco tax to service the bonds. Republicans are now solidly behind a smoke-free America which will impinge on the American people’s right to partake of tobacco. That is the new mindset. They won’t make it illegal, but eventually it will make tobacco a privilege of the wealthy.

What will happen to the $150 billion of tobacco tax anticipation bonds states have already sold? How will that debt be serviced? None of the states have the necessary cash flow to service these tobacco and alcohol tax revenue bonds (anticipation revenue notes) because most of the states, between federal and state tax hikes, are increasing the price of liquor $1 per every proof gallon every six months.

Tobacco and liquor will become the province of the wealthy. The hoi polloi sitting on top of those piles of smoldering rubble in Detroit, trying to scrounge aluminum gutters – no more tobacco for you. You’ll be getting the corn husks from your local paramilitary government association.

When cash goes to promissory notes – what’s the next step from there? Government issued chits. Maybe they’ll look like the German money/ chits from the 1920s. They were half the size of today’s currency issued in One Billion Mark and Ten Bullion Mark denominations. But these will be corporate-issued chits. You’ll get a chit for so many gallons of water or a chit for so many hours of electricity. You can get a bag of corn-husk “tobacco” or coffee, which will be 10% coffee and 90% chickory, just like the “old days.”

So maybe we should all go long scrap lumber. Imagine the amount of scrap wood necessary to print al these promissory notes, chits and coupons… Just kidding.

[eatyualive]

here is more on this subject

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/f...o-survive.html

The US government is looking at expanding a pioneering scheme in Flint, one of the poorest US cities, which involves razing entire districts and returning the land to nature Photo: GETTY

Headquarters of General Motors Corp. in Detroit Photo: BLOOMBERG NEWS


An empty house in Detroit Photo: DEREK BLAIR

The government looking at expanding a pioneering scheme in Flint, one of the poorest US cities, which involves razing entire districts and returning the land to nature.
Local politicians believe the city must contract by as much as 40 per cent, concentrating the dwindling population and local services into a more viable area.


The radical experiment is the brainchild of Dan Kildee, treasurer of Genesee County, which includes Flint.
Having outlined his strategy to Barack Obama during the election campaign, Mr Kildee has now been approached by the US government and a group of charities who want him to apply what he has learnt to the rest of the country.
Mr Kildee said he will concentrate on 50 cities, identified in a recent study by the Brookings Institution, an influential Washington think-tank, as potentially needing to shrink substantially to cope with their declining fortunes.
Most are former industrial cities in the "rust belt" of America's Mid-West and North East. They include Detroit, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Baltimore and Memphis.
In Detroit, shattered by the woes of the US car industry, there are already plans to split it into a collection of small urban centres separated from each other by countryside.
"The real question is not whether these cities shrink – we're all shrinking – but whether we let it happen in a destructive or sustainable way," said Mr Kildee. "Decline is a fact of life in Flint. Resisting it is like resisting gravity."
Karina Pallagst, director of the Shrinking Cities in a Global Perspective programme at the University of California, Berkeley, said there was "both a cultural and political taboo" about admitting decline in America.
"Places like Flint have hit rock bottom. They're at the point where it's better to start knocking a lot of buildings down," she said.
Flint, sixty miles north of Detroit, was the original home of General Motors. The car giant once employed 79,000 local people but that figure has shrunk to around 8,000.
Unemployment is now approaching 20 per cent and the total population has almost halved to 110,000.
The exodus – particularly of young people – coupled with the consequent collapse in property prices, has left street after street in sections of the city almost entirely abandoned.
In the city centre, the once grand Durant Hotel – named after William Durant, GM's founder – is a symbol of the city's decline, said Mr Kildee. The large building has been empty since 1973, roughly when Flint's decline began.
Regarded as a model city in the motor industry's boom years, Flint may once again be emulated, though for very different reasons.
But Mr Kildee, who has lived there nearly all his life, said he had first to overcome a deeply ingrained American cultural mindset that "big is good" and that cities should sprawl – Flint covers 34 square miles.
He said: "The obsession with growth is sadly a very American thing. Across the US, there's an assumption that all development is good, that if communities are growing they are successful. If they're shrinking, they're failing."
But some Flint dustcarts are collecting just one rubbish bag a week, roads are decaying, police are very understaffed and there were simply too few people to pay for services, he said.
If the city didn't downsize it will eventually go bankrupt, he added.
Flint's recovery efforts have been helped by a new state law passed a few years ago which allowed local governments to buy up empty properties very cheaply.
They could then knock them down or sell them on to owners who will occupy them. The city wants to specialise in health and education services, both areas which cannot easily be relocated abroad.
The local authority has restored the city's attractive but formerly deserted centre but has pulled down 1,100 abandoned homes in outlying areas.
Mr Kildee estimated another 3,000 needed to be demolished, although the city boundaries will remain the same.
Already, some streets peter out into woods or meadows, no trace remaining of the homes that once stood there.
Choosing which areas to knock down will be delicate but many of them were already obvious, he said.
The city is buying up houses in more affluent areas to offer people in neighbourhoods it wants to demolish. Nobody will be forced to move, said Mr Kildee.
"Much of the land will be given back to nature. People will enjoy living near a forest or meadow," he said.
Mr Kildee acknowledged that some fellow Americans considered his solution "defeatist" but he insisted it was "no more defeatist than pruning an overgrown tree so it can bear fruit again".

and some more...

