Economic Collapse/ Dooms day/ The Sky is falling thread

[eatyualive]

Panickers and dooms dayers. This thread is for you. Lets try to keep this a level headed approach to our current economic crisis. Personally the current path our government has taken and the unwarranted and un monitored spending path they have chosen leads me to believe that we are headed much farther than a simple recession.

Call it what you will, but in my eyes. This is the brink of a greater depression much deeper rooted than any this planet has seen. The world will not end, but its definitely going to be something we have not seen. Nor want to. I can picture the usa turning into a 3rd world country. As the usa will most likely be at the top of the food chain, imagine what other countries will look like? Picture Zimbabwe. Where a loaf of bread cost 1 milliin dollars.

Now, some may say doom and gloom. Others may look at this as bluntly honest or even making or taking the right measures to be prepared. To me, this is being smart and looking at all the signs. All signs across the board are pointing to yes. This doesn't mean I am delusional by any means. This means, I have accepted this to be a reality in the near future and that I want to be ready if it does. If it doesn't, it means, I still have plenty of food to eat that I would be eating anyway. And it never hurts to get supplies you can use. It combats inflation in the short term. If that is a reality we face in the near future.

Now I don't fore see this happening right awy. This is the tip of the icebarge right now. I see in about a year or two inflation soaring quit a bit. If that leads to a currency collapse then things might get ugly. And notice I said "if". This is my speculation. I've read between the lines. I see all the problems. Numerous countries across the board are already talking of their own defaults on natitional debt as well as possible currency collapse already. Iceland has already faced this reality. Europe is talking about some countries pulling out of the European Union which may cause even more economic trouble for the area.

With the loss of confidence and the reality that our foreign investors may not be our investors anymore, I think this could be a real reality in our fore seeable future if the proper measures are not being taken. Spending, I feel is the wrong way to do this. All its doing is feeding our fire with paper money we do not have. None of these bailouts have worked yet. None of which any future bailouts will either. The banks that got bailouts are already speaking of needing more money.

How far will it need to go to get things taken care of? How much of our money are they going to take? Whey are the people being held under the knife to take care of this problem that the government created?

So, ideally this thread is for your rants. But I also want, collective and concrete thought. No out there ideas. I am looking for ideas that if lets say a depression happens.

What is a way to prepare?

What goods would you need?

What would you need to take care of?

Is money even relevant?



I will start.

first priority is

FIREARMS

And just as a background. I have never been for having my own gun or against those who bear arms. I think responsible use of firearms should be every persons right. Although my last effort to anything violent is getting a gun. While I respect gun owners rights, I do understand the need for protection. And my last thing I would ever do is get a gun.

Unfortunately, getting protection is much closer of a reality. So, please go off. And lets not make this so much anti government, lets make this a collective effort to put ideas up that could change things in a positive way, maybe even ideas that can work us through this mess if this is the reality we face soon.

And I will even go one step further. I could be wrong. But I would rather be wrong, be prepared and have some extra food. Than to face what could be.

[pippielongstalking]

i totally agree with you brother. The times as of right now look pretty bleak. I think america (yes america because what we do affects the rest of the world tremendously) is at a fork in the road. Greed has been slowly eating away at us. Our good paying jobs are gone, and theyre not coming back, unless a miracle happens. I believe 2 things have been a major cause in our economic collapse. 1st--the flood of illegal immigrants coming to our country and taking our construction jobs, im a bricklayer so i saw this first hand. when they work for a third of what we made, how do you compete with that. thats where greed comes in, the builders would hire cheap mexican labor over american labor and thats 1 thing that eventually caught up with the man. think about it, whos the one that was buying all these trucks for the most part---it was the american construction worker, not the illegal. because he just makes his money here and takes it back to mexico and gets the same truck for half price. another thing, the oil companies absolutely robbed us all in the summer on the gas prices. but what do we say? oh it could be worse at least gas is only 2 bucks a gallon, i say screw that. the price of oil is super low so gas should be even cheaper right now---another example of greed. number 2---china, why in the world would we build this country up and then get in so much debt with them. i blame noone but ourselves, me included. we just keep on and on and on buying these cheap ass products from china. why do we keep doing this? i dont think america makes anything anymore. but basically everything comes back to one thing and one thing only---its greed my friends. greed has always and will always be the achilles heel of the human race. i think america has a chance to pull out of this mess much stronger than we were before we got into this. but the country needs to take a long hard look at itself in the mirror and the people need to band together and say enough is enough and tell our leaders( who by the way work for us or at least thats what our founding fathers said the way it should be) " look were taking our country back one way or the other. so you get your ass to work and quit kissing whoever ass it is that owns you and for once in your life stand up for the common folk." personally i believe america will pull through this, or at least i hope she does. but if not and the shit starts getting crazy, you can bet the bank on one thing, this hippie wont ball up in a corner, ill do whatever it takes to stay free---this free bird will never be caged and theres millions and millions across this great country that feel the same way

[golly]

Wow.. I think Eats has a new home..Heh..