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/20...inking-cities/

http://www.businessinsider.com/will-...-cities-2009-6

[Hippie3]

yeah, factor this in,
toss in a nasty flu season,
a bad winter =
ugly as hell.
today in Podunk
i saw a middle-aged fellow on road side
'will work for gas' sign
van stalled on road.
down here
that's very fucking rare
but it's a sign of hard times.

[toadshroom]

things are getting bad. I'm a young bartender (mid to late 20's) and I hear so much from the old-timers (much wiser than most) about how they're so scared for my generation. As i read on here before, everyone knows how to go to the grocery store and buy food....how many can take a seed to harvest, let alone produce it into usable food? I'm young, and I don't know near as much as I need to. It's a scary world when so many people are thinking about this in America....how long have people thought this in many other parts of the world? It finally hits home.

[eatyualive]

The vampiric and gluttonous feeding frenzy currently being enjoyed by the federal government under the pretext of climate change is set to be expanded with a range of new taxes on products disposed of via waste water, including cosmetics, toothpaste and toilet paper. The “Water Protection and Reinvestment Act,” H.R.3202, introduced last week by Representative Earl Blumenauer (D-Ore), will be “financed broadly by small fees on such things as bottled beverages, products disposed of in wastewater, corporate profits, and the pharmaceutical industry,” according to Blumenauer’s fact sheet.
Though the taxes are “designed to be collected at the manufacturer level,” only the most naive would doubt that multinational corporations would just pass the cost on to the consumer in the form of higher prices, as is routine.
Items disposed of in wastewater, such as toothpaste, cosmetics, toilet paper and cooking oil will be subject to a 3% excise tax, while water beverages will be hit with a 4% tax, “because these products wind up in the water stream and require clean up by sewage treatment plants,” according to the bill.
The legislation also cites “climate change mitigation” as a justification for imposing the taxes. The Feds’ new feeding frenzy will rake in around $10 billion dollars a year.
The bill even defines “toilet tissue” in section 4172. “The rulemaking to define what rises to the level of a bottom-wipe is in the name of a good cause: to tax the stuff,” writes Chris Horner. “The current band of feds don’t think you’ve paid enough tax — this has been established ad nauseam — and now want a dedicated revenue, er, stream, to pay to replace corroded pipes and overburdened sewer systems nationwide.”
The necessity of cleaning up a water supply poisoned with the toxic soup of human disposals seems like a reasonable proposal, especially in light of evidence that antiandrogens in our rivers and lakes are contributing to global sperm reduction and essentially chemically sterilizing men, and yet when the filters are ready to be installed at water treatment facilities that would remove this junk, the government steps in and blocks them under the justification that they contribute to CO2 emissions.
The fact that the global warming feeding frenzy has now reached a level of insanity to the point where the federal government is essentially preparing to tax us to defecate and urinate shows how far down the line we really are. What’s next? A tax on breathing? After all, we humans exhale that evil life-giving poisonous gas carbon dioxide. The New York Times actually introduced the idea of the government imposing a tax on breathing in a March 2007 editorial.
As we are lectured about the necessity of why we must have every aspect of our lives regulated and taxed in order to save the earth, we learn that the government’s last efforts to do so, during the ozone layer scare of the 80’s and 90’s, actually harmed the environment.
The Washington Post reported on Monday that hydrofluorocarbons (HFCs), introduced in the 90’s to replace ozone-depleting gases in deodorants, fridges and air conditioners, actually “act like “super” greenhouse gases, with a heat-trapping power that can be 4,470 times that of carbon dioxide.” So while the government was brow-beating us about the evils of emitting CO2 because it apparently caused global warming, they were actually mandating that we use a gas which contributed to global warming to an substantially greater degree.

[RestartLater]

People left Britain and sailed across the ocean to get a way from being taxed to death!!! Look where we are at now....... *SAD*!

I said years ago, that any economy based in services only will not work!!

As for the current president, he offered us change , rebuilding of America, and the same healthcare him and our representatives have been afforded for all these years by AGI....... whom they bailed out.......LOL

The entire situation is dis hearting to say the least! How can we rebuild roads, bridges, and buildings when we don't even make our own steel??


As I said before it is time to take back our raw materials and start up the manufacturing machine again in America!'

Or they can keep building more prisons to herd us all into instead! *SAD*

RestartLater

[eatyualive]

Economic output shrank by 5.6pc in the 12 months to the middle of the year, according to official figures which shattered hopes that the recovery has already begun.
The Office for National Statistics said that Britain's gross domestic product (GDP) contracted by 0.8pc in the second quarter, following the unprecedented 2.4pc fall in the first three months of the year. Economists had expected GDP – the broadest measure of the country's economic performance – to shrink by 0.3pc.