The US Gov has expanded by 40% in just two years, trying to impose federal rule thru-out the States..They are promoting international law and the centralization of power..
Luckily, 23 states are planning the re-affirmation of the 10th amendment , which protects States rights, to make their own independent decisions concerning martial law,gun control and many personal freedom issues..

So b4 we become the United Soviet style States with a highly regulated and censored internet and way of life - Some peeps are waking up...

My point being, that this economic turmoil is without a doubt , an orchestrated worldwide demolition of free market capitalism and independence..
The ultimate power grab by the bankers..
And yes, this is just the beginning of the final sequence for the New World Government.

To believe otherwise, u would have to assume that all these economists were just too dumb and greedy to see the bubble forming and changing course..

This has been coming for a long time really , back to the ACT of 1871 where the US gov became incorporated.
1913 when the Federal reserve begins illegally controlling the money supply..

How about the gov sponsored program started in 1987 to assist companies in moving
offshore for greater profits .... So now we're left with hardly any manufacturing/production capability , which actually saved us during the last great depression ..
These are but a few of the strategies used by the masters ,who's realm lies above any sovereign government ..They repeatedly blow these bubbles and suck up the assets as they burst..
It's pretty bad when the fake news is more accurate than mainstream..

I think we can count on an even larger impact event to divert attention away from
the day to day misery unfolding around us..A little something to rally the people to the flag no doubt..

Before ya go thinking what a depressing post this is - I think our finest hours are just ahead ..We're not going to be driven like cattle off the cliff..No fuck'n way..
It's not "live free or die'
but "live free or die trying"

[catdaddy]

Damn,

I had to look twice to make sure that I didn't post any of what's already here!

I'm pretty vocal about the crapstorm I see coming.

I'm storing food, and guns enough for hunting and self defense.

The usual gardening, and probably a meat goat when the pitbull dies...

I think I will be trying the fish-in-a-barrel, as well. Of course I fish all season, and freeze them, too.

We have backup heat, two kinds with three fuel sources, a generator, good bicycles in case the need arises. chain saws, axes, etc.

Don't have a spare concubine yet... gotta work on that.

I scored a hydro pump for the sunroom today. Probably get some chickens, too- after the damn pitbull dies...

Can't have shit with him here, he'll kill himself trying to kill everything else.... or used too. Hell, he's damn near blind, deaf, and can't even smell well, maybe I could start sooner.

This spring I start my beer project, and I'm building a still- just need to assemble the pieces.

Now, just need to schedule that trip to Concubines-R-Us...

[dpwishy]

Within the last month I sold My Wii and all the other stupid shit that was draining my energy and bought a whole new set up. A Kelty 5600 Red Cloud Expedition pack, Rain guard for the pack, REI Mummy Style sleeping bag, Therm-A-Rest mat, 2 person dome tent, A water pump filtration system that lets you filtrate any still water in North America without heating, a mess kit, hatchet, buck knife, head lamp, magnesium stick, a Lantern that's kinetic and needs no batteries, and some new Garmont boots. I wanted to be able to take care of my self at any moments notice, as we all should be ready.........


love, peace, compassion and respect
-wishy

[TVCasualty]

I'm gathering a list of local people and their skills to compile a source that others can use to find goods or services they may need, and it's a private list that you get on by listing your own skills/abilities/etc. and each transaction is privately initiated between individuals so there is no central organization or leadership. The key is that money is optional, but it won't get the IRS scrutiny that barter clubs put up with due to the lack of central organization. You trade your plumbing skills for my electrical skills, or cash, or veggies from the garden, or whatever. If inflation takes off, money only gets in the way and it's shelter, water, fire, and food that we need, not money. So far I've found people interested in this with some great skills like a bicycle mechanic, some carpenters, a master seamstress, a car mechanic, a metalworker, and a few others.

I think this kid of thing has a lot of potential to help people through tough times, and if nothing else it starts establishing the kind of community that would be necessary in the event of major social unrest. We're going to need to put our local Neighborhood Watch on steroids as crime skyrockets as it always does when economies tank, we'll need help clearing trees and debris after storms or disasters, and possibly shelter and food if the damage is severe enough, and there are all kinds of other scenarios we can imagine that being a part of a strong local network would help mitigate the damage from.

Your MySpace and Facebook "Friends" won't be able to help you unless they also live close by, and THAT is one of the biggest rude awakenings most people will have should things get really interesting. They will be completely on their own if most of their relationships are spread out and electronically maintained, and not knowing who you can trust in a crisis is a very vulnerable place to be. We all have our friends and relatives, but how many of them are a day's walking distance or less away? Generally, the higher that number, the better off you are.

[eatyualive]

an interesting read right here.