According to calculations by Martin Weale of the National Institute for Economic and Social Research the profile of the current recession is now almost identical to the decline in Britain's output between 1929 and 1931. The 5.6pc contraction over the past year almost matches the 5.8pc fall in the year preceding the second quarter of 1931, during which Credit Anstalt in Austria collapsed, triggering a second wave of economic seizure across Europe.
The recession is far deeper and more severe than those of the early 1980s and 1990s, Mr Weale added.
"Gordon Brown is now competing with Ramsay MacDonald – not a comparison he would much like," he said. "It looks as if we are pretty much tracking the 1930s,
"The financial crisis has been much bigger [than in the 1930s], the period of boom beforehand was more marked; and so you might think it's thanks to the policies [from the Bank of England and Government] that we'll end up with something slightly less bad but along similar lines."
Markets nevertheless took the disappointing news in their stride, with the FTSE 100 rising for a tenth straight day by 16.81 points to 4576.61. Indeed, the 10.9pc increase in those sessions is the biggest uninterrupted increase since the index was set up in 1985.
The Treasury forecast in the Budget earlier this year that the economy would shrink by 3.5pc this year, but most independent forecasters, including the International Monetary Fund and OECD, expect a far more severe contraction. The ONS figures also cast doubt on whether the economy will start to grow again before the end of the year.
Michael Saunders, UK economist at Citigroup, said although he expects growth to return in the third quarter, the recovery will feel subdued.
"As well as a deep recession, we expect a slow recovery, held back by high private debts and (with inadequate bank capital) poor credit availability," he said, adding that it would take until 2013 for the economy to reach the pre-recession peaks of 2008.
He added: "It will be many years before the UK returns to a well-balanced and sustainable mix of low unemployment, low fiscal deficit and low public debts, decent economic growth and low inflation."
The GDP decline also casts doubt on whether the Treasury will achieve its borrowing targets for the year – even though the £175bn of debt forecast for this fiscal year is already set to be a post-war record deficit. The Budget assumed, when drawing up these borrowing figures that the economy would shrink by 3.75pc, at worst. A bigger fall would push the deficit up further, as it would imply lower tax revenues and bigger comparative public spending totals.
Liam Byrne, Chief Secretary to the Treasury, insisted that growth would return by the end of the year.
"We are not out of the woods by any stretch of the imagination, but what today's figures show is that the pace of the downturn is easing," he said.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/f...epression.html

[eatyualive]

NEW YORK - More than $200 million collected from cell phone users for upgrades to the 911 system has been diverted in the last two years to plug state budget holes, keep campaign promises and, in at least one case, buy police uniforms, an Associated Press analysis has found.

Dispatchers say the diversion of money comes at the expense of improvements that would give crime and accident victims more opportunities to reach responders. Someone who has been kidnapped, for instance, may not be able to talk but might be able to quietly send a text message or a photo.

Cell phone subscribers in nearly every state pay anywhere from 20 cents to $1.50 a month for what is described in their bills as 911 improvements. In some states, the AP analysis found, less than half that money is actually going to help emergency dispatchers keep pace with the features of smart phones.

As states hammered by the recession look around for new ways to balance their budgets, the 911 money is tempting:

• In New York, only 19 cents of the $1.20 the state collects from each subscriber each month goes to emergency calling services. The rest pays for uniforms for the state police, a wireless network for emergency responders and the state's general expenditures.

• In Wisconsin, a new 75-cent monthly fee was supposed to pay for ongoing 911 operations and improvements. When the state's deficit grew, the state decided to divert $100 million in the next two years to local governments to reduce pressure to raise property taxes.

• In Arizona, lawmakers funneled $25 million from its emergency telecommunications fund, halving its size, and cut its monthly 911 cell phone fee to 20 cents. As a result, the fund could be out of money within three years.

"The issue of [fund] raiding has been a trickle for a few years, and now we're seeing the faucet on full blast," said Dane Snowden, vice president of external and state affairs at wireless industry group CTIA.

A highly publicized round of call center upgrades is nearly complete, allowing 911 dispatchers to automatically pinpoint cell phone callers. But emergency officials say that's no reason to raid funds set aside for future upgrades. After all, voice calls are just one of many things phones can do.

Dispatchers would like the capability to receive photos, videos and text messages from cell phone users in danger. Photos shot by witnesses with camera phones have already proved useful in catching bank robbers and flashers, for instance. Getting those photos to 911 centers -- which could get them to police faster -- could help solve crimes.

In several cases in recent years, kidnapping victims have summoned help by surreptitiously sending text messages. But because they can't send directly to 911, they've had to use intermediaries.

When David Deganian and a friend were abducted at gunpoint on an Atlanta street early one morning in 2007, Deganian managed to sneak a text message to his brother Arman: "We have been kidnapped. Please call the police and help us."

Later, the friend tried calling 911. The gunmen heard him, interrupted the call and took the phones away. Luckily, Arman Deganian was awake to notice the text message. He got the police on the case, and they rescued his brother and his friend that afternoon.

In a more famous case, a 14-year-old girl in Kershaw County, S.C., was held in an underground bunker for more than a week before she managed to send a text message to her mother from the captor's phone.

Upgrading call centers to handle text and video messaging would require new computer systems, communications lines and staff training, costing tens of millions of dollars per state, according to the National Emergency Number Association.

A complete accounting of how 911 money is spent in all states is not available, partly because most of the money dispatch centers get is funneled to them by counties. The Federal Communications Commission has been collecting information from the states at the request of Congress, and is expected to report its findings soon.

Oregon, Arizona, Delaware, Hawaii, Wisconsin and Tennessee are among the states that have dipped into their 911 money recently. New York and Rhode Island have been diverting their funds for at least five years. States started collecting the funds in the 1990s.

In the fiscal year that ended in June 2008, Rhode Island collected $19.4 million in 911 fees and used $5.8 million for 911. The rest went to the state's general fund.

Raiding the funds could reduce the money available for 911 upgrades even further, by reducing federal grants. After a round of 911 fund raiding during the previous recession, at the beginning of the decade, the federal government tightened its grant rules to discourage the practice.

To elude the federal government's wagging finger, New York is changing the name of its "Enhanced 911" fee to "Public Safety Communications Surcharge," to make it clearer that 911 is just one of its purposes.

Other states seem to ignore the grants issue.