Trade Wars Brewing In Economic Malaise

Is this what the first trade war of the global economic crisis looks like?
Ordered by Congress to "buy American" when spending money from the $787 billion stimulus package, the town of Peru, Ind., stunned its Canadian supplier by rejecting sewage pumps made outside of Toronto. After a Navy official spotted Canadian pipe fittings in a construction project at Camp Pendleton, Calif., they were hauled out of the ground and replaced with American versions. In recent weeks, other Canadian manufacturers doing business with U.S. state and local governments say they have been besieged with requests to sign affidavits pledging that they will only supply materials made in the USA.
Outrage spread in Canada, with the Toronto Star last week bemoaning "a plague of protectionist measures in the U.S." and Canadian companies openly fretting about having to shift jobs to the United States to meet made-in-the-USA requirements. This week, the Canadians fired back. A number of Ontario towns, with a collective population of nearly 500,000, retaliated with measures effectively barring U.S. companies from their municipal contracts -- the first shot in a larger campaign that could shut U.S. companies out of billions of dollars worth of Canadian projects.
This is not your father's trade war, a tit-for-tat over champagne or cheese. With countries worldwide desperately trying to keep and create jobs in the midst of a global recession, the spat between the United States and its normally friendly northern neighbor underscores what is emerging as the biggest threat to open commerce during the economic crisis.
Rather than merely raising taxes on imported goods -- acts that are subject to international treaties -- nations including the United States are finding creative ways to engage in protectionism through domestic policy decisions that are largely not governed by international law. Unlike a classic trade war, there is little chance of containment through, for example, arbitration at the World Trade Organization in Geneva. Additionally, such moves are more likely to have unintended consequences or even backfire on the stated desire to create domestic jobs.
Buy American

Take, for instance, Duferco Farrell Corp., a Swiss-Russian partnership that took over a previously bankrupt U.S. steel plant near Pittsburgh in the 1990s and employed 600 people there.
The new buy American provisions, the company said, are being so broadly interpreted that Duferco Farrell is on the verge of shutting down. Part of an increasingly global supply chain that seeks efficiencies by spreading production among multiple nations, it manufactures coils at its Pennsylvania plant using imported steel slabs that are generally not sold commercially in the United States. The partially foreign production process means the company's coils do not fit the current definition of made in the USA -- a designation that the stimulus law requires for thousands of public works projects across the nation.
In recent weeks, its largest client -- a steel pipemaker located one mile down the road -- notified Duferco Farrell that it would be canceling orders. Instead, the client is buying from companies with 100 percent U.S. production to meet the new stimulus regulations. Duferco has had to furlough 80 percent of its workforce.
"You need to tell me how inhibiting business between two companies located one mile apart is going to save American jobs," said Bob Miller, Duferco Farrell's executive vice president. "I've got 600 United Steel Workers out there who are going to lose their jobs because of this. And you tell me this is good for America?"
The United States is not alone in throwing up domestic policies assailed by critics as protectionist. Britain and the Netherlands, for instance, are forcing banks receiving taxpayer bailouts to jump-start lending at home at the expense of overseas clients. French President Nicolas Sarkozy initially insisted that his nation's automakers move manufacturing jobs home in exchange for a government bailout, but backed down after outrage surged among his peers in the European Union, of which France is a central member.
But the number of measures, both proposed and enacted, from the Obama administration and Congress in recent months has raised an alarm among foreign governments, pundits and news media outlets. The buy American provisions in the stimulus package, signed into law in February, were just the beginning. Last week, Obama unveiled a series of proposals aimed at increasing taxes by nearly $200 billion over the next decade on U.S. companies doing business abroad. At a White House event, Obama said the measures were designed to "close corporate loopholes" that permit companies to "pay lower taxes if you create a job in Bangalore, India, than if you create one in Buffalo, N.Y."
Keeping Jobs at Home

A slew of legislative proposals is also aimed at keeping jobs at home. In recent weeks, the House attached additional buy American provisions to a $14 billion clean-water fund that provides loans to local communities and a $6 billion program to finance environmentally friendly school construction projects.



Other pending measures would require the federal government to buy 100,000 U.S.-made plug-in hybrid cars, mandate that the president's airplanes be made in the country by an U.S. company, and force several federal agencies, including the Pentagon and Department of Transportation, to use only domestic iron and steel.
Last month, Senate Majority Whip Richard J. Durbin (D-Ill.) introduced a measure with Sen. Charles E. Grassley (R-Iowa) to tighten rules governing the H-1B visa program for guest workers. Among its provisions: Companies seeking to import specialized workers from abroad first must make a good-faith effort to recruit U.S. citizens.
"The H-1B program was never meant to replace qualified American workers. It was meant to complement them because of a shortage of workers in specialized fields," Grassley said. "In tough economic times like we're seeing, it's even more important that we do everything possible to see that Americans are given every consideration when applying for jobs."
Buy American provisions are not new. Federal transportation projects have been required to use domestic iron and steel since 1982, and some defense contracts are limited to U.S. bidders. But the stimulus package marks the first time a buy American mandate has been broadly applied to projects across an array of federal agencies.
No one appears to be more concerned than America's largest trading partner -- Canada.
Initial concern north of the border over the buy American provisions died down after a clause, supported by the administration, was inserted in the bill clearly stating that the measure would not supersede existing U.S. trade obligations. During his Feb. 19 trip to Ottawa, Obama additionally pledged to avoid protectionism.
Creeping Protectionism