Oregon collects 75 cents per cell phone per month. Although its attorney general's office concluded that federal laws on 911 grants prohibit using money from wireless bills for purposes other than 911 services, the state took $3 million from an $80 million fund that mingles wireless and landline fees.

"When people pay their bills, they see that they are paying 75 cents per telephone line to fund the 911 system. For the Legislature to turn around and divert some of the money to other purposes is disingenuous. It's just wrong," said Hasina Squires, a lobbyist who represents emergency communications officers in Oregon.

Gov. Ted Kulongoski's office and legislative budget officials defended the decision, citing Oregon's "extraordinary" budget shortfall. They said they took money from various accounts if they determined that doing so wouldn't disrupt core functions of those programs.

Tennessee believes it got around the federal restrictions by leaving the principal in its 911 fund intact and taking out $11 million in accrued interest in the fiscal year that ended June 2008. The fund had $54 million left.

"It begs the question: If you have that much money in holding, why is it still being collected from consumers? It doesn't make any sense," CTIA's Snowden said. "The E911 fund is appearing to be an ATM."

http://www.baltimoresun.com/business...,2808949.story

[Hippie3]

if you or i tried that
we'd be arrested for
embezzlement.

[TVCasualty]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

if you or i tried that
we'd be arrested for
embezzlement.

Hell, I think I might anyway. It's that good a scam! I'll just turn it back on the gov't; I think they call that a "grant writer."

[eatyualive]

WASHINGTON — More than 90% of the nation's largest metropolitan areas saw their unemployment rates climb in June from the previous month.
Some of the biggest increases hit college towns, where the annual summertime exodus of students causes bars, restaurants and other businesses to cut staff. The Detroit area, hit hard by manufacturing layoffs tied to the beleaguered auto industry, also got stung in June.
Unemployment rates rose from May to June in 348 of more than 370 metro areas, according to an Associated Press analysis of Labor Department data released Wednesday.
The figures aren't adjusted to account for seasonal trends, such as lifeguards hired during summer or retail clerks let go after the holiday shopping season. So they tend to be volatile from month to month.
The Labor Department does not provide seasonally adjusted metro area unemployment data. It does adjust the national unemployment rate for seasonal factors. The U.S. jobless rate, which hit 9.5% in June, is expected to rise to 9.7% when the department reports the July rate next week.
FIND MORE STORIES IN: Alabama
Tuscaloosa, Ala., home to the University of Alabama, suffered the biggest monthly increase in unemployment from May to June. Its jobless rate jumped to 12.5% in June, up 3.8 percentage points.
Michigan's metro area of Detroit-Warren-Livonia posted the second-biggest monthly gain. The unemployment rate there climbed to 17.1%, a gain of 2.2 percentage points.
Pocatello, site of Idaho State University, saw the third-biggest monthly rise. The metro area's unemployment rate rose to 7.8% in June, up 2 percentage points from May.
Next were Laredo, Texas, home of Laredo Community College, with a June jobless rate of 9.4%; Lafayette, Ind., which includes Purdue University, with a rate of 10.5%; and McAllen-Edinburg-Mission, Texas, at 11.1%. Each saw its unemployment rate rise 1.7 percentage points from May.
When the unemployment data is seasonally adjusted and viewed over the past year, all 372 of the largest metro areas saw their unemployment rates move higher in June for the sixth month in a row, the Labor Department said.
Kokomo, Ind., suffered the biggest over-the-year gain in unemployment. Its rate rose to 19.2% in June, an increase of 11.8 percentage points from June 2008. Elkhart-Goshen had the second-largest gain. Its jobless rate of 16.8% was up 10 percentage points from last year. Monroe, Mich., the third-biggest gainer, registered an unemployment rate of 17.1% in June, up 8.6 percentage points from a year ago.
Other big over-the-month gainers were: Gadsden, Ala., which includes Gadsden State Community College among other schools. The unemployment rate there rose to 11.1% in June.
Alexandria, La., saw its unemployment rate rise 7.5%. And the jobless rate in College Station-Bryan, Texas, home to Texas A&M, rose to 6.5%. All three areas suffered month-to-month increases of 1.6 percentage points.
Seven metro areas saw their jobless rates hold steady from May to June. One of them was Yuma, Ariz., whose steady unemployment rate was probably cold comfort: It remained at 23.1%, second-highest in the country.
Other metro areas whose unemployment rates didn't budge last month: Portsmouth, N.H., at 5.7%; Asheville, N.C., at 9.2; Cleveland-Elyria-Mentor in Ohio, at 10.1%; Sioux Fall, S.D., at 4.7% (tied for the fourth-lowest in the nation); Danville, Va., at 12.8%; and Spokane, Wash., at 8.9%.
And 18 metro areas saw their unemployment rates drop from May. One was El Centro, Calif., which still laid claim to the highest unemployment rate in the country in June: 27.5%. That was down from 28.7% in May. (Unemployment there is notoriously high because of many seasonal farm workers without jobs.)
Another: Indiana's Elkhart-Goshen, which has been pounded by layoffs in the RV industry. Its jobless rate dropped to 16.8% in June, from 17.5% in May. The unemployment rate in Wenatchee-East Wenatchee, Wash., fell to 7.7%, and in Yakima, it dropped to 8.2%.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/econom...f-metros_N.htm

[eatyualive]