As passed, the act keeps that pledge, White House spokeswoman Jennifer Psaki said. "The president is committed to creating jobs in America and committed to global engagement with our trading partners and does not see any contradiction between those two goals," she said.
But in recent weeks as federal authorities drafted broad guidelines for implementing the law and hundreds of states and towns have begun preparing for stimulus-related projects, Canadian companies have been surprised to discover that while some federal contracts are still open to Canadian materials and equipment because of trade treaties, most of those issued by state and local governments are not.
The Government Accountability Office estimates that state or local officials will administer about $280 billion in stimulus spending, including about $50 billion for transportation projects. But federal authorities have determined that construction projects even partially funded with stimulus dollars must also buy American, dramatically increasing the universe of affected contracts.
As a result, John Hayward, president of Hayward Gordon, a Canadian manufacturer of pumps used in water works projects, says U.S. towns, including Peru, Ind., have told him that they can no longer buy his Canadian-made products.
"We're not China. We're not even Mexico. We have the same relative cost of labor as you do," he said. "If we have a better price, you should buy from us. That's what competition is supposed to be about."
To stay in business, Hayward is considering moving some manufacturing operations to the United States, potentially creating jobs here. That, Peru Mayor Jim Walker notes, is what the stimulus was supposed to be about.
"You're trying to get America turned around, trying to put Americans back to work," Walker said. "And if American taxpayers are paying for this, well then, Americans deserve the benefits."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...1404241_2.html

[Om shanti]

Interesting article, Eatyualive. It's very easy to waste public money with those types of protectionist policy. When even the Swiss/Russian company with U.S. production couldn't be recognized under the "Buy American" clause, then it sounds way too strict. But of course, when it's government funded, who cares about efficiency... Still, the U.S. is the country best placed to get something out of these policies, because of its economic power. If a small country did something like this multinationals would just say "fuck you", but here there is some chance that the most efficient companies will end up adjusting their production to put more jobs in the U.S., temporarily at least.

About the crisis in general, I was encouraged by the Euro 'fed' chief Jean Claude Trichet's statements about the economy a few days ago. That they see the crisis slowing down, giving hope of a not so distant turning point. Let's see. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124203138317506177.html

I lost my job a few months ago due to the recession, and if I don't land a new job soon I'll soon be setting up a serious guerilla growing potato and cabbage operation. ;-)

[eatyualive]

also 10 states higher than 10 percent unemployment.


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/22/us...ml?_r=3&ref=us

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...mployment.html

[Scratch]

This downturn is just a business cycle, not the end
of the world. These things are common and to be
expected.

We've gone thru this before and it will happen again,
nothing to get excited about. Although the situation
appears bleak, that's how it always looks just before
the turnaround.

This particular one has some weird currents with all the
foreclosures happening but its otherwise nothing special.
This downturn is the payback for 10 years of high risk
home lending by some foolish & greedy banks.

No need to stockpile survival gear. Your money would
be better spent snatching up some real estate at rock
bottom prices. You'll never see prices this low again in
your lifetime.

Cheers

[someKindofDrug]

It is never too late to start your Wilderness Survival Training, I am telling everyone this, because I know if anything happens that causes some major problems. I wont be stuck in the city.

[Oblivion]

Don't forget salt guys. It's cheaper than dirt but you will want allot of it for food preservation. SALT!

[TVCasualty]

I guess the jury is still out on this one.

We have some folks advocating snatching up affordable real estate (well, affordable to some; it's out of reach for most which is why it's "cheap" now) and others advocating stockpiling salt and learning wilderness survival.

Why not a middle ground where you snatch up rural land and stockpile salt and learn survival? Hedge your bets!

I own a little lot with a house on it on the outer edge of an urban area that's close to a lot of water and has abundant tasty wildlife, some of which hangs out in my yard by the salt block. So, if the economy rebounds I'll be doing ok. If it all goes straight to hell, I'll have a better chance of being ok than a lot of people.

And I took my wilderness survival classes years ago, and have even practiced the skills some. Remember this basic list: Shelter, Fire, Water, Food. Those are the essentials, in order of importance. Water used to come before fire, but now all the water is dirty and needs to be boiled so you have to make fire first. And when it comes to protein, it's a good idea to have learned all the illegal methods for hunting or trapping game (to be used only in a survival situation). They are illegal because they are too effective; fishing poles suck, fish spears are cake in comparison. Stalking deer with a bow and arrow can require immense patience and still fail, but multiple deer snares will keep you fed. Etc... (and if you get caught practicing your skills, the first thing you should say to the Game Warden is "Thank God you found me!" )

[Hippie3]

i gotta be blunt and honest-
you guys are deluding yourselves
if you think you can
live off the land
in this day and time.
camping gear is ok for a weekend
but come winter,
all they'll ever find is your bones.
i'd like to see some city boys
hiking 30 miles each way
in 100*+F heat
to bring home some food.
how many of you
have basic horse skills ?
how many can hook a draft team up
to a plow and plow up a couple acres ?
do you know what kind of hay to feed horses ?
know how to build and operate a horse-drawn wagon ?
who here has ever canned enough produce to last a year ?
how you gonna carry that around on foot ?
i'll offer some free advice-
it ain't nearly as easy as y'all think.
better get out in the rurals now
and start the long process of
turning a city boy into a homesteader.
because by the time you need the skills and equipment
it'll be too late.