NEW YORK, July 29 (Reuters) – The sound money set remains concerned that the Federal Reserve’s emergency actions to corral collapse could ignite hyperinflation. In particular, they point to the explosion of excess reserves inside the banking system, which they call dry tinder just waiting for the spark of recovery. Bill Dudley, president of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, says this isn’t an issue because the Fed now pays interest on excess reserves. It’s a good argument, but only in the short run.
For decades they never rose above $10 billion. Now they’re above $700 billion. To understand why this level of excess reserves has some worried about hyperinflation, it helps to understand what they are.
The Fed requires banks to keep a certain level of assets in reserve against deposits, either cash in the vault or reserves held at the Fed. Reserves held over this required amount are referred to as “excess” reserves which banks are free to lend out.
When banks lend money into the economy, the money borrowed typically ends up as a deposit in another bank. Say I borrow to buy a house; the mortgage I get from the bank is money I give to the seller, who then deposits the cash in his own bank.
Lent money turns into a new deposit, which turns into more lent money, which turns into another deposit, and so on. As the supply of money multiplies, you get inflation. If it multiplies too quickly, you get hyperinflation. The multiplication of money that might come from banks lending out over $700 billion of excess reserves is the stuff of inflationary nightmares.
But banks aren’t lending it out. Why not? As Dudley points out in his speech, it’s because the Fed is now paying them an interest rate.
Before last October, banks lent out all their excess reserves. After all, excess cash in the vault earns the bank no profit. But then Congress gave Ben Bernanke the power to pay interest on excess reserves, which means banks now can earn a return by keeping them on deposit at the Fed. Money that could be lent isn’t, inflation remains a potential threat, not a kinetic one.
But there’s a catch. When the economy recovers banks won’t any longer want to keep their excess reserves on deposit at the Fed, not unless the Fed is willing to pay a much higher interest rate.
Walker Todd of the American Institute of Economic Research argues that “the economy won’t be able to handle the high interest rates the Fed will be forced to charge in order to keep excess reserves immobilized in its vault.”
The Fed argues it has other tools to shrink its balance sheet when the time is right. For one, its emergency lending facilities are priced high enough such that banks will stop drawing on them when the economy recovers. But even after its lending facilities are wound down the Fed acknowledges the level of excess reserves will still be huge. To keep them immobilized will require substantially higher rates.
But raising rates will cause asset prices to plummet. Weak balance sheets will collapse and the financial crisis could return in full force. This is the conundrum the Fed faces.

http://blogs.reuters.com/rolfe-winkl...fed-tightrope/

[eatyualive]

[eatyualive]

A recent article in the New York Times, entitled "Why a Recovery May Still Feel Like a Recession," has buried in it some startling statistics about the direction of the US economy. Floyd Norris' article points out that durable-goods shipments -- a basic measure of industrial production -- "fell by more than 20 percent during this recession, and would have declined further were it not for increased production of weapons."
The use of the military-industrial complex as a quick, if dubious, way of jump-starting the economy is nothing new, but what is amazing is the divergence between the military economy and the civilian economy, as shown by this New York Times chart.
In the past nine years, non-industrial production in the US has declined by some 19 percent. It took about four years for manufacturing to return to levels seen before the 2001 recession -- and all those gains were wiped out in the current recession.
By contrast, military manufacturing is now 123 percent greater than it was in 2000 -- it has more than doubled while the rest of the manufacturing sector has been shrinking.
But Norris adds a valuable caveat: "The United States remains primarily a civilian economy. The military now takes about 8 percent of all durable goods, up from 3 percent in 2000." While that puts the size of the military economy in perspective, it's important to note the trajectory -- the military economy is nearly three times as large, proportionally to the rest of the economy, as it was at the beginning of the Bush administration. And it is the only manufacturing sector showing any growth. Extrapolate that trend, and what do you get?
The change in leadership in Washington does not appear to be abating that trend. The military budget for 2009, not including the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, is $651 billion, up 11 percent from the $583 billion spent on the military in 2008. (See the Pentagon's budget report here (PDF)). The Iraq and Afghanistan wars are estimated, separately, to cost $150 billion per year.
At his blog on Talking Points Memo, John Taplin argues the rapid militarization of the economy is a clear sign of a civilization in decline. Taplin cites the historian Alfred Toynbee's analysis of the decline of the Roman empire, as paraphrased at Wikipedia:

Sound familiar?

http://rawstory.com/blog/2009/08/is-...itary-economy/

[Hippie3]

well
such analogies inevitably break down
as the details emerge.
there are far more significant differences
between America and Rome
than similarities.

[catdaddy]

There are no doubt similarities between where we are now and probably every civilization that has risen and fallen in recorded history. We can and should learn from them, but this is now, and doubtless it will be different in SO many ways from the past, despite the similarities.

So we learn, stay aware, try to prepare.

The future will unfold soon enough.

[eatyualive]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

well
such analogies inevitably break down
as the details emerge.
there are far more significant differences
between America and Rome
than similarities.

yes well rome. but the part about the increase in military manufacturing and decrease in economic manufacturing is an interesting little detail.

[Hippie3]

it might be more significant
IF rome had been around
AFTER the industrial revolution-
the term 'manufacturing' barely applies
to an agrarian society like rome's.
no one was manufacturing much of anything in 150 BCE.
there were no factories...

[Hippie3]

btw
a far more significant point about the fall of rome-
by the early centuries AD
slaves out-numbered citizens roughly 2 to 1,
even worse in rome itself.

romans got lazy, lost their work ethic.
it got so bad that by the time of their conquest
the 'roman' legions were mercenaries,
mostly Goths and Germanics.

when confronted by invasion by their own kinsmen
they abandoned rome and joined its' enemies.

[eatyualive]

WASHINGTON — The recession is starving the government of tax revenue, just as the president and Congress are piling a major expansion of health care and other programs on the nation's plate and struggling to find money to pay the tab.
The numbers could hardly be more stark: Tax receipts are on pace to drop 18 percent this year, the biggest single-year decline since the Great Depression, while the federal deficit balloons to a record $1.8 trillion.
Other figures in an Associated Press analysis underscore the recession's impact: Individual income tax receipts are down 22 percent from a year ago. Corporate income taxes are down 57 percent. Social Security tax receipts could drop for only the second time since 1940, and Medicare taxes are on pace to drop for only the third time ever.
The last time the government's revenues were this bleak, the year was 1932 in the midst of the Depression.
"Our tax system is already inadequate to support the promises our government has made," said Eugene Steuerle, a former Treasury Department official in the Reagan administration who is now vice president of the Peter G. Peterson Foundation.
"This just adds to the problem."
While much of Washington is focused on how to pay for new programs such as overhauling health care — at a cost of $1 trillion over the next decade — existing programs are feeling the pinch, too.
Social Security is in danger of running out of money earlier than the government projected just a few month ago. Highway, mass transit and airport projects are at risk because fuel and industry taxes are declining.
The national debt already exceeds $11 trillion. And bills just completed by the House would boost domestic agencies' spending by 11 percent in 2010 and military spending by 4 percent.
For this report, the AP analyzed annual tax receipts dating back to the inception of the federal income tax in 1913. Tax receipts for the 2009 budget year were available through June. They were compared to the same period last year. The budget year runs from October to September, meaning there will be three more months of receipts this year.
Is there a way out of the financial mess?
A key factor is the economy's health. The future of current programs — not to mention the new ones Obama is proposing — will depend largely on how fast the economy recovers from the recession, said William Gale, co-director of the Tax Policy Center.
"The numbers for 2009 are striking, head-snapping. But what really matters is what happens next," said Gale, who previously taught economics at UCLA and was an adviser to President George H. W. Bush's Council of Economic Advisers.
"If it's just one year, then it's a remarkable thing, but it's totally manageable. If the economy doesn't recover soon, it doesn't matter what your social, economic and political agenda is. There's not going to be any revenue to pay for it."
A small part of the drop in tax receipts can be attributed to new tax credits for individuals and corporations enacted in February as part of the $787 billion economic stimulus package. The sheer magnitude of the tax decline, however, points to the deep recession that is reducing incomes, wiping out corporate profits and straining government programs.
Social Security tax receipts are down less than a percentage point from last year, but in May the government had been projecting a slight increase. At the time, the government's best estimate was that Social Security would start to pay out more money than it receives in taxes in 2016, and that the fund would be depleted in 2037 unless changes are enacted.
Some experts think the sour economy has made those numbers outdated.
"You could easily move that number up three or four years, then you're talking about 2013, and that's not very far off," said Kent Smetters, associate professor of insurance and risk management at the University of Pennsylvania.
The government's projections included best- and worst-case scenarios. Under the worst, Social Security would start to pay out more money than it received in taxes in 2013, and the fund would be depleted in 2029.
The fund's trustees are still confident the solvency dates are within the range of the worst-case scenario, said Jason Fichtner, the Social Security Administration's acting deputy commissioner.
"We're not outside our boundaries yet," Fichtner said. "As the recovery comes, we'll see how that plays out."
The recession's toll on Social Security makes it even more urgent for Congress to address the fund's long-term solvency, said Sen. Herb Kohl, D-Wis., chairman of the Senate Aging Committee.
"Over the past year, millions of older Americans have watched their retirement savings crumble, making the guaranteed income of Social Security more important than ever," Kohl said.
President Barack Obama has said he wants to tackle Social Security next year, after he clears an already crowded agenda that includes overhauling health care, addressing climate change and imposing new regulations on financial companies.
Medicare tax receipts are also down less than a percentage point for the year, pretty close to government projections. Medicare started paying out more money than it received last year.
Meanwhile, the recession is taking a toll on fuel and industry excise taxes that pay for highway, mass transit and airport projects. Fuel taxes that support road construction and mass transit projects are on pace to fall for the second straight year. Receipts from taxes on jet fuel and airline tickets are also dropping, meaning Congress will have to borrow more money to fund airport projects and the Federal Aviation Administration.
Last week, Congress voted to spend $7 billion to replenish the highway fund, which would otherwise run out of money in August. Congress spent $8 billion to replenish the fund last year.
Rep. Richard Neal, D-Mass., chairman of the House subcommittee that oversees fuel taxes, is working on a package to make the fund more self-sufficient. The U.S. Chamber of Commerce, which doesn't back many tax increases, supports increasing the federal gasoline tax, currently 18.4 cents per gallon.
Neal said he hasn't endorsed a specific plan. But, he added, "You can't keep going back to the general fund."

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...RTgugD99ROBK80

[Hippie3]

oh yeah, raise the tax on gasoline-
that'll sure help the unemployed.

[TVCasualty]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

romans got lazy, lost their work ethic.
it got so bad that by the time of their conquest
the 'roman' legions were mercenaries,
mostly Goths and Germanics.