[TVCasualty]

Agree 100%.

That's why I did all those things, well except for plowing with draft horses. But in a collapse context nobody's going to be plowing anyway. Stuff like that won't start up until after the dust has settled from a collapse, and by then only those capable of that kind of effort will be left. My first attempt at escaping snivelization began in 1996 and lasted until 2002, and those years completely rearranged my entire brain and it was not a very pleasant process (we quit electricity and running water cold turkey and only got water back when we learned how to tap a spring and divert it to a big basin far enough uphill from our place to provide pressure from gravity; that took almost a year).

The mega-canning projects is where I got all my mason jars!

[Hippie3]

assuming it's the right season
people damn well better plow-
collapse or not,
still gotta eat.
and you can't just walk out
into a field of waist-high weeds
and stick seeds in the ground.
my next major purchase
is going to be a tractor,
and it'll be 60-70 years old,
a FORD, 8N most likely.
easy to work on, cheap, reliable.
out here you gotta have
a tractor or horses-
no way around it.
you need it to move snow,
remove thatch, cut brush, plow, etc.
so you'll need some attachments
and a working PTO.
figure about $3 grand for a decent 8N.
oh yeah, a set of tires , that's another $800.

[Oblivion]

Breaking virgin ground without the aid of a plow is an eye opener to put it mildly. For those of us that will manage will have droves of people to fend off I suppose. Hunger is far from a concern. Man on the other hand weighs heavily on my brow. One must sleep....

[TVCasualty]

In a collapse, there will be no guarantee that you can stay put for any number of reasons, or that you can stay put all the way until harvest. Or that you will be the one who gets to eat it.

Most people will be desperate and ravenous; a few missed meals away from committing atrocities. Ultimately, they will eat each other as has happened in smaller scale events of a similar nature so if they come across a plowed and planted field well... That's what your stockpiled guns/man-traps/arrows are for but the people will come in waves (kind of like a zombie movie) until the vast majority have died, so that's a lot of 24/7 vigilance to maintain.

Also, there was no plowing going on in the Yukon, or the Northwest Territories, Alaska, etc. (among the indigenous peoples) but people have lived in that environment a long long time. It's a different skill set is all.

[Hippie3]

not too worried about people-
the crop is worthless until it's ripe-
pretty narrow window of opportunity.
instead i'd recruit them to help,
share-crop for work, lodging, food.
of course self-defense is important
but i don't expect open war with the locals,
and outsiders would not stand much of a chance
as they would be far from home, clueless.

[Hippie3]

it's not just a different skill set, TV
game was much more plentiful.
not so today.
you can spend all day in the woods
and never see anything worth eating.
traps also tie you down to a location,
and if you're on foot
that's not much of a range.
and you'll be doing well
to eat possum and coon,
not many beaver around anymore.

[TVCasualty]

Don't discount the threat posed by insane hordes with one last tank of gas.

And in some places, deer, rabbits, squirrels, and fish are plentiful. So are wild edible plants.

[Oblivion]

Ive been helping the neighbors put in gardens so they be closer to self sufficient. Together we might keep the hordes out.

[Hippie3]

you can't eat rabbit or squirrel in hot weather.
cf. deer fly fever.

most folks wouldn't know an edible plant
even if it bit them on the ass.

and think-
you got one last tank of gas-
where you gonna go ?
out in the middle of nowhere where houses are miles apart
or finish looting the city and 'burbs where most of the goodies are ???

[Oblivion]

True about the rabbit. Take all you can in the winter and make jerky.

[Om shanti]

I understand your fascination with being able to be self-sufficient, and to a large degree share it myself.

However, self-sufficiency is not just a way to survive if everything really breaks down, it's also a good recipe for actually causing whatever may be left of the economy in a serious crisis situation to completely collapse in the first place.

I hope people will communicate a bit with each other before choosing that option. :-)

[Hippie3]

and 'plentiful' is relative-
there's 'plenty' of game on this 137 acre farm,
deer, turkey, fish, rabbits, squirrel, raccoon, opossum, ducks, quail.
but not enough to feed 'hordes'
much more than lunch.
and factor in the time and effort needed to catch them,
well let's just say the 'horde' will be mighty hungry quick.

and of course this mob would be totally chaotic, unorganized.
and they'd have to first defeat the military/police/citizen militia
as we ain't talking about the Rapture here,
those folks will all still be here,
defending their home and county.

a 'horde' trying to come down a highway
would very quickly meet
some truly enormous farm machinery
like combines
that could not only block the road
but run right over their asses too.

then there's getting access to the bridges
across myriads of streams, creeks and rivers-
again very easily blocked.

hell, i could block off my area
in 1/2 hour with my chainsaw ,
just drop trees across the roads at vital spots.
lemme see your car get past that...

[eatyualive]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

it's not just a different skill set, TV
game was much more plentiful.
not so today.
you can spend all day in the woods
and never see anything worth eating.
traps also tie you down to a location,
and if you're on foot
that's not much of a range.
and you'll be doing well
to eat possum and coon,
not many beaver around anymore.

the georgia area is abundant with deer. they ask you to kill them every year because of overpopulation and nuisance. deer taste good. plenty of deer around that area.

[Hippie3]

enough to feed Atlanta ??
how long ?

see my point ?
you guys are basically talking
about an army feeding itself
off what can be gathered-
and there is a definite limit
to how many men can subsist
and how long
on the resources they can forage-
study the civil or napoleonic wars
for good examples of this limit,
and food was much more plentiful then.

not many small farmers today like there used to be-
many out here have no garden, no critters,
they came here to escape city life
but they never went rural,
just yuppies hiding on what used to be a farm.

[toadshroom]

I think everyone should begin buying books on edible plants/animals/bugs/etc. Material on how to grow, when to grow, etc. In reality though, I don't see a city boy lasting long at all if society collapses. Not just because most, if not all of them, don't know how to hunt, (and trophy hunting with a guide is not hunting!) but....what am i tryin to say?...city boys are weak. As Hank Jr. once sang...

I can plow a field all day long
I can catch catfish from dusk till dawn
We make our own whiskey and our own smoke too
Ain’t too many things these ole boys can’t do
We grow good ole tomatoes and homemade wine
And a country boy can survive
Country folks can survive

[Hippie3]

self-sufficiency is ...a good recipe for actually causing whatever may be left of the economy in a serious crisis situation to completely collapse in the first place.

i doubt
we, the people,
are to blame for
global economic collapse
but hey,
feel free to blame me
i'm still going to keep my critters and farm.
besides,
this life ain't cheap-
i've pumped at least $20,000
into the local economy
over this past year,
buying animal feed, lumber, equipment, tools, etc.
this county needs more like me.

[Om shanti]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

i doubt
we, the people,
are to blame for
global economic collapse
but hey,
feel free to blame me
i'm still going to keep my critters and farm.

I can accept that you must be self sufficient to make sure Mycotopia can be online no matter what state of anarchy may develop in the rest of the world. A small power supply and a few HAM modems and Mycotopia can be online even when the seven horsemen of the apocalypse come around. :-)

If everyone was self sufficient then I think it's obvious the economy would collapse. But I'm also doing many things myself, that I wouldn't like everybody else to do too. And if I had the money I might also get myself a farm and start plowing the fields. :-)

[Hippie3]

If everyone was self sufficient then I think it's obvious the economy would collapse.

for only two letters
IF is a mighty big word.
most folks are not capable,
even if they were willing.
which most are not.

[johnnydigital]

most folks wouldn't know an edible plant
even if it bit them on the ass.

LOL, so true... especially all the yupppies in the Dc area... omg, they'd be LOST... and not to mention dead from starvation or poisoning within 3 weeks.

[piggy69]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

enough to feed Atlanta ??
how long ?
see my point ?
you guys are basically talking
about an army feeding itself
off what can be gathered-
and there is a definite limit
to how many men can subsist
and how long
on the resources they can forage-
study the civil or napoleonic wars
for good examples of this limit,
and food was much more plentiful then.
not many small farmers today like there used to be-
many out here have no garden, no critters,
they came here to escape city life
but they never went rural,
just yuppies hiding on what used to be a farm.

Has any one thought about dealing with an army as well armed as your selves? Co operatives maybe?

[Om shanti]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

for only two letters
IF is a mighty big word.
most folks are not capable,
even if they were willing.
which most are not.

Certainly. What I meant with my original comment was a serious crisis situation.. If government and the entire money economy collapsed etc, the sort of scenario where you start thinking about defending yourself against hordes of people as mentioned before, and there might not be too many alternatives for survival to choose between. In that case I would hope that communication and division of labour would prevail over families or villages cutting themselves off. But that's purely hypothetical of course.

As you wrote in your second last comment, becoming self-sufficient with food is a big investment unless one wanted to live like a caveman. And most people (including you I would believe!?) do not aim to cut ties with the economy, but 'just' to be their own master. That is, to decide for one self exactly what one wants to produce and exchange with others instead of being forced to sell one's labour for a wage. I put 'just' in citation marks because it's not easy, but is a very worthwhile goal IMO.

[Oblivion]

Has any one thought about dealing with an army as well armed as your selves? Co operatives maybe?

These will start up in the inner cities. Never just one gang though. Not strictly evil intent either. These are the areas that the military will be deployed to restore peace. Law abiding citizens such as Om Shanti(no offence bro) will be whisked away to a 'refugee' camp where food, water, and shelter will be provided until things settle down in the city. Out in the country, it will be much different I feel. Moving from home to home will be risky because of the great distance between homesteads. For example, I can see a mile in all directions from the top of my house. Even farther if I climb one of my old oaks. I will see homes being ransacked long before they would ever get to me. I could even offer assistance to a neighbor 1/2 mile away from my rooftop.

[TVCasualty]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

enough to feed Atlanta ??
how long ?
see my point ?
you guys are basically talking
about an army feeding itself
off what can be gathered-
and there is a definite limit
to how many men can subsist
and how long
on the resources they can forage-
study the civil or napoleonic wars
for good examples of this limit,
and food was much more plentiful then.
not many small farmers today like there used to be-
many out here have no garden, no critters,
they came here to escape city life
but they never went rural,
just yuppies hiding on what used to be a farm.