Blackwater to the rescue! Fortunately evolution in political thought has made us much more sophisticated than Rome ever was; for one thing now we're smart enough to keep the slaves at a safe distance, which has the added benefit of helping them maintain the illusion they are free and minimizes those annoying uprisings that disrupt commerce. If we ship the work to the workers' country (which is kept impoverished by IMF and WTO policies to insure that they'll 'take' the work) instead of shipping the workers to Rome, er, I mean the U.S., then they are clearly 'not slaves'. And yet, many apparently feel unable to turn down the 'opportunity' to manufacture the things we in the industrialized countries enjoy for a wage so low that they themselves will never be able to afford the stuff they make for us.

And I'd have to disagree a bit about the lack of manufacturing going on back in Rome (or long before, frankly). I think it's a matter of definition. There weren't assembly lines in the modern way we understand them, but archeology has uncovered many instances of large deposits of things like pottery shards or molten metal bits concentrated in a specific area, implying a dedicated workspace for making pottery or working metal or whatever. One of the oldest pottery proto-factories complete w/ stone-age standardized apartments and integrated underground sewage disposal was found in Northern Scotland at a village called Skara Brae and was abandoned circa 2600 BCE (no shit, a dozen identically-furnished apartments in a centrally-planned community in Scotland were in use 2500 years before the city of Rome was built). And especially in the case of metallurgy, the Roman Legions' swords and shields and armor had to be relatively consistent (otherwise it's not exactly a 'uniform') and manufactured by the thousands and I don't believe each Legionnaire made his own. So, IMO mass-production has at least a 5000 year history.

[Hippie3]

during Republic days most legionnaires supplied their own arms, armor.
of course goods were made in the roman empire,
but rome was never about manufacturing and exporting trade goods,
wine and olive oil is not autos and appliances.
i think that article is being misleading-
growing food is not 'manufacturing'
unless you care to bend and twist the term to fit
just about any kind of work.
yes, rome made weapons for its' armies
but it did not manufacture vast surpluses to sell to its' neighbors.
if you look at how things went in rome,
the flow of goods was TO rome, not FROM rome.
rome was not self-sufficient by imperial times,
vast amounts of food, oil, wine and all kinds of goods
from the outlying provinces entered rome every day,
even at its' peak of glory.
but the reverse was not true-
rome sent almost nothing out to the provinces
except soldiers and tax collectors.
they did not practice 'trade',
they extorted tribute and taxes.

[TVCasualty]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

to sell to its' neighbors.
if you look at how things went in rome,
the flow of goods was TO rome, not FROM rome.
rome was not self-sufficient by imperial times,
vast amounts of food, oil, wine and all kinds of goods
from the outlying provinces entered rome every day,
even at its' peak of glory.
but the reverse was not true-
rome sent almost nothing out to the provinces
except soldiers and tax collectors.
they did not practice 'trade',
they extorted tribute and taxes.

Damn, that sounds kinda sorta familiar too...

And from what I understand, they did practice trade. There weren't excessive surpluses like we might have today but they certainly had the neolithic equivalent. There was no source of firewood for the hearths at Skara Brae and the animal remains found in the trash piles had many more skeletons than skulls, implying firewood and meat were imported to the very harsh area (they were there to engage in astronomy, apparently, so were somewhat scholarly). Specialized stone balls carved in Skara Brae have been found in sites far removed from where they came from, and there was apparently significant tobacco and coca traces found in some Egyptian mummies, though that finding is a bit controversial as it would overturn quite a few status-quo applecarts.

As I read more and more, I'm starting to think a lot of our popular conceptions of history and pre-history are way off. As the science gets better, dates and assumptions and all the rest keep getting revised and human activity keeps getting pushed further and further in the past than we ever thought possible. I'm not sure what relevance all that has to the economy right now except to say it appears we've been putting up with this kind of thing for a long, long time.

[Hippie3]

well, just quibbling but
skara brae was not part of the roman empire
and imperial rome was in the Iron Age, not neolithic.
i do agree that ancient history is expanding, filling in details
and like so many other things
modern man seriously under-estimated his ancestors.
it's just a shame that writing came about so late,
much we will never know as no history was kept.
one can only learn a tiny bit of the gestalt
from pottery shards.

[Hippie3]

it appears we've been putting up with this kind of thing for a long, long time.

Stretching between El-Matmir and El-Etmanieh are the cemeteries of one of the Predynastic's most remarkable cultures. Originally regarded as having lacked hierarchical structures, the Badarian remains (5500-4000 BC) exhibit characteristics of social complexity. In 1992 Wendy Anderson published the results of her investigation into the spatial distribution and temporality of grave goods from 18 cemeteries at Badari, Matmar and Mostagedda. Differential frequencies in goods distribution are evident between as well as within various age groups. These observations are not typical of an egalitarian society, whose structure is based upon age seniority and respect, but are indicative of economic and social inequalities.

about 7,500 years so far, and counting...

[eatyualive]

if this were a real situation where we have a recession possibly depression and such. you have to question this bullshit right here. in times of need, you don't upgrade. wtf. wasn't congress rilling gm for having private jets. isn't this ironic? now they get their own private jets...

this just pissed me off real bad right here. but whats new besides more job loss and corporate rip offs. now im begging the question. was this whole bullshit economic crisis orchestrated? im starting to think it might be now.

Congress Gets an Upgrade


$500 Million Slated for Purchase of Eight More Planes as Lawmakers' Travel Soars


WASHINGTON -- Congress plans to spend $550 million to buy eight jets, a substantial upgrade to the fleet used by federal officials at a time when lawmakers have criticized the use of corporate jets by companies receiving taxpayer funds.

The purchases will help accommodate growing travel demand by congressional officials. The planes augment a fleet of about two dozen passenger jets maintained by the Air Force for lawmakers, administration officials and military chiefs to fly on government trips in the U.S. and abroad.

The congressional shopping list goes beyond what the Air Force had initially requested as part of its annual appropriations. The Pentagon sought to buy one Gulfstream V and one business-class equivalent of a Boeing 737 to replace aging planes. The Defense Department also asked to buy two additional 737s that were being leased.


Lawmakers in the House last week added funds to buy those planes, and plus funds to buy an additional two 737s and two Gulfstream V planes. The purchases must still be approved by the Senate. The Air Force version of the Gulfstream V each costs $66 million, according to the Department of Defense, and the 737s cost about $70 million.

Geoff Morrell, the Pentagon press secretary, said the Department of Defense didn't request the additional planes and doesn't need them. "We ask for what we need and only what we need," he told reporters Wednesday. "We've always frowned upon earmarks and additives that are above and beyond what we ask for."

Congress turned harshly critical of companies that fly executives on private jets in the weeks following the government bailout of banks and auto makers last year. General Motors, Chrysler LLC and Citigroup Inc. were among those caught in the cross hairs of angry lawmakers.


The House Appropriations Committee says the new purchases are designed to replace seven aging and more expensive business jets. The net impact is one additional plane owned by the federal government and a substantial increase in its passenger capacity.
Ellis Brachman, a spokesman for the House Appropriations Committee, said the changes were part of "Congress's normal oversight responsibility" to make sure "the troops have everything they need."

The 737s, known as C-40s by the military, are designed to be an "office in the sky" for government leaders, according to Air Force documents describing the plane. The plane is configured with all first-class leather seats, worktables, two large galleys for cooking and a "distinguished visitor compartment with sleep accommodations."

Mr. Brachman said Air Force's passenger planes were mostly used by military officials, the White House and other members of the Executive Branch. Over the past five years, 44% of the use of the planes has been for the military, 42% for the administration and 14.5% for members of Congress, Mr. Brachman said.

A Wall Street Journal analysis of congressional records found that foreign travel by members of Congress and aides was increasing. Last year, House members spent about 3,000 days overseas on taxpayer-funded trips, up from about 550 in 1995, according to the Journal's analysis.

Lawmakers disclosed they spent about $13 million traveling the world last year, a tenfold increase since 1995, when travel records first were made available electronically. The travel costs are covered by an unlimited fund created by a three-decade-old law.
This month, for example, 11 separate congressional delegations will swing through Germany. House Minority Leader John Boehner of Ohio is leading five other lawmakers on a trip around the world. Sen. Richard Shelby (R., Ala.) is taking a group of senators and their spouses to Europe for three weeks.

A spokesman for Mr. Boehner said he couldn't comment on the trip for security reasons. A spokeswoman for Mr. Shelby said the same.

Most travel must be approved by congressional committees. Once approved, the lawmaker who is leading a delegation can decide whether to fly on a commercial airline or to request a business jet from the Department of Defense.
Lawmakers typically fly on military jets, where members of the Armed Services carry bags and take drink orders. When flying on military jets, lawmakers are permitted to bring along spouses at no cost.

When there are too many requests for military planes, the speaker of the House or the Senate majority leader decides who gets to go. Two House employees work full time to organize overseas trips.

There is often a shortage of military planes for use by lawmakers when Congress is in recess, according to emails from 2007 obtained by the conservative group Judicial Watch under a Freedom of Information Act Request.

In June 2007, the House's travel coordinator, Kay King, was told that all military planes were booked for the July 4 recess. She replied to the Air Force officer: "This is not good news, and we will have some very disappointed folks, as well as a very upset Speaker."
Drew Hammill, a spokesman for Democratic House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, said Thursday, "The speaker is extraordinarily appreciative of the Department of Defense's efforts to accommodate requests from Congress."
Most of the planes available for lawmaker's travel are based at Andrews Air Force Base, Md., a few miles from Capitol Hill.
The D.C. Air National Guard maintains three 737s and two Gulfstream V planes there. The 89th Airlift Wing operates 18 planes, including two military versions of the Boeing 747 that serve as Air Force One. The Air Force also keeps several more passenger planes at bases in Illinois, Germany and elsewhere.
Most of the planes are painted light blue and white, with "United States of America" painted on the fuselage. The C-40 costs about $5,700-an-hour to fly, according to the Department of Defense. The smaller Gulfstream V, called a C-37 by the military, seats as many as 12 passengers and costs about $3,000 an hour to operate.

so really. was flying first class on commercial airlines that bad? you have people starving, losing jobs, hardly able to pay rent or buy food. and your what?


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124960404730212955.html

[Hippie3]

so you think govt. officials should park those black limos
and ride the bus ?
maybe obama should sub-let the White House too,
no one needs that much space,
we could put the
president of the united states of america
up at a holiday inn .
and those fancy State dinners-
dump the chef
take the Prime Minister of France
out for a burger at mickey d's.

my point is that
perks like these are
appropriate to the OFFICE held.
they represent us to the world,
and we don't want the world to see
the usa as too poor to put on a good face.

besides
these people have targets painted on their backs-
you can't just dump pelosi , as much as i loathe her ,
on a frontier airlines jet with her secret service entourage,
comm equipment [she's in the line of succession to the presidency],
etc.
it's too risky for her
and for the other passengers as well.

[roc]

pelosi needs to fly with old Roc... I'd take real good care of her right up to the moment I kicked her ass out of the plane without a parachute over shark infested waters.