My thoughts on this subject are very hard to put into words, but I'm trying.

I think most speculation about a post-collapse scenario is based on how things work in this pre-collapse context. There won't be any armies or militias or police. Police/military cohesion falls apart as soon as paychecks stop coming (and how to enforce rank? I wanna be platoon leader now and what're you gonna do about it, Sarge?), though many will probably band together and become some of the more well-armed gangs. There will be gangs with differing levels of ability or firepower and nothing more, and that phase will be short-lived.

But what an intense phase it will be! In the case of the Napoleonic Wars and modern smaller-scale equivalents, the armies or militias were/are organized and their foraging lasted as long as it did -which wasn't very long- because they entered territory that did not have it's own bands of foraging gangs heading in the opposite direction. Look what happened to their cohesion when the hit the limit of what they could procure... And even in Somalia which is as close to this scenario as anything existing right now, they feed off pirate ransoms, arms dealing, and other economic ventures, not to mention they're ruled by warlords. All of these factors are dependent upon a functioning civilization elsewhere that they can feed off of or derive their power from. Take that away and all bets are off; the whole world becomes the equivalent of a Chilean football team stranded in the Andes after their plane crashes. Yum, yum.

If all places erupt in the same chaos/scarcity, movement will be based on either being outgunned where you are or having inadequate resources where you are. And that will be everywhere for a short time at the beginning, so like with the mass-panic of a spooked crowd, the hordes will be scattering in all directions aimlessly (but ferociously). Entering territory with adequate resources means you will encounter those who got there first (or maybe you'll be the one in the nice spot others want to get to). Hoping the new arrivals will work with you instead of trying to kill you will be disappointing IMO.

Also, hunting and gathering vs. agriculture are different skill sets entirely. Many farmers don't know jack about the native wild edible plants in their areas (aka "weeds"), just that they're invading the crops. How many people know how to knap a blade, and what types of rock will work for that? Or how to twist cordage that can be used to make snares (the rest of it is carved with your knapped blade from sticks) or fire drills?

Traps anchor you to a place, but only for a very short time, and are a minimal investment of energy relative to the return compared to farming. Fleeing a trap line is not as big a loss as fleeing a plowed field just before harvest. If a miscalculation was made and someone had to flee just with the clothes on their back, I'd argue it's vastly more useful to know how to hunt and gather with no manmade tools than how to farm.

There I am, hiding in the bushes since a gang overran my neighborhood... Good thing I know how to knap a blade from an old beer bottle I found that I can use to carve some sticks and make a hand drill to start a fire with. I can twist some cordage so I can make some fish spears/snares/an atl-atl/whatever. I can sleep in a debris hut built with no tools that will keep me alive in subzero temperatures if I'm only dressed in a T-shirt. I can quietly walk my trap lines or fish weirs, gathering edible plants as I go if I don't catch anything. I know not to hunt certain animals in the warmer months, but those are the times the plants are plentiful. Etc etc. I have practiced all of these things, and they are really damned hard at first but fun (at least they're fun to practice while I can still go back home and get dinner out of the fridge instead of go hungry or die if I screw up). I'm not an accomplished badass with this stuff by any means, but I'm working on it and have friends who are expert (I'll be with them if it gets too crazy!).

Anyway, that's a tiny sample of what can be done by a naked person who has some knowledge. Agriculture cannot be done with knowledge alone, and there is no guarantee that we can carry anything with us when we may have to flee for our lives, so our knowledge is more important than our tools. Also consider how much faster someone carrying nothing can move, and where they can go relative to those hauling tons of "gear." If you can survive without manmade tools and technology, you can go to places that others cannot and those will be the only truly 'safe' places until the main eruption of chaos dies down (literally dies down). It ain't that pretty at all.

[Hippie3]

i don't buy it.
you misunderstand human psychology,
people don't, for the most part, throw out
a lifetime of civil indoctrination
even in a crisis.
only a very small percentage
would even attempt
what you envision,
and i suspect those folks would quickly
meet their end at the hands
of the people they sought to rob.
that 'naked barefoot man' in the bushes
in your fantasy
is utterly at the mercy of well-armed locals.
their odds of survival would be much higher
in the cities they are already familiar with.
and how many are
young enough,
strong enough,
unattached to wife/children
and have the skills ?
less than 1% is my guess.
for every naked guy in the bush
there'll be a dozen families in SUVs,
and when you're caring for children
a negotiated settlement beats open war.
there would be far more willing to help me
fend off the 'hordes'
than there would be predators capable of
taking me down on my own turf.
come on down
and lemme see you
live in the woods here.
my bet is a week in the heat
living with the bugs and snakes and coyotes
and you'd be singing a different tune.
how old are you now, btw ?

[Hippie3]

also
why on earth would one waste time/energy
making a stone knife
when every kitchen has several ?
economic collapse won't make all the goodies
disappear overnight.
there'll be plenty of guns and ammo,
enough to last years.
i have a generator so let the power company go under.
i can make my own fuel in my still,
and lamp oil from my pigs.
while you're running naked and barefoot thru the brush
with your broken pop bottle knife
i'll still be sitting in my AC
cleaning my guns.

[TVCasualty]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

that 'naked barefoot man' in the bushes
in your fantasy
is utterly at the mercy of well-armed locals.
their odds of survival would be much higher
in the cities they are already familiar with.
and how many are
young enough,
strong enough,
unattached to wife/children
and have the skills ?
less than 1% is my guess.

The naked man in the bushes thing happens all the time, somewhere. It might only last a little while, say until the Janjaweed finishes burning your village if you live in Darfur, or if your car slides off a hill in the mountains outside Boulder, CO in winter during a blizzard and you have to survive on your own for a few weeks until they find you.

Cities suck resources, they don't produce them, so the ability to live there will be very short-lived at best. I'm not sure we're even talking about the same thing; I'm looking at this as more like a post Hurricane Katrina type thing where the National Guard never shows up, but even that analogy falls short.

And your estimate of the numbers likely to survive (1% or so) is probably about right. Nope, not that pretty at all.

And a stone blade takes about one minute to knap from the bottom of a beer bottle. It's small, but sharper than any metal knife. You can secure a row of them to a deer's jawbone with a mixture of pine pitch and burned eggshells (which hardens as well as any store-bought epoxy) for a good serrated saw, etc. etc.. Larger rocks might take a few hours to knap into a serviceable blade that's much larger, if needed. You might take longer than that and expend more effort finding a kitchen that has a kitchen knife in it. And sure, use whatever handy tools you find (like beer bottles) but I'm just not assuming I would find those things whenever I may need them.

I've done the living in the woods thing in east Tennessee some years ago, and I do recall getting absolutely tore up with chiggers and mosquitoes, was stung or bitten by every type of wasp, ant, and hornet, got bit by a snake, almost shot by poaching rednecks, had no prob with the coyotes as they're cool, my shelter stayed a balmy 28℉ inside when it was 11℉ outside (coldest it got was 2℉, which was not bad; my gf and I could walk around outside naked -no shoes either- at that temp for about 4 minutes, and I could run full-speed over gravel roads barefoot. It took awhile to build up the callouses). I snared a few rabbits (in winter) among other hunting experiments, gathered wild plants and fungi to eat, and frankly it all drove me to the brink of clinical insanity even though I could drive 14 miles to a friends trailer to take a hot shower and watch the Weather Channel. That's what I mean when I talk about my "practice." Trying that without the recourse of retreating back to civilization would've pushed me over the edge which is why I advocate exploring it now while the living is easy. It is utterly amazing what the human body can acclimatize to, and if I could do it anyone could (coming originally from the 'burbs as I did). The real challenge is the mental aspect. One of the best trackers at the school I attended was a blind man, so attitude really is key.

Not that it's all that relevant, but I'm 38 give or take a few months. I've been taught a lot of neat stuff by people much, much younger and much, much older.

[Hippie3]

age's relevancy pertains to health,
at 38 you're past your prime,
to put it mildly.

[catdaddy]

Originally Posted by Hippie3

age's relevancy pertains to health,
at 38 you're past your prime,
to put it mildly.

BITE YER TONGUE!

I prefer to think of myself as a "well-cured and matured" sex machine.

I figger I'll survive by selling my body to rich old women.

Know any horny ones?

[Hippie3]

yeah,
but they all prefer hot young hard-bodies.
never have i heard one say
'fat bald old men make my motor hum'

[Hippie3]

Originally Posted by Oblivion

Don't forget salt guys. It's cheaper than dirt but you will want allot of it for food preservation. SALT!

good point.
do you know what a
salt lick is ?
where the nearest one might be found ?
i do...

[catdaddy]

I know where the nearest salt BLOCK is.... about 75 yards from my back door, in a clear line of sight...

[Hippie3]

not quite the same thing.
a salt block lasts a few months,
a salt lick - centuries.

[johnnydigital]

Best thing to do is to read up on what is edibe and what isn't... man can find all the nourishment he needs from what mother earth provides. Do that, find like minded people and brush up on your farming and engineering skills. Bicycles can make great motors too, short of an ethanol generator.

To be honest, I'm not that worried about it... society ain't collapsing anytime during my lifetime.... and if it does, I have enough canned food to last years.

[catdaddy]

When I was a Scout leader, I carried and used a Petersen's guide to wild edibles. I still find myself from time to time, picking something as I walk along, and chewing on it...

I simply LOVE common Plantain- it has a smoky mushroomy taste and makes a great salad, along with other seasonal greens...

I like Poke, cattails, and other wild stuff too- but I'd have to be really hungry to do the whole boil-it-twice routine except for demonstration purposes...

Damn, that makes me want to boil some poke shoots- as good as asparagus, IMHO.

[Hippie3]

my goats do that,
then i eat them.
better than dandelions too.

[Hippie3]

parenthetically-
y'all are funny.
'read up' is so
city.
get your hands and boots dirty-
learn more than all the books offer.